Forums of the Megaverse®

glitterboy2098 wrote:tanks in rifts range from weak to powerful.

if your worried about munchkinism.. i'd suggest looking at the M-48 refit by golden age weaponsmiths (it's in the original Mercenaries book)

it's armor and firepower is comparable to a Mountaineer ATV.. the players will have to be very careful in picking their fights and their use of tactics, because it can't just wade into a fight. however, unlike a Mountaineer ATV, it is an actual tank. an SDC one with some MDC plating bolted on, but a tank.
they'll need the rest of the party to help crew it (minimum crew of 3.. driver, gunner, loader. 4 in military service [commander]), and it runs on diesel so you'll need to pick up fuel every so often.

everloss wrote:That sounds pretty cool
If I remember correctly, the tank in Tank Girl was kind of like a dog, in that it followed simple commands, came when she whistled, etc.

You could easily say the tank has a simple artificial intelligence enabling it to follow some orders, but it can't really think or act on its own.

It's basically a really big and limited power armor.

IAmAGoat95 wrote:I'm a new GM to Rifts and Palladium in general and I'm not quite sure if I should cater to a particular PC's request. To make a long story short one of my players is a big fan of Tank Girl and would like to recreate the character as a Headhunter with a tank. At first my munchkin meter went off, but the more I think about it a tank isn't really any more dangerous than a hatchling dragon or a suit of power armor, especially when you factor in how lacking in mobility tanks generally are. Anyway, I'm basically just looking for some advice, a tank ain't too powerful, right? I'm prepared to blow the damn thing up and then give her a new one every other adventure in one way or another.

IAmAGoat95 wrote:I'm a new GM to Rifts and Palladium in general and I'm not quite sure if I should cater to a particular PC's request. To make a long story short one of my players is a big fan of Tank Girl and would like to recreate the character as a Headhunter with a tank. At first my munchkin meter went off, but the more I think about it a tank isn't really any more dangerous than a hatchling dragon or a suit of power armor, especially when you factor in how lacking in mobility tanks generally are. Anyway, I'm basically just looking for some advice, a tank ain't too powerful, right? I'm prepared to blow the damn thing up and then give her a new one every other adventure in one way or another.

glitterboy2098 wrote:.. i'd suggest looking at the M-48 refit by golden age weaponsmiths (it's in the original Mercenaries book)

Rayneth wrote:In my opinion, vehicles are inferior to robots and power armor, as they demand a greater number of crew with reduced terrain navigation ability for no inherent gain (such as penalties to hit it for a smaller profile, or more armor per square inch due to their more compact nature). With that said, there are a few I can recommend. The various Iron heart tanks are some of the finest earth made tanks, possessing excellent direct and indirect firepower and respectable armor plating right out of the factory. For the mercenary on a budget, you can't really go wrong with purchasing a GAW retrofitted Abrahms which comes at a steal at only 200 thousand credits!

For the innovative mercenary, there is always the option of fashioning your own death machine from one of the many vehicles offered around the world. I am a huge fan of designing my own equipment, as I tend to play operators and psi-techs a lot, so this is the route I typically take.

glitterboy2098 wrote: because at those higher speeds they are more likely to throw a track (where the tread part separates from the wheel parts) resulting in temporary severe reduction of mobility and the need for the crew to expose themselves to possible enemy fire as they reseat the track into place.. these governing devices can be disabled fairly easily, but few crews do it in real life because not only do they get in trouble for breaking regulations, but in combat it carries a higher risk..)

wyrmraker wrote:

Rayneth wrote:In my opinion, vehicles are inferior to robots and power armor, as they demand a greater number of crew with reduced terrain navigation ability for no inherent gain (such as penalties to hit it for a smaller profile, or more armor per square inch due to their more compact nature). With that said, there are a few I can recommend. The various Iron heart tanks are some of the finest earth made tanks, possessing excellent direct and indirect firepower and respectable armor plating right out of the factory. For the mercenary on a budget, you can't really go wrong with purchasing a GAW retrofitted Abrahms which comes at a steal at only 200 thousand credits!

For the innovative mercenary, there is always the option of fashioning your own death machine from one of the many vehicles offered around the world. I am a huge fan of designing my own equipment, as I tend to play operators and psi-techs a lot, so this is the route I typically take.

As a side note, I do disagree with vehicles being inferior to robots and powered armors. Sure, they need a crew, but each crew member can have their own Rate of Fire with a turret weapon; something that powered armors don't have. In addition, I believe that tanks are sorely under-represented in Rifts, and are largely given the short end of the stick in both armor and damage-dealing (I still say a 120mm APFDS round should do a lot more damage than a Boom Gun round). Given the setting, Robots and Powered Armors are given far more attention in Rifts than their predecessors.

Rayneth wrote:

That is true, but you are dedicating 4-5 men to a single vehicle, these 4-5 men could instead be wearing power armor with their own pool of actions. They are also not tied to a single main body M.D.C. and are far more able to do things like take cover and enter buildings.

.

taalismn wrote:

Rayneth wrote:

That is true, but you are dedicating 4-5 men to a single vehicle, these 4-5 men could instead be wearing power armor with their own pool of actions. They are also not tied to a single main body M.D.C. and are far more able to do things like take cover and enter buildings.

.

Both the Russians and the British tried experiments with multi-turret tanks, on the idea you could copy the configuration of naval vessels on a smaller scale. These tanks carried 2-4 secondary turrets, but the concept failed miserably because of a) the various turrets fouling each others' arcs of fire, and b) lack of coordination between the various turret crews.
The technology of the time also meant that the added mass of the extra turrets just to add a few more machine guns or light caliber cannon meant more complexity at the expense of less well-placed armor and a weaker main gun.
Now you MIGHT be able to get around that in Rifts using remote control turrets run from a central crew compartment, or have everybody cyberjacked into a tank-over LAN system(sort of a cyber-gestalt with a shared VR 'overall view') with the crews becoming fairly close as a result..but not everybody's into borderline transhuman mind gestalts. However, it could be incorporated into a particularly strange tech-enclave's signature technology or d-bee design.

RiftJunkie wrote:Nobody mentioned that "Wrath of God Destroyer" tank thingy out of Naruni Wave 2? There's a 1 person tank.


The GM giveth, the GM taketh away.......

guardiandashi wrote:

taalismn wrote:

Rayneth wrote:

That is true, but you are dedicating 4-5 men to a single vehicle, these 4-5 men could instead be wearing power armor with their own pool of actions. They are also not tied to a single main body M.D.C. and are far more able to do things like take cover and enter buildings.

.

Both the Russians and the British tried experiments with multi-turret tanks, on the idea you could copy the configuration of naval vessels on a smaller scale. These tanks carried 2-4 secondary turrets, but the concept failed miserably because of a) the various turrets fouling each others' arcs of fire, and b) lack of coordination between the various turret crews.
The technology of the time also meant that the added mass of the extra turrets just to add a few more machine guns or light caliber cannon meant more complexity at the expense of less well-placed armor and a weaker main gun.
Now you MIGHT be able to get around that in Rifts using remote control turrets run from a central crew compartment, or have everybody cyberjacked into a tank-over LAN system(sort of a cyber-gestalt with a shared VR 'overall view') with the crews becoming fairly close as a result..but not everybody's into borderline transhuman mind gestalts. However, it could be incorporated into a particularly strange tech-enclave's signature technology or d-bee design.

there are times when additional weapons emplacements on a tank might make sense, but with modern technology I don't believe it is usually worth it.

with that said in rifts I can it might make sense to a point, but it would usually be in "big" armor not in small units.

most of the modern examples I can think of offhand it really comes down to 1 primary gun (typically 100mm+ ) 1 (or more)coaxal lighter guns (usually machine guns for targets that aren't worth a main gun round) 1 or more anti-personnel weapons such as the top mounted machine gun, and occasionally hull mounted ones in addition) and then often "strap on" special case things mounted to the turret, like missiles, smoke, flare, and other dispensers, sometimes reactive or spaced armor, occasionally things like claymores (the mines not the swords) etc. but realize in most cases that addon stuff was added well after the design phase as "upgrades" or improvised counters to conditions not envisioned by the designers.

kaid wrote:One of the main things that prevents tanks from being OP baring some wacky ones like the world destroyer is in the rifts world the most common bane to tanks have increased in strength far more than tanks have. The bane of all tanks is infantry or things able to get up close and inside the weapon range where short of getting out of the tank there is not much a tank can do to them.

In rifts your infantry can potentially be magic users who can teleport/run at super speed/be nearly impossible to see so even in flat ground may not be able to engage at any range. Now add in supernatural strength melee attacks or power armor MDC melee attacks and you have a tankers nightmare. Stuff strong enough to close range on you even if you do see them and once they are on top of you there is almost nothing you can do to keep them from destroying your tank. This is mitigated when deployed in a squad of tanks but a single tank by itself has some serious tactical limitations.

Blue_Lion wrote:
Also NG sales a hover tank, so a tank does not need to be tracked. As I understand it tracks are used because they can go places and handle more load than wheeled vehicles. Tanks can be either using traditional fuels, magical or even nuclear power plants.)

In theory you could make a 1 man tank with simple AI you can look in source book 1 for cost. But I would place mdc and damage at about the levels of a heavy PA or light robot.

wyrmraker wrote:

kaid wrote:One of the main things that prevents tanks from being OP baring some wacky ones like the world destroyer is in the rifts world the most common bane to tanks have increased in strength far more than tanks have. The bane of all tanks is infantry or things able to get up close and inside the weapon range where short of getting out of the tank there is not much a tank can do to them.

In rifts your infantry can potentially be magic users who can teleport/run at super speed/be nearly impossible to see so even in flat ground may not be able to engage at any range. Now add in supernatural strength melee attacks or power armor MDC melee attacks and you have a tankers nightmare. Stuff strong enough to close range on you even if you do see them and once they are on top of you there is almost nothing you can do to keep them from destroying your tank. This is mitigated when deployed in a squad of tanks but a single tank by itself has some serious tactical limitations.

All that you say is true, but not merely for tanks. Any ground-based armor system has that limitation. Powered armors, robots, cyborgs, all of them have their tactical limitations. And to be honest, their only limitations are in their application. If someone uses their gear foolishly, they'll usually end up without it in short order. If they use it wisely, they should be able to keep ahold of it long enough to be able to upgrade it as well as live to fight another day.

kaid wrote:

wyrmraker wrote:

kaid wrote:One of the main things that prevents tanks from being OP baring some wacky ones like the world destroyer is in the rifts world the most common bane to tanks have increased in strength far more than tanks have. The bane of all tanks is infantry or things able to get up close and inside the weapon range where short of getting out of the tank there is not much a tank can do to them.

In rifts your infantry can potentially be magic users who can teleport/run at super speed/be nearly impossible to see so even in flat ground may not be able to engage at any range. Now add in supernatural strength melee attacks or power armor MDC melee attacks and you have a tankers nightmare. Stuff strong enough to close range on you even if you do see them and once they are on top of you there is almost nothing you can do to keep them from destroying your tank. This is mitigated when deployed in a squad of tanks but a single tank by itself has some serious tactical limitations.

All that you say is true, but not merely for tanks. Any ground-based armor system has that limitation. Powered armors, robots, cyborgs, all of them have their tactical limitations. And to be honest, their only limitations are in their application. If someone uses their gear foolishly, they'll usually end up without it in short order. If they use it wisely, they should be able to keep ahold of it long enough to be able to upgrade it as well as live to fight another day.

The advantage of power armor/robot vehicles is because most of them have arms and legs it is far more difficult to close distance with one and then simply latch on and be unhittable. Not impossible but far harder than tanks. Power armor is probably the least vulnerable to those tactics simply due to their size means fewer dead spots or areas were somebody could latch on and strike it with impunity. Robot vehicles have more blind spots but if you are latched onto the back of a robot vehicle they have the chance to simply roll over you and stand back up. A tank if you have somebody latched onto you are likely screwed. It is typically impossible to bring the main cannon to bear on something that close and for many the secondary weapon systems may require you to open a hatch to utilize which is SERIOUSLY dangerous as now the armor is effectively breached and the vulnerable crew is open to attack.

Tanks though tend to be FAR cheaper than robot vehicles even if you get a nice hover tank and the gas powered ones are often power armor or less in price which gives you a pretty serious offensive punch and decent defenses for the cost. The fact that they can hold extra people is not a huge issue often in a party you will have a number of folks who won't start with vehicles so it can be a nice party vehicle and gives people like rogue scholars/medics/operators some fire power to play with in situations where heavy combat is required.

Blue_Lion wrote:True fully I do not know of any one that has ever successfully swarmed a modern main battle tank to destroy it in real life. To a supernatural creature that has good MD strikes the weak hand to hand damage of PA is fairly non threating. Shure it can fight in hand to hand but at a very limited capacity. Its main damage is ranged weapons. If most PA is fighting at hand to hand with any siginificcant supernatural threat the PA has lost.

IAmAGoat95 wrote:I'm a new GM to Rifts and Palladium in general and I'm not quite sure if I should cater to a particular PC's request. To make a long story short one of my players is a big fan of Tank Girl and would like to recreate the character as a Headhunter with a tank. At first my munchkin meter went off, but the more I think about it a tank isn't really any more dangerous than a hatchling dragon or a suit of power armor, especially when you factor in how lacking in mobility tanks generally are. Anyway, I'm basically just looking for some advice, a tank ain't too powerful, right? I'm prepared to blow the damn thing up and then give her a new one every other adventure in one way or another.

IAmAGoat95 wrote:I'm a new GM to Rifts and Palladium in general and I'm not quite sure if I should cater to a particular PC's request. To make a long story short one of my players is a big fan of Tank Girl and would like to recreate the character as a Headhunter with a tank. At first my munchkin meter went off, but the more I think about it a tank isn't really any more dangerous than a hatchling dragon or a suit of power armor, especially when you factor in how lacking in mobility tanks generally are. Anyway, I'm basically just looking for some advice, a tank ain't too powerful, right? I'm prepared to blow the damn thing up and then give her a new one every other adventure in one way or another.

I'd say, go with it. Sounds like a good bit of fun. Start her out with something simple, like the Carnivore Mk I Light Hover Tank. It does boomgun damage at less than half the boomgun's range, and only has 400 MDC main body. I would definitely allow many modifications to such a vehicle (especially Naruni energy shields) or TW enhancements if there's a TW in the group, and other mods to give it that Tank Girl feel. (personally I'd also let her get a robot pilot for the thing, so she can be the gunner and have a bit more fun with it. My recommendation would be the Triax DV-12 Dyna-bot.) The Carnivore is in Mercenaries, P 130-131. The Triax DV-12 Dyna-Bot Labor Drone is in Rifts Sourcebook 1 Revised, p 46-48.