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Ok, so I get that you need to go up in level to grow your Light Gore Cannon into a Medium Gore Cannon. Also, that you need to advance in level further to grow/upgrade to Mega or Omni or whatever.

My question is: What about Enhancements that don't alter anything but have prerequisites?

What about the Heat Projector Cannon? It requires Heat Resistance but does not replace it. Can you get a Heat Projector Cannon at level 1, or does it have to wait until level 2?

How about Symbiotic Nourishment? It needs Enhanced Neurological Connections. Once again, you need ENC but SN in no way alters it. Can you get them at the same time?

Or, there's the Omega Blaster. It needs Enhanced Neurological Connections and Heat Resistance. Both ENC and HR can be bought with Bio-E at level 1. Does that mean there are no level 1 Omega's out there?

Edit: Also, how about Regeneration: Enhanced? Host Armor "starts" with Regeneration: Basic (the prerequisite for enhanced). Since it's "fresh out of the vat", should the HA have to wait until level 2 to get Enhanced?

Actually the leveling up at starting I believe is just spending the points for the prerequisites. So you can get the heaviest upgraded gore cannon at level 1 but you have to have the BIO-E to spend to buy all the stages.

Its basically so you cannot just skip right to the top level without paying for the lower items.

So for the heat cannon you should be able to get it at level 1 as long as you first allot BIO-E points to purchase the for the needed heat resistance.

The main thing to keep in mind if you go for maxed upgraded features right off the bat you will wind up with one really powerful ability at the cost of diversity and if that one gun gets taken out you may be up a creek.

kaid wrote:Actually the leveling up at starting I believe is just spending the points for the prerequisites. So you can get the heaviest upgraded gore cannon at level 1 but you have to have the BIO-E to spend to buy all the stages.

Its basically so you cannot just skip right to the top level without paying for the lower items.

So for the heat cannon you should be able to get it at level 1 as long as you first allot BIO-E points to purchase the for the needed heat resistance.

The main thing to keep in mind if you go for maxed upgraded features right off the bat you will wind up with one really powerful ability at the cost of diversity and if that one gun gets taken out you may be up a creek.

no, it's pretty clearly stated to limit you to one upgrade per level.

my personal opinion:

prerequisites that are not altered must still be placed on the (host armour/war mount/living body armour/etc) at level 1, then you must wait until level 2 to include the new upgrade (you're not altering it's basic function, but you are tying it in to the new system and extending it to perform functions within that new system also). note that level 2 comes fairly quickly in palladium systems, so that isn't a huge wait... i view it partly also as the great house not wanting to give their most impressive weapons to a total rookie who hasn't proven themselves yet.

having said that, in my opinion it is *possible* for those steps to be skipped... just more difficult. consider, for example, the zephyr warmount. it starts off with two fully-upgraded spore dischargers (fire-linked, no less) and a heat projector. it doesn't have those things given for free as the outrider gains levels, it just has those things from day 1. obviously the tech exists to bypass the level restriction. i would presume it's just a lot more difficult (alternately, it might only be possible for warmounts because they're basically created from scratch without needing to match a specific human).

for enhanced regeneration, i'd allow you to buy it at level 1. the basic regeneration is part of the unmodified suit.

YMMV, but that's how i view it.

Personally I just have a growth cycle that is independent of the leveling system that is in turn modified by the regeneration rate. Seems to work well...

Bah you are right I misread how that worked although I think the heat vent may still be doable at level one as it requires you to have heat resistance but is not growing out of it like the gore cannons or other weapons that upgrade in stages.

Prerequisites must be purchased at previous levels. Sorry.

The Galactus Kid wrote:Prerequisites must be purchased at previous levels. Sorry.

though, of course, your group is certainly free to modify the game to fit whatever they want.

that said, it makes a lot of sense for the best soldiers (ie more experienced) to have the best gear. having to grow your gear over time tends to make that happen; the guy who gets the heat projector is the guy who's been in a few fights and won't freeze up, getting himself and his expensive host armour killed because they spent those resources on him instead of on the experienced guy who is an expert marksman and more importantly has experience in making decisions that don't get the entire squad killed.

you put the best equipment on the troops that have the skills to make the most effective use of them.

The one odd thing that although it states war mounts work upgrading like host armor does most of the warmounts have one or more things that break the listed upgrade rules. I think that may be one reason my brain was thinking it just was you having to buy the prereqs.

Riftjunkie are you running or playing?

kaid wrote:The one odd thing that although it states war mounts work upgrading like host armor does most of the warmounts have one or more things that break the listed upgrade rules. I think that may be one reason my brain was thinking it just was you having to buy the prereqs.

yeah, i did acknowledge that, and obviously it is to some extent possible to make something that has prerequisites built into a starting biotech creation. perhaps there's something about the warmounts that makes it possible, perhaps it's just terribly expensive, or perhaps it would require that the human pilot be modified in ways that would make them seem non-human (the reason given for the delay is that the human must adapt to the stress on their system before they can handle more). maybe the creatures actually are level 4 or something like that for all intents and purposes.

but in any event, the same technique either cannot be or is not used for host armour (or living armour for that matter).

It may also just be an artifact of warmounts taking longer to gestate to maturity for use and what you are getting is a young mature warmount which had longer time for all its bits to grow than host armor is getting.

In the end it is a game device to make you wait to get to play what you wanted to be playing all along. If you have the points and buy the required systems you should be able to start with it.

why? it feels like that would take away from the feeling of progression. the first few levels in palladium games don't take very long anyways, and the only things you can add that take more than level 2 to add on cap out at level 4, and the 3 stages leading up to the final one are all basically the same thing just not quite as good so you actually do have the thing you want... and you just need to make it a bit stronger.

Shark_Force wrote:why? it feels like that would take away from the feeling of progression. the first few levels in palladium games don't take very long anyways, and the only things you can add that take more than level 2 to add on cap out at level 4, and the 3 stages leading up to the final one are all basically the same thing just not quite as good so you actually do have the thing you want... and you just need to make it a bit stronger.

you say that now but when your 7th level splicer pilot just lost his kitted out host armor due to a string of **** rolls those levels needed are starting to look long and far between.

fair enough, replacement gear (provided it wasn't lost stupidly) should be improved more quickly i'd agree. either being something that takes a few months instead of waiting for you to gain a level, and letting you do that 2-3 times, or perhaps even letting the person go back to level 1 (keep all skills etc at higher level, and they don't advance until you get past your old level).

I think the Warmounts get away with "breaking the rules" by having a gestation period and another period before they reach maturity. It seems to read that the Host Armor gets used straight from the pool. Just my thoughts on it.

boxee wrote:Riftjunkie are you running or playing?

boxee,
Unfortunately, neither. I seem to be a geographical hermit. Years ago there were plenty of people to game with, but we all were reassigned/moved in a trickle effect. I'm not finding anybody here with interest/time to game. The Magic card game and online shooter games seem to be the only ticket in town.

So, I go through my books and roll up characters and imagine the setting and "wargame" the possibilities. One day, I'll get to start a game or find one to join.

Shark_Force wrote:why? it feels like that would take away from the feeling of progression. the first few levels in palladium games don't take very long anyways, and the only things you can add that take more than level 2 to add on cap out at level 4, and the 3 stages leading up to the final one are all basically the same thing just not quite as good so you actually do have the thing you want... and you just need to make it a bit stronger.

Why make people wait to play what they want to play? If they have the points I say let it rip. There will be other stuff they can get as the game goes on. This is not saying give them 1000 bio-e points, it is saying let them use the points they first roll up. Not saying let them skip prereqs, just let them buy them if they have enough points.
Also note that not every gamemaster is going to freely level you up. It can take 4+ sessions to get to level 2, and thats JUST level 2. And then you have to wait to get the upgrades grown, so maybe your without your host armor for a session.
As for progression your skills will go up you will learn new skills, that is progression.
I greatly respect you Shark_Force and this is not meant as an attack on you in any way, I just see things differently.

RiftJunkie wrote:I think the Warmounts get away with "breaking the rules" by having a gestation period and another period before they reach maturity. It seems to read that the Host Armor gets used straight from the pool. Just my thoughts on it.

boxee wrote:Riftjunkie are you running or playing?

boxee,
Unfortunately, neither. I seem to be a geographical hermit. Years ago there were plenty of people to game with, but we all were reassigned/moved in a trickle effect. I'm not finding anybody here with interest/time to game. The Magic card game and online shooter games seem to be the only ticket in town.

So, I go through my books and roll up characters and imagine the setting and "wargame" the possibilities. One day, I'll get to start a game or find one to join.

Yea I am in the same boat currently so I feel your pain.