Forums of the Megaverse®

Situation:

Valkarie 1 and 2 are in close formation. Valkarie one is attacked and receives 4 damage from a main gun and 2 damage from another weapon from a single Regult (that used focus fire). Can Valk 1 share half damage from both attacks or just one?

I understand that Valk 2 can only block once per turn, but is it one attack weapon or one mecha's set of attacks?

It is treated as two separate attacks. He would only be allowed to share damage with one of those hits, per turn. If you had three valks in close formation, the third could take half of the other hit.

Phaze wrote:It is treated as two separate attacks. He would only be allowed to share damage with one of those hits, per turn. If you had three valks in close formation, the third could take half of the other hit.

Cool. Thats the way I've been playing it, just wanted to be sure.

Interesting. I'll need to go back and look at the rules as I've been considering anything one unique mecha (or close formation group) fires as an "attack". I don't think anyone in our group has considered different weapons from the same mecha as a different attack.

Hi Phaze,

I think this opens into an interesting discussion that I can't find covered in the rules. The rules provide several examples where a mecha is hit by, or is firing, only one weapon system. There are no examples or wording that covers multiple instances.

For example : a Regult is hit by the GAU and head laser from a Valk. Is that considered one attack since it comes from the same Valk? Or is it considered two attacks since it comes from two weapons? If two attacks, do you then have to spend command points twice to try and Dodge? And spend Command points twice to try and roll with impact? And have two other mecha in close formation to try and share the MD? And what if you are hit by a missile and a non-missile weapon? If two attacks that seems to imply you can try and shoot down the missiles and then Dodge the non-missile strike. Can you check to see what the rule should be in this case? In short : is an "attack" defined by the mecha, or by the number of weapons being fired at a target?

As an aside, the group here has interpreted the rule to mean that anything fired from one mecha becomes one attack for all purposes, with an end result of the MD being essentially totaled before Rolling with Impact and sharing in Close formation.

Thanks!

Pete

I think the rules were clear about dodges and roll with impact being weapon by weapon. It was only the split damage where it was fuzzy. I do wonder if your groups interpretation might be more streamlined. The counter argument is that if I have to spend an extra command point to shoot an extra weapon, then the target shouldn't be able to dodge both attacks with a single command point.

It becomes a procedure for us. 1. Choose attacker and target(s) 2. declare and pay for extra weapons 3. Roll to hit. 4. target declares which md's he wishes to dodge and rolls. 5. target declares shared damage from failed dodges 6. Any units that received damage may pay to roll with impact.

Additionally, I use little explosion markers to mark which mecha have already shared damage for the turn.

I can see what you are saying in terms of linking paying to fire more weapons hence the need to pay to Dodge. I guess the only imbalance there would be the number of mecha that can fire a weapon for free under certain circumstances and there really being nothing that allows a free Dodge.

PATACK wrote:Interesting. I'll need to go back and look at the rules as I've been considering anything one unique mecha (or close formation group) fires as an "attack". I don't think anyone in our group has considered different weapons from the same mecha as a different attack.

I think if a mecha splits its fire between two targets, that's one attack against each target, for sure.

I can't imagine how one mecha fires multiple systems at one target and that's not one attack. I agree.

The way we've been playing it so far is no matter how much you pile into an attack against one target—even from a group (because it's all resolved simultaneously), that's one attack.

If multiple weapons from one (or more, if a group of) mecha against another one = multiple attacks... ugh. This game has more than enough wristage and hair-splitting (for me) as it is.

Attacks are considered for EACH Weapon. Not each unit. Each weapon has a roll to hit. Multiple weapons are multiple attacks.

Page 16 under Choose a weapon system. "When a Mecha attacks, it picks one of these weapon systems with which to attack." Followed later by: " For each additional Command Point spent, the attacker may attack with one more of its weapon systems."

Notice it did not say "may add to his attack" but clearly stated that he "may attack" indicating an additional attack, not a combined attack.

Split damage in the close formation rules state that it is an attack, not attacks that can be split. Even the example has a GU-11 Gunpod (that has Rapid fire) using 1 attack and the damage split, not multiple attacks.

So an attack is from one shot from each weapon system. Multiple shots from the same weapon systems still counts as multiple attacks. All get dodged and roll with impact, and split damage independently.

I get what you are saying, Phaze, and can follow the line of reasoning. But I'm start to get that "death by a thousand cuts" feeling with these rules. Seems lots and lots of stuff is not covered, not covered in a clear manner, is left open for interpretation, or seems to add time overhead for no real return on investment.

I almost wish I could go to the open house to meet the guy who will be there that helped write these rules! One question : "Why?".

Is there a complex example from an official source that walks through a case of where a mecha rolls multiple times for Dodging from being struck multiple times by the attack of one (or more, if they're in a group) mecha?

I clearly see that a mecha usually needs to spend one CP for each additional when he rolls to attack—barring freebies from Focus Fire, Esprit de Corp, etc. What I'm not seeing is a passage stating where a defending mecha needs to spend multiple CPs to make Dodge, Roll with Impact for each weapon that strikes it in one attack.

We've been spending CPs for additional weapons fired by a mecha (one, or more if in a group) against a mecha, but not additional CPs to make Dodge rolls for each weapon that strikes a mecha defending against an attack.

The rules seems to go through some effort to differentiate between an attack and a strike. An attack is an attempt to strike with one or more weapons. Weapons that hit their target in an attack have struck it. The rules say you need to spend a CP to Dodge a strike. It's not clear (to me) that that means for each weapon or for all weapons in one attack.

We (the tables I play on) have been generous in allowing a defenders to spend just one CP to attempt to Dodge the weapons that strike it in an attack. They make one roll and anything they don't beat gets in to do damage to the target.

Maybe the idea is that you wear away the CPs of a defender with trying to force them to spend multiple CPs against multiple striking weapons. I think, in the long run, that favors the UEDF, since they have a better capacity to absorb damage from strikes than Zent mecha

Roll with the Impact seems simple enough. You total all the damage from an attack and then you can spend a CP to halve it.

UEDF VF-1 fires GU-11 at Malcontent VF-1: Roll one die, it is one attack. Malcontent can dodge with one die/roll with one CP.
UEDF fires GU-11 twice at Malcontent: Roll two dice, it is two attacks (correct?). Malcontent has to dodge and/or RWI twice (correct?).
If the above line is not correct- does malcontent roll to dodge once, comparing the results against each attack roll independently? So a single die roll is your 'attempt to dodge' and it might be good enough to dodge some attacks but not all? Is there a different proposed alternative?

On page 17, first paragraph, regarding RWI: 'Note: this can only be done once per attack. While Rolling with Impact doesn't allow a mecha to avoid all of the incoming damage..." That seems to imply that each weapon system (or die roll, if you prefer) is treated differently. So, avoiding verbiage such as strike and attack (which seem to be used the same way at different times) I am of the opinion that you should concentrate on number of times you roll dice. Every roll of dice on offense requires a roll of dice (or CP expenditure if you RWI) on defense. Missile volleys are the exception as you can avoid the entire volley with one dodge.

Out of curiosity: Did anyone here participate in the 'official' tournament in Chicago to know how it was ruled? How about anyone scheduled to adjudicate any of the upcoming tournaments? I was able to play with Carmen at Gencon two years ago but the rules were not final at that point and there were a lot of people coming and going so I honestly don't know what we did there (or if it even came up).

mrwrightkkpsi wrote:UEDF fires GU-11 twice at Malcontent: Roll two dice, it is two attacks (correct?). Malcontent has to dodge and/or RWI twice (correct?).

Correct.

mrwrightkkpsi wrote:On page 17, first paragraph, regarding RWI: 'Note: this can only be done once per attack. While Rolling with Impact doesn't allow a mecha to avoid all of the incoming damage..." That seems to imply that each weapon system (or die roll, if you prefer) is treated differently. So, avoiding verbiage such as strike and attack (which seem to be used the same way at different times) I am of the opinion that you should concentrate on number of times you roll dice. Every roll of dice on offense requires a roll of dice (or CP expenditure if you RWI) on defense. Missile volleys are the exception as you can avoid the entire volley with one dodge.

Yes... and correct.

mrwrightkkpsi wrote:Out of curiosity: Did anyone here participate in the 'official' tournament in Chicago to know how it was ruled? How about anyone scheduled to adjudicate any of the upcoming tournaments? I was able to play with Carmen at Gencon two years ago but the rules were not final at that point and there were a lot of people coming and going so I honestly don't know what we did there (or if it even came up).

Then you and I probably battled at Carmen's table. I have been in the rule set since then and answer questions concerning the rules on a semi official basis on Palladium's behalf for the last few months. I take questions like these to Palladium and we have a discussion with the creators to get things like this answered, and I report out on the boards with the answers. I am an MA Coordinator and the Tournament Organizer for the tournament at this years Open House is just over a week from now. Are you playing in the tourney?

semi official basis on Palladium's behalf

I have the utmost respect for the water you are carrying for PB, but this can't keep going on. Tell PB to get off their ass and make rules decisions OFFICIAL. Or have them make YOU the official guy.

I take questions like these to Palladium and we have a discussion with the creators to get things like this answered,

Assuming they feel it necessary, are they going to weigh in (officially) on the Beast called Blast? I know in the giant thread on here you said you'd talk to them about it last month.

I am an MA Coordinator and the Tournament Organizer for the tournament at this years Open House

Very cool. Good luck and I hope it is a fun event! Looking forward to seeing the feedback on how it played out and what kinds of rules questions and situations came up.

Since Carmen seems to be one of the Special Guests at the Open House, it seems a great opportunity for a Coffee Talk :

Special Event: Robotech® RPG Tactics™ games galore. Some run by Carmen Bellaire, the co-author of the RRT rules.

PATACK wrote:I have the utmost respect for the water you are carrying for PB, but this can't keep going on. Tell PB to get off their ass and make rules decisions OFFICIAL. Or have them make YOU the official guy.

If I say that this is how it is played, its official, only because it has been discussed with Palladium and answered. I am the messenger for rules decisions.

There are rules that I disagree with, but I only pass on the 'Official' stance on any rule. I give my opinion on a rule only when asked by PB. I try to be as unbiased as possible so when I post an answer, its directly from PB. There are instances where the answer to a question has already been answered in previous discussions with PB, so I don't bother going back to PB to answer them again.

PATACK wrote:Assuming they feel it necessary, are they going to weigh in (officially) on the Beast called Blast? I know in the giant thread on here you said you'd talk to them about it last month.

As of now, they did weigh in and the Official stance is the FAQ response. We have discussed the ramifications of the rule since that time, but nothing has changed at the moment. The rule will possibly change in the coming months. EDIT: Also there will be no rules changes until after the open house. We can't change the rules just before everyone is about to hit the tables with armies.

WARNING! PERSONAL OPINION FOLLOWS: I do think there is an issue with the Blast rules. There are many options right now on the table to correct it, some IMHO are really good alternatives and have been discussed with other MAs and players. It will be a big topic of discussion when I nail down everyone at the open house. PERSONAL OPINION CEASES.

Okay, if I understand it right:

• A mecha defending against enemy mecha that is struck by one or more weapon systems at once can spend 1CP per weapon system to Dodge them. The defending mecha may choose which weapon systems that struck it to Dodge—all, some, or none.

Meaning/for example: if an attacking mecha spends 3CPs to attack a defending mecha with three different weapon systems and each one strikes the target mecha (successfully rolls to "meet or beat" the defending armor value of the defending mecha after all modifications have been factored), the defending mecha may spend CPs to Dodge at a cost of 1CP per weapon that struck. Any weapon system which struck that the defending mecha decides not to Dodge will deliver MD to it. (This would also apply if instead a group of three mecha in Close Formation were firing one weapon system apiece to attack a target mecha, for example.)

• Only one Dodge attempt may be made for each weapon system that struck. A Dodge against a missile system that struck is made against the best Strike roll of the all the missiles that successfully struck.

• Any Dodge roll that succeeds (rolls to meet or beat the attacker's Strike roll after all modifications have been factored) will avoid all MD from the strike of that weapon system.

• Any Dodge roll that fails (rolls below the attacker's Strike roll after all modifications have been factored), or is not made, will cause the defending mecha to receive MD from the strike of that weapon system.

• A friendly mecha within 2" (Close Formation distance) of the defending mecha may now (after Dodging, but before Rolling with the Impact) shield it to share the MD received by the defending mecha. A friendly mecha may only shield a defending mecha once per turn in this way and may only shield a strike from one weapon system.

• The defending mecha may next spend 1CP for each weapon system that struck and was not Dodged to Roll with the Impact. For each CP spent to Roll with the Impact for a particular weapon system that struck, the MD the defending mecha will receive will be halved to a minimum of 1MD. The defending mecha may choose which weapon systems that struck to Roll with the Impact—all, some, or none.

• A friendly mecha that shielded a defending mecha to take half the MD from a weapon system that struck may spend 1CP to Roll with the Impact for the damage shared out to it to a minimum of 1MD.

• Only one Roll with the Impact may be made for each weapon system that strikes and was not Dodged by the defending mecha.

• A weapon system that strikes and was not: Dodged; shared out to a friendly mecha shielding at Close Formation distance, nor Rolled with the Impact will deliver full MD to the defending mecha.

Is all that right? Darn close? Tell me my missteps!

Wow! I'm glad I opened up this discussion. I agree with the official/Phaze interpretations. At first I was a littel leary of all the work to do for attacks dodges etc. To hit, dodge, block, roll with impact etc. It takes some time, but gets faster. One thing I try to remember is that this is a mecha skirmish game. It his not mass group die rolls like 40k/fow and others. I find it refreshing to be playing a different concept of rules. Budgeting the command points is a big part of the game; defense vs attack vs movement. I agree with the "death by a thousand cuts" comment as when you start taking multiple damage on a single model. With practice, it plays faster. I'm playing 300 point games against my 8 year old in about an hour or so.

I've found I don't waste time on dodges and stuff with regults that are eligible for re-entry. Stuff is going to blow up (and needs to) especially if the game is 4-5 turns. That is Robotech. Lots of stuff blows up.

Thanks for the clarification on your role, Phaze.

WARNING! PERSONAL OPINION FOLLOWS

Haha. Naturally I'm going to spread this comment, attributed to you, all over the interwebs, but without the warning!


---

I think you are on the right track, Brady. Seems everything is broken down to the lowest level : that of the individual weapon system. I'd need to stare at the rule for group firing to see how this fits in, just so I can be sure it is clear to me next time we hit the table.

I think the impact becomes a (slight?) increase in time to separate and manage the Strike and corresponding response (Dodge, Roll with Impact, etc...) rolls. This would seem to reinforce the 'cluster' defense of the Zents. Which makes a great Blast target!

True, taking a 'pod off the table for such a fragile machine to save the CP now seems like an easy call. Problem, any 'pod you bring back goes 2" (a base width) in from the friendly board edge (which is from the table edge, as I understand. Probably getting that wrong too and it's supposed to be 2" forward from the leading edge of the deployment zone.) Your Glaug and Quel Regult are way ahead of them. The respawns have catching up to do. Will you spend more CPs to boost them? Eventually you'll see that it's a treadmill until you Glaug(s) are eliminated.

Close Formation, Blast, and now spending CPs to Dodge "attacks." Three big things that required us to go on-line to get the skinny about because how they are written and how they are intended are two different things.

If it were just me and my primary opponent scratching our heads about it, we'd just be in error and move on. Pete and I are part of a group of a half-dozen players with rulebooks and finished models simply trying to play the game the right way. And despite our best efforts and many games, that isn't happening.

I don't think it's a lot to ask that the rules mean what they say with both simple and comprehensive examples to support them.

I was at the Chicago tournament and am friends with the organizer. Many of the players, including myself, were playing their first games, so the organizer encouraged the players to work out their own interpretation of the rules and see how they worked. Kevin from PB was there and spent time talking to all of the players about the game trying to get feedback.

In truth, I played three great games but each game was slightly different. After the tourney I started reviewing the website and Phaze's FAQ. I think I have a better grasp of the rules now.

I know there has been a lot of PB bashing, but my impression from my contact at Adepticon was that they are dedicated to this product. It's new territory for them, but they are working through it. Kevin talked to myself and others individually for quite a bit. He addressed the group during the awards ceremony and took questions.

BradyTech wrote:• A mecha defending against enemy mecha that is struck by one or more weapon systems at once can spend 1CP per weapon system to Dodge them. The defending mecha may choose which weapon systems that struck it to Dodge—all, some, or none.

Yes.

BradyTech wrote:• Only one Dodge attempt may be made for each weapon system that struck. A Dodge against a missile system that struck is made against the best Strike roll of the all the missiles that successfully struck.

Yes, again.

BradyTech wrote:• Only one Dodge attempt may be made for each weapon system that struck. A Dodge against a missile system that struck is made against the best Strike roll of the all the missiles that successfully struck.

• Any Dodge roll that succeeds (rolls to meet or beat the attacker's Strike roll after all modifications have been factored) will avoid all MD from the strike of that weapon system.

• Any Dodge roll that fails (rolls below the attacker's Strike roll after all modifications have been factored), or is not made, will cause the defending mecha to receive MD from the strike of that weapon system.

Yes, Yes, and Yes.

BradyTech wrote:• A friendly mecha within 2" (Close Formation distance) of the defending mecha may now (after Dodging, but before Rolling with the Impact) shield it to share the MD received by the defending mecha. A friendly mecha may only shield a defending mecha once per turn in this way and may only shield a strike from one weapon system.

I think he's got it!

BradyTech wrote:• The defending mecha may next spend 1CP for each weapon system that struck and was not Dodged to Roll with the Impact. For each CP spent to Roll with the Impact for a particular weapon system that struck, the MD the defending mecha will receive will be halved to a minimum of 1MD. The defending mecha may choose which weapon systems that struck to Roll with the Impact—all, some, or none.

A little confusing. You can always Dodge AND Roll with Impact. Each costs a CP. You can't attempt to shot down missile and Dodge, but you can always Dodge and Roll with Impact. Your first sentence should read: The defending mecha may next spend 1CP for each weapon system that struck and the Dodge attempt failed to Roll with the Impact. Minor thing but its important.

tdumontelle wrote:• A friendly mecha that shielded a defending mecha to take half the MD from a weapon system that struck may spend 1CP to Roll with the Impact for the damage shared out to it to a minimum of 1MD.

• Only one Roll with the Impact may be made for each weapon system that strikes and was not Dodged by the defending mecha.

• A weapon system that strikes and was not: Dodged; shared out to a friendly mecha shielding at Close Formation distance, nor Rolled with the Impact will deliver full MD to the defending mecha.

The force is strong with this one!

I would add 2 clarifications....

#1
• A mecha defending against enemy mecha that is struck by one or more weapon systems at once can spend 1CP per weapon system to Dodge them. The defending mecha may choose which weapon systems that struck it to Dodge—all, some, or none.

I would say this, the wording almost makes it seem like you roll X Dodge rolls and can choose which hits to be successful against. You choose how many dodges you wish to attempt and then roll against each individual attack roll with the exception noted on missiles.

• A mecha defending against enemy mecha that is struck by one or more weapon systems at once can spend 1CP per weapon system to Dodge them. The defending mecha may roll one by one against any or all weapon systems that struck it in order to Dodge.

#2
• A friendly mecha that shielded a defending mecha to take half the MD from a weapon system that struck may spend 1CP to Roll with the Impact for the damage shared out to it to a minimum of 1MD.

This is kinda unclear, one point is suggested but not clarified. I'd change it to make sure the player knows that even if you shield another unit BOTH may still also Roll With Impact.

• A friendly mecha that shielded a defending mecha in order to share half the MD from a weapon system may also spend 1CP to Roll with the Impact for the damage shared out to it to a minimum of 1MD for each mecha.

EX: A Veritech fires on a Regult and the Regult fails to dodge. Another Regult is in Close Formation and the player decides to use it to shield the Regult that was struck. Both Regults will now take 3 MD. The player then decides to Roll With Impact with both Regults, halving the 3 to 1 MD. Each Regult takes 1 MD damage.

Thanks for the clarifications, Phaze and Mike1975. That helps.