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So I have given in to my players desires to play a Mega Hero game, and in preparation I picked up the Rifter 37 PDF off DriveThruRPG. My question is concerning the dual class option and the normal Mega-Powers as well as the added Mega-Powers, does the dual class receive the Mega-Powers that a Mega Hero normally gets and the new ones or none at all? I am the GM so it's ultimately my call but I'm just looking for clarification. Or say the Stage Magician with one of the magic options, does he get the normal Mega-Powers with the Magic Mega or just the Magic Mega?

I see no reason to limit the redonkulousnous of a Mega-Hero, I think the redonkulousnous is kinda the point. At the same time I have no experience with Mega Heroes, so any advice on this would be great.

iirc, the dual class doesn't get any mega powers.

The Second Class/Power Category is their Mega Power.

However, if they have an Achilles' Heel that would be worth 2 Mega Powers, you could let them take both the 2nd Power Category and 1 regular Mega Power (Powers that do not count as 2 powers like Immortal).

A little confused myself.

Is it a level:2 Physical Training Dual class level:1Experiment.
Orr is it a Physical Training Experiment level:1
If so that two power cats to start is freakin awesome! !

For the character you proposed, you would start of as a Level 1 Physical Training Experiment (2 categories both at first level). You would then double the amount of experience you need to reach each new level of experience (more or less) as you divide the experience between the two categories. Finally, you get all the skills and abilities provided by the Physical Training category, but only the special powers provided by the Experiment (including side effects and such)... you don't get extra skills (unless provided by powers).

So it's now "quasi" legal to stack power catergories.
I understand the education limitations as well.
Omg!! Though.
To the notepad!!!

Only for Mega Heroes... and even then it is an optional rule.

I allow megaheroes.
I also love this post.

PsiStalker Mystic Bestowed anyone. And I just got Krysscryths specialized minions. Lol.

say652 wrote:I allow megaheroes.
I also love this post.

PsiStalker Mystic Bestowed anyone. And I just got Krysscryths specialized minions. Lol.

Just a note...
but as per the article that isn't a legal combination.....

You have to take a skill class and a power class. You cant take two power classes (and it says you can not combine psi and magic...)

That said its your game so do what you want.

Heroes unlimited.
Psionic power category: Psi-Stalker
Mega hero power category: Mystically bestowed Abilities.

It's all in the negotiation process.

Actually it is a legal combination.

Only Mystic Study can't be combined with psionics. In this case, the magical abilities/powers are being granted from an outside source and thus are considered inherent powers that don't really need much training to use.

On the other hand, learning to use the psychic powers of a Psi-Stalker and the skills of that Psychic Class does take time to master (and thus is considered his base class for skills and such). In this case, the Psychic Class is the skill class that provides him with skills and base powers, while an outside source has granted him mystical powers.

For that matter the Psychic could have found an enchanted weapon or item that does the same... still legal as far as the noted limitations are concerned.

Another.
Hardware Analytical Specialist(Experiment hu2) Super Soldier.

Basically a Scientist that reverse engineered a Super Soldier process.

Man this is a fun post.

For a game I was in I made a classical Magical Girl....
Mystic Study (training) / Mystic Bestowed (powers)

She knows all sorts of magical lore that her master has taught her through their link, and when that knowelege proves insufficient... she can invoke his power transforming into her alter ego (complete with magic words, risqué transformation scene and combat poses) for some serious magical mayhem.

Eli that is epic on a grand scale!!

I had done something like this well before Rifter 37 and its semi-redonkulous Mega Being article....

Hardware: Weapons / Mutant [or Experiment]
Lightning Reflexes
Radar
EO PP
Targeting
Gun Limbs

A slight variation
Weapon Melding
Targeting
Lightning Reflexes
EO PP

NMI,
Is the psuedo Cosmo knight a Megahero as well??

say652 wrote:NMI,
Is the psuedo Cosmo knight a Megahero as well??

Technically no, he isn't. As mentioned in the Arismal race in Aliens Unlimited, they can have up 2 Majors and 5 minors. He is book legal as is. One could make him a Mega Hero if they wanted, but it technically isn't needed.

Here's a Dual Category Hero I made up a while ago for my Super Nova setting idea.

Fusion
Real Name: Trystan Harthorn
Alignment: Scrupulous
Attributes: IQ- 25; ME- 15; MA- 20; PS- 18 (45 superhuman)*; PP- 14; PE- 16; PB- 20; SPD- 22
Hit Points: 50 SDC: 75 PPE: 20
Race: Human Height: 5 ft 10 in Weight: 175 lbs Age: 29 Sex: Male
Experience Level: 10th level Analytical Genius Mega Hero
Skills of Note:
Scholastic– Electrical Engineer 98%, Mechanical Engineer 96%, Weapons Engineer 91%, Robot Mechanics 98%, Robot Electronics 96%, Radio: Basic 98%, Read Sensory Instruments 98%, Chemistry 98%, Chemistry: Analytical 98%, Computer Operation 98%, Computer Programing 96%, Computer Repair 91%, Astrophysics 96%, Art 98%, Anthropology 86%, Biology 96%, Paramedic 98%, Intelligence 89%, Research 98%, Math: Advanced 98%; Buisness/Finance 98%, Law (General) 91%, Photography 98%, Writing 91%.
Secondary– Hand to Hand: Basic, Swimming 98%, Netwise 67%, Wardrobe/Grooming 97%, Pilot: Automobile 89%, Prowl 81%, Running, Physical Labour; Athletics, Aerobic Athletics; Body Building, Kick Boxing.
Special– Analyze/Operate Devices 109%, Build/Modify Armor 109%, Comunications: Electronic Countermeasures (Jamming) 99%.
Special Abilities:
Mega Powers– Super Genius Inventor, Wealth
Achilles Heels– Radioactive: Since the Nova Incident, Trystan has been emmiting high levels of radiation and while he seems to suffer no ill effects of this, he can pose a danger to those around him. There is a 30% chance per hour of close proximity (within 50 ft) to him that one will begin to show signs of Radiation Poisoning (reduce by 5% for every 50 ft away). Isolated: To protect others from the radiation he now emmits, he must constantly wear his Fusion Containment Suit; and while it does channel the energy he emmits into amazing powers, it also keeps him isolated from human contact and social interactions.
Combat Training: Hand to Hand: Basic
Attacks per Melee: 6
Combat Bonuses: +1 to initiative, +1 to strike, +3 to parry, +3 to dodge, +5(32)* damage, +2 to disarm, +5 to pull, +5 to roll, +1 vs. magic/poison, +4% vs. coma/death.
Other Combat Info: +2 kick damage, Sense of Balance 61%, Critical Strike on a Natural 19+, Body Throw/Flip: 1d6 (victim looses initiative and 1 melee attack), Snap Kick: 1d6, Roundhouse Kick: 3d6, Axe Kick: 2d8, Knee Strike: 1d8, Leap Kick: 3d8 (2 attacks), 60% invoke trust/intimidate, 50% to charm/impress.
Body Armor:
Fusion Containment Suit (Mark VI)
A.R.: 15 (natural) SDC: 660 (Main Body)
Features: Provides the following Super Powers:
Major Power: Radiation Control.
Minor Powers: Flight (Wingless) and Superhuman Strength (use values in brackets while in the suit).
Note: As long as Trystan is wearing the suit, he does not radiate any radiation unless the containment seals are breached as a result of damage (10% cumulative chance of containment breach for every 10% of SDC damage the suit takes). Once containment is breached, Trystan must concentrate to avoid contaminating an area with radiation (as per the rules in the Control Radiation Power). The suit is designed to withstand temperatures greater than what Trystan can generate (made of an alloy of Chromium, Titanium, Tungsten and Vanadium).
Money: As CEO of Hearthorn Enterprises, Trystan is one of the richest men on the planet and despite the recent dip in stock prices can still secure a stagering amount of funds to support his recent ventures into Super Heroics/Crime Fighting. Currently his company is retrofitting the Terra Nova Reactor Facility into a research and containment facility to study the Rift created durring the Nova Incident and are in the process of creating 3 other facilities… one to contain Rogue Novas, a specially designed facility for Trystan (where he doesn’t have to constantly wear his containment suit) and a facility where he will mentor a team of Novas to act as guardians of the city.

Okay... not sure if I was using the dual category rules or one of the Super Invention/Gadget Mega Power options presented in Rifter 37, but over all the result is more or less the same.

Ok so my question then would be is a Psi-Ghost conversion would fall under the same lines as the Psi-Stalker? Because a Psi-Ghost Super Soldier seems to be in order if so.

I would classify Psi-Ghosts as a Psychic Class, but since they already have 1 Major Power (Intangibility), I'd probably count that towards the Powers they would acquire from the Super Soldier Class (in other words, they get 1 less major power). Given the overall power increase that Super Soldiers got in PU2, I don't think this would weaken the character that much. Besides, he still has the number of powers rolled... just that one of the Majors was already accounted for (or 2 minors if no majors were rolled).

Razorwing wrote:The Second Class/Power Category is their Mega Power.

However, if they have an Achilles' Heel that would be worth 2 Mega Powers, you could let them take both the 2nd Power Category and 1 regular Mega Power (Powers that do not count as 2 powers like Immortal).

I am not sure if this is the intention of the writing. I do like the idea of taking an Achilles' Heel for a Mega Power, but I'd like to offer an alternative to your theory. I think the "powered" Power Category the Dual Class takes the place of the normal Mega-Powers, i.e. Supernatural Strength, healing, senses, 50% power boost, etc..

Would like to know your thoughts

Prodigy wrote:I am not sure if this is the intention of the writing. I do like the idea of taking an Achilles' Heel for a Mega Power, but I'd like to offer an alternative to your theory. I think the "powered" Power Category the Dual Class takes the place of the normal Mega-Powers, i.e. Supernatural Strength, healing, senses, 50% power boost, etc..

Would like to know your thoughts

While a Dual Class character would be more powerful than your standard character, I wouldn't classify such a character as being a Mega without the normal enhancements Mega Heroes gets. A Mega Hero is more than just a character that receives a Mega Power like Tremendous SDC or Immortality... all his inherent abilities or equipment is enhanced to be better than the norm.

Yes, you could have a combined Hardware and Bionic character that has the skills of an Analytical Genius and the built in weaponry of a Cyborg... but he isn't that much better than either when compared to a Mega Hardware or Mega Cyborg that has higher levels of SDC, increased range with weapons, and a bigger budget to work with in addition to a tech based Mega Power (and Achilles' Heel). Without those enhancements, a single class Mega is probably going to win against a Dual Class character, even though the Dual Class is more powerful/skilled than a Single Class character.

In my opinion, the Second Class/Power category for Dual Class Mega Heroes is only the equivalent of the Special Mega Power normally received by Mega Heroes. The additional enhancements will still be needed for such characters to compete on the level of other Mega Heroes.

Remember that Equipment Based Mega Heroes don't get the same enhancements that Inherently Powered Mega Heroes get (Increased ISP/PPE, healing and supernatural nature). They do get an enhanced budget to help level the playing field by allowing them to afford more equipment or build more powerful robots/vehicles (which get the increased range and SDC).

I do have one question for you though... if you did strip a Dual Class Mega of their enhancements, would you also strip them of the need for an Achilles' Heel too? Each power category has inherent weakness to them (mutants unusual appearances and side effects from Experiments for example), which a Dual Class would inherent from both power categories. If you eliminate the other enhancements yet still require an Achilles' Heel, would that character feel balanced when compared by a Single Class Mega with the enhancements, Mega Power and Achilles' Heel?

Todays Megahero.

Mutant Experiment.

WireMan.
Aka: Sullivan Mc Cormik.
3 Major Powers from experiment.
Unstable Mutation Powers increase with age and experience.

Mega Powers: Tremendous Sdc and Awe Factor.
Mega Weakness: Must Transform, A strerchy white and Black Costume. No mega powers or Other powers in human form.


Traits: Ambidextrous, Double Jointed.
Side Effect: Breathe Without Air.

Major Powers:
Natural Combat Ability.
Stretching.
Vibration.
Super Energy Expulsion:Electricity.

Minor Powers:
Extraordinary Physical Prowess.
Extraordinary Speed.

What of his Achilles' Heel?

Razorwing wrote:What of his Achilles' Heel?

I'm not sure he needs one. He doesn't appear to have a Mega-Power.

He's a Mutant Experiment... Dual Class Mega Hero. His Mega Power is the second Class, so he needs a Achilles' Heel.

I added in the mega powers and weaknesses.

Sorry but the character's Dual Class is their Mega Power. You would need 3 Achilles' Heels to have Dual Class and 2 Mega Powers like you have. The Transformation needed to use powers only counts as 1 Achilles' Heel, even with the character being "normal" in his mundane form.

Hmmm... not sure exactly how your 3rd Achilles' Heel would hinder your character the same way as many of the others do... but I am willing to listen to how you would explain it before I say any more.

Additionally, I am usually reluctant to allow 3 Mega Powers for any character, even Mega Heroes. Since Immortality counts as 2 powers, that is usually the max I will allow.

Ok.
2nd Mega weakness: Extremely attracted to the opposite sex.
3rd Mega Weakness: Mutation growth: Stocky, Oversized hands, Odd hair color: Metallc Silver, odd eye color: White.

you posted the same post twice (though how I got in between them I have yet to figure out).

So I take it the excessive mutations for his 3rd Achilles' Heel is for his regular form, clearly branding him as a mutant... thus he will have to endure the ridicule and prejudice many mutants get on a regular basis when in the form that can't use his powers. I can see how that could present a number of difficulties for the character to help balance out the higher power level he has in his "powered" form.

As for his extreme attraction to the opposite sex... that could make for some interesting interactions since both his forms don't sound like they are that attractive (and even if they were, this vulnerability can still be a serious distraction).

Normally I would be reluctant to let a player have the equivalent of 3 mega powers, but this character sounds like he might be worth a try.

Thats from wayyyy back in middle school when I used to draw homemade comics. Lol.

Named after a road up rhe street and chicken nuggets. I always drew him with big hands and feet and on oversized head.

Kind of bored... so here's the power concept of a character I'm planning a story for.

Shard,

Physical Training:
- Combat Athlete
- Combat Athletics
Super Invention: Implant replacing heart.
- Energy Resistance (minor) - might replace with a flight power...
- Energy Expulsion: Energy (minor)
- Create Force Fields (Major)
- Create Force Constructs (Major)

Achilles Heel:
- P.P.E. Generator:
- - Attacks and powers count as magical
- Loss of Humanity: (not sure on this one...)

W.I.P.

Experiment/Shifter.

Side effect:chemical resistance.

6 minor powers.
Wizardly.
Metaphysical regeneration.
Paranormal hitpoints.
Superhuman IQ-revised version.
Extraordinary Mental Endurance.
Healing Factor.

Lots of skills lots of spells. Still trying to finish may use this one in a game.

Slight001 wrote:Kind of bored... so here's the power concept of a character I'm planning a story for.

Shard,

Physical Training:
- Combat Athlete
- Combat Athletics
Super Invention: Implant replacing heart.
- Energy Resistance (minor) - might replace with a flight power...
- Energy Expulsion: Energy (minor)
- Create Force Fields (Major)
- Create Force Constructs (Major)

Achilles Heel:
- P.P.E. Generator:
- - Attacks and powers count as magical
- Loss of Humanity: (not sure on this one...)

Keep in mind, something like this "should" be highly susceptible to those sensitive to the supernatural, able to sense PPE/Magic, possible could even be "tracked" as if he was a creature of magic.

If you go with a Flight power, perhaps "Flight: Energy" or "Flying Force Discs". Change Energy Expulsion: Energy to "Force Blasts", this way you wouldn't be stuck with the limited, static damage of the Force Bolts.

Slight001 wrote:Kind of bored... so here's the power concept of a character I'm planning a story for.

Shard,

Physical Training:
- Combat Athlete
- Combat Athletics
Super Invention: Implant replacing heart.
- Energy Resistance (minor) - might replace with a flight power...
- Energy Expulsion: Energy (minor)
- Create Force Fields (Major)
- Create Force Constructs (Major)

Achilles Heel:
- P.P.E. Generator:
- - Attacks and powers count as magical
- Loss of Humanity: (not sure on this one...)

My biggest concern with this character is that you have made the invention something that can't be removed without killing the character. One of the innate vulnerabilities of Super inventions is that without it, the character has no powers... a vulnerability you conveniently eliminated by making it impossible to remove.

One of the key factors in Dual Class Mega Heroes is that they still retain both the strengths and weaknesses of both power categories in addition to the Achilles Heel of being a Mega. By making it an irremovable part of your body, you make it so that it is impossible to strip your character of that power... a vulnerability intrinsic to the concept of super invention characters.

This character would be more like a Symbiotic Hero where the "invention" has become a part of the character and would probably kill him/her if it were removed.

Okay... it is a small nit-pick in an otherwise interesting character... one that I might "appropriate" with a few modifications.

Razorwing wrote:

Slight001 wrote:Kind of bored... so here's the power concept of a character I'm planning a story for.

Shard,

Physical Training:
- Combat Athlete
- Combat Athletics
Super Invention: Implant replacing heart.
- Energy Resistance (minor) - might replace with a flight power...
- Energy Expulsion: Energy (minor)
- Create Force Fields (Major)
- Create Force Constructs (Major)

Achilles Heel:
- P.P.E. Generator:
- - Attacks and powers count as magical
- Loss of Humanity: (not sure on this one...)

My biggest concern with this character is that you have made the invention something that can't be removed without killing the character. One of the innate vulnerabilities of Super inventions is that without it, the character has no powers... a vulnerability you conveniently eliminated by making it impossible to remove.

One of the key factors in Dual Class Mega Heroes is that they still retain both the strengths and weaknesses of both power categories in addition to the Achilles Heel of being a Mega. By making it an irremovable part of your body, you make it so that it is impossible to strip your character of that power... a vulnerability intrinsic to the concept of super invention characters.

This character would be more like a Symbiotic Hero where the "invention" has become a part of the character and would probably kill him/her if it were removed.

Okay... it is a small nit-pick in an otherwise interesting character... one that I might "appropriate" with a few modifications.

I am curious how the PPE generator works as a drawback?
Especially if it makes all your attacks magical. Since that is an upgrade in HU (now his attacks damage invulnerable characters for instance). Other than now opening his forcefields to being vunerable to one exotic spell it seems that his Achilles heel is more of a free power rather than a drawback of any kind.
I would agree with Razorwing and just make it a /Symbiotic hero rather than a /Invention though (which is pretty much just a cosmetic change really)

From the description in Rifter 39 the PPE Battery's drawbacks is that during certain times of the day and celestial events the device can surge with power and if it does surge, it shuts down (hmmm... do you really want your character's heart shutting down?).

Over-riding the shutdown has a chance of burning out the device (again... do you seriously want such a device as a replacement for a vital organ?) every time a power is used or for every minute of use. Of course, when the device is surging, the range, damage and effects are increased in power.

The Supernatural, Practitioners of Magic and Psychics are also drawn to the device. Psychics see it as an abomination and/or a source of supernatural evil. Most practitioners of magic will want to acquire it (by whatever means they are willing to use) as it is a technological source of mystic energy. Supernatural creatures will covet it as either a food source or for similar purposes as a magic user would. All in all... having it will make the person's life a lot more... interesting (and likely a lot more dangerous/deadly).

The more I look at this Achilles' Heel, the less sense it makes having the device as a replacement for the character's heart.

Actually it says the P.P.E. battery goes into basic backup function... which I'd say includes life support... though life support isn't likely to include support for running, combat and the poor bastard would basically be exhausted as his heart just barely keeps him alive.

Even so... do you really want such a device as your character's heart?

As an individual I don't want my characters to have any weaknesses of any sort. However in this case I like the idea. I've taken a strength and turned it into a major character defining weakness. After all what's the point of a weakness if it never occurs? Why bother having a flaw if it doesn't mean anything?

Todays Megahero of dual power categories.

Mutant Earth and Fire Warlock.
2 Major Powers.
Control Air
Control Water.

I agree with having a weakness Slight, but I think you've missed the point on how the Super Invention category hero was supposed to function.

Let's drop the whole Mega concept for a moment and see if you agree with the character you've made.

Super Invention power category is a character that has an invention that gives them their powers... and without it, they are just a normal person. Super Inventions can be lost, stolen or destroyed without necessarily killing the character. Does the invention you created fit these general parameters of the Super Invention category?

The invention is an artificial heart that provides powers to an otherwise normal person... however it can not be lost, stolen or destroyed without killing the character... so no... this does not fit the "theme" of the Super Invention category. Such a device would be more apt as part of an Experiment or could be considered a unique Symbiotic device. Those other categories have their own unique strengths and weaknesses that are inherent to their class.

What you have done with Shard is not combine two classes as a Mega, but use his status as a Mega to eliminate part of the flaws of one class while using the vulnerability of being a Mega to act as a replacement flaw. If he didn't have the Physical Training aspect to the character and was just a Mega Super Invention... would you think he is balanced? He may still has a serious vulnerability... but in most cases it is situational. However the inherent nature of it being a device that can empower anyone who has it is lost because it is an internal component of the hero. Anyone who wants it would have to rip it out of the chest of the hero and have it implanted in themselves... and that doesn't fit with the Super Invention theme.

The concept is an intriguing one... but the way you have brought it about doesn't quite work. All that is really needed is a change of what the invention is... from something internal to something external... something that can be lost, stolen or destroyed without killing the character to do so. It can retain the same Achilles' Heel (and everything that comes with that), but your character's life no longer depends on keeping the device (his status as a Mega on the other hand would depend on it, but that can lead to some interesting stories/adventures).

So I have been reading the various responses and I am seeing many people stating something along the line of, "your second class IS you mega power and you have to X number of Achilles heels". Unless I am really out of touch with the wording on the Mega Powers and the Special Mega Powers, which is very possible, from what I have gathered, IF you don't choose a Special Mega Power, you don't have to choose an Achilles Heel. The Duel Class option from Rifter 37 simply replaces the Mega Power bonuses from what I am seeing and not becoming a Special Mega Power.

Now my reasoning for this is that the Duel Class Mega Hero option is listed as an "Alternative Option". So I would assume that, by that wording, it would be placing the Duel Class Mega Hero on the same level as both the Immortal Power Category and the Natural Genius Power Category as both are listed as Optional Mega Heroes. My point is further backed up by the fact that it is the only Mega Hero that would not use the Mega Hero experience chart. Now that I think of it that could also mean that is the reason that you get the +50% bonus. Either way something is off with the Duel Class Mega Hero Alternative.

It should also be noted that the Duel Class doesn't have any specific Mega Power or Special Mega Power as does the Nanobot Hive that immediately follows it. Which with such a radical departure typical class selection on Palladium's part you would think that there would at least be something, anything, that would back up either side of the discussion but it doesn't and that leaves a large hole that is obviously being interpreted in different ways.

Like I said, I could be waaaaaayyyy off base on this and could be completely missing something that is in plain black and white and I am just too blind to see it.

Also, the only thing that I am seeing for determining any number of Special Mega Powers is the roll/choose one on page 181 but nothing states that you have to choose one. Now I understand that you would be gimping yourself if you didn't take at least one Special Mega Power but it only ever mentions getting more than one of those with GM's permission. However, it specifically states that you would only get more than one Achilles' Heel in a rare instance, paraphrasing. It does not however mention anything about having to take more than two no matter how many Special Mega Powers are taken. Now I would not have an issue with taking one Achilles' Heel per Special Mega Power above and beyond the first as the Special Mega Powers are indeed powerful.

Also, with the restrictions on the Duel Class of only being able to take parts from different classes instead of having all of the parts of both classes, I don't see why this would require taking an Achilles' Heel selection if you are not getting either A) the base Mega Powers benefits or B) All of the aspects of both classes. You are already be smacked with a heavy experience point penalty by having to split you xp evenly between both classes instead of simply leveling up as per the Mega Hero power category. Now the xp "penalty" for getting "the best of both worlds" is a fine way to keep the balance in check but having to take another penalty, and not a small one I might add, seems far too much of a cost to pay for what little you're getting our of the Mega Hero option since you don't even get the base +50% on the applicable areas when taking the Duel Class option.

So basing this on the Optional Alternative Mega Hero wording, I believe that the Duel Class Mega Hero should be considered a stand alone "class" as are both the Immortal and Natural Genius and thus stop looking at all of the other stuff listed under the Mega Hero Power Category and getting more confused than it already is. By doing it this way it would indeed be on par with both the Immortal and the Natural Genius but like both you would not be gaining the +50% bonus that comes with the Mega Hero Power Category.



Also, the whole "flipping" of the penalties when taking the Analytical Genius as a second area of study when you take the Weapons Engineer as your initial, or any other Engineer for that matter, I strongly disagree. By the time you have decided to take a second category in any of the Hardware selections, you have already selected all of your skill programs and secondary skills. This is assuming of course that you created the character in the step by step order that is laid out in every power category. If you start your character with any of the Hardware area of expertise you are given the option of choosing a second only after you have chosen your initial area of expertise. Thus telling you how to proceed on what is sacrificed to gain the benefits of the second area of expertise. Never once does it state that you loose your initial education rolls, unless of course you choose the Analytical as your initial area of expertise. Now until Hardware Unlimited comes out, if ever, this is what we have to go by as it is the only this that is canon.

Now I completely acknowledge that taking the Weapons Engineer first and the Analytical Engineer second would seem like a great idea because you don't loose any attacks per melee going that route, it is the only combination that you're not completely hosed in combat by taking a second area of expertise. Yes you loose four WPs and half of all your bonuses to your skills, but it never once states that you gain the penalties from both areas of expertise because that would have a semi-snowballing effect on your skills and your number of attacks per melee if you choose any other combination. Unless you can show me, ie direct me to a page and paragraph, where it states that the Analytical Genius trumps all other sub categories on the penalties specifically by requiring them to be taken in place of your primary engineer route (any choice other than the Analytical in this case), then you are wrong in your application of the penalties. If you can, great because that means that I have clearly missed something huge and I will apologize here before I even respond in a separate post.