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I've been painting some models and looking over the Robotech RPG books for the first time in a long time while paint dries and was trying to make sense of the combat rules as written again. Here was my first attempt:

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=141878

This time around, I found a new passage that both clarifies and muddies the water in the previous thread again (sorry, didn't want to necro an old thread... year time limit and all). On page 157 (top left) it specifically lists the stuff you get in hand to hand combat skills as "bonuses" with the exception of your base attacks which are under a different subheading.

On page 159 (top right), it specifically says you do NOT add PP bonuses or HTH bonuses to modern weapons. So, does anyone actually play exactly as written? No attack bonuses for level when shooting with modern weapons (in or outside of mecha), no strike bonuses, no dodge bonuses (since they don't specificy whether with or versus), etc. Do things like boxing which clearly belong in HTH also follow the "spirit" of this rule? Every time I try to make logical 1+1=2 sense of the rules, I end up with 3 (and the common responses to that dilema is to instead use 2x3=7 from another game or book). Or do folks just tend to add up all the bonuses (like with previous games like original robotech/rifts) into one big pile unless specificed under that specific rule (like with WP's or weapon specific bonuses)?

I would really appreciate it if respondents who try to quote the rules to justify their answers please state the Robotech book (and ONLY robotech books) and page number of the text they're using. I know there are a myriad of other ways to "fix" this both from OTHER rpgs made by palladium as well as common house rule alternatives (like simply lumping it all together as stated above)... but I'm looking for an in game robotech rules solution to this if possible.

the group i play with plays with no houserules.

also, that "no PP or HTH bonus for modern weapons" thing has been part of palladiums core ruleset for the better part of 20 years.

only WP's, weapon systems skill, and bonuses given by MECT/the specific vehicle apply to modern weapons.

and you still add together your HTH and MECT.. you just have to keep seperate the bonuses for melee from the bonuses for the guns.

also the strike bonuses from hand to hand skills you get at levels have always been for melee combat only. they have never been applied to modern weapons like guns or missiles.

Nope.

glitterboy2098 wrote:the group i play with plays with no houserules.

also, that "no PP or HTH bonus for modern weapons" thing has been part of palladiums core ruleset for the better part of 20 years.

only WP's, weapon systems skill, and bonuses given by MECT/the specific vehicle apply to modern weapons.

Does that apply to the big mounted single shot weapons like the hovertank main gun or the p-beam on top of the glaug officer's pod?

Why would those be any different?

glitterboy2098 wrote:Why would those be any different?

Pg. 160 under single fire shots (which is the only type of fire those weapons are capable of). The mect/weapon system/weapon entry bonuses do NOT fall under WP or the table below it and the rule says NO additional bonuses apply. Whether knowingly or not, you have effectively been house ruling because you have two mutually exclusive rules sprinkled throughout the book. The weapons system skill rules say use it but the single shot rules say you can't. You either opted to house rule (if you knew about the exception) to go with the much more logical former (to include the bonuses for single fire weapons) or, if you didn't know about, it still illustrates the problem of conflicting rules sprinkled throughout the rulebook because of the haphazard way the palladium rules has slowly evolved over 30 years without anyone ever doing a major housecleaning... and you must NOW make a decision whether to house rule it to play as you have been or to instead play it with the nonsensical rules as written. The palladium rules, when you attempt to read them in a logical 1+1=2 fashion as written, simply don't work in many cases.

I think it'd be a neat house rule to add PP bonuses to guns in close-range combat since your personal agility and limb-moving seems to be more important there, whereas accuracy at longer distances is more of a micro-prowess issue than a macro-prowess issue.

bielmic wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:Why would those be any different?

Pg. 160 under single fire shots (which is the only type of fire those weapons are capable of). The mect/weapon system/weapon entry bonuses do NOT fall under WP or the table below it and the rule says NO additional bonuses apply. Whether knowingly or not, you have effectively been house ruling because you have two mutually exclusive rules sprinkled throughout the book. The weapons system skill rules say use it but the single shot rules say you can't. You either opted to house rule (if you knew about the exception) to go with the much more logical former (to include the bonuses for single fire weapons) or, if you didn't know about, it still illustrates the problem of conflicting rules sprinkled throughout the rulebook because of the haphazard way the palladium rules has slowly evolved over 30 years without anyone ever doing a major housecleaning... and you must NOW make a decision whether to house rule it to play as you have been or to instead play it with the nonsensical rules as written. The palladium rules, when you attempt to read them in a logical 1+1=2 fashion as written, simply don't work in many cases.

W.P. Heavy Mega-Damage Weapons. "Includes plasma ejectors, M.D. rail guns, rocket launchers, mini-missile launchers, and weapon turrets and cannons built into or which are a key part of giant robots, tanks, aircraft and other combat vehicles.
The VHT main cannon would fall under this heading. Along with just about any other built-in weapon system. External Hand-Held gunpods/weapons would be covered by WP skills to.

ShadowLogan wrote:

bielmic wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:Why would those be any different?

Pg. 160 under single fire shots (which is the only type of fire those weapons are capable of). The mect/weapon system/weapon entry bonuses do NOT fall under WP or the table below it and the rule says NO additional bonuses apply. Whether knowingly or not, you have effectively been house ruling because you have two mutually exclusive rules sprinkled throughout the book. The weapons system skill rules say use it but the single shot rules say you can't. You either opted to house rule (if you knew about the exception) to go with the much more logical former (to include the bonuses for single fire weapons) or, if you didn't know about, it still illustrates the problem of conflicting rules sprinkled throughout the rulebook because of the haphazard way the palladium rules has slowly evolved over 30 years without anyone ever doing a major housecleaning... and you must NOW make a decision whether to house rule it to play as you have been or to instead play it with the nonsensical rules as written. The palladium rules, when you attempt to read them in a logical 1+1=2 fashion as written, simply don't work in many cases.

W.P. Heavy Mega-Damage Weapons. "Includes plasma ejectors, M.D. rail guns, rocket launchers, mini-missile launchers, and weapon turrets and cannons built into or which are a key part of giant robots, tanks, aircraft and other combat vehicles.
The VHT main cannon would fall under this heading. Along with just about any other built-in weapon system. External Hand-Held gunpods/weapons would be covered by WP skills to.

Yup, I agree and have never stated otherwise. The WP bonuses and the modifiers from the table below the single fire rule are NOT at issue. Everything else is disallowed by the rule and if you use them then you're not playing the rules as written (RAW).

I've played rules-as-written all of maybe twice... at which point the red ink pen came out and things started getting streamlined and corrected.

I try to play RAW - but it is very hard, when the game is not internally consistent. Which is a huge pet peeve for me.

We play pretty much RAW in terms of stats and rules, though sometimes have houseruled clarifications. I think the only houserule that stands out though is the character creation process and the number of d6 rolled (we roll 4d6, re-roll 1s and drop the lowest unless the 3highest allow for a bonus roll). We also check other PB line rule books if the current line we are playing in is unclear or non-existent and possibly to expand options (in 1E skill list was so short that porting additional skills from other lines helped give characters more variety).

bieimic wrote:Yup, I agree and have never stated otherwise. The WP bonuses and the modifiers from the table below the single fire rule are NOT at issue. Everything else is disallowed by the rule and if you use them then you're not playing the rules as written (RAW).

Except that the WP description themselves allow for it's inclusion on mecha/vehicle weapon systems. And specific systems can provide additional bonuses. Sometimes the rules will state something, but later you will see an exception that will over rule it.

bielmic wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:

bielmic wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:Why would those be any different?

Pg. 160 under single fire shots (which is the only type of fire those weapons are capable of). The mect/weapon system/weapon entry bonuses do NOT fall under WP or the table below it and the rule says NO additional bonuses apply. Whether knowingly or not, you have effectively been house ruling because you have two mutually exclusive rules sprinkled throughout the book. The weapons system skill rules say use it but the single shot rules say you can't. You either opted to house rule (if you knew about the exception) to go with the much more logical former (to include the bonuses for single fire weapons) or, if you didn't know about, it still illustrates the problem of conflicting rules sprinkled throughout the rulebook because of the haphazard way the palladium rules has slowly evolved over 30 years without anyone ever doing a major housecleaning... and you must NOW make a decision whether to house rule it to play as you have been or to instead play it with the nonsensical rules as written. The palladium rules, when you attempt to read them in a logical 1+1=2 fashion as written, simply don't work in many cases.

W.P. Heavy Mega-Damage Weapons. "Includes plasma ejectors, M.D. rail guns, rocket launchers, mini-missile launchers, and weapon turrets and cannons built into or which are a key part of giant robots, tanks, aircraft and other combat vehicles.
The VHT main cannon would fall under this heading. Along with just about any other built-in weapon system. External Hand-Held gunpods/weapons would be covered by WP skills to.

Yup, I agree and have never stated otherwise. The WP bonuses and the modifiers from the table below the single fire rule are NOT at issue. Everything else is disallowed by the rule and if you use them then you're not playing the rules as written (RAW).

Except that the rule is in regards to Modern Weapons being fired with W.P.s thus a rule about hand weapons would not apply to a mecha weapon in the first case, and the second case the statement 'no additional bonuses or penalties' would mean that it is not penalized like a called shot nor gains a bonus like an aimed shot. This is especially made evident because some of the 'except for the following' bonuses specifically call out that sniping and WP modify.......

Tiree wrote:I try to play RAW - but it is very hard, when the game is not internally consistent. Which is a huge pet peeve for me.

Agreed. There are some things that you just have to house rule to make them work. The RAW may work for most instances, but there are situations when two rules seem to work against each other, mechanics that should work one way for one rule, ends up working a different way for another rule (example, adding bonuses for Auto Dodge vs adding bonuses for Auto Parry; or DC by location for tech vs static single value for organic). Id just like to see consistency.

I will say in my group we thought we were playing RAW in fact we had numerous house rules.

the adjusted dice rule is IMO a fairly common house rule to give chars a slightly more "epic" feel
and first it was roll 4 dice drop the lowest, then when one person got several 3-5 stats even with that... it became reroll 1's, and on occasion reroll 1's and 2's

with that said to "simplify" things we did tend to apply the pp bonus across the board as to us it made more sense that someone with naturally better reflexes is going to be better at ALL aspects of combat than someone who is less "gifted"

guardiandashi wrote:I will say in my group we thought we were playing RAW in fact we had numerous house rules.

the adjusted dice rule is IMO a fairly common house rule to give chars a slightly more "epic" feel
and first it was roll 4 dice drop the lowest, then when one person got several 3-5 stats even with that... it became reroll 1's, and on occasion reroll 1's and 2's

with that said to "simplify" things we did tend to apply the pp bonus across the board as to us it made more sense that someone with naturally better reflexes is going to be better at ALL aspects of combat than someone who is less "gifted"

Using the new Quick Stat Chart, it makes things easier. You just roll 1 die and have a bonus.