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So I'm finally getting to play Rifts again after nearly 20 years, and decided to make a Cosmo Knight (Always wanted to play one, never got the chance). I've been reading the forums to better understand them, but one thing I noticed hasn't been talked about much, and it seems like their craziest power (or maybe I'm understanding it, or the game in general, wrong).

The Force Field.

The character I rolled up has 500 PPE. (Which I don't really see that many uses for). If I decided to dump half these on a Force Field, would I really have a 2500 MDC Force Field?

Also, am I reading this power wrong, or is the only limit on this power that I can <sarcasm>only</sarcasm> active the power twice an hour?

Right now the way I'm understanding this is that I can travel in disguise, without wearing my 500 MDC armor, but with a 2500 MDC force field up at all times, which I can also reactivate once an hour if it's worn down (effectively giving me 5000 MDC at all times).

Am I reading something wrong?

If a CK put all their PPE into creating a perm FF as you are seeing it then they would not have any PPE to do all the other things that need PPE to fuel.

Invest more Ppe, 4000mdc seems legit.

Where does it say it costs PPE? How much PPE does it cost?

From my reading it cost PERMANENT PPE to set up, but once you've spent the Permanent PPE, then you can activate it twice an hour, and each activation lasts one hour.

I am new to Rifts, but so far I haven't seen anything that can get close to that much MDC at first level.

If you're saying that the power doesn't use Permanent PPE, but instead the Cosmo Knight spends 1 PPE per 10 MDC, that lasts an hour... that's even more powerful.

Cosmo Knights regenerate 1d4x10 MDC per Minute. They can convert 2 MDC to 1 PPE. That means that a Cosmo Knight can regenerate at least 1000 MDC per hour (probably a lot more), which he could convert to 500 PPE or more. That gives him at a minimum 5000 MDC every hour, and that's not even counting his actual PPE score. He could easily create 10,000 MDC or more when he needed it.

Yes you could put a ton of PPE into the weapon to give it "vast cosmic powers'....but then you don't have PPE to do stuff like power energy blasts etc.
And of course there is the minor down side that if someone takes the weapon away that all the invested power goes with it.

There are reasons though that Cosmoknights are seen as one of the top tier power houses in the Megaverse....

Thought Cosmoknights could just cancel and resummon the weapon. Also, yah, the FF costs permanent PPE, I believe.

Though honestly, you can get pew-pew though other means.

Godslayer wrote:So I'm finally getting to play Rifts again after nearly 20 years, and decided to make a Cosmo Knight (Always wanted to play one, never got the chance). I've been reading the forums to better understand them, but one thing I noticed hasn't been talked about much, and it seems like their craziest power (or maybe I'm understanding it, or the game in general, wrong).

The Force Field.

The character I rolled up has 500 PPE. (Which I don't really see that many uses for). If I decided to dump half these on a Force Field, would I really have a 2500 MDC Force Field?

Also, am I reading this power wrong, or is the only limit on this power that I can <sarcasm>only</sarcasm> active the power twice an hour?

Right now the way I'm understanding this is that I can travel in disguise, without wearing my 500 MDC armor, but with a 2500 MDC force field up at all times, which I can also reactivate once an hour if it's worn down (effectively giving me 5000 MDC at all times).

Am I reading something wrong?

No you are not reading it wrong. How much of your 500 PPE did you permanently sacrifice for you Cosmo weapon? Also remember that said force field lasts for an hour then it and the PPE you spent to put it up are gone until the PPE is recovered. Your Super luminal flight also takes 30 PPE per jump.

PS. A glowing force field is a bit of a give away, along with carrying your Cosmo Weapon.

Let me ask another question, because it isn't clear to me: Does the Force Field cost temporary PPE, or Permanent PPE?

The way I was reading it was that when you create your weapon, you sacrifice PERMANENT PPE, and get 10 MDC per PPE that you gave up. You can then activate that Force Field twice per hour, at no cost.

Or is it just that you make a weapon with the Force Field power, and then up to twice per hour you can create a Force Field for 1 PPE per 10 MDC that lasts one hour?

Godslayer wrote:Let me ask another question, because it isn't clear to me: Does the Force Field cost temporary PPE, or Permanent PPE?

The way I was reading it was that when you create your weapon, you sacrifice PERMANENT PPE, and get 10 MDC per PPE that you gave up. You can then activate that Force Field twice per hour, at no cost.

Or is it just that you make a weapon with the Force Field power, and then up to twice per hour you can create a Force Field for 1 PPE per 10 MDC that lasts one hour?

Temporary, when it cost permanent PPE such as when you create you Cosmo Weapon (50 PPE) and choose one of the modifications those cost permanent PPE and specifically say so. The Force Field is an ability of the Cosmo Weapon and you spend PPE to create it like throwing a spell.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:If a CK put all their PPE into creating a perm FF as you are seeing it then they would not have any PPE to do all the other things that need PPE to fuel.

Unless they just wanted to spend their personal MDC on it, which is better since it regenerates faster than PPE does, and it's not like they'd need their personal MDC since the force field would protect it, plus they could always put up their armor in an emergency if the field were brought down.

I'd almost want to sacrifice most of my personal MDC to power this field as well. The only problem with that I can see: sometimes you might want to lower the field for some reason, and during those moments you could be vulnerable without personal MDC.

If you were willing to reveal you were a Cosmo-Knight then you could put up your armor for stuff like hand-shaking, but if you wanted to shake hands while under-cover, you could be out of luck, or else you might want to wear some normal armor if all you have left is 1 MDC from spending the rest of your personal MDC to power up your weapon's forcefield.

Hopefully anyone wanting to rely on a forcefield while under cover has a cosmic weapon that doesn't look too conspicuous. I'd for for a Cosmo-Knife, personally, if size doesn't affect damage. Hope it passes for a vibro-blade. If I were aware of Oni culture, I might go for a cosmo-sword if it could shift into an energy pistol and a computer too.

That said, while a Cosmo-Knight not worried about cover could keep their armor on for protection while shaking hands, there could still be other acts for which a Cosmo-Knight might wish to remove their armor.

For example, if they wanted to engage in kissing, or other actions of an intimate nature.

Although it is "a metal skin" and "skin-tight metallic armor" which covers completely. If you picked an armor design without all the extra adornments we see in the artwork, something more along the lines of say, the Machine Person on page 78 (kinda reminds me of Silver Surfer) then things probably wouldn't be too more grating than with one of those sentient bots. With their high PBs, some Kreeghor, Humans, perhaps Atorians (if you use Option 2 on page 52 of DB3), Wolfen/Wulfen, Silhouette, Monro, or Noro in the TGG has bound to be tempted.

The skin-tightness of the armor makes me wonder if you might even retain some level of sense of touch when wearing it. Perhaps not fully, but maybe in a reduced state like when wearing a Psychic Body Field? Some knights and their chosen partners might even prefer it this way, like Bruce with Canary (November 2007's issue 7 of All Star Batman and Robin, the Boy Wonder) or Selina (November 2011's issue 1 of Catwoman Volume 4). Plus maybe keeping your armor up helps keep... and that's all folks.

So from re-reading the rules on the Cosmo Knight, I'm sort of convinced that it works like this:

Each Cosmic Weapon can optionally have one of two powers: They can do Extra Damage, or Focus the knights Energy Blasts.

But ALL Cosmic Weapons can create a Force Field. The Knight does this by spending PPE, just as if casting a spell. Generating a Force Field, does not count as one of the Cosmic Weapons additional powers.

Force Field is listed apart from the other powers, and under the rules for the weapons it clearly states that the additional powers cost permanent PPE or MDC, which Force Field doesn't mention, (because its just a power that all cosmic weapons get).

Once the forcefield is attuned to the weapon, it can be activated up to twice per hour.
So a shield with a 4000mdc forcefield can be activated every 30minutes.
The cosmic blasts as is are beefy, use mdc to power them up.
Lightspeed jumping...eh, book passage on a feeighter. And people to chat with

The other choice of creating an additional weapon.
Whips are an interesting blend. Tack on the powers up blast thing and badoom! Problems solved.

Godslayer wrote:So from re-reading the rules on the Cosmo Knight, I'm sort of convinced that it works like this:

Each Cosmic Weapon can optionally have one of two powers: They can do Extra Damage, or Focus the knights Energy Blasts.

But ALL Cosmic Weapons can create a Force Field. The Knight does this by spending PPE, just as if casting a spell. Generating a Force Field, does not count as one of the Cosmic Weapons additional powers.

Force Field is listed apart from the other powers, and under the rules for the weapons it clearly states that the additional powers cost permanent PPE or MDC, which Force Field doesn't mention, (because its just a power that all cosmic weapons get).

Which means that you need the PPE to raise it, each time you raise it.
If you spend 250PPE, and it gets destroyed or the time runs out, then you need to spend more ppe to raise it again. Which means that you need another 250PPE if you want another 2500mdc force field....and an hour later you will need yet another 250PPE........

True, and it will take forever to replenish that much PPE.

Then again, if people are in need and you can get a few dozen, or even a hundred to give you PPE. You can can become a Cosmic God for an hour to go take down some truly powerful evil creature.

Interesting, I alqays used it as once ypu chatged the weapon you could activate it twice per hour.
I had no idea you would need to pay the ppe equal to the forcefield each time.

Even still shelling out a few hundred mdc of your mainbody that heals very very very fast to lower a 4000mdc forcefield?
Well that seems pretty legit. Hopefully and against most opponents the forcefield should last long enough for the Cosmoknight to heal to max mdc.

The multiple weapon creation, I am very very interested in discussing this further, so as to establish board accepted rules governing as such.

Just remember folks.....
By the book a CK can only convert MDC to PPE when they are out of PPE.....
So you have to spend all of your PPE first, then you can spend some of your MDC.....

Godslayer wrote:True, and it will take forever to replenish that much PPE.

Then again, if people are in need and you can get a few dozen, or even a hundred to give you PPE. You can can become a Cosmic God for an hour to go take down some truly powerful evil creature.

It never says that others can donate PPE to the CK, so their PPE is limited to personal pool. The thought of burning your health to fuel your force field may sound like a good thing until you find yourself running low of health in a battle.

But can use TechnoWizard devices such as ppe batteries etc.
Also the Fallen Knight being able to become a Mindmelter opens up the psi helm option.

say652 wrote:But can use TechnoWizard devices such as ppe batteries etc.
Also the Fallen Knight being able to become a Mindmelter opens up the psi helm option.

I have never seen where is says that TW PPE batteries can be used to power cast spell or personal abilities, just TW items and devices.

eliakon wrote:Just remember folks.....
By the book a CK can only convert MDC to PPE when they are out of PPE.....
So you have to spend all of your PPE first, then you can spend some of your MDC.....

I suspect you are taking the wording too literally.

--flatline

An extra 25 ppe. I think you can use it as you wish, it doesn't say ppe batteries can only be used for TechnoWizard devices.

The CK rule description is one of the ones that really needs a simple polishing. So much that could be made more clear with phrasing... yea, on a re-read I agree that you gotta power it each time.

Alrik Vas wrote:Thought Cosmoknights could just cancel and resummon the weapon.

I think they can only cancel it if they're holding it or such- stealing CK weapons is noted as something that's happened, and there's even a canon example, the Cosmo-Knight character imprisoned in (Dyval? Hell? One of those two).


So yes, there is a real danger of losing your super weapon if you aren't careful.



And using up PPE for it is a worry, since spending PPE to multiply damage is how CKs get the firepower to threaten ships and not just tank them for awhile.

flatline wrote:

eliakon wrote:Just remember folks.....
By the book a CK can only convert MDC to PPE when they are out of PPE.....
So you have to spend all of your PPE first, then you can spend some of your MDC.....

I suspect you are taking the wording too literally.

--flatline

Except that the book specifically says "if the Cosmoknight is out of PPE..." not "instead of spending PPE the Cosmoknight can opt to..."
Thus while a GM could choose to give the ability to use MDC instead of PPE at will, that would be a house rule power.

eliakon wrote:

flatline wrote:

eliakon wrote:Just remember folks.....
By the book a CK can only convert MDC to PPE when they are out of PPE.....
So you have to spend all of your PPE first, then you can spend some of your MDC.....

I suspect you are taking the wording too literally.

--flatline

Except that the book specifically says "if the Cosmoknight is out of PPE..." not "instead of spending PPE the Cosmoknight can opt to..."
Thus while a GM could choose to give the ability to use MDC instead of PPE at will, that would be a house rule power.

The writer probably meant "if the cosmoknight needs to replenish his PPE, he may..." rather than strictly meaning "if the cosmoknight has exactly 0 PPE, he may..."

--flatline

flatline wrote:

eliakon wrote:

flatline wrote:

eliakon wrote:Just remember folks.....
By the book a CK can only convert MDC to PPE when they are out of PPE.....
So you have to spend all of your PPE first, then you can spend some of your MDC.....

I suspect you are taking the wording too literally.

--flatline

Except that the book specifically says "if the Cosmoknight is out of PPE..." not "instead of spending PPE the Cosmoknight can opt to..."
Thus while a GM could choose to give the ability to use MDC instead of PPE at will, that would be a house rule power.

The writer probably meant "if the cosmoknight needs to replenish his PPE, he may..." rather than strictly meaning "if the cosmoknight has exactly 0 PPE, he may..."

--flatline

I don't get that feeling though. I especially don't think you can burn the MDC to get PPE that you put back in your pool. I get the feeling that in desperate cases when you have used up all your PPE and must still try and fight then you can dip into your very life force to get a couple more uses of your powers in. Especially since as many have pointed out that if you can just burn MDC at will then why bother with the PPE pool and its limits at all? The size of the PPE pool means that it will take a long time to regenerate, which to me seems to be a purposeful design feature.

say652 wrote:But can use TechnoWizard devices such as ppe batteries etc.
Also the Fallen Knight being able to become a Mindmelter opens up the psi helm option.

Cosmo Knights are neither magic users nor psychics, they cannot use Techno-Wizard devices. Yes, they have PPE, but that isn't the benchmark for using TW, being a psychic or a mage is.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

say652 wrote:But can use TechnoWizard devices such as ppe batteries etc.
Also the Fallen Knight being able to become a Mindmelter opens up the psi helm option.

Cosmo Knights are neither magic users nor psychics, they cannot use Techno-Wizard devices. Yes, they have PPE, but that isn't the benchmark for using TW, being a psychic or a mage is.

I still play that way and I'm pretty confident that was the original intent when RMB was first published (heck, psychics could only use a sub-set of TW devices!), but that limitation has been so eroded in newer books that I don't think the authors intend for it to be limited anymore. It basically went away when FoM introduced PPE clips.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

say652 wrote:But can use TechnoWizard devices such as ppe batteries etc.
Also the Fallen Knight being able to become a Mindmelter opens up the psi helm option.

Cosmo Knights are neither magic users nor psychics, they cannot use Techno-Wizard devices. Yes, they have PPE, but that isn't the benchmark for using TW, being a psychic or a mage is.

BoM 21
Who can use Techno-Wizard items?
Anyone who can draw upon mystical forces or tap their own PPE, ISP, or even Chi can power and use TW devices. Likewise, those who are open to the supernatural or have large amounts of PPE like children may be able to power and use TW items (often without realizing how).

eliakon wrote:

flatline wrote:

eliakon wrote:

flatline wrote:

eliakon wrote:Just remember folks.....
By the book a CK can only convert MDC to PPE when they are out of PPE.....
So you have to spend all of your PPE first, then you can spend some of your MDC.....

I suspect you are taking the wording too literally.

--flatline

Except that the book specifically says "if the Cosmoknight is out of PPE..." not "instead of spending PPE the Cosmoknight can opt to..."
Thus while a GM could choose to give the ability to use MDC instead of PPE at will, that would be a house rule power.

The writer probably meant "if the cosmoknight needs to replenish his PPE, he may..." rather than strictly meaning "if the cosmoknight has exactly 0 PPE, he may..."

--flatline

I don't get that feeling though. I especially don't think you can burn the MDC to get PPE that you put back in your pool. I get the feeling that in desperate cases when you have used up all your PPE and must still try and fight then you can dip into your very life force to get a couple more uses of your powers in. Especially since as many have pointed out that if you can just burn MDC at will then why bother with the PPE pool and its limits at all? The size of the PPE pool means that it will take a long time to regenerate, which to me seems to be a purposeful design feature.

The belief that the CK can only spend MDC to power powers and abilities when their PPE pool is at 0 is supported by the examples that they give.

From the reading of force field power... it seems to not be a one time buy power. Am i reading it wrong?

I think so. The Extra Damage and Cosmic Blast Focus abilities are powers that cost permanent MDC or PPE to give to your weapons. The Force Field power is an ability that any Cosmic Weapon receives for free.

VR Dragon wrote:From the reading of force field power... it seems to not be a one time buy power. Am i reading it wrong?

No you are not reading it wrong, it is an ability of the Cosmo weapon to generate a force field. You spend the PPE and it creates it

Godslayer wrote:I think so. The Extra Damage and Cosmic Blast Focus abilities are powers that cost permanent MDC or PPE to give to your weapons. The Force Field power is an ability that any Cosmic Weapon receives for free.

You are absolutely correct sir.

So its possible to burn lets say 600ppe for a thirty minute 6000mdc forcefield and still have a weapon that enhances your cosmic blasts!!

Um no.

I guess its house rule, for game balance time.
The ability to create forcefields(a very formidable ability) should require a permanent ppe cost.
The permPpe cost sets the fields limit and activation is twice per hour zero ppe cost.
In my house.

say652 wrote:So its possible to burn lets say 600ppe for a thirty minute 6000mdc forcefield and still have a weapon that enhances your cosmic blasts!!

Um no.

I guess its house rule, for game balance time.
The ability to create forcefields(a very formidable ability) should require a permanent ppe cost.
The permPpe cost sets the fields limit and activation is twice per hour zero ppe cost.
In my house.

If they have 600 PPE after acquiring their Cosmo weapon would be absolutely amazing! But if you want to house rule that it is a permanent cost and that the CK can put up his force field at no cost as much as he wants, instead of having to spend PPE to put a force field that last at most 1 hour and then having to recover the PPE if they spend it all to put the force field up again or spend MDC at 2:1 ratio to spend the PPE to put it up again.

Hmmm... which is more balanced being able to put up a 10-5500 MDC force field twice an hour or spending up to the PPE pool maximum for a force field that last upto 1 hour and can be put up twice an hour then having to recover that PPE or spend your own life to power it?

say652 wrote:So its possible to burn lets say 600ppe for a thirty minute 6000mdc forcefield and still have a weapon that enhances your cosmic blasts!!

Um no.

I guess its house rule, for game balance time.
The ability to create forcefields(a very formidable ability) should require a permanent ppe cost.
The permPpe cost sets the fields limit and activation is twice per hour zero ppe cost.
In my house.

See that doesn't really follow, the ability to create a force field does not have any reason that it should have a permanent PPE cost which is why there isn't one in the book. Force field technology for example is common in the Three Galaxies, along with plenty of magical spells that also provide similar protections and can be renewed easily without any kind of permanent costs involved. Which is why from a game balance perspective being able to create a Force Field is totally NOT a permanent PPE cost thing for the Cosmo-Knight, anybody with the money or magical training can create one. Heck if he wanted to a Cosmo-Knight could go and BUY himself a quality FF harness without much trouble, and probably should and would if you house-ruled that he can't have one without permanently expending PPE to have one.

Godslayer wrote:Force Field is listed apart from the other powers, and under the rules for the weapons it clearly states that the additional powers cost permanent PPE or MDC, which Force Field doesn't mention, (because its just a power that all cosmic weapons get).

I believe you're misinterpreting this. While it is true there is a slight difference in formatting ("Extra damage" and "Energy Blast" are indented with the justified text, 'Force Field' is brought left) I don't think that's meant to represent FF being present in all weapons, and I don't see it saying that anywhere.

Force Field does mention costing 1 point per 10 MDC in the field.

It doesn't say "permanent" but then neither does Extra Damage or Energy Blast. Just 'cost'. We know it is permanent MDC or PPE because of the introduction section.

In fact, because the 'cost' is undefined for Force Field, we can say for sure it is one of the weapon powers. Otherwise, we wouldn't know what the cost referred to.

SpiritInterface wrote:The thought of burning your health to fuel your force field may sound like a good thing until you find yourself running low of health in a battle.

Except you can start burning your health while relying on your armor's MDC.

Health regens as fast as armor (1d4x10) so if you are hurt and with damaged armor, your cumulative MDC is actually healing 2d4x10.

flatline wrote:I suspect you are taking the wording too literally.

It does say "if the character is out of PPE". It introduces a condition. Why introduce it if it's not required? Just say "the character can draw on his own living body" with no condition stated.

eliakon wrote:Thus while a GM could choose to give the ability to use MDC instead of PPE at will, that would be a house rule power.

Agreed. Easy way around this: permanently burn off all your PPE

flatline wrote:The writer probably meant "if the cosmoknight needs to replenish his PPE, he may..." rather than strictly meaning "if the cosmoknight has exactly 0 PPE, he may..."

That's not how 'if' gates work in logic =/ I guess we could track down CJ, ask what he intended (whether or not the text reflects it), and if you're right then maybe appeal to Palladium to introduce it in some rifter/online errata.

eliakon wrote:I especially don't think you can burn the MDC to get PPE that you put back in your pool.

Agreed, it says convert MDC into energy, not MDC into PPE. The energy it converts into would be for doing something like Superluminal Flight (60 (30x2) MDC + 30 MDC = 90 MDC).

Another thing which is slightly less clear would be increasing the power of cosmic blasts. Although it says you can spend 'PPE or MDC', it doesn't necessarily say you can ALWAYS spend MDC. The actual costs given (20 or 50 for doubling, 100 for quintupling, 1000 for duculping, the first and last only being in the character sheet at the back, not the OCC section) are in PPE, not MDC, so it may well be 40 or 100 for doubling, 200 MDC for quintupling and 2000 MDC for decupling. In the latter case (if GM lets you play with the end-book-exclusive data) since chars can't realistically get that much MDC, it's more likely going to be used to supplement an 'almost enough' PPE pool.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Cosmo Knights are neither magic users nor psychics, they cannot use Techno-Wizard devices. Yes, they have PPE, but that isn't the benchmark for using TW, being a psychic or a mage is.

Unless of course you roll to be a minor psionic

Plus, lately a lot of TW gear can be used by anyone, authors seem to forget about the psych/mage exclusivity.

flatline wrote:basically went away when FoM introduced PPE clips.

As suspicious as I found it discussing Juicers liking to use Battlefury blades, maybe they just meant psychic juicers?

VR Dragon wrote:From the reading of force field power... it seems to not be a one time buy power. Am i reading it wrong?

It says you can only get 1 power, but I'm not sure if there's any problem with spending more PPE or MDC at later levels to upgrade your forcefield with more MDC, or to upgrade weapon damage further. Energy Blast is pretty much 1-buy though since there's no variable costs.

SpiritInterface wrote:

VR Dragon wrote:From the reading of force field power... it seems to not be a one time buy power. Am i reading it wrong?

No you are not reading it wrong, it is an ability of the Cosmo weapon to generate a force field. You spend the PPE and it creates it

Godslayer wrote:I think so. The Extra Damage and Cosmic Blast Focus abilities are powers that cost permanent MDC or PPE to give to your weapons. The Force Field power is an ability that any Cosmic Weapon receives for free.

You are absolutely correct sir.

LOL no. VRD, GS, SI, you're just wrong here guys.

The cost "1 per 10 MDC" refers to something. What does it refer to?

The only context is PPE or MDC since it is part of the discussion of permanently spending those for weapon powers.

It being weirdly out-dented doesn't change this.

SpiritInterface wrote:if you want to house rule that it is a permanent cost and that the CK can put up his force field at no cost as much as he wants

That's not a house-rule, it's how the power works.

Nightmask wrote:the ability to create a force field does not have any reason that it should have a permanent PPE cost which is why there isn't one in the book. Force field technology for example is common in the Three Galaxies, along with plenty of magical spells that also provide similar protections and can be renewed easily without any kind of permanent costs involved. Which is why from a game balance perspective being able to create a Force Field is totally NOT a permanent PPE cost thing for the Cosmo-Knight, anybody with the money or magical training can create one. Heck if he wanted to a Cosmo-Knight could go and BUY himself a quality FF harness without much trouble, and probably should and would if you house-ruled that he can't have one without permanently expending PPE to have one.

If you want to argue that force field does not specify a permanent cost then you must acknowledge that Energy Blast and Extra Damage also do not specify their cost as permanent.

All 3 powers also do not specify what the cost is. They just say:
ED "d6x for 15 points, or 2d4 for 30 points"
EB "costs 40 points"
FF "cost: 1 per every 10"

To know what variable these 3 costs refer to, you look up, "cost of a permanent sacrifice of either MDC or PPE points".

Force Field is part of this, it is one of the powers, because otherwise there is no contest to explain the cost. For all I know, it might cost Chi or ISP.

It costs permanent points to acquire and nothing at all to activate.

Complaints about balance vs naruni FFs: those cost money, they can be destroyed, they can be visible, they can be bypassed, they may set off metal detectors, they use up e-clips unless the cosmo-knight installs them in PA, etc.

Note that earlier "can possess one of a variety of powers".

Does 2 sound like a variety? Even 3 is barely a variety (grounds for GMs to invent more ideas I guess?).

Tor wrote:

Godslayer wrote:Force Field is listed apart from the other powers, and under the rules for the weapons it clearly states that the additional powers cost permanent PPE or MDC, which Force Field doesn't mention, (because its just a power that all cosmic weapons get).

I believe you're misinterpreting this. While it is true there is a slight difference in formatting ("Extra damage" and "Energy Blast" are indented with the justified text, 'Force Field' is brought left) I don't think that's meant to represent FF being present in all weapons, and I don't see it saying that anywhere.

Force Field does mention costing 1 point per 10 MDC in the field.

It doesn't say "permanent" but then neither does Extra Damage or Energy Blast. Just 'cost'. We know it is permanent MDC or PPE because of the introduction section.

Yes it does in the sentence "One additional power can be given to ther weapon, at the cost of a permanent sacrifice of either MDC or PPE points (players choice of which one he sacrifices):"

Tor wrote:In fact, because the 'cost' is undefined for Force Field, we can say for sure it is one of the weapon powers. Otherwise, we wouldn't know what the cost referred to.

The extra damage and energy blast descriptions are indented to indicate that they are the two choices that you get for "One additional power can be given to their weapon, at the cost of a permanent sacrifice of either MDC or PPE points (players choice of which one he sacrifices):" the player chooses either extra damage, an energy blast or neither.

The force field is a completely separate ability of the Cosmo Weapon as indicated by it's lack of being indented, and can be put up at a cost of 1 PPE per 10 MDC and last for one hour or until depleted, and it can be put up twice per hour.

Tor wrote:Another thing which is slightly less clear would be increasing the power of cosmic blasts. Although it says you can spend 'PPE or MDC', it doesn't necessarily say you can ALWAYS spend MDC. The actual costs given (20 or 50 for doubling, 100 for quintupling, 1000 for duculping, the first and last only being in the character sheet at the back, not the OCC section) are in PPE, not MDC, so it may well be 40 or 100 for doubling, 200 MDC for quintupling and 2000 MDC for decupling. In the latter case (if GM lets you play with the end-book-exclusive data) since chars can't realistically get that much MDC, it's more likely going to be used to supplement an 'almost enough' PPE pool.

You are over complicating things again. The Cosmic blast at 1st level does 1D6x10 or 2D6x10 if fired through the Cosmo weapon (if that power is the one chosen). The CK while in space can spend 50 PPE (or MDC) out of his pool to double the damage of the Blast. Or for the cost of 100 PPE (or MDC) for a 5x multiplier to the Blast.

Tor wrote:

SpiritInterface wrote:

VR Dragon wrote:From the reading of force field power... it seems to not be a one time buy power. Am i reading it wrong?

No you are not reading it wrong, it is an ability of the Cosmo weapon to generate a force field. You spend the PPE and it creates it

Tor wrote:

Godslayer wrote:I think so. The Extra Damage and Cosmic Blast Focus abilities are powers that cost permanent MDC or PPE to give to your weapons. The Force Field power is an ability that any Cosmic Weapon receives for free.

You are absolutely correct sir.

LOL no. VRD, GS, SI, you're just wrong here guys.

The cost "1 per 10 MDC" refers to something. What does it refer to?

The only context is PPE or MDC since it is part of the discussion of permanently spending those for weapon powers.

It being weirdly out-dented doesn't change this.

Yes it does. It indicates that it is a completely separate ability of the Cosmo Weapon.

Tor wrote:

SpiritInterface wrote:if you want to house rule that it is a permanent cost and that the CK can put up his force field at no cost as much as he wants

That's not a house-rule, it's how the power works.

that is one opinion

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:the ability to create a force field does not have any reason that it should have a permanent PPE cost which is why there isn't one in the book. Force field technology for example is common in the Three Galaxies, along with plenty of magical spells that also provide similar protections and can be renewed easily without any kind of permanent costs involved. Which is why from a game balance perspective being able to create a Force Field is totally NOT a permanent PPE cost thing for the Cosmo-Knight, anybody with the money or magical training can create one. Heck if he wanted to a Cosmo-Knight could go and BUY himself a quality FF harness without much trouble, and probably should and would if you house-ruled that he can't have one without permanently expending PPE to have one.

If you want to argue that force field does not specify a permanent cost then you must acknowledge that Energy Blast and Extra Damage also do not specify their cost as permanent.

All 3 powers also do not specify what the cost is. They just say:
ED "d6x for 15 points, or 2d4 for 30 points"
EB "costs 40 points"
FF "cost: 1 per every 10"

To know what variable these 3 costs refer to, you look up, "cost of a permanent sacrifice of either MDC or PPE points".

Force Field is part of this, it is one of the powers, because otherwise there is no contest to explain the cost. For all I know, it might cost Chi or ISP.

The fact that the Force Field was specifically not indented indicates that it is a completely separate ability of the Cosmo Weapon.

We can argue back and forth as to whether the indent or lack there of matters until the heat death of the universe but until Kevin Siembieda comes out and says one way or the other it will be up to us as to how we or our GMs decide to interpret it.

SpiritInterface wrote:Yes it does in the sentence "One additional power can be given to ther weapon, at the cost of a permanent sacrifice of either MDC or PPE points (players choice of which one he sacrifices):"

I am talking about 'permanent' not being mentioned within the description of the individual powers. It being mentioned in the introduction and unspecified within the powers means the 3 are part of a set.

SpiritInterface wrote:The extra damage and energy blast descriptions are indented to indicate that they are the two choices that you get for "One additional power can be given to their weapon, at the cost of a permanent sacrifice of either MDC or PPE points (players choice of which one he sacrifices):" the player chooses either extra damage, an energy blast or neither.

I find this jumping to conclusions. Being indented differently does not eliminate it as a candidate for the set. It's probably not the first time Palladium Books' products have had unusual indentations that deviate from a standardized format.

How many other examples of that will you require seeing before understanding this may be the case here?

SpiritInterface wrote:The force field is a completely separate ability of the Cosmo Weapon as indicated by it's lack of being indented, and can be put up at a cost of 1 PPE per 10 MDC and last for one hour or until depleted, and it can be put up twice per hour.

You are making the claim "1 PPE per 10 MDC".

Please source your claim.

The description of the power makes no mention of paying PPE.

Also wondering, if you are right and this is a power of all cosmic weapons, why there is no mention of this being a power of the cosmic weapon created by the NPC in the Dyval dimension book.

SpiritInterface wrote:You are over complicating things again. The Cosmic blast at 1st level does 1D6x10 or 2D6x10 if fired through the Cosmo weapon (if that power is the one chosen).

That is incorrect, buying the feature doubles range, not damage. Damage is +10 MD.

SpiritInterface wrote:The CK while in space can spend 50 PPE (or MDC) out of his pool to double the damage of the Blast. Or for the cost of 100 PPE (or MDC) for a 5x multiplier to the Blast.

Please source these claims.

Only PPE costs are assigned to the energy blast booster. MDC costs are not.

While we are told they can spend MDC to boost the energy blasts, we are not told how much MDC.

The logical conclusion here is that this is a reference to the ability to sacrifice personal MDC to count as PPE on a 2:1 basis, which is presented later.

SpiritInterface wrote:It indicates that it is a completely separate ability of the Cosmo Weapon.

The lack of a context of cost ("1 point per 10 MDC", what 'point' refers to is not specified within the power) indicates it is part of the powers you can buy with permanent PPE or MDC.

Otherwise, there is no actual cost for the power and you cannot buy it or use it in any way.

SpiritInterface wrote:that is one opinion

Our two opinions can be weighed on the logical conclusions and by reading the text very specifically.

I have pointed out above how your summaries of the rules are incorrect.

You have wrongly assigned a PPE cost to a power which is not given one.

You have wrongly stated how a power enhances damage.

If your premise is correct, and only (1) weapon damage and (2) energy blast are the powers you spend permanent PPE/MDC for, then we have absolutely no cost for (3) force field.

It is not stated to use PPE. You can only know what it is points of by considering it part of the set.

Only by considering it of the set of powers bought for a weapon by permanent PPE or MDC sacrifice is this actually a usable power for the game.

Nothing is mentioned about being able to temporarily spend PPE to use this power.

SpiritInterface wrote:The fact that the Force Field was specifically not indented indicates that it is a completely separate ability of the Cosmo Weapon.

No, it doesn't. It indictes that word processors are weird.

The pattern here is this:
*The two lines below "Extra damage" are indented the same as it
*The three lines below "Energy Blast" are indented the same as it
*The seven lines below "Force Field" are indented 1 aspect further than it

Looking elsewhere in Phase World, heck, on the very next page, we see similar oddness for The Fallen Knights..
*The six lines below 'Alignment' are indented the same as it
*The two lines below 'Attributes' are indented the same as it
*The two lines below 'MDC' are indented 1 aspect further than it

This doesn't mean anything. Numbered lists, sure, but tabs alone cannot be relied upon to mean something so specific as you infer.

You are also ignoring the glaring fact I will repeat one more time:

"Cost: 1 point per every 10 MDC".

This 'point' can only refer to "a permanent sacrifice of either MDC or PPE'.

There is no other context here.

SpiritInterface wrote:until Kevin Siembieda comes out and says one way or the other it will be up to us as to how we or our GMs decide to interpret it.

If all you're going to do is resort to "it's up to us how we decide to interpret it" then why argue at all?

Go decide to interpret Erin Tarn as being a Splugorth for all I care.

The purpose of my arguing here is presenting WHY the conclusions I hold are so. Why I think it holds water. I don't think yours does. You are inventing statistics that are not there.

There is no PPE cost assigned to the Cosmo-Knight Weapon Force Field.

It is a "point" cost referring to an unspecified entity...

Except it IS specified above, because it is the 3rd of 3 weapon powers you can buy.

Tor wrote:

SpiritInterface wrote:The extra damage and energy blast descriptions are indented to indicate that they are the two choices that you get for "One additional power can be given to their weapon, at the cost of a permanent sacrifice of either MDC or PPE points (players choice of which one he sacrifices):" the player chooses either extra damage, an energy blast or neither.

I find this jumping to conclusions. Being indented differently does not eliminate it as a candidate for the set. It's probably not the first time Palladium Books' products have had unusual indentations that deviate from a standardized format.

And aren't you making assumptions that they didn't mean it as a separate section

Tor wrote:How many other examples of that will you require seeing before understanding this may be the case here?

I have seen palladium print it both ways and it could be read either way so what?

Tor wrote:

SpiritInterface wrote:The force field is a completely separate ability of the Cosmo Weapon as indicated by it's lack of being indented, and can be put up at a cost of 1 PPE per 10 MDC and last for one hour or until depleted, and it can be put up twice per hour.

You are making the claim "1 PPE per 10 MDC".

Please source your claim

The description of the power makes no mention of paying PPE..

A reasonable person can infer from earlier sections that they mean PPE, so prove they didn't. As for duration of 1 hour and being able to be raised 2 times per hour it is plainly written in the description of the power.

Tor wrote:Also wondering, if you are right and this is a power of all cosmic weapons, why there is no mention of this being a power of the cosmic weapon created by the NPC in the Dyval dimension book.

Well since I am talking about Cosmo-Knights and only Cosmo-Knights why are you dragging extraneous references into your argument?

Tor wrote:

SpiritInterface wrote:You are over complicating things again. The Cosmic blast at 1st level does 1D6x10 or 2D6x10 if fired through the Cosmo weapon (if that power is the one chosen).

That is incorrect, buying the feature doubles range, not damage. Damage is +10 MD.

You are right I miss-read the section.

Tor wrote:

SpiritInterface wrote:The CK while in space can spend 50 PPE (or MDC) out of his pool to double the damage of the Blast. Or for the cost of 100 PPE (or MDC) for a 5x multiplier to the Blast.

Please source these claims.

Only PPE costs are assigned to the energy blast booster. MDC costs are not.

While we are told they can spend MDC to boost the energy blasts, we are not told how much MDC.

The logical conclusion here is that this is a reference to the ability to sacrifice personal MDC to count as PPE on a 2:1 basis, which is presented later.

"in space, the Cosmo-Knight can spend PPE or MDC to increase the power of the Beams: 50PPE to double the damage or 100PPE to multiply by five! This multiple applies to every blast fired during the entire melee round." DB2 Phase World {page 101, second column, second section down '3. Cosmic Blast'} Yes it is reasonable to infer that the MDC to PPE conversion rate is 2:1, but since you are the one demanding a literal interpretation of things as written...

Tor wrote:

SpiritInterface wrote:It indicates that it is a completely separate ability of the Cosmo Weapon.

The lack of a context of cost ("1 point per 10 MDC", what 'point' refers to is not specified within the power) indicates it is part of the powers you can buy with permanent PPE or MDC.

Otherwise, there is no actual cost for the power and you cannot buy it or use it in any way.

It lists a cost and since all the other sections have the cost in PPE or MDC it is reasonable to infer that it means PPE or MDC.

Tor wrote:

SpiritInterface wrote:that is one opinion

Our two opinions can be weighed on the logical conclusions and by reading the text very specifically.

I have pointed out above how your summaries of the rules are incorrect.

You have wrongly assigned a PPE cost to a power which is not given one.

You have wrongly stated how a power enhances damage.

Yes I miss-read and miss-quoted the Cosmic Blast as fired through the weapon, it reads a normal blast is normal damage+10MDC, in space and boosted it does either double normal damage+10MDC (50PPE) or five times normal damage+10MDC (100PPE).

Tor wrote:If your premise is correct, and only (1) weapon damage and (2) energy blast are the powers you spend permanent PPE/MDC for, then we have absolutely no cost for (3) force field.

It is not stated to use PPE. You can only know what it is points of by considering it part of the set.

It can be inferred since all the costs under the Cosmo-Knight is either PPE or MDC and it can be taken that the cost is in PPE.

Tor wrote:Only by considering it of the set of powers bought for a weapon by permanent PPE or MDC sacrifice is this actually a usable power for the game.

well that's not true, since the group I game with has been playing CKs for many years with it as a temporary cost out of the Characters PPE pool. Since this allows the CK to vary the strength of his force field.

Read your way why would anyone take anything other than the force field? You can spend the 50 MDC for the weapon and 600PPE on a 6000MDC force field, why bother buying the extra melee damage or the ability to fire your Cosmic Blast through the weapon?

Read my way you can buy either extra melee damage or extra blast damage and have a force field.

Tor wrote:Nothing is mentioned about being able to temporarily spend PPE to use this power.

true it can be read either way.

Tor wrote:

SpiritInterface wrote:The fact that the Force Field was specifically not indented indicates that it is a completely separate ability of the Cosmo Weapon.

No, it doesn't. It indictes that word processors are weird.

The pattern here is this:
*The two lines below "Extra damage" are indented the same as it
*The three lines below "Energy Blast" are indented the same as it
*The seven lines below "Force Field" are indented 1 aspect further than it

Looking elsewhere in Phase World, heck, on the very next page, we see similar oddness for The Fallen Knights..
*The six lines below 'Alignment' are indented the same as it
*The two lines below 'Attributes' are indented the same as it
*The two lines below 'MDC' are indented 1 aspect further than it

This doesn't mean anything. Numbered lists, sure, but tabs alone cannot be relied upon to mean something so specific as you infer.

There are many typographical errors in the section and since the question was about Cosmo-Knights only that is all I referred to.

Tor wrote:You are also ignoring the glaring fact I will repeat one more time:

"Cost: 1 point per every 10 MDC".

This 'point' can only refer to "a permanent sacrifice of either MDC or PPE'.

There is no other context here.

Well since as you point out it doesn't refer to either PPE or MDC there are many other context here and open to numerous interpretations.

Tor wrote:

SpiritInterface wrote:until Kevin Siembieda comes out and says one way or the other it will be up to us as to how we or our GMs decide to interpret it.

If all you're going to do is resort to "it's up to us how we decide to interpret it" then why argue at all?

Go decide to interpret Erin Tarn as being a Splugorth for all I care.

The purpose of my arguing here is presenting WHY the conclusions I hold are so. Why I think it holds water. I don't think yours does. You are inventing statistics that are not there.

There is no PPE cost assigned to the Cosmo-Knight Weapon Force Field.

It is a "point" cost referring to an unspecified entity...

Except it IS specified above, because it is the 3rd of 3 weapon powers you can buy.

That is one opinion. I stated my case and defended my case, but if you want to start a Sharia v Suni style flame war because I stated that both our versions are valid and that absent clarification from Palladium people will have to decide for themselves, so be it.

The GMs of the group I game with play it as I presented it and it works for us, if you as a GM or as a player can convince your GM to run it you way fine.

SpiritInterface wrote:aren't you making assumptions that they didn't mean it as a separate section

Not at all, it's an assessment based upon it needing to be a power for it's cost to mean anything.

SpiritInterface wrote:A reasonable person can infer from earlier sections that they mean PPE, so prove they didn't.

What earlier section are you referring to? Please specify and explain your reasoning. I find it comical you think I have a burden of proof to disprove your assumption here.

SpiritInterface wrote:As for duration of 1 hour and being able to be raised 2 times per hour it is plainly written in the description of the power.

I did not ask you to source that claim. One of the rare moments where I forget to remove something irrelevant from the quote. Critics: this is why I do it.

SpiritInterface wrote:since I am talking about Cosmo-Knights and only Cosmo-Knights why are you dragging extraneous references into your argument?

I suppose I should have clarified, the NPC in Dyval with a cosmic weapon is an imprisoned Cosmo-Knight.

SpiritInterface wrote:Yes it is reasonable to infer that the MDC to PPE conversion rate is 2:1, but since you are the one demanding a literal interpretation of things as written...

Yes, and as written: there is only a PPE cost, not an MDC cost, so using the 2:1 converison is the only means of actually paying with MDC for this power.

SpiritInterface wrote:It lists a cost and since all the other sections have the cost in PPE or MDC it is reasonable to infer that it means PPE or MDC.

It is part of Power 7: Cosmic Weapon. The most specific cost is that of a permanent MDC or PPE sacrifice.

Why would you look elsewhere, to Power 2 (Superluminal Flight) or Power 3 (Cosmic Blasts) for temporary costs when Power 7 is the actual section it is in?

SpiritInterface wrote:in space and boosted it does either double normal damage+10MDC (50PPE) or five times normal damage+10MDC (100PPE).

I'm a bit unclear whether you would add the 10 before or after damage-multiplication. Order is not always clear in these cases. Happens a lot with critical strikes and damage bonuses too. I think we're channeling Captain Tangent if we continue on this though.

SpiritInterface wrote:It can be inferred since all the costs under the Cosmo-Knight is either PPE or MDC and it can be taken that the cost is in PPE.

It can be inferred to be a permanent cost of PPE or MDC since it is in section 7. The most logical Occam's Razor inference is that it is a power like Extra damage or Energy Blast.

SpiritInterface wrote:the group I game with has been playing CKs for many years with it as a temporary cost out of the Characters PPE pool. Since this allows the CK to vary the strength of his force field.

That's a neat house rule, but there is absolutely no basis for establishing this to be a temporary PPE cost. This is part of Power 7, which only involves the PERMANENT expenditure of PPE (or MDC) to gain 1 of 3 powers for the weapon.

SpiritInterface wrote:Read your way why would anyone take anything other than the force field? You can spend the 50 MDC for the weapon and 600PPE on a 6000MDC force field, why bother buying the extra melee damage or the ability to fire your Cosmic Blast through the weapon?

I suggest you ponder on the advantages that doubled range or double the damage from your long-range MD throwing weapon could possibly provide. There are definitely advantages to having these which make them competetive even with a high-tolerence force field.

SpiritInterface wrote:true it can be read either way.

Wrong, it can be read only one way: the "cost: 1 point" refers to "the cost of a permanent sacrifice of either MDC or PPE". There is absolutely no mention of a temporary sacrifice of PPE being substitutable. There is no inference that the temporary PPE expended for powers 2 and 3 relate in any way to power 7.

SpiritInterface wrote:since as you point out it doesn't refer to either PPE or MDC there are many other context here and open to numerous interpretations.

"points" rather than "PPE or MDC" is also the case for Extra damage and Energy Blast.

Force Field follows the same pattern. It mentions 'points' because 'points of what' (PPE or MDC) has already been answered earlier in the section.

There are not other contexts here, there is only a single context and a single interpretation of validity.

SpiritInterface wrote:I stated my case and defended my case, but if you want to start a Sharia v Suni style flame war because I stated that both our versions are valid

What you have stated about your 'case' is not a defense at all. I am not flaming you, I am simply saying my version is valid and yours is not, and explaining why.

Tor wrote:Quote, quote, blah, blah, beat a dead horse, beat a dead horse...

Keep flogging away...

Tor wrote:

SpiritInterface wrote:That is one opinion. I stated my case and defended my case, but if you want to start a Sharia v Suni style flame war because I stated that both our versions are valid and that absent clarification from Palladium people will have to decide for themselves, so be it.

What you have stated about your 'case' is not a defense at all. I am not flaming you, I am simply saying my version is valid and yours is not, and explaining why.

Just because you just dismiss my premise and argument, does not invalidate them. It just makes you seem petty and petulant, and unable to accept other points of view.

Since I know and have gamed with other people who have made the same interpretation on their own with out any input from me, your dismissing of the premise out of hand implies that you think we are too stupid to understand the game, and that yours is the only interpretation that will be accepted.

The 1 point you pay does not specify PPE. It specifies nothing.

Like the 2 other preceding powers for the weapons, you can determine the cost as a permanent MDC or PPE sacrifice.

No other cost context is presented.