Forums of the Megaverse®

Apologies for stealing Jedi's thunder, but his line in The Rind Cutters thread was too good to pass up. The line in question is thus: "which realistic there's no way in all get out the Invid would let somebody set up shop on" in reference to Moon Base ALuCE. Now I'm nowhere near the strategic or tactical genius the military would want to have on hand, but I agree with him 100% there. Why in the world would you let your enemy set up a full military base and FOB right in your back yard?

Granted, the Invid are aliens and their ways of thinking are mysterious at best, and I think I remember there being a line somewhere stating that the Invid didn't care about anything other than Earth itself, so maybe there is a reason the bugs didn't smash ALuCE. If I were the Regis I would've followed the evac ships all the way to where they were going, and I'm sure the Moon was one of the first stops.

silvermoon383 wrote:Apologies for stealing Jedi's thunder, but his line in The Rind Cutters thread was too good to pass up. The line in question is thus: "which realistic there's no way in all get out the Invid would let somebody set up shop on" in reference to Moon Base ALuCE. Now I'm nowhere near the strategic or tactical genius the military would want to have on hand, but I agree with him 100% there. Why in the world would you let your enemy set up a full military base and FOB right in your back yard?

Granted, the Invid are aliens and their ways of thinking are mysterious at best, and I think I remember there being a line somewhere stating that the Invid didn't care about anything other than Earth itself, so maybe there is a reason the bugs didn't smash ALuCE. If I were the Regis I would've followed the evac ships all the way to where they were going, and I'm sure the Moon was one of the first stops.

Short answer: She didn't care. All she cared about was obtaining a new home and a new source of the flower of life. The way the Invid viewed us was what we view rodents as, at best we leave them alone, worse we exterminate/experiment on.

When humanity evac from earth she got what she wanted, for them to be driven off. Once that was done she attended to other things. You also have to remember she isn't an omnipotent goddess, she has limits. She might have just whizzed by Luna without giving a second glance and only had eyes on the goal.

The impression I got was the Invid are more reactive, then active. As long as ships and mecha didn't approach within a certain distance of the Earth, they really didn't care.

We see them act in a similar fashion on Earth, as long as you weren't using Protoculture, and didn't get within a certain distance of a farm or hive, they don't bother you.

I think the logic behind Jedi's think goes along the lines of: The Invid have been involved in a galactic empire, And there for are militarily smart enough to know that the moon is a good place to hide a base of operations since the human had Aluce before the Master came. Leaving a military base of operations that close for a staging area seems rather stupid, especially for a race which has been waging a galactic war for hundred to thousands of years.

in the old return of the Masters the Moon base had to be hidden under the ruins of the surface sections to avoid being attacked by the Invid. While i do agree that the Invid generally take the reactive approach, we do know from the series that the Invid will not allow the humans to build up a force in a single location which could post a threat to them. Point K being the perfect example.

silvermoon383, no apology is necessary. The existence of a fully operation Moon Base such as we see in TSC is a big glaring plot hole for the grown up audience that Robotech fans has become. Sure as kids we didn't care. But today the fans analyze everything.

Realistically the Invid would have occupied the entire solar system. Any active human base/installation would have been destroyed. The Inivd would have set up patrols to hunt down any human ships hiding in system. These patrols would have launched from mobile Hive ships. Invid Hives would have then been set up on the various moons throughout the solar system.

Thus in my opinion the UEEF Fleet had to fight their way into the system, destroying the Invid as they did so and eventually pushed the Invid back to Earth. This campaign alone probably lasted a few months. Even then one has to wonder why the UEEF would have refurbished the moon base as a staging point for the final assault when they could have just folded a Robotech factory on the darkside of the moon.

The REGENT was the Invid interested in a galactic empire, if only so he could watch it all burn. The Regis just sort of said; 'You go do your own rotten thing, Regent, because I'm more interested in EVOLUTION." Between the two of them, the Regis likely had the less strategic mind when it came to military matters, or not terribly imaginative when it came to such things. Otherwise, she'd have pursued the humans out to the asteroid belt and set up a line of defense that put Earth well out of orbital bombardment range.
Now the Regent would likely have poured Inorganics onto the Moon and marched them completely around the satellite, and shot down anything trying to make orbit.

Had a thought on the way to dinner:

Did no one in the UEEF leadership read Heinlein? Could've saved a bunch of ships by setting up a mass driver at ALuCE and chucking a few moon rocks at the Regis.

silvermoon383 wrote:Had a thought on the way to dinner:

Did no one in the UEEF leadership read Heinlein? Could've saved a bunch of ships by setting up a mass driver at ALuCE and chucking a few moon rocks at the Regis.

Probably because if the Regis DID have a way of pushing away fast dumb rocks, those projectiles are coming down on friendly territory.
That would get the natives even more peeved at the UEEF before revelations of the Neutron-S missiles hit the fan....

silvermoon383 wrote:Had a thought on the way to dinner:

Did no one in the UEEF leadership read Heinlein? Could've saved a bunch of ships by setting up a mass driver at ALuCE and chucking a few moon rocks at the Regis.

I'm going to guess that no one who worked on an animated Robotech project never read Heinlein...

I would say the reason that wasn't done is because a few asteroids hitting Earth might not be too healthy for the people living on the planet.

taalismn wrote:

silvermoon383 wrote:Had a thought on the way to dinner:

Did no one in the UEEF leadership read Heinlein? Could've saved a bunch of ships by setting up a mass driver at ALuCE and chucking a few moon rocks at the Regis.

Probably because if the Regis DID have a way of pushing away fast dumb rocks, those projectiles are coming down on friendly territory.
That would get the natives even more peeved at the UEEF before revelations of the Neutron-S missiles hit the fan....

Could of just used a space craft hull;....ahh...that what they built to put the N-S missile in to; as a Heinlein missile.....super KEW.

But what do we Hard Sciance sci-fi fans know about Space Opera science?*sardonicly*

jedi078 wrote:

silvermoon383 wrote:Had a thought on the way to dinner:

Did no one in the UEEF leadership read Heinlein? Could've saved a bunch of ships by setting up a mass driver at ALuCE and chucking a few moon rocks at the Regis.

I'm going to guess that no one who worked on an animated Robotech project never read Heinlein...

I would say the reason that wasn't done is because a few asteroids hitting Earth might not be too healthy for the people living on the planet.

That and because the force fields on the hives (which seem to be strong enough to with stand orbital bombardment from City Smashing Particle Beam canon) meant that simply "nuking it from orbit" seemed to not have been an option. There might have been a reason that they were launching a mecha invasion of the main hive rather than Rain of Death II......

Don't forget, earth is a deeply wounded world after the 1st war. Dropping enough tonnage of rocks to wipeout the invid, even if it actually works, would cause enough ecological disruption to match the great mass extinction events like chixulub 65 million years before. Earth had already suffered through one even worse only three decades earlier.. another one wouldn't leave much left over.

The ueef was ready to employ the nuetron-s missiles to wipe out the invid... but they were aware that doing so would certainly leave earth completely uninhabitable. (This is evident in both the show and the prelude comic)

The N-S missiles were obviously, from dialog, weapons of absolute last resort, only to be used if everything else failed. The ueef clearly wanted to get earth intact if possible.

taalismn wrote:The REGENT was the Invid interested in a galactic empire, if only so he could watch it all burn. The Regis just sort of said; 'You go do your own rotten thing, Regent, because I'm more interested in EVOLUTION." Between the two of them, the Regis likely had the less strategic mind when it came to military matters, or not terribly imaginative when it came to such things. Otherwise, she'd have pursued the humans out to the asteroid belt and set up a line of defense that put Earth well out of orbital bombardment range.
Now the Regent would likely have poured Inorganics onto the Moon and marched them completely around the satellite, and shot down anything trying to make orbit.

I will not argue who was and was not interested in the Building of an empire, Or if she did not want revenge in the beginning.

But She was bound and determined to protect her children and the only known source of the Flower Of Life in the galaxy. I think she would have set up a better parameter defense then shown. Its not a matter of who wants to control the universe more here. its protecting the two things she values.

silvermoon383 wrote:The line in question is thus: "which realistic there's no way in all get out the Invid would let somebody set up shop on" in reference to Moon Base ALuCE. Now I'm nowhere near the strategic or tactical genius the military would want to have on hand, but I agree with him 100% there. Why in the world would you let your enemy set up a full military base and FOB right in your back yard?

Granted, the Invid are aliens and their ways of thinking are mysterious at best, and I think I remember there being a line somewhere stating that the Invid didn't care about anything other than Earth itself, so maybe there is a reason the bugs didn't smash ALuCE. If I were the Regis I would've followed the evac ships all the way to where they were going, and I'm sure the Moon was one of the first stops.

We also have to consider that the Invid Regis might not have the resources built up to do what some think they should do as far as force projection goes. In Ep85 (TSC time line 2044 date) Sera does mention that at that point in time the Invid where at a numbers disadvantage "Mother perhaps what he says would not be a miss in light of their numerical advantage". If this is 2044 and the Invid consider themselves at a numerical disadvantage (not a technological one), it is possible they don't have the numbers to control much more than Earth. Remember the Regis isn't supposed/known to use Inorganics like the Regent does as a force multiplier (granted the Regent uses them on the ground not in the air/space unless Marines corrected this oversight), she uses piloted mecha exclusively (and local "sympathizers").

The Regis may also only see Earth as sovereign "Invid Territory" and out to a certain radius as being w/n that territory. While the Regis may or may not be interested in what goes on outside of her claimed territory, but she is interested in maintaining boarder integrity. So the Invid might also be "recognizing sovereign boarders" in a manner of speaking.

jedi078 wrote:Realistically the Invid would have occupied the entire solar system. Any active human base/installation would have been destroyed. The Inivd would have set up patrols to hunt down any human ships hiding in system. These patrols would have launched from mobile Hive ships. Invid Hives would have then been set up on the various moons throughout the solar system.

Realistically only IF the Invid had the numbers to be able to carryout this type of operation and mind set that it was necessary. Doesn't Wolfe have a line about Invid behaviour being different on Earth in the show (or was that just the novels)?

jedi078 wrote:Thus in my opinion the UEEF Fleet had to fight their way into the system, destroying the Invid as they did so and eventually pushed the Invid back to Earth. This campaign alone probably lasted a few months. Even then one has to wonder why the UEEF would have refurbished the moon base as a staging point for the final assault when they could have just folded a Robotech factory on the darkside of the moon.

Aside from the production history explanation (don't exist in the OSM). A refurbished moon base might have been more energy efficient to setup (by 2044 the UEEF doesn't have PC to spare to move NS missiles, let alone Liberty in TSC OVA). It is also possible that the RFS was vulnerable to Invid attack in way(s) we don't know about as of yet, but the UEEF did, since they are captured facilities. Both the UEEF and Zentraedi had a fleet stationed to protect it from attack after all, and we can see in various episodes how effective UEEF fleet is at defending themselves from the Invid (before shadow tech, and even then it doesn't appear to be a trump card for the UEEF).

Lt Gargoyle wrote:

taalismn wrote:The REGENT was the Invid interested in a galactic empire, if only so he could watch it all burn. The Regis just sort of said; 'You go do your own rotten thing, Regent, because I'm more interested in EVOLUTION." Between the two of them, the Regis likely had the less strategic mind when it came to military matters, or not terribly imaginative when it came to such things. Otherwise, she'd have pursued the humans out to the asteroid belt and set up a line of defense that put Earth well out of orbital bombardment range.
Now the Regent would likely have poured Inorganics onto the Moon and marched them completely around the satellite, and shot down anything trying to make orbit.

I will not argue who was and was not interested in the Building of an empire, Or if she did not want revenge in the beginning.

But She was bound and determined to protect her children and the only known source of the Flower Of Life in the galaxy. I think she would have set up a better parameter defense then shown. Its not a matter of who wants to control the universe more here. its protecting the two things she values.

She might think that the Earth is far enough away from the Master empire that nobody would come for her. As for why the moon base it could be that the Invid will quickly bliz anything that creates a Fold wake. So the ships have to come out of fold far enough away not to set off the sensor, they come in under normal drives. they would then need someplace to stage any ops.

The impression I got from "The Invid Invasion", and I could be wrong, was that none of the attacks, except the final one were staged from ALuCE. If that's true, the UEEF might have had her looking in the wrong direction.

SRoss wrote:The impression I got from "The Invid Invasion", and I could be wrong, was that none of the attacks, except the final one were staged from ALuCE. If that's true, the UEEF might have had her looking in the wrong direction.

Even then, commonsense would dictate that you check your own backyard(relatively speaking).
Again, though, I suspect the Regis wasn't a great strategic military thinker, nor had as great an imagination for military affairs as her opponents. Insect analogy again, the wasps in your front yard tree don't systematically case and besiege the nearby houses or other trees because they represent a source of possible threats.

The Regis has successfully dominated the planet. Removed all major resistance on the planet. She repelled 3 different Invasion Fleets. She was successful in destroying buildup of forces on the ground.

Her biggest disadvantage is the fact she doesn't have a space fleet... Maybe that is why she didn't dominate the whole solar system?

rem1093 wrote:She might think that the Earth is far enough away from the Master empire that nobody would come for her. As for why the moon base it could be that the Invid will quickly bliz anything that creates a Fold wake. So the ships have to come out of fold far enough away not to set off the sensor, they come in under normal drives. they would then need someplace to stage any ops.

The problem with this is that said fold ships are Reflex Powered, and it is strongly implied that PC is involved in Reflex reactions so you still have active PC emissions going on.

rem1093 wrote:The impression I got from "The Invid Invasion", and I could be wrong, was that none of the attacks, except the final one were staged from ALuCE. If that's true, the UEEF might have had her looking in the wrong direction.

Ep "Invid Invasion" (21st MD) and the mini-comic series "Invasion" (10th MD) do not suggest in anyway that Moon Base was used as a staging point. In the Ep they specifically reference defold operation (visually you couldn't tell due to OSM, granted with some local TV News level CGI, even for the 80s, they might have been able to edit something in IMHO, let alone the "remastered" version to create greater continuity). I would not rule out Moon Base(s) existing and being operational at this time, just that they do not have a role to play in the two invasion attempts we can reference, it/they might be used as a fall back position though.

Tiree wrote:Her biggest disadvantage is the fact she doesn't have a space fleet... Maybe that is why she didn't dominate the whole solar system?

Numbers where proving to give the UEEF an apparent edge in 2044, and not Shadow Tech in the show (since it's nothing "new", the Invid likely have counter measure/procedures for dealing with it). That would seem to be her biggest disadvantage which limits what she can do. Sure she could do some token actions to project power in the Solar System, but such an action would also spread her out more and leave the new homeworld under defended compared to what we saw the Invid do in the show.

Tiree wrote:Her biggest disadvantage is the fact she doesn't have a space fleet... Maybe that is why she didn't dominate the whole solar system?

That's it in a nutshell. She could not hope to project power across the tiny gulf between the Earth and the Moon with any kind of spacecraft and survive the conflict. All the Earth forces would need to do is blast them at stand-off ranges and the Invid would be incapable of firing back (the range on their weapons is incredibly short). If not use of ballistic missiles, at the very least projectile and particle beam fire would have dissuaded the Invid from attempting it. There is also the fact that ALuCE-1 is shown to be on the near-side of the Moon in The Masters War (as the Earth is clearly visible in the skyline in Mind Games). The unnamed base on the far side of the Moon that Sue Graham describes in Reflex Point and is probably shown again in Dark Finale may or may not be Moon Base Luna.

Of course, I don't think the Moon Base 'ALuCE' we see in The Shadow Chronicles can be the same one from The Masters War, given that the Earth would be almost completely under the horizon based on the animation. Of course, it could be ALuCE-2 instead of -1.....

the problem with the whole numbers arguement is the whole, we have no other choice sparks, prepare to launch the N-missiles, thing. The UEEF was losing. to the point they were willing to destroy the planet instead of just leaving it under the Invid's control. So the whole numbers thing is irrelevant, in all wars there are member of both sides that think they are gonna lose.

I would bet that the Regesis could sense the folds in and near the moon, if she can find a small planet light years away. She does not have to be everywhere in the Galaxy, She turns her entire race into pure energy and pops up right on top of them before they can even launch a single mecha. the Earth fell to the Invid in days. The moon would be minutes, one base a small fleet would be nothing for her to dispatch. And yes the Regent was the aggressor of the two, but i have a hard time with the whole she had no tactical skills. She is hundreds of years old and in the beginning she was dead set on revenge with the masters. I am sure she would have learned something about defense.

Maybe ther were more Bases on the Moon,then just One.

After making wokring Artifical gravity the UEG will built base and maybe cities, they send some people to the Moon,living in cities made Under it surface,before the Zentraedi arrive

Do you think they can make a book about it?

Don't forget that the Invid are not a warrior race and have learned what they know the hard way. The Regis isn't a goddess of destruction but creation is the regent even canon any more? Either way he'd be at bed a demi god of destruction not war. They don't do room clearing they do infestation, their primary strategy is victory through numbers. What effective means they have they've or rather the Regis has made from observing others. That being said. The Regis could likely develop anything she has witnessed with experimentation and then mass produce it on a ridiculous scale.

Edit: Then again the only reason she experimented was to make sure of her choice so the human like Invid stage 5 could have been made at any time. So any weapon she sees or any tech that can be organically synthesized should be able to be immediately implemented by her will alone.

gaby wrote:Maybe ther were more Bases on the Moon,then just One.

Based on what's said on the subject in The Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles, there were.

The book's explanation of Moon Base ALuCE identifies it as one of several civilian-run resource stations established on the moon at some indeterminate point prior to the 2nd Robotech War, and that those resource stations were converted into military bases when the Robotech Masters attacked Earth. ALuCE is apparently the de facto headquarters complex among the lunar stations in the 2030's and beyond.

gaby wrote:After making wokring Artifical gravity the UEG will built base and maybe cities, they send some people to the Moon,living in cities made Under it surface,before the Zentraedi arrive

Per AotSC (above), the original purpose of ALuCE and the other stations like it on the moon's far side were to manage resources to facilitate the establishment of colonies on the moon. It doesn't, however, say WHEN those colonies were established except that it was before the 2nd Robotech War and the subsequent militarization of those bases. General Reinhardt also does mention the Luna colonies in 2044 in the final issue of Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles, but their mere existence is all that's mentioned.

If I had to guess, I would assume the moon bases and colonies in Robotech were probably built AFTER the 1st Robotech War's conclusion, as they're first mentioned in the Masters Saga. From what we've seen of ALuCE base, they're probably built into one or more of the larger craters on the moon's surface. (Tommy may have based this on unused production art for Genesis Climber MOSPEADA, which showed the staging areas for the Earth Recapture operations on the moon as being built into and around the larger lunar craters.)

gaby wrote:Do you think they can make a book about it?

Probably not... there's very little material on it. They could probably wring a few pages out of a layout like they did for Reflex Point in the New Gen book, but I doubt they'd get more than that with space colonization

Zer0 Kay wrote:Don't forget that the Invid are not a warrior race and have learned what they know the hard way. The Regis isn't a goddess of destruction but creation is the regent even canon any more? Either way he'd be at bed a demi god of destruction not war.

Most of the metaphysical stuff got canned when Harmony Gold rebooted Robotech in '01... the Regess isn't a goddess at all, she's just evolving into a higher-dimension life form.

(OSM-ly, the reason she never attacked the moon was her forces couldn't reach it... and, as a result, possibly didn't even know that the base was there to begin with. Also, as in Robotech, she just didn't care... she wasn't there to conquer anybody anyway.)

And what would ancient humans call a creature several levels of evolution above them? Capable of turning to energy without the aid of technology? She uses magic because her biotech is sufficiently high enough over humans. Magic = unexplainable power rather than putting a stupid label on it like... "unexplainable power" because.high and lofty minded people don't want to seem like superstitious Neanderthals, when all they are is superstitious Neanderthals who are also afraid of being seen as the stupid, uninformed, unevolved, powerless knuckle draggers they are.

The regius could detect protoculture not matter, the fact that earth had debris fields from previous battles would account for the lack of farsighted planning.