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Psyscape lists two different types of advanced psionics training granting a host of bonuses to the lucky psychic who has one or the other: CS Psionic Training and Psyscape Third Eye Training. In the interests of quantifying them, making them accessible to PCs, and transporting the crunch to other game (BtS, NB, SF, etc.), I present the following. Feedback requested.

These are skills that learned, but they require more commitment than a standard skill. The Psyscape Training mentions taking 10-30 years. CS Training gives physical and combat bonuses. Since H2H skills about the only skills that require more than one skill slot to choose, I'm using those as a model.

The CS training bonuses are comparible to the H2H skills from Rifts Japan. Since those provide more bonuses than H2H Assassin or H2H Martial Arts, I would charge a PC four skills to choose one of those H2H skills. I would allow a PC to pick CS Psionic Training with four skill slots. (Though I could see an arguement for three skills; the bonuses provided by CS Psionic Training aren't quite as much as one of the Rifts Japan H2H skills.)

Psyscape Third Eye Training is a bit trickier. It provides a whole suite of additional abilities and bonuses, but they are all front-loaded, with nothing gained later. It takes the NPCs 10-30 years to learn it. Based on that, I would treat it like a martial art form from N&SS. The longest one of those I can remember is 15 skill slots. The N&SS forms equate those slots to years to learn the skill. That’s a lot of time and skills for a psychic. I would go with the base, and charge a PC 10 skills for it.
Like most H2H forms (barring special cases!), the two types of training are mutually exclusive. You can get bonuses from one or the other, but not both!

Feedback?

Interesting concept, and as a skill cost vs. the benefits (in particular the doubling of power of one super psionic power) that makes sense.

However the only time a PC will potentially have that many skill slots to spend is during character creation. Which at that point why not just write in ex-CS or grew up in Psyscape into their character's background and get the bonuses for free? In fact many psionic character classes still won't have enough skill slots to get the power boost that a Psyscape background can grant.

Or you could grant some specialized local government training equal to the CS bonus or being from some place special like Shang Ri La provides the equivalent of the Psyscape bonus. In your game you can justify it anyway you want.

If you are planning on granting a bonus from a highly powerful psionic setting CS training or Psycape into another setting where the psionics are not nearly as powerful, the characters could be an ex-CS or mundane paranormal investigator from Psycape who after getting sucked through a rift to BtS developed the psychic abilities to go with the psyscape bonus.

I also think there could be a way to allow psychics from other settings to grow outside or parallel to leveling, and perhaps a way to buy individual bonuses with lesser numbers of skills as they level up might work.

42dragon wrote:Interesting concept, and as a skill cost vs. the benefits (in particular the doubling of power of one super psionic power) that makes sense.

However the only time a PC will potentially have that many skill slots to spend is during character creation. Which at that point why not just write in ex-CS or grew up in Psyscape into their character's background and get the bonuses for free? In fact many psionic character classes still won't have enough skill slots to get the power boost that a Psyscape background can grant.

DM fiat always works; if your table is OK with this, then great. But there'll also always be some munchkin who tries to shoehorn in the cool powers without any explanation. This gives you an explanation.

42dragon wrote:Or you could grant some specialized local government training equal to the CS bonus or being from some place special like Shang Ri La provides the equivalent of the Psyscape bonus. In your game you can justify it anyway you want.

If you are planning on granting a bonus from a highly powerful psionic setting CS training or Psycape into another setting where the psionics are not nearly as powerful, the characters could be an ex-CS or mundane paranormal investigator from Psycape who after getting sucked through a rift to BtS developed the psychic abilities to go with the psyscape bonus.

I also think there could be a way to allow psychics from other settings to grow outside or parallel to leveling, and perhaps a way to buy individual bonuses with lesser numbers of skills as they level up might work.

Also true. There's room for a more granular approach to these skills. It's not just something I'm interested in pursuing at this point.

I don't object in principle to using skill slots for Psionic Training, but the execution seems expensive for psychics. I wonder if it might be better to break things up a bit into smaller cheaper skill packages available only to psychics (though non-psychic should also have some skills for specific save vs psychic attacks if one is making skills available like this). I could also see doing these skills as "level" based (ie spread out), so you get something at specific levels (like WP) though doing it every level (like HTH) might be a bit too much.

The one problem with 3rd Eye Training cost being based on HTH styles from Japan, is that Japan is not internally consistent with upgrade costs. I know this because I once looked at determine skill costs to use those styles outside of Japan (and Rifts) in place of the generic HTH:MA form. There was overlaps yes, but there where also a number of exceptions and even contradictions (IIRC).

ShadowLogan wrote:I don't object in principle to using skill slots for Psionic Training, but the execution seems expensive for psychics.

This training is the psychic equivalent to an advanced martial art from N&SS. Those require a load of skills and time.

Sounds like the you are talking about the magi proficiencies that were introducing in the Through the Glass Darkly but for Psychics.

thorr-kan wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:I don't object in principle to using skill slots for Psionic Training, but the execution seems expensive for psychics.

This training is the psychic equivalent to an advanced martial art from N&SS. Those require a load of skills and time.

A load of time I do not have an issue with (just look at Opening 3rd Eye in Psycape text). It is the cost in terms of skill slots.

HU2E does allow one to learn new skill/skill program, but it takes time. That would seem a more logical approach w/n the rules. Character pays time/money to learn the new "skill". It just requires working out where Psychic Training examples fall w/n this model.

By your model for opening the 3rd Eye, very few (if any) psychics could do it because they wouldn't have the skills available. In the OCC model, it does not appear that you can substitute Secondary Skills for Other/Related (based on HTH upgrade costs), in the Skill Program Model you could possibly do it: if you had a high enough education level (IIRC). And we know they certainly don't have "new" skills in that quantity later in level, unless you allow the cost to be spread out (and w/o any benefit apparently).

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Sounds like the you are talking about the magi proficiencies that were introducing in the Through the Glass Darkly but for Psychics.

Something similar in results, if not in execution.

ShadowLogan wrote:A load of time I do not have an issue with (just look at Opening 3rd Eye in Psycape text). It is the cost in terms of skill slots.

I get what you're saying.

The N&SS model for advanced martial arts equates years to skill slot cost. For something this powerful, that's the model I'm hoping to replicate.

ShadowLogan wrote:HU2E does allow one to learn new skill/skill program, but it takes time. That would seem a more logical approach w/n the rules. Character pays time/money to learn the new "skill". It just requires working out where Psychic Training examples fall w/n this model.

BTS 1ED has the same "back-to-school" rules. Splicers has a variant, too. It's a feature of some of the "skill program" subset.

ShadowLogan wrote:By your model for opening the 3rd Eye, very few (if any) psychics could do it because they wouldn't have the skills available. In the OCC model, it does not appear that you can substitute Secondary Skills for Other/Related (based on HTH upgrade costs), in the Skill Program Model you could possibly do it: if you had a high enough education level (IIRC). And we know they certainly don't have "new" skills in that quantity later in level, unless you allow the cost to be spread out (and w/o any benefit apparently).

It would definitely be a 1st-level character skill, not something aquired at a later level without DM fiat. And that really fits the skill description.

Auditing the PCCs in NB, BTS, PFRPG, SF, HU, and Rifts, I find a few that can handle 10 skills from "other" or "elective." or "occ related." But only a few. While I'm OK with a large skill cost (this is a defining ability of the character; it should cost), the fact remains that it's outside the range of the majority of master psychics. That's problematic for defining characteristic.

So, I've been conviced 10 skill slots is too high. Lowering it to 8 puts in within range of more master psychics.

And speaking of Splicers, that interesting book gives us two new skills: Vital Points (Espionage) and Resist Torture (Military). Instead of a percentage, like most skills, they give special attack rules and bonuses to saves, respectively. Shiny.

Dead thread rising!

I've been revisiting Third Eye Training as a skill and thinking about the argument to break it's abilities up into purchasable skills. I find I'm more receptive to the idea now.

Refresher: 10-30 years to learn Third Eye Training. It is broken into the following categories:
1. Radiate their nature. (Half the range for Minor Psychics.)
2. Dreamvision.
3. Transform into energy beings. (270 ISP cost makes it useless for any but Master Psychics.)
4. Sense Supernatural Evil and Magic Energy.
5. Extended Psionic Power. (Master and Major Psychics only.)
6. Special Bonuses. (Bonuses are half for Minor Psychics.)

I'm interested in discussion about how to cost each ability, what their prerequisites might be, and how to classify them.

Personally, I've been tempted to convert all non-xCC psychic powers to skill costs. An initial slot to open up psychic powers, another slot for each of your psychic powers, then another slot to upgrade to Major psionic once you reach a certain threshold. Under my old scheme, powers bought with secondary skills started at level 1 (increasing one level each level thereafter), while those purchased with Other skills started on-level.

Make them a fixed cost, rather than a set of freebies (or, in pre-RUE settings, Major psionics were of varying impact... you either lost a lot, or you might lose nothing).