Forums of the Megaverse®

GRIM-LOCK wrote:Hello long time lurker, first time poster.

I was kind of curious as to what ships were used in the initial pioneer mission?

Were the Garfish and Ikuzaki built later By the KarBarrans after there planet was liberated?

The time line is pretty muddy and I have to admit my Robotech-Fu is not what quite up to the mastery of some of the people on this board.

Thanks

The SDF-3, in its 'Trojan horse/lumpy vegetable' guise.
The Tokaguwa-class battleships
Probably a few refitted Zentraedi vessels as bulk transports
Possibly first-run Garfish, since they still have that 'Zentraedi' look.
Depending on who you ask, any of the Southern Cross's lighter destroyer-classes and early Tristar-class vessels.
Remember, the bigger UEEF vessels can haul along ships in their Fold envelope. It's not advised that you overload it like that, but you can pull along a few non-FTL ships with you(certainly this is standard practice when Captain Grant attempts to use his smaller ship to rescue the much larger, and crippled, SDF-3).

The Pioneer Mission uses the ships we see in Outsiders, Mind Games and Catastrophe. Basically, every ship of the line and transport that the UEF on Earth uses. By the 2nd Robotech War, they are also using the Garfish (Ghost Town) and the variants we see in the wreckage at Point K (Enter Marlene). They most likely are also using the Horizon-class by the 2nd Robotech War (lineart for Point K). Its implied they are using the larger IZUM and Ikazuchi cruisers as well, though its possible the models we see in The Invid Invasion opening shots are from the 10th Mars Division's assault on Earth....

GRIM-LOCK wrote:I was kind of curious as to what ships were used in the initial pioneer mission?

Were the Garfish and Ikuzaki built later By the KarBarrans after there planet was liberated?

Per official canon, the "initial" Pioneer Mission was a solo trip by the SDF-3 to Tirol.

The Expeditionary Forces that followed are said to be a mixture of ships from the Masters Saga and New Generation Saga. The ship designs mentioned to have served the longest are the Tokugawa-class carrier, introduced years before the SDF-3 even left for Tirol, and the Garfish-class escort (which may have been produced specifically for the Expeditionary Force). The description in AotSC for the Ikazuchi-class indicates it formed the backbone of the UEEF fleet for a very long time, and in context with what's said about the Tokugawa-class, was probably commissioned as a replacement for the Tokugawa when the deficiencies of the Tokugawa-class forced the UEEF to pull them off the front lines and relegate them to rear-echelon transport duty. Tristar-class ships are also mentioned as having led squadrons for a time.

Official sources say nothing about the usage of other types of ship, though the RPG suggests that Zentradi ships were used for a time.

The only "new" ships that were introduced to the UEEF forces (that we know about) while it cut off from Earth were the SDF-4 and Shimakaze-class escort.

Not using any RPG sources,

In Little White Dragon, Rick and Lisa obliterate Reflex Point from space in 2017. The entire fleet that bombarded it from space were Zentraedi ships. To me this tells me they had no Earth based ships to use and we know in only 5 years they left for Tirol aborad the Pioneer Mission. That means we are looking at Tokugawas and Tristars according to what would have been developed during those 5 years. Remember, Carpenter's crew said that ship was their home for the past 15 years...that means Tokugawa's had to have been in development in 2014. (perhaps it wasnt ready for flight in 2017 when the Hunters blew up Reflex Point).

It wasnt till after Care Bear land was liberated did the UEEF start construction on a new fleet of Garfish's, Ikazushi's and Horizan-Ts. We also know that the soldiers piloting a Garfish in Ghost Town were there when they were sent back to help the ASC against the Invid, so that means the Garfish had to have been constructed, built, and transported by 2031. If the three year trip still holds up (I think thats just a one time deal though), that means Karbarian had to be liberated by 2028 at the latest, likely before. This would explain how 1) the old coots had a Garfish at their disposal (and CVR-3 Armor and Gallants had to be developed by 2028, supposedly blue prints sent via deep space transmission to Space Station Libery) and 2) how Dana and the 15th left Earth aboard a Garfish in 2031 in Little White Dragon/Live Love Alive (also in CVR-3 armor).

That same fleet was refitted in 2043 in Prelude to get a new look and fitted with syncho cannons and shadow devices as well as new ships getting developed at Space Station Liberty like the Horizan-Z and Crusader Drop Ship

In the episode "Robotech Masters" we see Earth-designed ships of the same type used in the 2nd Robotech War light years away. Combined with Carpenter's statements, its clear that Earth ships were operational by 2015 if you're using the TV series as part of the continuity.

Sgt Anjay wrote: if you're using the TV series as part of the continuity.

Its sad this has to be a qualifier in a forum dedicated to the RPG based off the Show... I cannot imagine this sort of statement being used in a Star-wars RPg forum "Sure Jedi's use lightsabers, but only if you use the Movies as part of the continuity"
but its basically stated that the Tokugawa from Outsiders was at minimum 15 years old... not taking into account that Carpenter may have not been the first Captain "our home for 15 years". It may have been in service for several years before he took command.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:Its sad this has to be a qualifier in a forum dedicated to the RPG based off the Show... I cannot imagine this sort of statement being used in a Star-wars RPg forum "Sure Jedi's use lightsabers, but only if you use the Movies as part of the continuity"

Yea, it is truly sad that this has to be the qualifier......

Kagashi wrote:In Little White Dragon, Rick and Lisa obliterate Reflex Point from space in 2017. The entire fleet that bombarded it from space were Zentraedi ships. To me this tells me they had no Earth based ships to use and we know in only 5 years they left for Tirol aborad the Pioneer Mission.

To me, that only really says that they wanted something with bombardment-suitable firepower to bombard Macross City off the map.

We know for an absolute fact they had Tokugawa-class ships by that point, they appear in the series thanks to the Southern Cross animation spliced into the Macross Saga.

Kagashi wrote:It wasnt till after Care Bear land was liberated did the UEEF start construction on a new fleet of Garfish's, Ikazushi's and Horizan-Ts.

As noted previously, that'd be at odds with the official information that indicates the Garfish-class is one of the oldest post-1st war ship classes, and that the Ikazuchi-class was the backbone of the UEEF fleet for most of its time away from Earth.

The imperative is 'NEW FLEET' with regards to the Ikazuchis and Garfish.
If the Pioneer mission was dependent on shipyards closer to Earth for new ships, I imagine supply lines were getting rather long, especially if a) resources back home with the original Factory Satellite were getting scant, and the Factory itself powering down, b) colonial efforts demanding more of the factory output, and c) growing agitation and changing political demographics in the Southern Cross to quit sending resources out-system, instead of keeping stuff closer to the homeworld.
Now, if the Karbearreans had been spacefaring before Earth, and were serving the Tirolian Empire/Hegemony, they'd have streamlined production methods for both their own and Tirolian designs(and maybe Regent vessels, depending on how heavily the Invid occupied and exploited them), and could provide the UEEF with a larger workforce and source of new ships closer to the theatres of operation and the UEEF forward bases at Tirol, while the shipyards at the latter (and newly acquired Factory Sattelites) were being worked up and brought back online.

the dialog of the prelude comic suggests the karbarreans were more refitting the UEEF fleet with shadow devices and nichols drives more than actually building new ones.

but i suspect they were building stuff to replace losses in the war with the regent though.

glitterboy2098 wrote:the dialog of the prelude comic suggests the karbarreans were more refitting the UEEF fleet with shadow devices and nichols drives more than actually building new ones.

but i suspect they were building stuff to replace losses in the war with the regent though.

"Kinda on the small side, though, donja think?"
"Don't make fun of the dwarves, they did liberate us."

glitterboy2098 wrote:the dialog of the prelude comic suggests the karbarreans were more refitting the UEEF fleet with shadow devices and nichols drives more than actually building new ones.

but i suspect they were building stuff to replace losses in the war with the regent though.

The Karbarrans may also have been responsible for the superfast feat of constructing the SDF-4 in only a year... where previous SDF type ships took closer to a decade to complete.

Seto Kaiba wrote:[

The Karbarrans may also have been responsible for the superfast feat of constructing the SDF-4 in only a year... where previous SDF type ships took closer to a decade to complete.

LEGO blocks...BIG LEGO blocks.

the SDF-4 looks a lot like it was made from bits of the refit SDF-3 (though out of game it was the other way around) so they probably already had all the parts in production, they just had to put them together.

glitterboy2098 wrote:the SDF-4 looks a lot like it was made from bits of the refit SDF-3 (though out of game it was the other way around) so they probably already had all the parts in production, they just had to put them together.

IDK if an SDF ship takes all that long to complete. The SDF-2 was completed on Earth in less than 3 years, along with a complete set of New ASC style ships that were launched and used all around the same time.
The long delay on the SDF-3 is never explained within the context of the show, but the speedy creation of multiple SDF sized ships (1000m +)on earth following the Zentradi's attempted extinction of humanity makes me wonder what exactly made them wait 7 years to deploy the SDF-3... Possibly a man power issue, or they waited on the canon fodder corps to finish training the guys they needed to fill body bags in deep space...

Colonel Wolfe wrote:[ Possibly a man power issue, or they waited on the canon fodder corps to finish training the guys they needed to fill body bags in deep space...

"Your official job title on this vessel is 'Reaction Mass'."

it's also possible the ship was completed earlier, and they were just waiting on reports back from the scout's they'd sent out in 2016 to find the master's .
after all, the original plan was colonization. then suddenly for 2016 it became "find the master's", which suggests a major change in priorities. we know that the pioneer mission still had colonization as #1, but i suspect that "find the master's" became #2..

Glovals plan was to do both... leave the cradle and stop the masters from ever threatening humanity again.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:Its sad this has to be a qualifier in a forum dedicated to the RPG based off the Show... I cannot imagine this sort of statement being used in a Star-wars RPg forum "Sure Jedi's use lightsabers, but only if you use the Movies as part of the continuity"

Yea, it is truly sad that this has to be the qualifier......

It is, but unfortunately, the show itself is full of errors. Like Scott taking over Lancer's body and speaking his lines, with Rand saying "good shooting Scott" when it was clearly Lancer who said and did everything. Unless of course Scott has the psionic ability to possess others (while still effectively piloting an Alpha), took over Lancers body, AND Rand knew he had this power...yet it is never mentioned, is outside the scope of human powers in Robotech, and is never explained.

Or the "Vindicator" sizing error in the end of New Gen.

Or the line in Invid Invasion when the Narrator says the Regiss is the supreme leader of the Invid and she brought ALL Invid with her, when in canon, clearly she is not supreme leader (The Regent controls at least some Invid according to the canon Prelude comic) and she clearly did not bring all Invid as the UEEF is still disposing of the Regent and his forces in 2044 according to Prelude and the new continuity.

I speculate, because Robotech.com is nothing but a store front now, but it seems the canon in order is:

-The Shadow Chronicles movie
-Live Love and Alive (alphas and betas were present in 2031 when Dana left Earth, along with MAC IIIs)
-The Art of the Shadow Chronicles
-Wild Storm Comics (Tiger Destroids were also present in 2031)
-The remastered 85 Episodes from the latest DVD set (they changed the dates from the original to match a 2044 liberation of Earth, but many of the old dialog errors still exist.)

tSC movie is obviously a higher ranking canon than the shows. For example, the conversation with the Regiss prior to her departure...was it just between the Regiss, Scott, and Ariel as depicted in tSC? Or was the whole group there as depicted in Symphony of Light? Is the term the "Children of the Shadow" in reference to the Regiss recognizing Haydonite technology and the term means people whom utilize it as per tSC? Or is it in reference humans living in the shadow of the Robotech Masters and they are a doomed race as per Symphony of Light?

It cant be both. I think it is clear portions of Symphony has been decanonized.

Makes me wonder why they just didnt fix all the conflicting verbiage when they remastered the series...

glitterboy2098 wrote:it's also possible the ship was completed earlier, and they were just waiting on reports back from the scout's they'd sent out in 2016 to find the master's .

The basic ship yes. However something that could add to the time is the need for an exo-skeletal hull and its role as a disguise (which would require research since they didn't go with a stock Zent. ship type).

Kagashi wrote:Or the line in Invid Invasion when the Narrator says the Regiss is the supreme leader of the Invid and she brought ALL Invid with her, when in canon, clearly she is not supreme leader (The Regent controls at least some Invid according to the canon Prelude comic) and she clearly did not bring all Invid as the UEEF is still disposing of the Regent and his forces in 2044 according to Prelude and the new continuity.

This is an issue, but not. While that is what the series tell us, the Regent aspect was introduced post-series. So it isn't the Series being inconsistent its TPTB not following the established events/background (I could see if there was contradictory bits and picking one or going with some explanation to make them both work, but here there is not issue). Sentinels has introduced several inconsistencies . A practice that was carried over in TSC.

It should be noted that the Novel timeline avoided the issue since the Regent was dead by the time the Regis invaded Earth.

Kagashi wrote:Makes me wonder why they just didnt fix all the conflicting verbiage when they remastered the series...

Not in the Budget, availability of voice actors, don't want to do the work to fix issues, etc would be my guess.

Kagashi wrote:It is, but unfortunately, the show itself is full of errors.

Yep, though Harmony Gold has never pretended that it was anything other than shot through with errors... that's often cited as their reason for rejecting various fan theories, the source animation wasn't infallible on its own and the rushed rewrite/dub job also added its own errors to the mix.

Kagashi wrote:I speculate, because Robotech.com is nothing but a store front now, but it seems the canon in order is:

-The Shadow Chronicles movie
-Live Love and Alive (alphas and betas were present in 2031 when Dana left Earth, along with MAC IIIs)
-The Art of the Shadow Chronicles
-Wild Storm Comics (Tiger Destroids were also present in 2031)
-The remastered 85 Episodes from the latest DVD set (they changed the dates from the original to match a 2044 liberation of Earth, but many of the old dialog errors still exist.)

As far as Harmony Gold's public commentary on the matter goes, the hierarchy of sources goes something like this:

• The 85 episodes of the Robotech television series
• Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles & The Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles
• DC/Wildstorm's post-reboot Robotech comics

But in practice, they've treated it more like:

• The Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles movie & The Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles
• The Japanese OSM production material
• DC/Wildstorm's post-reboot Robotech comics
• The 85 episodes of the Robotech television series

Kagashi wrote:Makes me wonder why they just didnt fix all the conflicting verbiage when they remastered the series...

Money is probably a big part of it... Harmony Gold doesn't like to quantify their sales performance, but Robotech's home video sales were only lukewarm at the best of times and the cost of studio time and hiring voice actors has only gone up (esp. thanks to many of the original voice actors having joined the Screen Actors Guild in the intervening years). Also, well, you know as well as I how poorly the fans react to Harmony Gold "changing things"...