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Okay,

since Palladium has seen fit to alter The Sentinels mecha for no discernible reason other than "because", there has to be some explanation for the mecha that were planned for The Sentinels and have appeared in canon animation and comics. So, since they are no longer REF Destroids, I suggest we make lemons into lemonade and go back to a little line in The Masters War and REF Marines Sourcebooks:

Earth is left under the protection of The Army of the Southern Cross and what is left of the United Earth Defense Force.

Its a verifiable fact that we see a MAC III in Robotech: Love, Live, Alive on Earth during the evacuation following The Invid Invasion. We see cannons, that are in the same configuration as the MAC III, firing what appear to be shells in Half Moon. So, why are these mecha not in the REF Marines Sourcebook? Why, they're not REF mecha obviously! They're UEDF mecha and remained on Earth until following The Invid Invasion.

So, I present to you the UEDF Battloids (and I use that term because that is the term listed in The Sentinels Script Books 1 & 2 and Robotech Art 3).

CBH-2 Excaliber
CBM-2 Shark
CBA-2 Raider Mk.1
CBA-2 Raider Mk.2
CBL-3 Gladiator
MAC II Thundercracker

The missiles carried by the Excaliber, Shark and MAC II are all medium range (300mm Prowler). The Thundercracker should have the same gauss cannons as the REF's Monster Mk.III, but carry a larger capacity (more internal storage). It should also have x2 Prowler Missile Pods in each weapons arm (the lineart shows exhaust ports in the back). The Raider Mk.1 has slugthrowing gatling cannons, while the Mk.2 are lasers.

These Battloids probably started off fighting during the early days of The Malcontent Uprisings and were the first new Earth mecha to roll of the assembly lines of Space Station Liberty. They were eventually superseded by the newer Battloids used by The Army of the Southern Cross and assumed a secondary/support position during The Second Robotech War.

Edit: Considering the metric crapload of material left OUT of both the New Generation AND REF Marines Sourcebook, I decided that I would go ahead and list all the remaining vehicles/etc as being UEDF. Eventually, it would be superseded by the Earth Reclamation Force. I'll start on that later....

Edit 2: Just noticed I made a goof. What was called the MAC III in the old RPG is actually listed repeatedly in sources as the MAC II, so I switched it. This will make sense as neither the Thundercracker nor the Tiger (when I get around to it) are listed as Heavy Weapons Robots, but as Mobile Assault Cannons instead. The term Destroid is also abandoned for everything but The Macross Saga and REF Marines mecha in question.

This is one way to justify the existence of the Mac III in LLA... as its clearly not the poorly designed "Monster 2" in the Marines book....

While this approach works for the Mac3/Half-Moon, the other mecha I would think could be handled with variants of existing UEDF battloids by swapping out arms, and maybe including some expansion modules in a manner similar to the VF-1's GBP-1S. They might not equal a 1E version exactly in terms of firepower in this manner, but they would offer increased parts compatibility with the regular versions.

The 1E Sentinels RPG Mac3 is not exactly what is portrayed in LLA OVA screenshot. What we actually see is a variant. 1E RPG has 5 cannons (2 arms, 2 fixed torso, 1 mobile torso) vs LLA OVA shot having 3 cannons (2 arms, 1 mobile torso).

ShadowLogan wrote:The 1E Sentinels RPG Mac3 is not exactly what is portrayed in LLA OVA screenshot. What we actually see is a variant. 1E RPG has 5 cannons (2 arms, 2 fixed torso, 1 mobile torso) vs LLA OVA shot having 3 cannons (2 arms, 1 mobile torso).

Field variant, sacrificing two (damaged) cannons for extra ammunition capacity?

great idea RSCF

ShadowLogan wrote:The 1E Sentinels RPG Mac3 is not exactly what is portrayed in LLA OVA screenshot. What we actually see is a variant. 1E RPG has 5 cannons (2 arms, 2 fixed torso, 1 mobile torso) vs LLA OVA shot having 3 cannons (2 arms, 1 mobile torso).

What was in LLA wasn't the horrid thing Palladium gave us in their latest release... it more strongly resemble the MAC III from the old RPG than either version of the Monster...

@Col. Wolfe
I haven't seen Marines yet (and based on reactions in the other thread, it likely won't be a priority). So how that incarnation of the Monster appears is not what I am considering.

I agree the LLA mecha strongly resembles the 1E Mac3, but there are noticeable differences between the two mecha as displayed in their respective sources. Those differences really set the LLA and 1E-Mac3 as being variants (though we can't say how closely related). The differences between the LLA and 1E mecha are being ignored, what we have is a "highly probability" not a "verifiable fact" since two obvious cannons are now missing from the 1E version in LLA version.

@tal
I don't see how it would get extra ammunition capacity (or at least enough to be worth while, and that assumes no other changes result like putting in AAA weapons for close into defend). The total ammunition capacity likely hasn't changed, what has likely changed is how fast it can go through the ammunition.

ShadowLogan wrote:While this approach works for the Mac3/Half-Moon, the other mecha I would think could be handled with variants of existing UEDF battloids by swapping out arms, and maybe including some expansion modules in a manner similar to the VF-1's GBP-1S. They might not equal a 1E version exactly in terms of firepower in this manner, but they would offer increased parts compatibility with the regular versions.

The 1E Sentinels RPG Mac3 is not exactly what is portrayed in LLA OVA screenshot. What we actually see is a variant. 1E RPG has 5 cannons (2 arms, 2 fixed torso, 1 mobile torso) vs LLA OVA shot having 3 cannons (2 arms, 1 mobile torso).

ShadowLogan - I think your missing the two cannons. It's an ugly screen grab, but there are 5 cannons there.

So you have the three main ones that are seen, 1 on each arm (for a total of 2). 1 in the center (for a total of 3). But if you look at the closest arm, you can see that the barrel bends upwards, that's a 4th barrel. Then the 5th barrel is just behind the center barrel and looks a little off.

So there are 5 barrels.

ShadowLogan wrote:
@tal
I don't see how it would get extra ammunition capacity (or at least enough to be worth while, and that assumes no other changes result like putting in AAA weapons for close into defend). The total ammunition capacity likely hasn't changed, what has likely changed is how fast it can go through the ammunition.

Like altering those rear cylinders into point defense mounts? And adding a faster reloading and barrel cooling system for faster firing?

it looks like a mac 3 to me. the third cannon barrel is behind the middle one leaving just the tip showing.

The UEDF has more than just Battloids for its soldiers and airmen. Given that the REF's Marines are nothing more than cannon fodder (which include quite a few Zentraedi Malcontent criminals), and are subsequently given mecha that are kludged together to boot, the UEDF continues in the same vein as The Army of the Southern Cross in that it obtains the most functional and well crafted mecha to roll off the assembly lines of Space Station Liberty. Given the realities of post-1st Robotech War Earth, the UEDF must share its resource base with the ASC and so gets mecha in smaller allotments following the departure of the REF in 2022. Most of the surviving UEDF armament from the 1st Robotech War either departed with the REF or were mothballed.

AFV-01 Thunderbolt
The main Veritech fighter of the UEDF was the Thunderbolt, made famous by Colonel Jonathan Wolfe during the years before the REF left for Tirol. Like the Condor, it comes in both a transformable and the AF-6DF Vulture non-transformable version.

AFV-03 Condor
While the REF Marines are stuck with the non-transformable version of the Condor, the UEDF retains both the non-transformable Battloid (which would later become a mainstay unit of the UEDF's successor: The Earth Reclamation Force) as well as the transformable ground attack fighter Condor.

Typhoon Transformable Three-Wheeled Cycle
The direct successor to the Garland transformable system, the Typhoon is the primary ground veritech of the UEDF. Produced in numbers, the Typhoon would later become a status symbol among motorcycle gangs on Invid Occupied Earth. A hover-version was in the prototype stage when the UEG fell to the Invid Swarm.

RSCF, do not forget the Tiger Destroids covering the retreat of the 15th in 2031 as they loaded up into a Garfish and donning CVR-3 armor (in accordance with Wildstorm Comic Little White Dragon 1)

Indeed...I was rather hoping for the Tiger in the Marines book, but no joy,,,

Kagashi wrote:RSCF, do not forget the Tiger Destroids covering the retreat of the 15th in 2031 as they loaded up into a Garfish and donning CVR-3 armor (in accordance with Wildstorm Comic Little White Dragon 1)

Heh, don't worry. That will be for my Mecha of the Earth Reclamation Force thread!

Now....

The UEDF, like all other Earth military forces, also maintains a series of conventional ground vehicles among their arsenal. Some of these vehicles were also used by The Army of the Southern Cross and the United Earth Expeditionary Force as well.

Ground-based Mobile Unit
While the REF took the prototype version of this vehicle, codenamed Titan, the UEDF procured the final development form which scaled back the unit considerably. While it retained the ability to transform into an assault platform with a heavy particle cannon, the GMU was mostly to serve as mobile command vehicle capable of being reconfigured for specific missions. Unlike the larger Titan, the GMU was a mere 8m tall, by 10m wide by 35m long. This increased its survivability compared to the more fragile Titan, by allowing for more armor placement due to the reduced weight. This finalized form is far more compact, affordable and survivable than the massive landship version carried by the REF. Other than the significantly reduced size, one of the primary differences between the two vehicles is the abandonment of the "hollow sphere" wheels (which were prone to destruction) in favor of more ruggedized treaded versions that increased its all-terrain capability.

M-23 Highlander Light Combat Tank
Based on the US Army's old M551 Sheridan, the Highlander uses improvements in conventional armor technologies made possible by Robotech science. It comes in several variants including replacing the slug-throwing rifled main cannon with a smoothbore cannon/missile launcher as well as heavy particle beam cannon. It saw extensive use during The Invid Invasion and can be found from time to time among Resistance units on Invid Occupied Earth. Like most of the UEDF and ASC mecha, the Highlander would form the backbone of the Earth Reclamation Force's arsenal.

M-305 Dingo Light Patrol Vehicle
Originally designed for the harsh Australian outback, the M-305 LPV became a much favored Humvee for both the UEDF and later ERF. It was somewhat uncommon on Invid Occupied Earth compared to the more ubiquitous Jeep.

M-310 Karhu Heavy Utility Truck
One of the more common vehicles used by the UEDF, the Karhu is a modular heavy duty truck. Capable of hauling cargo or personnel, it was second only to the ASC's hovertruck. Following The Invid Invasion the M-310, while considerably slower than the hovertruck, was favored more because of its less complex and intensive maintenance heavy engine.

Lt Gargoyle wrote:it looks like a mac 3 to me. the third cannon barrel is behind the middle one leaving just the tip showing.

Yep, if you look more closely you can see all 5 barrels. You can also see the rear-mounted AA-guns(?).

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:

Lt Gargoyle wrote:it looks like a mac 3 to me. the third cannon barrel is behind the middle one leaving just the tip showing.

Yep, if you look more closely you can see all 5 barrels. You can also see the rear-mounted AA-guns(?).

yes i saw the 2 arm barrels as well. I personally will be keeping the older style mecha in play. and just adding the new destroids as the next run.

One problem with the Half Moon theory. Although Half Moon does clearly show three barrels in a MAC III configuration, likely part of the same mecha or vehicle platform...and there is no other known mecha in the ASC with that configuration...the scene in which it shows the cannons firing is proceeded by Nova coming up on comms and arriving with GMP reinforcements. This indicates that the mecha were ASC, and not another service. Perhaps the MAC IIIs were under TACON of the GMP for this engagement?

Kagashi wrote:This indicates that the mecha were ASC, and not another service. Perhaps the MAC IIIs were under TACON of the GMP for this engagement?

Ah, but the UEDF would be subordinate to the ASC at this point. I kind of imagine they are the Robotech equivalent of the Army and Air National Guard units of today. Besides, Supreme Commander Leonard is in charge of all UEG military forces......

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:[
Based on the US Army's old M551 Sheridan, the Highlander uses improvements in conventional armor technologies made possible by Robotech science. It comes in several variants including replacing the slug-throwing rifled main cannon with a smoothbore cannon/missile launcher as well as heavy particle beam cannon. It saw extensive use during The Invid Invasion and can be found from time to time among Resistance units on Invid Occupied Earth. Like most of the UEDF and ASC mecha, the Highlander would form the backbone of the Earth Reclamation Force's arsenal..

Always liked the looks of the M551, although beyond that, it was a disaster, a failed attempt to make an American PT(Soviet amphibious light tank). The constraints of being air-portable meant the aluminum armor provided poor protection, and the problematic Shillelagh main armament killed two vehicles the Army had set high hopes on. The last I heard of these things playing any useful role was mocked-up as Soviet armor for war games in the American desert.
Hopefully the ERF has better luck with its successor.

Ugh, I've never liked the conceit of UEDF and ASC as seperate, since Southern Crossers are referred to as United Earth Defense Forces in the tv series.

Me, I'd no problem with local or UEG member state forces being able to be commandeered under orders of the *Global* Military Police.

Sgt Anjay wrote:Ugh, I've never liked the conceit of UEDF and ASC as seperate, since Southern Crossers are referred to as United Earth Defense Forces in the tv series.

Heh, there is that fact....

Me, I'd no problem with local or UEG member state forces being able to be commandeered under orders of the *Global* Military Police.

Yea, that makes sense too. I can imagine territorial militias (as they are called in the novels) as well as various city-state forces would be subordinate in times of emergency and be required to supply personnel, weapons and mecha to the GMP....

Sgt Anjay wrote:Ugh, I've never liked the conceit of UEDF and ASC as seperate, since Southern Crossers are referred to as United Earth Defense Forces in the tv series.

Me, I'd no problem with local or UEG member state forces being able to be commandeered under orders of the *Global* Military Police.

Hey, people being people, there's always going to be inter-organizational turf feuds, and mergers can get pretty ugly, especially if the respective founders/top administrators don't see eye-to-eye on everything.

Inter-organizational between who? What merger?

Sgt Anjay wrote:Inter-organizational between who? What merger?

ASC and UEDF. Depending on what version of events you buy into. The ASC supplanting the UEDF, while the latter continues on in much diminished form, or the UEDF wholly merging into the ASC.

Ok, but what I am saying is that the Southern Cross as ever not being the UEDF is not a device supported by the tv series. At most they never need be more than a cut off combatant command; heck, most of the instances where the words "United Earth Defense Force" are uttered in the show are during the Masters War.

And in fact, one could (and I would) argue it hurts the cohesion of the show for this to be so.

Great stuff and I do find the Robotech Visions Wiki site quite useful.

Sgt Anjay wrote:Ok, but what I am saying is that the Southern Cross as ever not being the UEDF is not a device supported by the tv series.

Indeed....

And in fact, one could (and I would) argue it hurts the cohesion of the show for this to be so.

Ayep, quite a bit in fact. I only offered this thread because I'm rather baffled by the whole RPG "continuity" that somehow manages to not follow the show it purports to represent....

Well, this edition of the RPG is supposed to be following the current version of Robotech, which doesn't strictly follow the tv series. This Marine book's timeline is pretty out in left field even for that, though.

Still, if there's one thing Robotech fans can do, it's cobbling together from the various versions of Robotech.

As promised here I will start on the Mecha of the Earth Reclamation Force (Cougar, Jaguar, Boxer sketches and color pieces from Robotech Visions drawn by the inestimable Christian Kaw).

This series of Battloids were Pioneer Mission field prototypes deployed to Earth where their first real test came during the fall of the UEG to the Invid Swarm. When the UEF's last field army was destroyed some 3 months after The Invid Invasion, those Pioneer Mission and Army of the Southern Cross forces that had been evacuated to the Moon, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn were reorganized into The Earth Reclamation Force. Lead by such charismatic warriors as Lieutenant Colonel Jonathan Wolfe, General Marcus Green, former UEF Supreme Commander Maistroff and Admiral Rick Hunter, the ERF counter-invaded the Earth late in 2031. Over the years, the forces at the various Advance Bases were resupplied and new mecha were dropped to Resistance forces. In 2038, they were deployed en masse with the First Reclamation Mission by the survivors 10th Mars Division.

AAB-11 Jackal Semi-Variable Air Assault Battloid (Space Mode)
AAB-11 Jackal Semi-Variable Air Assault Battloid (Jump Mode)
CBH-12 Cougar
CBM-13 Jaguar
CBL-14 Boxer
MAC III Tiger

Cougar Prototype and MAC II Thundercracker's deployed to secure Fokker Field

These Battloids utilize much of the same weapons systems as the Alpha and Beta Veritechs to save on maintenance and procurement, including the Hammerhead 190mm Short Range Micro-Missile and Diamondback 250mm First Strike Medium Range Micro-Missile.

Dude, you are hired. Go fix Robotech.

Kagashi wrote:Dude, you are hired. Go fix Robotech.

Well, When Tom Bateman was wokring at HG trying to get the License back to Palladium, He wanted RSCF to be part of the development of the New Edition of Robotech.... to fix many of the problems that the old Edition had without making the situation worse as has happened with the book published since Jason Marker left... its sad that Palladium lost the only good writer to work on the product line....

Kagashi wrote:Dude, you are hired. Go fix Robotech.

Well, since the Robotech Expeditionary Force is now composed of the Navy and Marines, it only makes sense that the Earth Reclamation Force is The Army and their pilots are the ones Scott is referring to in Dark Finale.

I like a lot of your concepts here, though not so much the anti-Marine bias. I'd tweak it as follows:

First off, Marines doesn't say that the Expeditionary Force Marines are cannon fodder; only that “some” see the potential to use them as such if the need arises. (Conjecture: the bulk of the “they're potential cannon fodder” faction are Edwards' people.) The fact that a large portion of the Zentreadi Marines were Malcontents is ultimately meaningless: first, the bulk of the Marines aren't Zentreadi; and second, Breetai's vision for the Marines involved instilling a warrior ethos, discipline, professionalism, and an esprit d'corps — a sense of brotherhood — in its recruits. It's exactly the sort of thing that the Malcontents would take to. End result: by the time they've been retrained by boot camp, they're no longer Malcontents; they're Marines.

But I digress. The question at hand is the Marine Destroids. I could see someone from the pro-“cannon fodder” faction gaining influence over the Marine budget early on and tightening the purse-strings, forcing the Marine engineers to get creative and design a line of Destroids that make extensive use of parts already designed by the new Veritech program — thus the extensive appearance of Alpha parts in the new designs. Since this mix-and-match is being done at the blueprint level by engineers, it avoids the “frankenmecha malfunctions” problem, though it doesn't entirely avoid the frankenmecha aesthetics. The resulting designs are perfectly functional and logistically lightweight, but ugly.

Once the Pioneer Mission arrives at Tirol and the war against the Invid begins, the purse strings loosen up and the Marine Engineers get a chance to go back to the drawing board, resulting in the IMAI Destroid designs — though it takes a few years before the new designs are ready to roll off the assembly lines, just in time to be present during Dana's exodus from Earth.

As for the Destroid designs from Robotech Art 3: the Sentinels: they're not Expeditionary Force designs; but neither are they Defense Force designs — the Armies of the Southern Cross are the United Earth Defense Force. They're not “National Guard” designs, either; that's the ASC's “Civil Defense” adjuncts. No; these Destroid designs are evidence that “Supreme Commander” Leonard's command isn't quite as “supreme” as he wants everyone to believe, and the United Earth Government's control of the globe isn't as thorough as they wish. Somewhere along the line, one of the dissident factions that still has an industrial base gets its hands on Defense Force Destroids from the Macross era, reverse-engineers them, and produces newer models that are smaller and cheaper — and thus within their capacity to produce.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:Well, since the Robotech Expeditionary Force is now composed of the Navy and Marines, it only makes sense that the Earth Reclamation Force is The Army and their pilots are the ones Scott is referring to in Dark Finale.

The United Earth's Army, Air Force, National Guard, and “Gendarme” (collectively, the ASC) was all but wiped out by the Regess' assault on Earth in 2030. However, I could see the remnants who escaped during Dana's exodus spending the next eight years or so rebuilding the ASC as the Earth Reclamation Force.

Under this scenario, General Edwards (commander of the Army and Air Force units attached to the Pioneer Mission: see Marines Sourcebook p.63 for support that there were VHTs and Logans in the early days of the mission; it's not a stretch to say that Edwards was in charge of them) sent Wolfe to Earth to get rid of a thorn in his side, but ended up trading one thorn for an even bigger set of thorns in the form of Dana Sterling, Marie Crystal, and their comrades. Rather than showing up in the early 2040s right after Edwards' fall (which would pose the question of where she was for over a decade), her arrival and subsequent activities could be part of the story of Edwards' eventual downfall.

Of course, under this scenario, you also have to ask why the Expeditionary Force's ATAC attachments aren't still using some form of VHTs in the late 30s/early 40s…

A different though I've been having is based on the missile systems of the Marine models compared to the Sentinel models. Specifically the "mini-missiles."

The MM launchers on the Marine designs are definitely using the larger Macross style weapons from the G1 destroids. Meanwhile the Sentinel designs carry launchers that look like they're designed to use the MM's from the Cyclone systems, which would seem to have been developed to their full potential during the UEEF's mission. This would suggest the Sentinel models were designed later.

So, what if the Sentinel destroids really are the SENTINEL destroids.

Let's take our industrious friends, the Karbarans, and do a little supposing. With the industrial resources of their planet freed up after its liberation they begin using not just their space facilities but their ground factories as well to support the mission against the Regent. Needing mecha to fit their overlarge frames and preferring the destroid designs with the extra space in the cockpits (if you remove the co-pilot/gunner position), they successfully lobby the UEEF to begin producing models on their world. However a few new technologies have come into play and the design team wants to integrate them while fixing a few of the more "cosmetic" flaws they see in the designs (due to being tech-head busybodies that just can't leave well enough alone). The result would be the S model Destroids. Pretty much matching the performance and specs of the Marine models with a few minor changes in the location of things like the missile and mini-missile launchers and a few odd-ball changes like mounting the lasers on the Tomahawk on the chest/head blocky thingy and making the arm blade an optional add-on instead of the standard.

For the MM launchers I would keep the stats mostly the same but with the new positions, even though smaller they carry the same number of the smaller missiles and launch tubes.

Still, I would love to see some seriously updated art for the S Destroids, the art done for the Sentinel series was rather weak in my opinion.

-POUNCER

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:Okay,

since Palladium has seen fit to alter The Sentinels mecha for no discernible reason other than "because", there has to be some explanation for the mecha that were planned for The Sentinels and have appeared in canon animation and comics. So, since they are no longer REF Destroids, I suggest we make lemons into lemonade and go back to a little line in The Masters War and REF Marines Sourcebooks:

Earth is left under the protection of The Army of the Southern Cross and what is left of the United Earth Defense Force.

Its a verifiable fact that we see a MAC III in Robotech: Love, Live, Alive on Earth during the evacuation following The Invid Invasion. We see cannons, that are in the same configuration as the MAC III, firing what appear to be shells in Half Moon. So, why are these mecha not in the REF Marines Sourcebook? Why, they're not REF mecha obviously! They're UEDF mecha and remained on Earth until following The Invid Invasion.

So, I present to you the UEDF Battloids (and I use that term because that is the term listed in The Sentinels Script Books 1 & 2 and Robotech Art 3).

CBH-2 Excaliber
CBM-2 Shark
CBA-2 Raider Mk.1
CBA-2 Raider Mk.2
CBL-3 Gladiator
MAC II Thundercracker

The missiles carried by the Excaliber, Shark and MAC II are all medium range (300mm Prowler). The Thundercracker should have the same gauss cannons as the REF's Monster Mk.III, but carry a larger capacity (more internal storage). It should also have x2 Prowler Missile Pods in each weapons arm (the lineart shows exhaust ports in the back). The Raider Mk.1 has slugthrowing gatling cannons, while the Mk.2 are lasers.

These Battloids probably started off fighting during the early days of The Malcontent Uprisings and were the first new Earth mecha to roll of the assembly lines of Space Station Liberty. They were eventually superseded by the newer Battloids used by The Army of the Southern Cross and assumed a secondary/support position during The Second Robotech War.

Edit: Considering the metric crapload of material left OUT of both the New Generation AND REF Marines Sourcebook, I decided that I would go ahead and list all the remaining vehicles/etc as being UEDF. Eventually, it would be superseded by the Earth Reclamation Force. I'll start on that later....

Edit 2: Just noticed I made a goof. What was called the MAC III in the old RPG is actually listed repeatedly in sources as the MAC II, so I switched it. This will make sense as neither the Thundercracker nor the Tiger (when I get around to it) are listed as Heavy Weapons Robots, but as Mobile Assault Cannons instead. The term Destroid is also abandoned for everything but The Macross Saga and REF Marines mecha in question.

I had one question. What makes you think they're shells, are you assuming that because there is a muzzle flash that it is a chemical reaction launched mass? Railguns also have muzzle flash from the armature turning to plasma... but then I realized that munitions launched out of a railgun would still be a shell. So, uh, nevermind