Map Project: The Timiro Kingdom (Version 1.2 Completed!)

[Hotrod]

EDIT: Version 1.2 is complete! Click here to see it.

EDIT: Version 1.1 is complete! Click here to see it.

EDIT: Version 1.0 is complete! Click here to see it.

EDIT: The natural geography is complete! Click here to see it.

Fellow Fantasy Fans,

Kiralon has commissioned me to give my full mapping treatment to The Timiro Kingdom, and has given his blessing to share my progress and products with the community. As always, my goal is to create an image that is both functional and nice to look at, with as much canon information as i can squeeze in.

Here is my intended scope of the project, exported from my global Palladium Fantasy Vector Map. I'm going for something similar in scope to the book maps. You may think that this has a lot of water in it (and you're right to think so). I'll use that space for the title, compass rose, legend, and maybe even a map of the island in the Floenries that Timiro owns (kind of like how US maps include Hawaii).

Timiro poses some unique challenges. First off, it's already one of the best-mapped regions in the world. The 1984 maps includes climate, approximate settlement populations, areas of farming, forts, roads/trails, and some natural geography. Simply rendering this in color would be a challenge in and of itself. However, Timiro also suffers from a common issue with canon Palladium Fantasy maps: it doesn't line up well with the world map or other regional maps. Although I've largely solved this issue where it comes to major geography like coastlines, rivers, and mountains with my global vector map, I'll have to make a lot of judgment calls about where to place some of the cities and features.

Additionally, there are some neighbors and other canon information to factor in. The Old Ones was Palladium's first regional sourcebook, and doesn't reflect or include much information on Timiro's neighbors. Timiro shares land borders with the Land of South Winds, the Old Kingdom, and the Eastern Territory, and I'll be including every canon settlement of these neighbors that lie within the scope of the map. Timiro also owns an island in the Floenries, and the Tombs of Gersidi are within its borders.

As always, I'd appreciate any help from any and all of you. Am I missing any important sources on Timiro? Is there any stuff you'd really like to see on this map that I haven't mentioned?

[Prysus]

Timiro shares land borders with the Land of South Winds, the Old Kingdom,
[snip]
As always, I'd appreciate any help from any and all of you. Am I missing any important sources on Timiro? Is there any stuff you'd really like to see on this map that I haven't mentioned?

Greetings and Salutations. First off, Timiro does NOT share a land border with the South-Winds. Timiro shares a land border with the Old Kingdom and the Old Kingdom shares a land border with the Land of the South Winds. While close, the two nations don't touch by land. On the world map in the main book this is the most obvious. In Old Ones, you can see a dotted line on the lower left section of the map (right under the mountains). I'm fairly sure that's the Timiro border, with whatever city is on the other side technically being part of the Old Kingdom (I could be wrong on the Old Ones map).

As for other things to include, I'm not much of a Timiro expert, so hard for me to come up with ideas. However, I do know they're supposed to be enemies with the South-Winds (how bitter is never stated to the best of my knowledge). This is noted in the Old Ones book. While South-Winds wouldn't ever mess with Timiro in their shared waters (also in Old Ones) it might be interesting to see the area of the sea they either claim or patrol heavily. In real life I believe there are water borders, and with Timiro being such a major sea power and (as you yourself admit) the map has a lot of water, this might fit right in.

Just a thought. Farewell and safe journeys.


P.S. References and pages can be cited if requested.

[Reagren Wright]

Did someone say Timiro Kingdom? Well my friend and I did a slight updated version of the map in
Rifter #63 when I wrote the new cannon Revision of Timiro. It looks a lot better then the original
treatment. We really wanted it to look better then how it turned out. Anyway, I'm glad the master
of maps is now on the job, if you can make Timiro look as good as Bizantium, then it will be
awesome! Any further info you or Kiralon need happy to provide.

[Reagren Wright]

As for Tombs of Gersidi, Madman Mike was suppose to be working on updating that adventure and
info about it but he got side tracked with his printable characters. However some of the info Kevin
included in Rifter #63.

[Prysus]

Did someone say Timiro Kingdom? Well my friend and I did a slight updated version of the map in
Rifter #63 when I wrote the new cannon Revision of Timiro. It looks a lot better then the original
treatment. We really wanted it to look better then how it turned out. Anyway, I'm glad the master
of maps is now on the job, if you can make Timiro look as good as Bizantium, then it will be
awesome! Any further info you or Kiralon need happy to provide.

Yes, totally talk to this guy for help with Timiro. He's awesome knowledgeable on the subject.

[Hotrod]

Timiro shares land borders with the Land of South Winds, the Old Kingdom,
[snip]
As always, I'd appreciate any help from any and all of you. Am I missing any important sources on Timiro? Is there any stuff you'd really like to see on this map that I haven't mentioned?

Greetings and Salutations. First off, Timiro does NOT share a land border with the South-Winds. Timiro shares a land border with the Old Kingdom and the Old Kingdom shares a land border with the Land of the South Winds. While close, the two nations don't touch by land. On the world map in the main book this is the most obvious. In Old Ones, you can see a dotted line on the lower left section of the map (right under the mountains). I'm fairly sure that's the Timiro border, with whatever city is on the other side technically being part of the Old Kingdom (I could be wrong on the Old Ones map).

As for other things to include, I'm not much of a Timiro expert, so hard for me to come up with ideas. However, I do know they're supposed to be enemies with the South-Winds (how bitter is never stated to the best of my knowledge). This is noted in the Old Ones book. While South-Winds wouldn't ever mess with Timiro in their shared waters (also in Old Ones) it might be interesting to see the area of the sea they either claim or patrol heavily. In real life I believe there are water borders, and with Timiro being such a major sea power and (as you yourself admit) the map has a lot of water, this might fit right in.

Just a thought. Farewell and safe journeys.


P.S. References and pages can be cited if requested.

Ah, my mistake. I assumed the forts/settlements on either side of the western border were for Timiro/South Winds. I'll have a long read through Old Ones in the next few weeks while I work on the land sculpt. There is a chunk of South Winds visible on my map, which I'll map appropriately.

[Hotrod]

Did someone say Timiro Kingdom? Well my friend and I did a slight updated version of the map in
Rifter #63 when I wrote the new cannon Revision of Timiro. It looks a lot better then the original
treatment. We really wanted it to look better then how it turned out. Anyway, I'm glad the master
of maps is now on the job, if you can make Timiro look as good as Bizantium, then it will be
awesome! Any further info you or Kiralon need happy to provide.

I'll be in touch! Thanks!

[Hotrod]

Mini-update: I've refined the coastline, making it a bit choppier, and I've added in a baseline layer of hilly terrain. No pics today; I'll have some once my initial land sculpt is done.

Timiro doesn't seem to have any canon rivers. That's weird.

[kiralon]

it does have the one that runs through the mountains

[The Beast]

Mini-update: I've refined the coastline, making it a bit choppier, and I've added in a baseline layer of hilly terrain. No pics today; I'll have some once my initial land sculpt is done.

Timiro doesn't seem to have any canon rivers. That's weird.

Wright added a few in his Rifter 63 map. My guess is that he went through each town's description in the Old Ones and added rivers as he found them. Also note that PB had an adventure back in the day called The Arms of Nargash Tor that added some more detail near Ft Ac, I think. It used to be available in the Cutting Room Floor, but that was back before they updated the site so I don't know if it's still there.

[Prysus]

Also note that PB had an adventure back in the day called The Arms of Nargash Tor that added some more detail near Ft Ac, I think. It used to be available in the Cutting Room Floor, but that was back before they updated the site so I don't know if it's still there.

Greetings and Salutations. It's on DriveThruRPG now. Farewell and safe journeys.

[Hotrod]

Is it still considered canon?

[Reagren Wright]

There are two cannon rivers in Timiro (you just have to read Old Ones to find them). They are Canva River (page 113) and the
Tanis River (page 103 and 66-67). And yes I incorporated as much info about Timiro from all sources including Arms of
Nargash Tor-1st edition). And yes everything is cannon that is in Rifter #63. One day I would love to pull it out of the Rifter
and put it in a fantasy book.

[Hotrod]

Minor setback today. I got most of the way through my first pass at land sculpting last night, but my head grew heavy and my sight grew dim, and I had to stop for the night. Windows reset my computer as I slept, and I neglected to save.

I'm trying out a new technique for mountains and terrain with this map. It's not as labor-intensive for me, but it uses a lot more computing time to sculpt the land with erosion effects. The result should be more realistic. I'll post a preliminary shot in the next day or two.

[kiralon]

That bad luck, to prevent again I recommend putting windows updates on download when you want them, then it wont restart at 3am on you

[Hotrod]

Ok, so I couldn't leave this alone. Here is my first effort at terrain sculpting. The result is pretty realistic, though doesn't quite look like what I want. The Old Kingdom River in particular needed some intervention and doesn't really match up well with the rest of the map, and I didn't even try to match up the canon Timiro rivers. Even so, I rather like the look.

[kiralon]

Looks pretty good, isle at edge of world makes it look like the OK river runs along the bottom of a high cliff face when it passes through the mountains to the southern side.

[Hotrod]

Yeah, I was thinking about that, and I did put in cliffs for my Valley at the Top of the World map. If you look on page 31 of Island at the Edge of the World, you'll see that those cliffs extend for about 150 miles or so, but they are northwest of where the Old Kingdom river passes between the mountains. There's also a great waterfall there, too, with lakes on the upriver and downriver sides. Furthermore, this technique made the rivers a good deal wider than I usually like to do.

If I want to keep these very-realistic mountains, I'll have to do some kind of a hybrid approach, where I use parts of this technique in some areas, while using my older technique in others. I'll keep at it. Next update should be somewhat more canon-compliant.

[zyanitevp]

Wow, looking great!

[Hotrod]

I was thinking about this earlier today, and it occurred to me that I hadn't collaged together all the relevant source maps yet. There are five canon maps that include features within the range of this project: p31 Island of the World, the Timiro map from Old Ones, the map from Glen's Rifter Article, the Eastern Territory map, and the world map. Although I'm confident in the coastal outline I created with my vector map, which I made with three of these, the remaining two source maps are particularly important and aren't in my global vector. They are Glen's map and the Island at the Edge of the World map. I scaled both of them and overlayed them with the vector map and coastline. I had to stretch Glen's map (and the Old Ones map it's based on) east and west to make it fit the world map and Eastern Territories map; I also had to stretch its western area a bit and rotate the whole map slightly.

Here's the collage.

I guess I should have done this first, because it revealed several problems. The first issue was how I scoped out the map. As I had it, Fort Hilde was just off the map to the north. This isn't a big problem, and in fact I've already fixed it by shifting the image north 20 pixels; this is why there's a darker band across the top of the collage. I'll have to re-do some of the terrain, but I was planning on doing that anyway. Additionally, I found that I wasmissing a couple of small islands from my coastline, which otherwise looks pretty good. These are both now fixed in this map. I'll also put these islands in my global vector map.

Due to the stretching required to make the Timiro map fit both the Eastern Territories maps and the original world map, the Copper Hills as labeled are really the White Rock Mountains; I'll put some foothills to the west of them and dub them the Copper Hills.

One thing I plan to throw out is the width of the Old Kingdom River. According to the Old Ones map, it's 10 miles wide at its narrowest point, which just doesn't seem right to me. I'll throw a few lakes into its course, but a river that's 10-50 miles wide is just silly, especially considering how much further that river has yet to go. Fort Hilde charges 5 gold per crossing on their flatbed, which is about a 50 mile round trip. That's a very trivial price for a very not-trivial crossing. The twice-as-fast-as-a-horse river trip to Fort Brant suggests a strong current, which means that I shouldn't interpret the river in this region as a very long lake (which is how it seems to be drawn).

Additionally, the course of the river in Old Ones doesn't match what it is in Eastern Territories or the original world map. You can see the deviation in the collage. I'll probably wind up creating a river that's a compromise between the two.

Doing this collage has yielded some additional fruit: a few of the locations in the Island at the Edge of the World map are within the view of this map, including inking, the Ogre village, and the Old Capitol, as well as the Great Falls and the Cliffs that Kiralon mentioned earlier. I now plan to include them all.

With this collage done and my experiment with my new mountain-painting technique complete, I'll get going on terrain sculpting in earnest.

[zyanitevp]

I was thinking about this earlier today, and it occurred to me that I hadn't collaged together all the relevant source maps yet. There are five canon maps that include features within the range of this project: p31 Island of the World, the Timiro map from Old Ones, the map from Glen's Rifter Article, the Eastern Territory map, and the world map. Although I'm confident in the coastal outline I created with my vector map, which I made with three of these, the remaining two source maps are particularly important and aren't in my global vector. They are Glen's map and the Island at the Edge of the World map. I scaled both of them and overlayed them with the vector map and coastline. I had to stretch Glen's map (and the Old Ones map it's based on) east and west to make it fit the world map and Eastern Territories map; I also had to stretch its western area a bit and rotate the whole map slightly.

Here's the collage.

I guess I should have done this first, because it revealed several problems. The first issue was how I scoped out the map. As I had it, Fort Hilde was just off the map to the north. This isn't a big problem, and in fact I've already fixed it by shifting the image north 20 pixels; this is why there's a darker band across the top of the collage. I'll have to re-do some of the terrain, but I was planning on doing that anyway. Additionally, I found that I wasmissing a couple of small islands from my coastline, which otherwise looks pretty good. These are both now fixed in this map. I'll also put these islands in my global vector map.

Due to the stretching required to make the Timiro map fit both the Eastern Territories maps and the original world map, the Copper Hills as labeled are really the White Rock Mountains; I'll put some foothills to the west of them and dub them the Copper Hills.

One thing I plan to throw out is the width of the Old Kingdom River. According to the Old Ones map, it's 10 miles wide at its narrowest point, which just doesn't seem right to me. I'll throw a few lakes into its course, but a river that's 10-50 miles wide is just silly, especially considering how much further that river has yet to go. Fort Hilde charges 5 gold per crossing on their flatbed, which is about a 50 mile round trip. That's a very trivial price for a very not-trivial crossing. The twice-as-fast-as-a-horse river trip to Fort Brant suggests a strong current, which means that I shouldn't interpret the river in this region as a very long lake (which is how it seems to be drawn).

Additionally, the course of the river in Old Ones doesn't match what it is in Eastern Territories or the original world map. You can see the deviation in the collage. I'll probably wind up creating a river that's a compromise between the two.

Doing this collage has yielded some additional fruit: a few of the locations in the Island at the Edge of the World map are within the view of this map, including inking, the Ogre village, and the Old Capitol, as well as the Great Falls and the Cliffs that Kiralon mentioned earlier. I now plan to include them all.

With this collage done and my experiment with my new mountain-painting technique complete, I'll get going on terrain sculpting in earnest.

Any reason you are using the earlier map to supersede the more recent canon map? Seems that the Timiro map, making the region larger, would take precedence.

[Hotrod]

Any reason you are using the earlier map to supersede the more recent canon map? Seems that the Timiro map, making the region larger, would take precedence.

Great question! It's a tricky business sorting out which parts of which maps get priority. Certainly I agree that the Timiro map from Glen's article will, in most cases, take precedence. The only noteworthy exception stems from the fact that neither canon Timiro map matches up well with the coastline from the Palladium Fantasy map or the Eastern Territory map. Since these two maps came both before (original world map) and after (Eastern Territory), and since the Glen Evans Timiro article map is a modification of the Old Ones map, I'm inclined to prioritize the wider east-west dimensions.

[ShadowHawk]

one problem I see right off the bat...Fort Isib on the right hand side, and take a look at the Eastern Territory map...on page 42. at Peningshir...

[Hotrod]

That's a legitimate concern, thanks for raising it! Once again, we come to the issue of different authors/cartographers working different books years apart. This discrepancy won't have any effect on my terrain sculpting, but it will come into play later, when I'm placing cities. I may bump Fort Isib a bit to the west, or else this "frontier post" will be built right outside a city of 61,000.

[Reagren Wright]

Yeah that was as an issue for me as well. The Copper Hills are clearly labeled throughout Old Ones, then all
of a sudden Eastern Territory came out and they're called the White Rock Mountains. So for continuity in
Rifter #63 I said they are the Copper Hills and they turn into the White Rock Mountains as a natural
geological transformation and boundary.

That map was HARD work to make. There are also a couple of mistakes...

Media should be closer to the shore. its clearly a port city in its own city map.

The Ley Line Nexus should be over the Place of Magic (its way off).

We really wanted to distinguish trail and roads. They look great in color but came out terrible in gray scale.

The city maps in Old Ones have streams or maybe rivers running through may cities but they don't have
names and there is no indication of where they came from. WHich is why the two cannon Rivers the
Tanis and Canva are a pain in the butt because they don't have a source. They just sort of appear in the
woods.

We wants to do some more things but ran out of time. We even wanted to redo the Mountains and put the
stuff in Island at the Edge of the World but to save time we just included the Great Falls.

I will say this map is far better than the one in Old Ones which really annoyed me to death trying to
determine their sizes of cities and there distance to each other.

Keep up the good work. And I hope you finally got the colored map version.

[Hotrod]

Thanks for the notes. I haven't received the colored version yet, but I've worked my way through most of the Timiro town and city section, and I've drawn in streams where appropriate based on their town maps. Working in the details for the rivers takes time, but it's not particularly hard; it's just a question of sculpting the terrain right and letting the streams show up where appropriate. Real rivers come from many sources

I think I'll extend the current White Rock Mountains a bit further west at a lower elevation and call that region the Copper Hills.

I'm not sure how I'll do roads and trails yet. I've only put those on one or two maps before. In any case, I need to finish the natural geography first.

[Hotrod]

I have the color version of the map in Glen's article! I've sized, rotated, and stretched it into a "best fit" position on my global vector map, and I'm working in the river details now. I've added three smallish lakes into the Old Kingdom River's flow: one above the great falls, one below, and one next to Ft Hilde. The canon Timiro map has an absurdly wide river, which I'm interpreting as its width during a historically-high flood. My map will show a more normal flow width.

Due to another failure to save on my part (GIMP really needs an autosave feature!), I lost the city map-based streams and rivers I'd added in before, but that shouldn't take too long to redo. Once I have the stream paths laid in, then I'll define the river basins and get busy with erosion effects.

[Prysus]

but a river that's 10-50 miles wide is just silly, especially considering how much further that river has yet to go.

Greetings and Salutations. "A" river, or silly very specifically the Old Kingdom River due to geographical stuff specific to the region and climate? The latter I don't know enough about, but if you mean in general then look up the Amazon River (during the wet season). Not only is it long, but very wide as well. Farewell and safe journeys.

[kiralon]

(GIMP really needs an autosave feature!)

http://gimpchat.com/download/file.php?i ... 8a8035544c
from here
http://gimpchat.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=11157

[Hotrod]

The Old Kingdom River starts around Mt. Nimro and then flows into the Old Kingdom. Neither place has the kind of climate that would justify a river of the Amazon's size and flow (the Amazon does get to 50 miles wide at its mouth).

Thanks for the link, Kiralon. I should have found that myself a long time ago.

[Hotrod]

The rivers are drawn in. There are 11 canon rivers in and around Timiro, though many are coastal streams that only show up in town maps. Now I need to define the river basins and get busy with erosion effects.

[tmbn]

Hotrod! Just want to say that you are doing great work!! And looking forward to see the end result on all of your maps so that we can actually download and use them. Thank you very much!!

[ShadowHawk]

Reagren Wright, they also mention the city of Raf-Chalin in the Eastern Territory and oops we forgot to add it. the excuse is it will give GM's something to play with. we had to listen to Shannon's little rant for about 2 minutes almost everytime we went to his version of Raf-challin. And he's right, Raf-chaln should have gotten control of the ruins along the old kingdom river.

[Hotrod]

Hotrod! Just want to say that you are doing great work!! And looking forward to see the end result on all of your maps so that we can actually download and use them. Thank you very much!!

Thanks for the enthusiasm! I hope you enjoy the final result of this, and my other projects.

I made some progress on the Timiro map last night/today and played with erosion effects for a while. I'm doing more erosion effects with this map than anything I've ever done before, using one set for mountains, another for lowlands, and then blending the two together. The mountain effects in particular take a lot of processing time (about 2-3 hours on a new, pretty fast laptop), but I'm liking the results.

You can judge for yourself. Here's the latest draft. I need to do a bit of blending between the mountains and the lowlands, as they seem to start a bit too abruptly, but this is a good 80% solution.

[Reagren Wright]

Reagren Wright, they also mention the city of Raf-Chalin in the Eastern Territory and oops we forgot to add it. the excuse is it will give GM's something to play with. we had to listen to Shannon's little rant for about 2 minutes almost everytime we went to his version of Raf-challin. And he's right, Raf-chaln should have gotten control of the ruins along the old kingdom river.

Where's this reference at? Anything I did for Timiro came out of the Old Ones book.

[Prysus]

Reagren Wright, they also mention the city of Raf-Chalin in the Eastern Territory and oops we forgot to add it. the excuse is it will give GM's something to play with. we had to listen to Shannon's little rant for about 2 minutes almost everytime we went to his version of Raf-challin. And he's right, Raf-chaln should have gotten control of the ruins along the old kingdom river.

Where's this reference at? Anything I did for Timiro came out of the Old Ones book.

Greetings and Salutations. Depends on the ruins in question. The Ruins in Eastern Territories should be east of Timiro (not the Place of Magic located in the mountains), for note. But if there's some other conflict I'm missing ...

Eastern Territory; map, page 42 (shows the location of the "Old City Ruins").*
Eastern Territory; write-up, page 187 (discusses Wisdom, Raf-Chalon, and the Old City Ruins).

* The map on page 42 does NOT show the entire Old Kingdom River. While it looks like it ends there, this doesn't make any sense compared to ... well, any other map I can find. It seems to be a truncated version (from what I can tell, the river on the map ends about where it would enter into the mountains). I'm using the shape of the continent for landmarks.

The Old City Ruins appear to be located mostly over Peningshir (Eastern Territory map, page 42), and judging by the mountains would put it just east of Gedro or Ft. Isib (Old Ones map, page 25). Baca or Ft. Brandt might be in the area of the Old City Ruins from Eastern Territories (hard for me to be sure due to the different maps). Though any attempt of Timiro to set claim to ruins located in the Eastern Territory (at least in part, the other part is in the Old Kingdom) could be problematic. If I'm missing something else, let me know. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Reagren Wright]

Reagren Wright, they also mention the city of Raf-Chalin in the Eastern Territory and oops we forgot to add it. the excuse is it will give GM's something to play with. we had to listen to Shannon's little rant for about 2 minutes almost everytime we went to his version of Raf-challin. And he's right, Raf-chaln should have gotten control of the ruins along the old kingdom river.

Where's this reference at? Anything I did for Timiro came out of the Old Ones book.

Greetings and Salutations. Depends on the ruins in question. The Ruins in Eastern Territories should be east of Timiro (not the Place of Magic located in the mountains), for note. But if there's some other conflict I'm missing ...

Eastern Territory; map, page 42 (shows the location of the "Old City Ruins").*
Eastern Territory; write-up, page 187 (discusses Wisdom, Raf-Chalon, and the Old City Ruins).

* The map on page 42 does NOT show the entire Old Kingdom River. While it looks like it ends there, this doesn't make any sense compared to ... well, any other map I can find. It seems to be a truncated version (from what I can tell, the river on the map ends about where it would enter into the mountains). I'm using the shape of the continent for landmarks.

The Old City Ruins appear to be located mostly over Peningshir (Eastern Territory map, page 42), and judging by the mountains would put it just east of Gedro or Ft. Isib (Old Ones map, page 25). Baca or Ft. Brandt might be in the area of the Old City Ruins from Eastern Territories (hard for me to be sure due to the different maps). Though any attempt of Timiro to set claim to ruins located in the Eastern Territory (at least in part, the other part is in the Old Kingdom) could be problematic. If I'm missing something else, let me know. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Ah yes now I know the reference. Yeah despite the bad map in ET I would to say the Ruin city would not have appeared on the revised map my friend and I
did based on Kevin's Original from Old Ones about Timiro. Its further away, the same could be said about the kingdom of Peningshir, which we speculated if
it could be on the map, and we ultimately decided no, just slightly further east.

As for the Elf Kingdom of Raf-Chalon, we have this single reference to it (so far) with no further details. I'm wondering if it was originally included in the ET
manuscript and got edited out (becoming a Red Barnacle armor reference) or if it got mentioned and the writer forgot to expand upon it. No reference to it
even in the Time Line. I guess the answer would be to ask Steve Edwards. I must say the only place I can think we could get updated info would be
someone to do a Rifter article (hint for any potential writers out there) or expand upon it in Old Kingdom Lowlands even though its technically in ET.

I also have a few Fantasy projects of my own maybe I could conceive of a way to make further reference to it (no guarantee though). Right now I would say
GM you have free reign to do with this reference as you wish.

[Reagren Wright]

Hotrod! Just want to say that you are doing great work!! And looking forward to see the end result on all of your maps so that we can actually download and use them. Thank you very much!!

Thanks for the enthusiasm! I hope you enjoy the final result of this, and my other projects.

I made some progress on the Timiro map last night/today and played with erosion effects for a while. I'm doing more erosion effects with this map than anything I've ever done before, using one set for mountains, another for lowlands, and then blending the two together. The mountain effects in particular take a lot of processing time (about 2-3 hours on a new, pretty fast laptop), but I'm liking the results.

You can judge for yourself. Here's the latest draft. I need to do a bit of blending between the mountains and the lowlands, as they seem to start a bit too abruptly, but this is a good 80% solution.

Looks great Matt. I applaud you river work.

[Hotrod]

Here's the latest draft. I did a little more blending to make the mountains roll more gently into the surrounding country in most places. I also did a bit more detail work on the smaller coastal rivers. Barring any major corrections, the land sculpt is complete.

I've got some work to do on a different project, but I'll be back to this map soon.

Features so far:
+Every canon river from Old Ones is included. There are a few extras, too, that the erosion program threw in. I can delete them, but I'm keeping them for now.
+The roads through the mountains correspond to the paths and roads through from the Old Ones.
+There's another twisty path through the northern mountain range with a little side-valley. This is the Valley of Gersidi.
+There's a distinct cliff-like drop-off where the Old Kingdom River flows through the mountains. This is supposed to be the Great Falls, and it has a small lake at the foot of the cliffs. The river valley makes these cliffs a bit less obvious, but really, the photo-realistic style that I go for isn't well-suited to showing waterfalls. I'll try adding in some effects later to emphasize this feature.
+Both the White Rock Mountains AND the Copper Hills are on the map. The Copper Hills are the small off-shoot that curls away south.
+I've added a temperate climate gradient. I may ad another climate for the grasslands of the Old Kingdom later.

[Hotrod]

Reagren Wright, they also mention the city of Raf-Chalin in the Eastern Territory and oops we forgot to add it. the excuse is it will give GM's something to play with. we had to listen to Shannon's little rant for about 2 minutes almost everytime we went to his version of Raf-challin. And he's right, Raf-chaln should have gotten control of the ruins along the old kingdom river.

Where's this reference at? Anything I did for Timiro came out of the Old Ones book.

Greetings and Salutations. Depends on the ruins in question. The Ruins in Eastern Territories should be east of Timiro (not the Place of Magic located in the mountains), for note. But if there's some other conflict I'm missing ...

Eastern Territory; map, page 42 (shows the location of the "Old City Ruins").*
Eastern Territory; write-up, page 187 (discusses Wisdom, Raf-Chalon, and the Old City Ruins).

* The map on page 42 does NOT show the entire Old Kingdom River. While it looks like it ends there, this doesn't make any sense compared to ... well, any other map I can find. It seems to be a truncated version (from what I can tell, the river on the map ends about where it would enter into the mountains). I'm using the shape of the continent for landmarks.

The Old City Ruins appear to be located mostly over Peningshir (Eastern Territory map, page 42), and judging by the mountains would put it just east of Gedro or Ft. Isib (Old Ones map, page 25). Baca or Ft. Brandt might be in the area of the Old City Ruins from Eastern Territories (hard for me to be sure due to the different maps). Though any attempt of Timiro to set claim to ruins located in the Eastern Territory (at least in part, the other part is in the Old Kingdom) could be problematic. If I'm missing something else, let me know. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Interesting, thanks for sharing the references. The Old City Ruins and Peningshir are right on the edge of this map. Even if they lie just within its scope, I probably won't include them. Maybe I'll do an Eastern Territory map someday.

[tmbn]

Hotrod! Just want to say that you are doing great work!! And looking forward to see the end result on all of your maps so that we can actually download and use them. Thank you very much!!

Thanks for the enthusiasm! I hope you enjoy the final result of this, and my other projects.

I made some progress on the Timiro map last night/today and played with erosion effects for a while. I'm doing more erosion effects with this map than anything I've ever done before, using one set for mountains, another for lowlands, and then blending the two together. The mountain effects in particular take a lot of processing time (about 2-3 hours on a new, pretty fast laptop), but I'm liking the results.

You can judge for yourself. Here's the latest draft. I need to do a bit of blending between the mountains and the lowlands, as they seem to start a bit too abruptly, but this is a good 80% solution.

Wow! It looks very good! Do you have any plans for adding main cities and roads at the end ? Or too much work maybe.

[Hotrod]

Wow! It looks very good! Do you have any plans for adding main cities and roads at the end ? Or too much work maybe.

Thank you! The land sculpt is the sine qua non of my mapping process, but it is not all there is. I'll be adding in quite a bit more, including cities, towns, forts, borders, ley lines, forests, and labels. Each step will build on what I have now.

I want to include roads and trails, but I don't have a method that I really like for those yet. I'll figure something out when I get to that point.

The process does take a significant amount of work, and I'm working on another project in parallel with this one, so I won't move onto the next step with the Timiro map until I finish the land sculpt for my other project.

[Hotrod]

After getting a bunch of work done on another project, I'm back on Timiro, making and placing icons. Some of my icons are straight out of ones I've used in past maps for ruins, cities, towns, the Place of Magic, and capital cities. I'm making a new icon for walled cities and castles/forts.

I'm not quite sure what sort of symbol/icon I should make for the ogre tribe territories. A raised fist might be appropriate, since they're oppressed rebels fighting the established power, but that doesn't quite convey their tribalism or ogre-ish-ness. Any ideas?

[ShadowHawk]

After getting a bunch of work done on another project, I'm back on Timiro, making and placing icons. Some of my icons are straight out of ones I've used in past maps for ruins, cities, towns, the Place of Magic, and capital cities. I'm making a new icon for walled cities and castles/forts.

I'm not quite sure what sort of symbol/icon I should make for the ogre tribe territories. A raised fist might be appropriate, since they're oppressed rebels fighting the established power, but that doesn't quite convey their tribalism or ogre-ish-ness. Any ideas?

war banners, campfires, sword in the ground, arrow, etc.

[tmbn]

After getting a bunch of work done on another project, I'm back on Timiro, making and placing icons. Some of my icons are straight out of ones I've used in past maps for ruins, cities, towns, the Place of Magic, and capital cities. I'm making a new icon for walled cities and castles/forts.

I'm not quite sure what sort of symbol/icon I should make for the ogre tribe territories. A raised fist might be appropriate, since they're oppressed rebels fighting the established power, but that doesn't quite convey their tribalism or ogre-ish-ness. Any ideas?

Agree with the ones above.

How about Arrow up or arrow down. Spear and shield is also a common tribal symbol.

Looking forward to see your end result!

[kiralon]

After getting a bunch of work done on another project, I'm back on Timiro, making and placing icons. Some of my icons are straight out of ones I've used in past maps for ruins, cities, towns, the Place of Magic, and capital cities. I'm making a new icon for walled cities and castles/forts.

I'm not quite sure what sort of symbol/icon I should make for the ogre tribe territories. A raised fist might be appropriate, since they're oppressed rebels fighting the established power, but that doesn't quite convey their tribalism or ogre-ish-ness. Any ideas?

an open hungry mouth

[Hotrod]

Progress. Here's the latest version. I've placed icons for all the Timiro cities, towns/villages, and forts. I may do some additional work on these to give more of a sense of population scale. I went by the categories in the Old Ones' table of content, which puts cities in one category and towns/villages in another. Some so-called towns in Timiro have populations greater than one of the listed cities, while others are barely bigger than hamlets. I may just make a spreadsheet of names and populations and sort it in descending order, replacing town icons with village or small city icons as appropriate.

I've also made and placed icons for walled cities and forts. There's one fort included that isn't in Old Ones. It's the castle in the Gersidi adventure. I also placed two ruins icons, one in the Gersidi valley, and the other at the Place of Magic.

Thanks for the suggestions! I'll try out several of these ideas for the ogre tribes as black and white icons, as well as a couple ideas that have occurred to me. There's still a lot to do on this map.

[kiralon]

lookin awesome

[zyanitevp]

looking good!

[Hotrod]

The full list of Timiro's settlements, sorted population size:

Spoiler:

Credia 170000
Old Timiro 92000
Tomoro 68000
Aracho 63000
Tanis 54000
Acoroc 31000
Rankin 22500
Media 18000
Nibis 18000
Smia 17400
Syanda 13000
Aria 11370
Calra 9300
Basst 9000
Partha 4690
Kwia 3600
barbera 3580
Nisi 3250
Nira 3200
Sims 2200
Erat 2100
Hanna 2000
Yria 1680
Beeg 1200
Gedro 1100
Marmana 1078
Parp 700
Sino 640
baca 600
Tax 560
Tanith 450
Bith 443
Arian 284

With 33 settlements, I think I'll break them up into 3 population categories: 0-1,999, 2,000-11,999, and 12,000+. That'll make 11 settlements in each category.