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Has anything been introduced into Rifts that allows for technology to generate PPE? Turning Electricity into PPE, etc? I'm thinking of something like the Draw Power spell in GURPS.

Also, what other forms of Technomancy besides Techno-Wizardry are out there?

There is no known way to convert electricity to PPE, the reverse has been done. The closest are things in Psyscape:
-an experimental device reads like the electricity is supporting ISP expenditure.
-A Power Leech (also in DBoNA) when they absorb enough energy 100MD/100PPE (the MD can be the equivalent in electricity) they gain ISP, which by the book can be converted to PPE at a 2:1 ratio (2 ISP = 1 PPE) pretty regularly. However this is a natural ability of the Power Leech, who can't take the necessary Psi-Power to transfer the ISP.

Technowizard variants out there:
-Eco-wizardry (Dinosaur Swamp, primitive materials)
-Gizmoteer (SA2, a Psionic version)

Godslayer wrote:Has anything been introduced into Rifts that allows for technology to generate PPE? Turning Electricity into PPE, etc? I'm thinking of something like the Draw Power spell in GURPS.

Nothing. PPE can be become electricity (or anything else), but it dosn't go both ways. there is no possible way to take electricity and get PPE out of it.

Also, what other forms of Technomancy besides Techno-Wizardry are out there?

They're pretty much it.

Didn't someone ask this a month or two ago?

FWIW, I would let something like this be developed via Techno-Wizardry (definitely bio-wizardry, but at that point it's just "This thing eats electricity and poops PPE), but I wouldn't give it a high flow rate. It wouldn't be on par with a ley line, certainly, but more like a cell phone charger... in 2-3 hours of charging, you've got a useful amount of energy for a single battery. So, maybe a device that will let you produce 10 PPE/Hour by plugging it into a power source?

Mark Hall wrote:Didn't someone ask this a month or two ago?

I think it was longer than that. And I'll state my answer here as well:

The Beast wrote:

oger333 wrote:could one build a device to convert energy in to p.p.e ? and or the other way around .

While the PPE to energy bit exists, if you have access to the Unexpurgated Cyberpunk Referee's Guide, then take a look at page 29. You're wanting to create a level 3 invention, which would be the equivalent of being the first to build an atom bomb. The item you wish to build is a history/planet-changing development. If the players are driving this idea, let them know it's something that should take decades of R&D to create, and they'd have to dedicate large portions of their day to it, to the point of having to give up adventuring, or whatever it is they do. They'd also need a large amount of capital to invest with (again, like the atom bomb). You should also role play it out in real-time to drive in the point.

If you're the GM, and you're wanting to make such a device, consider the implications of such a device for a magic-orientated society. Atlantis, the FoM, the Phoenix Empire, and the Yama Kings would all love to get their hands on such a device, and hey wouldn't be the only ones. You're essentially turning a nuclear power source into a massive talisman, with god-only-knows amounts of available PPE. Plus not to mention the fact that conceivably the PCs couold end up getting their hands on it. Ask every GM how well it turns out for their game when the PCs get their mitts on an uber-tech device.

Now, I'm not saying you can or can't make it, just think about the ramifications to your game and your game world first.

Mark Hall wrote:Didn't someone ask this a month or two ago?

FWIW, I would let something like this be developed via Techno-Wizardry (definitely bio-wizardry, but at that point it's just "This thing eats electricity and poops PPE), but I wouldn't give it a high flow rate. It wouldn't be on par with a ley line, certainly, but more like a cell phone charger... in 2-3 hours of charging, you've got a useful amount of energy for a single battery. So, maybe a device that will let you produce 10 PPE/Hour by plugging it into a power source?

It was asked (and bitterly argued) in a different forum.

Edit:

Link to that thread would be viewtopic.php?f=39&t=147342.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Godslayer wrote:Has anything been introduced into Rifts that allows for technology to generate PPE? Turning Electricity into PPE, etc? I'm thinking of something like the Draw Power spell in GURPS.

Nothing. PPE can be become electricity (or anything else), but it dosn't go both ways. there is no possible way to take electricity and get PPE out of it.

There is absolutely nothing that says that to be the case.

Here's why I don't have a particular problem with it being created on a relatively modest scale: Pyramids.

Let's say I have a friend stone mage. He makes me a pyramid, and I'm not going to be greedy... it's on a ley line, not a nexus. 200-800 PPE per 6 hour period. Now, pyramids have a whole host of other abilities, and are also huge, hard to destroy, and unportable. Something modest (the 10 PPE per hour I suggested above as a ballpark) is a great bonus, that is relatively portable, is going to be pretty awesome... but it's not going to change the world.

The thing that will change the world is the version of that electricity to PPE converter that converts that PPE to ISP, greatly speeding ISP regeneration.

Mark Hall wrote:Here's why I don't have a particular problem with it being created on a relatively modest scale: Pyramids.

Let's say I have a friend stone mage. He makes me a pyramid, and I'm not going to be greedy... it's on a ley line, not a nexus. 200-800 PPE per 6 hour period. Now, pyramids have a whole host of other abilities, and are also huge, hard to destroy, and unportable. Something modest (the 10 PPE per hour I suggested above as a ballpark) is a great bonus, that is relatively portable, is going to be pretty awesome... but it's not going to change the world.

The thing that will change the world is the version of that electricity to PPE converter that converts that PPE to ISP, greatly speeding ISP regeneration.

There are also so many sources of PPE around on a place like Rifts Earth (including teammates who don't need what they have contributing it willingly) that it's bizarre to act like it's so terribly unbalancing for someone to have some kind of electricity to PPE converter. Like you note it's those who run on ISP that are so restricted that electricity to ISP would be far more ground-breaking by giving psychics the ability to recover ISP as readily as a mage can recover PPE.

Nightmask wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:Here's why I don't have a particular problem with it being created on a relatively modest scale: Pyramids.

Let's say I have a friend stone mage. He makes me a pyramid, and I'm not going to be greedy... it's on a ley line, not a nexus. 200-800 PPE per 6 hour period. Now, pyramids have a whole host of other abilities, and are also huge, hard to destroy, and unportable. Something modest (the 10 PPE per hour I suggested above as a ballpark) is a great bonus, that is relatively portable, is going to be pretty awesome... but it's not going to change the world.

The thing that will change the world is the version of that electricity to PPE converter that converts that PPE to ISP, greatly speeding ISP regeneration.

There are also so many sources of PPE around on a place like Rifts Earth (including teammates who don't need what they have contributing it willingly) that it's bizarre to act like it's so terribly unbalancing for someone to have some kind of electricity to PPE converter. Like you note it's those who run on ISP that are so restricted that electricity to ISP would be far more ground-breaking by giving psychics the ability to recover ISP as readily as a mage can recover PPE.

I think it more about the concept than the balance, flavor wise ppe is tied to living things. Example of non unbalanced concept that is broken, allowing a crazies farts to glow in the dark the light does not so bright as to allow some one to see in the dark.(not unbalancing but a broken concept a concept can be broken even if it does not unbalance things.)
Allowing science to make PPE means you are one step closer to allowing science to do all of what magic can do. (that is the problem I see with it. Well science can make PPE so it can shape it into.....)

Godslayer wrote:Has anything been introduced into Rifts that allows for technology to generate PPE? Turning Electricity into PPE, etc? I'm thinking of something like the Draw Power spell in GURPS.

Also, what other forms of Technomancy besides Techno-Wizardry are out there?

-There are several different 'flavors' of Techno-Wizardry. The North American techno-wizard is not the only kind.
-There is a Stone Magic/Techno Wizard Hybrid in Manoa.
-There is a branch of TW that uses living things in it.
-Phase World has Techno-Smithies, who have multiple options....one of which is functionally identical to TWs....though their devices look different.
-The Mokole of Australia have some sort of variant TW
-The Xictic have some sort of ability that seems to be similar
-There is the Cybermage in the Nightbane game.
-The Amaki have a kind of "psionic techno-wizard".
-The Lemurians have a sort of Stone/Biomancy hybrid that allows for them to make devices of a different sort (which while they would argue they are not 'technology' their stone magic equipment is complex devices used to do tasks.....
-There are a number of spells that are designed specifically to interact with technology (the best example is space magic much of which is used in symbiosis with technology)

One thing to consider is that it seems that any form of magic that involves the melding of magic and technology is called 'techo-wizardry'.... Just like all magic may fairly be called wizardry not all practitioners of magic are wizards, or even use normal invocations.

Blue_Lion wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:Here's why I don't have a particular problem with it being created on a relatively modest scale: Pyramids.

Let's say I have a friend stone mage. He makes me a pyramid, and I'm not going to be greedy... it's on a ley line, not a nexus. 200-800 PPE per 6 hour period. Now, pyramids have a whole host of other abilities, and are also huge, hard to destroy, and unportable. Something modest (the 10 PPE per hour I suggested above as a ballpark) is a great bonus, that is relatively portable, is going to be pretty awesome... but it's not going to change the world.

The thing that will change the world is the version of that electricity to PPE converter that converts that PPE to ISP, greatly speeding ISP regeneration.

There are also so many sources of PPE around on a place like Rifts Earth (including teammates who don't need what they have contributing it willingly) that it's bizarre to act like it's so terribly unbalancing for someone to have some kind of electricity to PPE converter. Like you note it's those who run on ISP that are so restricted that electricity to ISP would be far more ground-breaking by giving psychics the ability to recover ISP as readily as a mage can recover PPE.

I think it more about the concept than the balance, flavor wise ppe is tied to living things. Example of non unbalanced concept that is broken, allowing a crazies farts to glow in the dark the light does not so bright as to allow some one to see in the dark.(not unbalancing but a broken concept a concept can be broken even if it does not unbalance things.)
Allowing science to make PPE means you are one step closer to allowing science to do all of what magic can do. (that is the problem I see with it. Well science can make PPE so it can shape it into.....)

Techno-Wizards are already into that area, melding technology and magic together and showing how they're connected (similar to how Gizmoteers show the connection between technology and psionics), so the idea that they're separate and unrelated is clearly non-existent as we already have places where it's combined together.

Godslayer wrote:Has anything been introduced into Rifts that allows for technology to generate PPE? Turning Electricity into PPE, etc? I'm thinking of something like the Draw Power spell in GURPS.

Also, what other forms of Technomancy besides Techno-Wizardry are out there?

This is intriguing.

Ppe to electricity ecists.

But the flipside of electricity is magnetism.

So maybe magnetic fields generated by electricity are needed.

Two things I've done.

One is I took the Psi Mechanic from BTS and remade it for Rifts to have a Psionics version of the TW.

Two, and I hope once I finish writing it up completely, I have a stone, a mineral, that acts like a PPE battery that a class called Bloodstone Mage draws power from.

As far as electricity to PPE goes... It's interesting, seems like something Lazlo Mages might tinker with.

Nightmask wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:Here's why I don't have a particular problem with it being created on a relatively modest scale: Pyramids.

Let's say I have a friend stone mage. He makes me a pyramid, and I'm not going to be greedy... it's on a ley line, not a nexus. 200-800 PPE per 6 hour period. Now, pyramids have a whole host of other abilities, and are also huge, hard to destroy, and unportable. Something modest (the 10 PPE per hour I suggested above as a ballpark) is a great bonus, that is relatively portable, is going to be pretty awesome... but it's not going to change the world.

The thing that will change the world is the version of that electricity to PPE converter that converts that PPE to ISP, greatly speeding ISP regeneration.

There are also so many sources of PPE around on a place like Rifts Earth (including teammates who don't need what they have contributing it willingly) that it's bizarre to act like it's so terribly unbalancing for someone to have some kind of electricity to PPE converter. Like you note it's those who run on ISP that are so restricted that electricity to ISP would be far more ground-breaking by giving psychics the ability to recover ISP as readily as a mage can recover PPE.

I think it more about the concept than the balance, flavor wise ppe is tied to living things. Example of non unbalanced concept that is broken, allowing a crazies farts to glow in the dark the light does not so bright as to allow some one to see in the dark.(not unbalancing but a broken concept a concept can be broken even if it does not unbalance things.)
Allowing science to make PPE means you are one step closer to allowing science to do all of what magic can do. (that is the problem I see with it. Well science can make PPE so it can shape it into.....)

Techno-Wizards are already into that area, melding technology and magic together and showing how they're connected (similar to how Gizmoteers show the connection between technology and psionics), so the idea that they're separate and unrelated is clearly non-existent as we already have places where it's combined together.

Except that TW devices are not actual machines.....
"Another advantage is that people who are not psychic or mystically oriented can not operate the device at all. ....In fact, to a normal person the devices seem like worthless junk with out any apparent power source or functioning internal workings.

These things are not machines that cast spells. These are not machines that have been fused with magic. These are a variant way of making magic items. It is no more a rigorous science than claiming that circle magic is just the same as geometry.

Good point

There is no official way to convert electricity to PPE.
Some people think that the TW generator that converts PPE to electricity indicates that the process should be able to be reversed, but that is not necessarily true.

A GM could allow such a device to exist, but it's the kind of thing that could easily radically alter the economics of power in the game, because electricity is effectively infinite for anybody with a nuclear power supply, and those aren't all that difficult to come by.
If I ever allowed it, it would have a very low conversion rate. Something like 1 PPE could be created per hour per nuclear power supply... and even that could easily get out of hand.

eliakon wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:Here's why I don't have a particular problem with it being created on a relatively modest scale: Pyramids.

Let's say I have a friend stone mage. He makes me a pyramid, and I'm not going to be greedy... it's on a ley line, not a nexus. 200-800 PPE per 6 hour period. Now, pyramids have a whole host of other abilities, and are also huge, hard to destroy, and unportable. Something modest (the 10 PPE per hour I suggested above as a ballpark) is a great bonus, that is relatively portable, is going to be pretty awesome... but it's not going to change the world.

The thing that will change the world is the version of that electricity to PPE converter that converts that PPE to ISP, greatly speeding ISP regeneration.

There are also so many sources of PPE around on a place like Rifts Earth (including teammates who don't need what they have contributing it willingly) that it's bizarre to act like it's so terribly unbalancing for someone to have some kind of electricity to PPE converter. Like you note it's those who run on ISP that are so restricted that electricity to ISP would be far more ground-breaking by giving psychics the ability to recover ISP as readily as a mage can recover PPE.

I think it more about the concept than the balance, flavor wise ppe is tied to living things. Example of non unbalanced concept that is broken, allowing a crazies farts to glow in the dark the light does not so bright as to allow some one to see in the dark.(not unbalancing but a broken concept a concept can be broken even if it does not unbalance things.)
Allowing science to make PPE means you are one step closer to allowing science to do all of what magic can do. (that is the problem I see with it. Well science can make PPE so it can shape it into.....)

Techno-Wizards are already into that area, melding technology and magic together and showing how they're connected (similar to how Gizmoteers show the connection between technology and psionics), so the idea that they're separate and unrelated is clearly non-existent as we already have places where it's combined together.

Except that TW devices are not actual machines.....
"Another advantage is that people who are not psychic or mystically oriented can not operate the device at all. ....In fact, to a normal person the devices seem like worthless junk with out any apparent power source or functioning internal workings.

These things are not machines that cast spells. These are not machines that have been fused with magic. These are a variant way of making magic items. It is no more a rigorous science than claiming that circle magic is just the same as geometry.

Except non-mages and non-psychics CAN operate TW devices, depending on whether or not the TW in question builds it so it can. In the original Rifts book the default was that a TW didn't make it where those who didn't have PPE or ISP could use them but it's been made clear since then that they can do it if they decide to. TW devices are also clearly machines fused with magic, they require some kind of technological item or tech focus in general to create they aren't simply magic items and where do you get the idea it isn't a rigorous science? They do research to create new spells which requires some kind of rules and methods of study to make that happen, same with creating new items there must be some kind of rules in order to make that possible.

Killer Cyborg wrote:There is no official way to convert electricity to PPE.

Actually there is, but it is not via technology. First, there is an official way to convert electricity to ISP (check), and there is an official way to convert ISP to PPE (check). Both of these can be found in one place to produce the desired effect, but it is not a piece of technology.

The Power Leech (WB12/30) can absorb electricity, if they absorb enough (100MD worth) they get bonus ISP (along with some other bonuses) when it increases in size due to "eating to much".

There is the Healing Psychic Power which allows the psychic to covert ISP to PPE via the "Restore PPE" power. This power is found in WB12, likely GMG (can't confirm), and is in RUE. Which the PL can selected, I mis-spoke earlier in terms of categorizing.

So yes there is an official way to convert electricity to PPE in a roundabout fashion. This might not meet all the requirements of the OP, but there is a way to produce the desired effect.

Nightmask wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Godslayer wrote:Has anything been introduced into Rifts that allows for technology to generate PPE? Turning Electricity into PPE, etc? I'm thinking of something like the Draw Power spell in GURPS.

Nothing. PPE can be become electricity (or anything else), but it dosn't go both ways. there is no possible way to take electricity and get PPE out of it.

There is absolutely nothing that says that to be the case.

There is absolutely nothing say you cannot convert cupcakes to PPE either.

I still feel comfortable in saying you can't.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Godslayer wrote:Has anything been introduced into Rifts that allows for technology to generate PPE? Turning Electricity into PPE, etc? I'm thinking of something like the Draw Power spell in GURPS.

Nothing. PPE can be become electricity (or anything else), but it dosn't go both ways. there is no possible way to take electricity and get PPE out of it.

There is absolutely nothing that says that to be the case.

There is absolutely nothing say you cannot convert cupcakes to PPE either.

I still feel comfortable in saying you can't.

You know that's a fallacious argument there (and considering living things generate PPE then you can consider someone eating a cupcake is effectively converting a cupcake to PPE). PPE is still just energy, electricity is energy, PPE can be converted into electricity, nothing states you can't therefor convert electricity into PPE. Nothing.

Nightmask wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Godslayer wrote:Has anything been introduced into Rifts that allows for technology to generate PPE? Turning Electricity into PPE, etc? I'm thinking of something like the Draw Power spell in GURPS.

Nothing. PPE can be become electricity (or anything else), but it dosn't go both ways. there is no possible way to take electricity and get PPE out of it.

There is absolutely nothing that says that to be the case.

There is absolutely nothing say you cannot convert cupcakes to PPE either.

I still feel comfortable in saying you can't.

You know that's a fallacious argument there (and considering living things generate PPE then you can consider someone eating a cupcake is effectively converting a cupcake to PPE). PPE is still just energy, electricity is energy, PPE can be converted into electricity, nothing states you can't therefor convert electricity into PPE. Nothing.

Still not buying it. it dosn't say you can't, but there is no reason to presume you can.

An Amaki Gizmoteer could build this device.
Electricity to Ppe converter.

Nightmask wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Godslayer wrote:Has anything been introduced into Rifts that allows for technology to generate PPE? Turning Electricity into PPE, etc? I'm thinking of something like the Draw Power spell in GURPS.

Nothing. PPE can be become electricity (or anything else), but it dosn't go both ways. there is no possible way to take electricity and get PPE out of it.

There is absolutely nothing that says that to be the case.

There is absolutely nothing say you cannot convert cupcakes to PPE either.

I still feel comfortable in saying you can't.

You know that's a fallacious argument there (and considering living things generate PPE then you can consider someone eating a cupcake is effectively converting a cupcake to PPE). PPE is still just energy, electricity is energy, PPE can be converted into electricity, nothing states you can't therefor convert electricity into PPE. Nothing.

Just like nothing says we can't convert cold, impact, fire, sunlight, or sound or any of the other energy types that magic can be used to create into PPE. In fact there is no presumption anywhere in the rules that there is anyway to generate PPE that doesn't involve either living things or magic.
And I am not so sure on the magic part honestly.....

(And of course this goes back to the argument of if spells really convert PPE into electricity or not in the first place. Which is an implied, but unsupported, premise of the argument)

<edit>
All we know for certain is that with an input of PPE when using magic it is possible to get an output of electricity.
<edit>
Period.

From there we need to fill in a number of blanks, specifically: How magic works, how PPE is generated, the relationship between magic and PPE, the nature of Techno-Wizardry, the nature of magic in the palladium universe.
As there is insufficient canon information on these topics to make an informed statement of categorical fact on any of these we are left with the answer being "It is possible to turn electricity into PPE if the GM chooses to have it be possible in their game world. Otherwise if the GM chooses to not have it be possible then it is not." Possibly with the caveat "Individual GMs will have to choose for themselves which option works best for their world and it is advised that the potential ramifications of the decision be considered carefully before a decision is made either way."

Power Leech + Restore PPE + natural energy attack (or TW weapon) = unlimited PPE.

But there are safer and easier ways to get PPE.

Zapper absorb electricity.

Interestingly......every one of these systems requires the use of a living being as part of the chain....
Almost as if living things were a requirement to make PPE......

I could think of an isp powered version but not an electrical powered version.
Still thinking.

Perhaps using plankton, and the electric current sacrifices them....

say652 wrote:I could think of an isp powered version but not an electrical powered version.
Still thinking.

Perhaps using plankton, and the electric current sacrifices them....

Plankton would not be a good source of PPE unless you're planning on sacrificing something on the order of x10 tons(that's of solid, compacted, zooplankton, not the water they're swimming in). Impractical as hell unless you're wiping out an entire ecosystem ALL AT ONCE.

I'm thinking, this isn't an exact science.

Imprisoned entity is done to death though.

Hmmmmm, in Rifts under seas, a magical mutation, pieces chopped off regrow into exact copies......

eliakon wrote:Interestingly......every one of these systems requires the use of a living being as part of the chain....
Almost as if living things were a requirement to make PPE......

That would qualify as an unproven opinion, one that's also contradicted by the existence of Ley Lines which produce large amounts of PPE and can exist and do so even on dead moons or stretching through the depths of space without any life around for light years.

eliakon wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Nightmask wrote:There is absolutely nothing that says that to be the case.

There is absolutely nothing say you cannot convert cupcakes to PPE either.

I still feel comfortable in saying you can't.

You know that's a fallacious argument there (and considering living things generate PPE then you can consider someone eating a cupcake is effectively converting a cupcake to PPE). PPE is still just energy, electricity is energy, PPE can be converted into electricity, nothing states you can't therefor convert electricity into PPE. Nothing.

Just like nothing says we can't convert cold, impact, fire, sunlight, or sound or any of the other energy types that magic can be used to create into PPE. In fact there is no presumption anywhere in the rules that there is anyway to generate PPE that doesn't involve either living things or magic.
And I am not so sure on the magic part honestly.....

(And of course this goes back to the argument of if spells really convert PPE into electricity or not in the first place. Which is an implied, but unsupported, premise of the argument)

<edit>
All we know for certain is that with an input of PPE when using magic it is possible to get an output of electricity.
<edit>
Period.

From there we need to fill in a number of blanks, specifically: How magic works, how PPE is generated, the relationship between magic and PPE, the nature of Techno-Wizardry, the nature of magic in the palladium universe.
As there is insufficient canon information on these topics to make an informed statement of categorical fact on any of these we are left with the answer being "It is possible to turn electricity into PPE if the GM chooses to have it be possible in their game world. Otherwise if the GM chooses to not have it be possible then it is not." Possibly with the caveat "Individual GMs will have to choose for themselves which option works best for their world and it is advised that the potential ramifications of the decision be considered carefully before a decision is made either way."

Yes and was pointed out at the time it's a ridiculously unsupportable argument to try and claim that somehow PPE isn't being converted into any of those energies and what amounts to invislbe PPE fairies come in, take the PPE, and do everything without the PPE being used up for anything.

The default is still non-mages/psi can't use TW just because some one can change the settings off default does not mean that it is not the default setting.(Unless something says other wise it requires something saying they can for them to use most tw devices as there are still books that say that is the default.)

But my opinion was not about TWs but pure science doing what magic does. If pure science can make PPE a life force then pure science can shape it, resulting in magical affects being made with just science. The first step that can lead down that road is a device to convert electricity to PPE as it removes living things from being involved in the process of PPE creation.

Blue_Lion wrote:The default is still non-mages/psi can't use TW just because some one can change the settings off default does not mean that it is not the default setting.(Unless something says other wise it requires something saying they can for them to use most tw devices as there are still books that say that is the default.)

But my opinion was not about TWs but pure science doing what magic does. If pure science can make PPE a life force then pure science can shape it, resulting in magical affects being made with just science. The first step that can lead down that road is a device to convert electricity to PPE as it removes living things from being involved in the process of PPE creation.

As I pointed out Ley Lines are evidence that living things aren't required to produce PPE, it may be a common byproduct of life but life isn't actually essential to create it. Also considering pure science has developed methods of detecting and measuring PPE (however crudely) pure science is already on that path, since the first step in manipulating something is being able to detect it. First you detect it then you develop ways of generating it then develop techniques to manipulate it.

ShadowLogan wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:There is no official way to convert electricity to PPE.

Actually there is, but it is not via technology. First, there is an official way to convert electricity to ISP (check), and there is an official way to convert ISP to PPE (check). Both of these can be found in one place to produce the desired effect, but it is not a piece of technology.

The Power Leech (WB12/30) can absorb electricity, if they absorb enough (100MD worth) they get bonus ISP (along with some other bonuses) when it increases in size due to "eating to much".

There is the Healing Psychic Power which allows the psychic to covert ISP to PPE via the "Restore PPE" power. This power is found in WB12, likely GMG (can't confirm), and is in RUE. Which the PL can selected, I mis-spoke earlier in terms of categorizing.

So yes there is an official way to convert electricity to PPE in a roundabout fashion. This might not meet all the requirements of the OP, but there is a way to produce the desired effect.

Good thoughts.

It IS a roundabout fashion, though, and yeah... as you say, not technological.

say652 wrote:An Amaki Gizmoteer could build this device.
Electricity to Ppe converter.

No they can not. They do not have access to any Psychic Power that grants them the ability to convert electricity into ISP or PPE. Any Psi power they put into a device must be one they know per the rules, and the only psychic power/ability that can convert electricity into ISP is available only to the Power Leech (who can not select/change class).

ShadowLogan wrote:

say652 wrote:An Amaki Gizmoteer could build this device.
Electricity to Ppe converter.

No they can not. They do not have access to any Psychic Power that grants them the ability to convert electricity into ISP or PPE. Any Psi power they put into a device must be one they know per the rules, and the only psychic power/ability that can convert electricity into ISP is available only to the Power Leech (who can not select/change class).

Late to the party.

Nightmask wrote:

eliakon wrote:Interestingly......every one of these systems requires the use of a living being as part of the chain....
Almost as if living things were a requirement to make PPE......

That would qualify as an unproven opinion, one that's also contradicted by the existence of Ley Lines which produce large amounts of PPE and can exist and do so even on dead moons or stretching through the depths of space without any life around for light years.

Magic Crystals, too. Let's not forget those, either.

taalismn wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

eliakon wrote:Interestingly......every one of these systems requires the use of a living being as part of the chain....
Almost as if living things were a requirement to make PPE......

That would qualify as an unproven opinion, one that's also contradicted by the existence of Ley Lines which produce large amounts of PPE and can exist and do so even on dead moons or stretching through the depths of space without any life around for light years.

Magic Crystals, too. Let's not forget those, either.

Where are those at? Either way all it really means is that while living things are the most common source of PPE they are by no means the only way of producing or acquiring it.

This subject has been argued to death.

◊To Produce PPE you need a living being.

◊To Gather PPE you need magic or a living being. Even then it is only gathering the ambient PPE in the environment.

▲Unless the 'magic crystals' are 'living' they would only gather the ambient PPE.

✦Ley Lines do not produce PPE, they Are PPE. It is just the stronger the LL the more PPE can be pulled out of it by a single mage.
✦Yes, there are space ley lines and space LLN and space super LLN.
------------------
✡It takes a living being to destroy PPE as per the Rifts Machinations of Doom comic/book.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:This subject has been argued to death.

◊To Produce PPE you need a living being.

◊To Gather PPE you need magic or a living being. Even then it is only gathering the ambient PPE in the environment.

▲Unless the 'magic crystals' are 'living' they would only gather the ambient PPE.

✦Ley Lines do not produce PPE, they Are PPE. It is just the stronger the LL the more PPE can be pulled out of it by a single mage.
✦Yes, there are space ley lines and space LLN and space super LLN.
------------------
✡It takes a living being to destroy PPE as per the Rifts Machinations of Doom comic/book.

Seconded.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:This subject has been argued to death.

◊To Produce PPE you need a living being.

◊To Gather PPE you need magic or a living being. Even then it is only gathering the ambient PPE in the environment.

▲Unless the 'magic crystals' are 'living' they would only gather the ambient PPE.

✦Ley Lines do not produce PPE, they Are PPE. It is just the stronger the LL the more PPE can be pulled out of it by a single mage.
✦Yes, there are space ley lines and space LLN and space super LLN.
------------------
✡It takes a living being to destroy PPE as per the Rifts Machinations of Doom comic/book.

No you don't need a living being to produce PPE, that's just your opinion and just what evidence do you have that Ley Lines DON'T produce PPE, or that somehow they aren't proof PPE exists and is produced without any life forms required? Because there certainly aren't any declarations that only Living things produce PPE or that Ley Lines are alive. You also can't destroy PPE anymore than you can destroy any other energy.

I love bending and flexing rules.

Other than one specific Psionic and one specific dbee i cam find no means to transfer electricity into ppe.

So generating electricity is cool, can have a ppe powered generator.

A ppe generator powered by electricity....

Maybe with a Hardware Analytical Specialist having analyzed one....

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:.

What he said.
Minerals and non-living materials are just effective sponges for magic energy, and leylines like channels for water run-off(the 'water' in this case being PPE). Certain TW apparatus might APPEAR to generate PPE from nothing, but what they're really doing is tapping into existing reservoirs of PPE.

Now, the metaquestion is, is PPE the underlying energy of the universe and it's most easily tapped into via living organisms, or is all the free PPE in the universe actually the result of accumulation over mindboggling spans of time from a megaversal bio-mass converting other forms of energy into bio-energy and then into PPE?

Krill or some type of small living organism to generate ppe and be sacrificed.

NM you argue that I am just stating my opinion. Yes it is my opinion, but it is an opinion supported by all the different places in the PB gamebooks that talk about what LL and PPE are in the PB megaverse.



LL are places that PPE gathers to.
Like how water gathers to a stream or river.

say652 wrote:Krill or some type of small living organism to generate ppe and be sacrificed.

Like I said; how many tons of krill are you able to kill all at once to harvest any usable amount of PPE?
Those had better be some sort of PPE-super-saturated glow-blue leyline shrimp you're using.
In some cases, the amount of energy and effort you'd put into sacrificing something is more than it's worth in the PPE you'd need to do something. It might just be easier to use all that energy and material to pull off whatever you're trying to do, using more conventional means.

Moonshade Bento Box.

Twelve pieces of sushi, two coi swimming in pool in the center of box.

Regrow sushi within one minute, gain 1ppe per piece of sushi eaten.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:NM you argue that I am just stating my opinion. Yes it is my opinion, but it is an opinion supported by all the different places in the PB gamebooks that talk about what LL and PPE are in the PB megaverse.



LL are places that PPE gathers to.
Like how water gathers to a stream or river.

Correct
Rivers have water flowing through them...they do not make water though

eliakon wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:NM you argue that I am just stating my opinion. Yes it is my opinion, but it is an opinion supported by all the different places in the PB gamebooks that talk about what LL and PPE are in the PB megaverse.



LL are places that PPE gathers to.
Like how water gathers to a stream or river.

Correct
Rivers have water flowing through them...they do not make water though

Except Ley Lines aren't rivers nor is it written that PPE can only come about from living organisms and cannot be generated via non-living means.