TW Lumbermill

[Rockwolf66]

As I don't usually play around with TW devices I have to ask beyond "Create Wood" and possibly "Ironwood" (for MDC lumber).

How would one create a TW Lumber mill where one pumps in PPE and it cranks out board feet of usable Lumber? I mean like if one was going to build a house.

[Mack]

That's a pretty straight forward setup. I'll work up a version later today when I can sit down for a few minutes.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Since the create wood pulls in wood fibers from the enviroment you could incluse an ability of the mill to pull the "patter" for the type of wood it copies from a specific spot on the mill. so if you want cherry wood boards you would put a sample of cherry wood in/on that spot and the mill makes cherry wood boards.


This does mean if the operator has a lybrary of different woods he could make any of them on demand. Even if he only has a examle of an exoict wood that only grow on the other side of the world or on some other world,

[flatline]

Since the create wood pulls in wood fibers from the enviroment ...

I've always hated that part of the spell description. It implies that the spell shouldn't work in any environment that doesn't already have wood present (in a space ship, deep in a cave, etc).

It also raises awkward questions:
"does it weaken nearby wooden objects?"
"how far away does the wood need to be to be beyond the reach of the spell?"

--flatline

[Mack]

OK, here's a couple versions:

First Version, creates 25 normal boards. Each board is 2in x 4in x 10ft.

Device Level 5
Spell: Create Wood (20 PPE - the hardwood version)
Gems: 10 carats of Amber
Base PPE Construction Cost: 100 PPE
Activation Cost: 5 PPE (no PPE storage within the device, but could be added)
Time to Build the device: 50 hours (6.3 workdays)
Cost to Build: 11,000 credits
Sale Price in Magical Mack's Workshop: 21,000 credits

Second Version, creates 25 MDC boards. Each board is 2in x 4in x 10ft. (Also, you'll need MDC tools to cut and shape the wood.)

Device Level 5
Spells: Create Wood (20 PPE - the hardwood version), and Ironwood (500 PPE, yes five hundred, see notes)
Gems: 20 carats of Amber (primary), plus 1 carat Amber (secondary)
Base PPE Construction Cost: 1,300 PPE
Activation Cost: 65 PPE (no PPE storage within the device, but could be added)
Time to Build the device: 650 hours (81.3 workdays)
Cost to Build: 77,600 credits
Sale Price in Magical Mack's Workshop: 225,000 credits

Notes:
- I changed the output from logs to boards for convenience.
- The spell creates 100 pounds per level, or 500 pounds in this case. The weight of a normal pressure treated board is around 20 pounds... thus 500 / 20 is how I got 25 boards. I'm sure someone could put some more rigor behind this, but I figure it's a good enough estimate for a game.
- The Ironwood spell has a variable PPE cost. Some rough math puts it at about 1 PPE per 1 pound... thus converting the 500 pounds generated requires 500 PPE.
- The base machine for both versions is an industrial log planer. Considering what this magical device does, I figure it needs to be a big, heavy piece of equipment to fit the 'theme' requirements. Also, a planer is used to convert a rough cut lumber to a finished board, so it dovetails with the idea of switching the output from logs to finished boards.
- I could totally see mounting one of these on a trailer (or in the back of a hover truck) and traveling around wilderness communities.
- As always with TW items, your mileage may vary.

[SpiritInterface]

Why TW? Why not a normal lumber mill?

[Bill]

Why TW? Why not a normal lumber mill?

Portability. This device could be small enough to assemble from a backpack or fit on the back of a truck. And, since the specific wording of create wood is "particles and fibers" (it does not stipulate wood fibers by the way), pretty much anyplace you've got dust or organic matter you can set it up rather than just in places with forests. It would be especially useful on Wormwood and other worlds where there are no natural forests and the only trees are those intentionally planted in gardens of imported dirt.

[drewkitty ~..~]

snip.... And, since the specific wording of create wood is "particles and fibers" (it does not stipulate wood fibers by the way), ...snip

The wording stipulates, or that it is understood, that the "particles and fibers" are wood fibers, it does not Specifically say that they have to be wood fibers.

Just like that in the US Federal Constitution when it talks about 'marriage and stats rights' it was stipulated that everyone knew that marriage is between a man & a woman. Even though that was not specifically stated in the constitution.

[Bill]

snip.... And, since the specific wording of create wood is "particles and fibers" (it does not stipulate wood fibers by the way), ...snip

That the wording stipulates, or that it is understood, that the "particles and fibers" are wood fibers, it does not Specifically say that they are wood fibers.

Just like that in the US Federal Constitution when it talks about 'marriage and stats rights' it was stipulated that everyone knew that marriage is between a man & a woman. Even though that was not specifically stated in the constitution.

The utility of the spell is deeply compromised if it is interpreted as wood fibers. The end result may look and act like wood, but it does not need to begin there. The rest of your post is inflammatory and inappropriate for this subforum.

[Mack]

drewkitty & Bill,

There's no reason to get into that, or respond to it, on this forum.

Good Gaming,
Mack

[Library Ogre]

Why TW? Why not a normal lumber mill?

Portability. This device could be small enough to assemble from a backpack or fit on the back of a truck. And, since the specific wording of create wood is "particles and fibers" (it does not stipulate wood fibers by the way), pretty much anyplace you've got dust or organic matter you can set it up rather than just in places with forests. It would be especially useful on Wormwood and other worlds where there are no natural forests and the only trees are those intentionally planted in gardens of imported dirt.

Or, hell, set it up in a forest, and harvest your trees and turn them into boards at the same time. Just make sure to include Energy Field so you don't get bonked on the head by falling trees.

[drewkitty ~..~]

To me it says that the spell is using the particles and fibers as a template on what wood will the final product will be. Which is why I made my earlier suggestion.

Sort of like how the transporter in ST needs a DNA pattern so it can rebuild the person.


Which also means that without the example of a specific wood type the spell will make the wood that would of ecologically came from the area it is being produced. Be that area be a different hill, state, continent or world.

[Bill]

I see where you're coming from, but I disagree. It's magically reconstituting one form of matter into another and doesn't require any reasonable explanation or relationship to exist. The type of wood created is either "soft" or "hard" too, not a specific breed of wood. It may as well be describing a material that is functionally wood but in no other way related.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Having reread the spell...
The spell makes strong particle boards.

Sooo a Lumber mill operator would hire a mage with the create wood spell to recycle the sawdust that was made from cutting up the trees into boards.
------
And like with the 'create water' spell the 'create wood' spell would not work in a space/area that had no fibers to 'glue' together.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Create Wood (Greater)
Level: 6
Range: appears within 20' of the mage.
Duration: Created over 5 seconds, Permanent.
Saving Throw: n/a
PPE: 20 per casting.

Unlike the lesser spell, this spell creates the wood (from anywhere between bark encrusted logs and finished boards [finished boards requiring no sanding except for any new cuts.]) without having to gather up a physical components to make the wood out of. However, if the mage wishes to recreate a particular type of wood (species) then she needs a sample of that wood for the spell to sample the pattern of it. If there is no sample of wood to use as a pattern, or the mage does not have any idea in her head about what the wood should be (soft- or hardwood), the spell creates a white wood that is as light as yellow-poplar (40 board feet per 100 lb.).

This spell creates 100 pounds of wood per level of the mage casting the spell with each casting. However, the mage can add in extra PPE to create larger batches of wood if they want large planks, beams or logs.

Artists and Artisan mages (they have the relevant skills at a professional quality) can use this spell to make fully formed wooden items ready for the final detail workings. It takes a skill roll and only makes one individual item per casting. A skill roll is made for each item made this way, and a failed roll means the product of the spell is only fit for firewood.

(updated)

[Bill]

So the spell makes strong particle boards.

Sooo a Lumber mill operator would hire a mage with the create wood spell to recycle the sawdust that was made from cutting up the trees into boards.
------
And like with the 'create water' spell the 'create wood' spell would not work in a space/area that had no fibers to 'glue' together.

I understood you the first time. I still disagree with you. While sawdust would be an excellent source of particles and fibers, dust is present even in the vacuum of space. As it's written the only place the spell shouldn't work is a clean-room. If you want to house rule it into a less effective tool, you certainly can though.

[glitterboy2098]

if the spell requires raw wood like materials to re-purpose magically into real wood.. build it into a regular Mill, and convert all the scrap bits and sawdust into more lumber.

[Brayon]

After reading the Spell description, I'm inclined to agree with Bill. Using the exact Canon text, it uses ANY available atmospheric Dust & Particles to Create the Wood. Having a TW device that is in-essence a portable lumber mill, is icing on the cake for any entrepreneurial Wizard to make a killing at.

Since the create wood pulls in wood fibers from the enviroment you could incluse an ability of the mill to pull the "patter" for the type of wood it copies from a specific spot on the mill. so if you want cherry wood boards you would put a sample of cherry wood in/on that spot and the mill makes cherry wood boards.


This does mean if the operator has a lybrary of different woods he could make any of them on demand. Even if he only has a example of an exoict wood that only grow on the other side of the world or on some other world,

This could be added to a TW device, with perhaps some sort of Analyzing Spell, or even a Psi-Tech device for Object Read thrown into the mix. Still very profitable for a Wizard to make some serious credits.

[drewkitty ~..~]

snip...
This could be added to a TW device, with perhaps some sort of Analyzing Spell, or even a Psi-Tech device for Object Read thrown into the mix. Still very profitable for a Wizard to make some serious credits.

Or you could write up a whole new spell to fit the name of the spell better.

[SpiritInterface]

Why TW? Why not a normal lumber mill?

Portability. This device could be small enough to assemble from a backpack or fit on the back of a truck. And, since the specific wording of create wood is "particles and fibers" (it does not stipulate wood fibers by the way), pretty much anyplace you've got dust or organic matter you can set it up rather than just in places with forests. It would be especially useful on Wormwood and other worlds where there are no natural forests and the only trees are those intentionally planted in gardens of imported dirt.

Anything able to put enough board feet of wood for construction would be that small and require a massive amount of PPE just to construct much less run. You can put everything you need for a standard lumber mill on a flatbed pick up.

One question people need to ask before they go all TW on whatever, they need to stop and ask "is making this TW going to make it better? is this going to make it cheeper?"

[flatline]

Why TW? Why not a normal lumber mill?

Portability. This device could be small enough to assemble from a backpack or fit on the back of a truck. And, since the specific wording of create wood is "particles and fibers" (it does not stipulate wood fibers by the way), pretty much anyplace you've got dust or organic matter you can set it up rather than just in places with forests. It would be especially useful on Wormwood and other worlds where there are no natural forests and the only trees are those intentionally planted in gardens of imported dirt.

Anything able to put enough board feet of wood for construction would be that small and require a massive amount of PPE just to construct much less run. You can put everything you need for a standard lumber mill on a flatbed pick up.

One question people need to ask before they go all TW on whatever, they need to stop and ask "is making this TW going to make it better? is this going to make it cheeper?"

Smaller is often better.

Being able to create wood on the spot rather than transporting and processing logs seems like a huge benefit, especially in areas where trees are not plentiful.

When PPE is plentiful, being able to convert that PPE into a valuable durable good seems like a good thing.

What's not to like?

[Library Ogre]

Why TW? Why not a normal lumber mill?

Portability. This device could be small enough to assemble from a backpack or fit on the back of a truck. And, since the specific wording of create wood is "particles and fibers" (it does not stipulate wood fibers by the way), pretty much anyplace you've got dust or organic matter you can set it up rather than just in places with forests. It would be especially useful on Wormwood and other worlds where there are no natural forests and the only trees are those intentionally planted in gardens of imported dirt.

Anything able to put enough board feet of wood for construction would be that small and require a massive amount of PPE just to construct much less run. You can put everything you need for a standard lumber mill on a flatbed pick up.

One question people need to ask before they go all TW on whatever, they need to stop and ask "is making this TW going to make it better? is this going to make it cheeper?"

Using the original version of the spell (which draws local particles into the spell, creating the wood), it saves you TONS of time and money, since you don't really need lumberjacks, and damage caused by felling trees is negated by reconstitution. You may also get more board feet out of a given area, as it utilized sections (and particles) that would otherwise be too small to be useful. Load it on a Big Bertha and start making lumber. Trees more or less disintegrate. If you can rig up a portable ley line power converter (letting you hook any TW device into a local ley line), you can have it running non-stop. Your main problem is now transport and storage.

[Nightmask]

Since the create wood pulls in wood fibers from the enviroment ...

I've always hated that part of the spell description. It implies that the spell shouldn't work in any environment that doesn't already have wood present (in a space ship, deep in a cave, etc).

It also raises awkward questions:
"does it weaken nearby wooden objects?"
"how far away does the wood need to be to be beyond the reach of the spell?"

--flatline

When did they change the definition of the spell to have it doing something like that? Because it originally said it simply pulled in 'loose' atoms that it arranged into the wood fibers of the board desired, it wasn't a version of 'Create Steel' that simply recycled wood from the surroundings to make fresh boards.

[eliakon]

Since the create wood pulls in wood fibers from the enviroment ...

I've always hated that part of the spell description. It implies that the spell shouldn't work in any environment that doesn't already have wood present (in a space ship, deep in a cave, etc).

It also raises awkward questions:
"does it weaken nearby wooden objects?"
"how far away does the wood need to be to be beyond the reach of the spell?"

--flatline

When did they change the definition of the spell to have it doing something like that? Because it originally said it simply pulled in 'loose' atoms that it arranged into the wood fibers of the board desired, it wasn't a version of 'Create Steel' that simply recycled wood from the surroundings to make fresh boards.

It doesn't it says "Create Wood does just that. It forces magical energy to draw together particles and fibers from the surrounding are and area, bond them together and multiply them on a molecular level to create wood."
It doesn't say that it requires wood particles or wood fibers, or that it will take the particles/fibers from objects (area yes, but not objects, the implication is that the must be loose already).
So as written it will work with dust, lint, sand, dandruff....what ever particles and fibers are around.

[Tor]

As the availability of Create Coal and Create Wood and Create Bread & Milk increase and the amount of Techno-Wizards increase, the cost of energy, lumber and sustenance approach zero.

[flatline]

As the availability of Create Coal and Create Wood and Create Bread & Milk increase and the amount of Techno-Wizards increase, the cost of energy, lumber and sustenance approach zero.

It doesn't approach zero, it approaches the value of PPE which is largely determined by what other uses you have for PPE.

[drewkitty ~..~]

It doesn't it says "Create Wood does just that. It forces magical energy to draw together particles and fibers from the surrounding are and area, bond them together and multiply them on a molecular level to create wood."
It doesn't say that it requires wood particles or wood fibers, or that it will take the particles/fibers from objects (area yes, but not objects, the implication is that the must be loose already).
So as written it will work with dust, lint, sand, dandruff....what ever particles and fibers are around.

So if there are only say polyurethane fibers in the environment the spell would make 'Plastic' 'wood'/boards.

[Brayon]

When did they change the definition of the spell to have it doing something like that? Because it originally said it simply pulled in 'loose' atoms that it arranged into the wood fibers of the board desired, it wasn't a version of 'Create Steel' that simply recycled wood from the surroundings to make fresh boards.

It doesn't it says "Create Wood does just that. It forces magical energy to draw together particles and fibers from the surrounding are and area, bond them together and multiply them on a molecular level to create wood."
It doesn't say that it requires wood particles or wood fibers, or that it will take the particles/fibers from objects (area yes, but not objects, the implication is that the must be loose already).
So as written it will work with dust, lint, sand, dandruff....what ever particles and fibers are around.

So if there are only say polyurethane fibers in the environment the spell would make 'Plastic' 'wood'/boards.

Nope. The spell takes those particles, & reforms it into Wood at the subatomic level, via a Magical Process.

[eliakon]

When did they change the definition of the spell to have it doing something like that? Because it originally said it simply pulled in 'loose' atoms that it arranged into the wood fibers of the board desired, it wasn't a version of 'Create Steel' that simply recycled wood from the surroundings to make fresh boards.

It doesn't it says "Create Wood does just that. It forces magical energy to draw together particles and fibers from the surrounding are and area, bond them together and multiply them on a molecular level to create wood."
It doesn't say that it requires wood particles or wood fibers, or that it will take the particles/fibers from objects (area yes, but not objects, the implication is that the must be loose already).
So as written it will work with dust, lint, sand, dandruff....what ever particles and fibers are around.

So if there are only say polyurethane fibers in the environment the spell would make 'Plastic' 'wood'/boards.

(Fixed the quotes for you)
Nope, it still makes wood. Since it explicitly says that it will create wood. Not 'create something that is similar/identical to the originating particles and fibers' but wood. Ergo it creates wood. To get any other result would require a new custom variant spell that has its own different properties. So no, one can not use this in a room full of gold dust and then claim that your getting several hundred pounds of gold 'wood' generated out of the dust. You just get a bunch of regular old, boring wood generated (hint soft and hard are kinds of wood, plastic and gold are not)

[glitterboy2098]

palladium magic does transmutations easily. not many spells conjure matter out of thin air though.

[drewkitty ~..~]

transmutations.....err...uhmm..no (PB magic has not any magic that changes one element into another.)
Metamorphisises, yes. (temp. changing of one living thing into another living thing)

Along with temporary physical objects, yes.
----
Creation of perm physical stuff: Create mike and bread, create steal, create Wood.

Then there is energizing a physical component with magic.
And shooting magic effects. fire bolt/-ball, call lighting, energy bolt.

[eliakon]

transmutations.....err...uhmm..no (PB magic has not any magic that changes one element into another.)

Well since this exact spell transforms things that are not wood into wood that seems to be a transmutation.
Stone to Flesh and Petrification are also Transmutations.

[Nightmask]

transmutations.....err...uhmm..no (PB magic has not any magic that changes one element into another.)

Well since this exact spell transforms things that are not wood into wood that seems to be a transmutation.
Stone to Flesh and Petrification are also Transmutations.

Collecting things from the surroundings and assembling them into wood isn't a transformation though, the original elements aren't being changed they're just being rearranged into a different configuration. So no transformation involved, although the other spells do qualify.

[eliakon]

transmutations.....err...uhmm..no (PB magic has not any magic that changes one element into another.)

Well since this exact spell transforms things that are not wood into wood that seems to be a transmutation.
Stone to Flesh and Petrification are also Transmutations.

Collecting things from the surroundings and assembling them into wood isn't a transformation though, the original elements aren't being changed they're just being rearranged into a different configuration. So no transformation involved, although the other spells do qualify.

If you gather lint, dust, sand, metal shavings, and pet hair, and cat dander.......and end up with wood I am going to go out on a limb and say that yes, there was a transmutation/transformation involved. Its not called "make big chunks of metallic cat skin" after all and none of those things going in to the product is wood, and yet wood is what you are getting out. So it would seem that some part of the "draw together particles and fibers from the surrounding are and area, bond them together and multiply them on a molecular level to create wood." process involves changing stuff that is not wood into wood.

[drewkitty ~..~]

It doesn't it says "Create Wood does just that. It forces magical energy to draw together particles and fibers from the surrounding are and area, bond them together and multiply them on a molecular level to create wood."
It doesn't say that it requires wood particles or wood fibers, or that it will take the particles/fibers from objects (area yes, but not objects, the implication is that the must be loose already).
So as written it will work with dust, lint, sand, dandruff....what ever particles and fibers are around.

To put in higher grade level of wording, the Create wood spell samples the surroundings for wood particles and then uses those samples as the base pattern to create the physical wood out of.

The spell says it works at the molecular level.

Thus, the Create Wood spell is not transmuting, it is creating. Which is why I put it with the other creating perm physical matter spells.

Otherwise you just have a a form of 'particle board' that was magically put together instead of 'pressed & glued'.
-------
Petrification and Stone to Flesh....yep those are just about it for canon transmutation spells. So what I said was about 99.5% correct.
-------
On the matter of where the Create Wood spell gets it's particles...since trees are a living thing the spell would not be gathering any particles from a living tree. Dead trees, branches, deadwood on the ground, or sawdust would be fair game for the spell though.

[Bill]

To put in higher grade level of wording, the Create wood spell samples the surroundings for wood particles and then uses those samples as the base pattern to create the physical wood out of.

It does not say anything to that effect. You're using a house-rule with this spell.

[drewkitty ~..~]

To put in higher grade level of wording, the Create wood spell samples the surroundings for wood particles and then uses those samples as the base pattern to create the physical wood out of.

It does not say anything to that effect. You're using a house-rule with this spell.

gathering particles from the surroundings= sampling from the surroundings
Multiplying them at a molecular level= using the samples as a pattern to create the physical wood.

paraphrasing=changing the words of what was said without changing the meaning of what was said.
(at least that is the core ideal of paraphrasing) I did Say I was doing this.

What I was paraphrasing was the section of the spell that Eli quoted in the post I quoted, and I had underlined the quote (& now also is highlighted).
------------
I did not say the wood created would have a grain nor did I say the wood created would have rings. But both are implied by the spell's use of the word "wood".

[Nightmask]

transmutations.....err...uhmm..no (PB magic has not any magic that changes one element into another.)

Well since this exact spell transforms things that are not wood into wood that seems to be a transmutation.
Stone to Flesh and Petrification are also Transmutations.

Collecting things from the surroundings and assembling them into wood isn't a transformation though, the original elements aren't being changed they're just being rearranged into a different configuration. So no transformation involved, although the other spells do qualify.

If you gather lint, dust, sand, metal shavings, and pet hair, and cat dander.......and end up with wood I am going to go out on a limb and say that yes, there was a transmutation/transformation involved. Its not called "make big chunks of metallic cat skin" after all and none of those things going in to the product is wood, and yet wood is what you are getting out. So it would seem that some part of the "draw together particles and fibers from the surrounding are and area, bond them together and multiply them on a molecular level to create wood." process involves changing stuff that is not wood into wood.

Right, and where does it say it's explicitly drawing in things like metal and actually altering the atoms in order to make them into the elements necessary to create wood cells? It's saying it's drawing in the loose stuff in the environment to make the wood not that it's drawing it in and engaging in elemental transmutation in order to make it work. Rearranging yes, that seems reasonable, not elemental transmutation since it's not like wood requires anything special and the basic elements involved in creating wood are everywhere. The spell simply reaches out, grabs suitable elements based on the spell choice, and builds up the wood cells from that.

[Jefffar]

We seem to have a lot of posts about the Create Wood spell and very few about the TW Lumbermill here.

I'd suggest that if you want to discuss Create Wood you make a thread about that spell and discuss it there so the TW Lumbermill posts don't get lost here.

[eliakon]

We seem to have a lot of posts about the Create Wood spell and very few about the TW Lumbermill here.

I'd suggest that if you want to discuss Create Wood you make a thread about that spell and discuss it there so the TW Lumbermill posts don't get lost here.

Thread Created
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=149643

[drewkitty ~..~]

I agree with the idea that the TW Lumber Mill should be covered by a roof of some sort for work within a forested area for the reason that the system needs to be protected from falling debris. Dead branches, the velociraptor that wandered into the area, or kids getting into trouble.

[Tor]

It doesn't approach zero, it approaches the value of PPE

The value of PPE also approaches zero as numbers of living beings and encroachments around ley lines with people able to draw from them increase.

Increased availability of Coal/Wood/Bread/Milk would naturally lead to increased numbers of living beings and greater ease of establishing ley line outposts.

[taalismn]

I agree with the idea that the TW Lumber Mill should be covered by a roof of some sort for work within a forested area for the reason that the system needs to be protected from falling debris. Dead branches, the velociraptor that wandered into the area, or kids getting into trouble.

Pinnochio getting turned into a rocking chair, for instance.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I agree with the idea that the TW Lumber Mill should be covered by a roof of some sort for work within a forested area for the reason that the system needs to be protected from falling debris. Dead branches, the velociraptor that wandered into the area, or kids getting into trouble.

Pinnochio getting turned into a rocking chair, for instance.

Was more saying to protect the TWLM from kids wandering about looking for something to get into trouble over.