Chi?

[Grimaold]

How about Chi? Would you have it be separate from P.P.E/I.S.P.? How does Chi interact with P.P.E/I.S.P.? What is the cannon on this? Where should I look? In the edition of NSS I got (from 1989) it only talks about adding Chi to characters in the fantasy game, but it does say "most characters will have a normal amount of Chi".

[Tinker Dragoon]

How about Chi? Would you have it be separate from P.P.E/I.S.P.?

It used to be, in Ninjas & Superspies/Mystic China. Rifts discards most of the rules and concepts of Chi (polarity of Chi, Chi infection, etc.), and just uses P.P.E. (Rifts Japan) or I.S.P. (Rifts China 1 & 2, Revised Rifts Conversion Book 1) to cover the cost of Martial Art Powers that use Chi (the Rifts China books retain some references to Chi/I.S.P. having polarity, but this has no effect in terms of game mechanics), while other campaign settings (HU, PF, etc.) really don't address Chi at all.

How does Chi interact with P.P.E/I.S.P.? What is the cannon on this? Where should I look? In the edition of NSS I got (from 1989) it only talks about adding Chi to characters in the fantasy game, but it does say "most characters will have a normal amount of Chi".

In general, there is no interaction between Chi and P.P.E. or I.S.P.

Mystic China offers an entire system (three systems, if you want to split hairs) of Chi Magic that combines Chi and P.P.E. in various ways (including spells that convert between the two forces), and has several Chi- and P.P.E.- powered creatures, but as mentioned previously, Rifts replaces Chi with the other energies.

If you want Chi, P.P.E., and I.S.P. to coexist in your campaign, then Mystic China is probably the best sourcebook to go with.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Chi is separate from PPE and ISP even though there are aspects of both in it.
Attention, health, life and used to heal are the words used in N&S to describe what chi is. (N&Sr page 16.)

Negative Chi is associated with the underground, death and undeath. (Through out the Mystic china sourcebook.)

What it is in the PB game system is another mystic power source working on a different level from magic and psionics. It has it's own aspects in how it can be used.

When used in a rifts book the word Chi is but meaningless flavor text. Rifts Character Classes only have access to PPE or ISP to fuel their mystic endeavors.

Mystic China sourcebook, while there are living Chi beings [both positive (spirit foxes) and negative (infernals/demons)] the concept of negative PPE is not in this book. Furthermore, I do not know of anywhere in any of the PB game books with this concept in it.

It is up to individual GMs to decide if they are willing to have any of the mystic powers in their game. If they don't want any at all that is also an option. However, doing away with mystical powers and abilities is easier in some and hard in others due to the integration of the mystic into nearly every PB setting. The only one I can think of that doesn't have anything mystic in nature in it is Recon.

as to the conversion rates....PPE and Chi are 1 to 6.
in TW stuff the conversion rate between PPE and ISP is 1 to 2
in Psionicly built/empowered items the conversion rate between PPE and ISP is 2 to 1. (yes inverted from the TW conversion rate.)

[eliakon]

Chi is separate from PPE and ISP even though there are aspects of both in it.
Attention, health, life and used to heal are the words used in N&S to describe what chi is. (N&Sr page 16.)

Negative Chi is associated with the underground, death and undeath. (Through out the Mystic china sourcebook.)

What it is in the PB game system is another mystic power source working on a different level from magic and psionics. It has it's own aspects in how it can be used.

When used in a rifts book the word Chi is but meaningless flavor text. Rifts Character Classes only have access to PPE or ISP to fuel their mystic endeavors.

I wouldn't say its meaningless, especially since Rifts China has rules for Rifts Chi...
Its just not the same as the N&SS CHI.

Mystic China sourcebook, while there are living Chi beings [both positive (spirit foxes) and negative (infernals/demons)] the concept of negative PPE is not in this book. Furthermore, I do not know of anywhere in any of the PB game books with this concept in it.

The Life Force Wizards in Nimiro are described as having anti-PPE or negative PPE.

It is up to individual GMs to decide if they are willing to have any of the mystic powers in their game. If they don't want any at all that is also an option. However, doing away with mystical powers and abilities is easier in some and hard in others due to the integration of the mystic into nearly every PB setting. The only one I can think of that doesn't have anything mystic in nature in it is Recon.

As of right now there is nothing supernatural at all in Splicers either.

as to the conversion rates....PPE and Chi are 1 to 6.
in TW stuff the conversion rate between PPE and ISP is 1 to 2
in Psionicly built/empowered items the conversion rate between PPE and ISP is 2 to 1. (yes inverted from the TW conversion rate.)

What book is the Psionic rate coming from?

[drewkitty ~..~]

Rifts As TD said before me Rifts just uses PPE and ISP. The Word chi is used in the flavor text in both the Japan and China worldbooks. And the japan book uses PPE and china uses ISP to fuel their MA powers. As such the word Chi was just used in the rifts worldbooks and dimension-books as throw away flavor text, not saying what the powers use.
(DB3 PW sb, Oni Ninja, even though it is spelled 'Ki' & where they use I.S.P. for the M.A.P.)

The only exception I might make is that the RCB1&RCB1r has some text about Chi in rifts that is not meaningless flavor text. But even those text have been taken to say that Chi is ISP or the chi powers are Psi powers in rifts by posters.

-PPE: I could not find any mention of -PPE not anti-PPE in the class text. Please tell us exactly where this in mentioned. (section/paragraph/sentence)

Splicers: I was remembering a psionic Comms that I know that got used in one Hunt game but can't find them no even though I found them the last time I made a splicers suit.

SA2 in the (psi) Gizmoteer device construction text.

[eliakon]

Rifts As TD said before me Rifts just uses PPE and ISP. The Word chi is used in the flavor text in both the Japan and China worldbooks. And the japan book uses PPE and china uses ISP to fuel their MA powers. As such the word Chi was just used in the rifts worldbooks and dimension-books as throw away flavor text, not saying what the powers use.
(DB3 PW sb, Oni Ninja, even though it is spelled 'Ki' & where they use I.S.P. for the M.A.P.)

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean its just 'flavor text'
Since the Chinese Chi system has an actual specific difference from Psionics it Means Something.....
It's just that what is meant by the word Chi in the Rifts game is not what is meant by the word Chi in the Ninja's and Superspies' game.

The only exception I might make is that the RCB1&RCB1r has some text about Chi in rifts that is not meaningless flavor text. But even those text have been taken to say that Chi is ISP or the chi powers are Psi powers in rifts by posters.

Again just because you chose to ignore the meanings of the words doesn't mean that they don't have meanings....

-PPE: I could not find any mention of -PPE not anti-PPE in the class text. Please tell us exactly where this in mentioned. (section/paragraph/sentence)

I'll look it up and see if I can find it.
It is possible that I may be recalling a discussion from elsewhere about the mechanics of how the 'PPE Black Hole' effect worked, in which case it would be my mistake.

Splicers: I was remembering a psionic Comms that I know that got used in one Hunt game but can't find them no even though I found them the last time I made a splicers suit.

The Bio-Comm system is not psionic. There was a house rule made in the Hunt game that changed that because it was more amusing to make it psionic...but RAW it is not psionic in any way.

SA2 in the (psi) Gizmoteer device construction text.

Ah, I thought there was a general rule, and not just that specific one for those unique devices.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Stating where the word chi is used in rifts is not me stating my preferences.
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The RCB1 and RCB1r:a) It is not ME!! ignoring what was written in the text. So don't go off as if it ME! be who is not reading what is there.
b) Again this is the 2nd time this week you are not responding to to the Quote YOU! quoted. I Will Ask you to stop this. And limit your comments to what you quoted.
And "IF" you are making the SAME comment as You just made about another quote, then make the quote longer. Don't say the same thing twice.
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Bio-comm....Just read the text and it seams they are describing a psionic thing while desperately trying not to say it is a psion thing.
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SA2 in the (psi) Gizmoteer device construction text.

Ah, I thought there was a general rule, and not just that specific one for those unique devices.

Until there are another of the same vein, what is stated there is the general rule for when a psionic device accepts PPE to power them.

[eliakon]

Stating where the word chi is used in rifts is not me stating my preferences.

No, but claiming that it has no meaning is. When the books clearly state that Chi has a contextual meaning (ISP Chi is not the same as ISP Psionics in China and is explicitly different.)
The books have different definitions for the word "chi" depending on which game you are playing. By definition the game gets to define its own words so it would seem that when they say what a word means that they are the ones that decide if it has meaning or not.

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The RCB1 and RCB1r:a) It is not ME!! ignoring what was written in the text. So don't go off as if it ME! be who is not reading what is there.

I wasn't "Going off on as if ME!" I was refuting your false statement that it was 'meaningless fluff' when it was not used to your liking.
Regardless of how you complain that this is some how a personal attack....it isn't. Words have meanings, the books have used the words in ways that they have chosen, thus if you are choosing to say that those meanings are in fact not there, then yes, that is a personal view.

b) Again this is the 2nd time this week you are not responding to to the Quote YOU! quoted. I Will Ask you to stop this. And limit your comments to what you quoted.

I am. You are saying it is a meaningless fluff word. I am saying that it isn't a meaningless fluff word. That is replying to your statement. Negation of what I believe to be a false claim is sort of the definition of 'replying to what I quoted'.

And "IF" you are making the SAME comment as You just made about another quote, then make the quote longer. Don't say the same thing twice.

*shrugs* why not? If your going to say the same (false) thing multiple times it seems appropriate to refute it each time....
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Bio-comm....Just read the text and it seams they are describing a psionic thing while desperately trying not to say it is a psion thing.

If you want to call it psionics for your game sure....
but canonically...it is some sort of advanced technology that works on some sort of handwavium.
Since the question is "what is in the rules as written" then, no there is no psionics in Splicers.
Could a GM houserule the Biocomm to be psi? Sure. But RAW it isn't.

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SA2 in the (psi) Gizmoteer device construction text.

Ah, I thought there was a general rule, and not just that specific one for those unique devices.

Until there are other of the same vein, what is stated there is the general rule for when a psionic device accepts PPE to power them.

That's circular though. There is only one psionic device that accepts PPE to power it.....
But whatever its not really important here.

[eliakon]

For what it is worth the most recent canon statement on Chi can be found in Rifter 71/72 in the "Some thoughts on Megaversal Adventures" article.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The Rifts Japan book the MA powers there use PPE and the MA powers in the Rifts china books use ISP. There is not getting around those facts.
When there is only one place that covers one said thing, then that is The Generalized rule.
Mocking me does not change these facts.

[eliakon]

The Rifts Japan book the MA powers there use PPE and the MA powers in the Rifts china books use ISP. There is not getting around those facts.
When there is only one place that covers one said thing, then that is The Generalized rule.
Mocking me does not change these facts.

No mockery.
The simple fact is that in Rifts the word "Chi" has a different meaning that the word does in Ninjas and Superspies.
Personal preference doesn't change this fact. It is simply what is.
The N&SS version of Chi has rules in N&SS yes. And the rules for it are in N&SS. But the rules for the other forms of Chi are in the books that concern them.
Unfortunately those books get to decide if they are about chi or if its a meaningless fluff filler word.
Personally, for me I would have preferred them to do something different for Chi in Rifts....but they didn't. So we are stuck with what they DID do.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The word Chi was used in the meaning less fluff text in the japan and china worldbooks, thus what I said that the use of the word Chi in Rifts books (outside of the RCB1 books) was meaningless is correct.
In meaningless fluff text, thus meaningless.

If you feel otherwise you can go argue with someone else.

[eliakon]

The word Chi was used in the meaning less fluff text in the japan and china worldbooks, thus what I said that the use of the word Chi in Rifts books (outside of the RCB1 books) was meaningless is correct.
In meaningless fluff text, thus meaningless.

If you feel otherwise you can go argue with someone else.

What ever you want to say its not a personal attack to (as your sig line says) say what the books actually say.
In the actual books its not meaningless fluff. (at least not in the China book its not. The Japan book is more vague on the importance, but in the China book it is a rather important distinction that has actual, measurable, game relevant statistical importance. Which is sort of the definition of the opposite of 'meaningless fluff')
Now if you can provide an actual, specific quote from a source to back up your contention that it is actually meaningless then by all means....
Otherwise yeah, its your personal opinion that its meaningless vs. the actual game mechanics.....

[Jefffar]

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