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barna10 wrote:Have you ever seen a mechanic, or worked one up yourself, for Mystics to gain more spells than the ones they gain per level?

This is the scenario I am specifically addressing, what about Mystics that don't level up? Say one becomes a hermit and communes with nature on the top of a mountain for 50 years. He wouldn't gain experience, but he would most likely get wiser and should understand himself, nature, and magic better. Why shouldn't this guy gain more spells during his 50 years?

IMO opinion there needs to be some way for Mystics to acquire spells that doesn't require them to level up.

[EDIT] Hmmm, looking at Born Mystic, "When he is ready to find or make his place by exploring it as an adventurer, the character enters into a meditative trance that lasts six days. At the end of that period, the character intuitively knows how to cast seven specific spells"

Mystic in RUE, "Then, when he is ready to find or make his place in the world. the Mystic enters into six days of meditation. At the end of the sixth day, he somehow knows how to cast eight specific spells."

Then when leveling up, they only gain 2 spells, but maybe this is because they aren't taking the needed time-out to gain more? (Hypothesizing, not asking)

I guess it comes to why can't they simply spend another 6 days and get more spells?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Getting wiser, and understanding yourself, nature and magic better is pretty much the definition of what gaining XP and leveling up entails. becoming a hermit dosn't mean you stop gaining XP or leveling up, you just do it at a somewhat slower pace than adventuring where you force yourself to learn through adversity.

barna10 wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Getting wiser, and understanding yourself, nature and magic better is pretty much the definition of what gaining XP and leveling up entails. becoming a hermit dosn't mean you stop gaining XP or leveling up, you just do it at a somewhat slower pace than adventuring where you force yourself to learn through adversity.

This of course makes some sort of sense, but not game sense.

If this were true, all senior citizens would be high level characters, and last I checked supplements aren't peppered with 15th level dudes in walkers.

barna10 wrote:Also, this goes against the rules for gaining skills where one can gain a skill by spending time in class (thereby by-passing the need to level-up to gain more skills).

barna10 wrote:In addition, what XP would the Hermit gain, by RAW? The playing in character bonus? What time period would he gain this bonus for? Weekly? Monthly? If this is true, wouldn't ALL characters and NPCs receive the same bonus? And further, wouldn't this mean that a dutiful worker that simply went to work everyday for 30 years would be a high level character able to kick-butt and take names? This would mean that EVERY retiree was some bad-mama-jama like in some bad martial arts flick.

barna10 wrote:Sorry, this doesn't make game sense. It screams for a rule that covers gaining skills, improving skills, and gaining spells outside of the leveling mechanic. I wouldn't increase casting level, power level, etc., but I would allow one to get more knowledgeable or better at skills simply by meditating or practice. What makes one "level up" is the trials and tribulations, the tests. Levels are the result of being tossed into the forge of life, not simply going through the motions for 50 years. Yes, one could argue a difference in the case of the hermit, but that would be an isolated type of case, and the hermit should still be able to gain enlightenment without having to meditate for a decade to get one spell.

Prysus wrote:I would go to say that many senior citizens are high level characters (not necessarily level 15 though), they're just NOT an O.C.C. as you know them. Think about it a different way. An electrician goes through training and learns his trade. He is now an electrician. Every day for 30 years, he wakes up and cooks himself breakfast, makes a quick lunch to take with him, goes to work as an electrician working on different problems, then plays a game of chess with his neighbor, cooks dinner, then heads to bed to repeat all over again. By your logic, he'll never improve during those 30 years. Another electrician, fresh out of training, will know just as much as him for the rest of his life. That doesn't make in game sense either. By your logic, he's just as likely to burn the meal he's cooked for 30 years, because he hasn't gotten any better at all. By your logic, he never learned a single move in chess and is just as much a rookie as the day he started.

Mundane characters don't have O.C.C. as you generally know them, and I don't know why you think every citizen is a martial artist. Most characters aren't trained in hand to hand, so they won't be (much) better at level 15 in combat. But, let's just take the concept of a character going to work every day, then after going to martial arts class. By your logic, after 30 years of training every day, the character won't have gotten any better ... AT ALL. Seriously, by your logic, the character studying martial arts for 30 years is just as likely to get his butt kicked by a student who walks into class the first day. In those "bad martial arts flick" you mention, those characters are (quite often) from a martial arts school, you know, where they go every day instead of adventuring. So, by your logic, they're not actually good at all. Now, will adventuring cause you to level faster? Yes. That tends to be your main hero in those movies. But that doesn't mean that no one else can learn anything ... EVER.

Prysus wrote:

barna10 wrote:Also, this goes against the rules for gaining skills where one can gain a skill by spending time in class (thereby by-passing the need to level-up to gain more skills).

Gain new skills, yes. Gain new experience, no. Learning new skills also requires a teacher (last I checked), something a hermit wouldn't have isolated as you suggested. Also, mystics avoid training in this way, and prefer to learn things naturally, so this would also make your analogy inappropriate. Though, for the record, to compare to your taking time to learn skills, Wizards (PF) and Ley Line Walkers (Rifts) and many other practitioners of magic can take time to learn a spell through training, and don't need to level. This is just not a path available to mystics, because they avoid traditional study. Farewell and safe journeys.[/justify]

Prysus wrote:Greetings and Salutations. I'm not denying meditating is appropriate for a Mystic, just that it's not comparable to going to class to learn a skill like you tried to claim.

As for meditating for six days, this is both true and untrue. While you focus on the six days, you seem to be ignoring the lines that comes before that.

RUE, page 119 (and similar in PF2): "The character spends years pondering about life, his place in it, and how magic might help him find that place in the world."

Hey, look at that, it mentions "years" before it goes into the six days. After years philosophical contemplation, they spend six days meditating to gain their new spells. However, if you're not learning anything new, you don't have much new to contemplate. To learn new spells the character must also reach "a new metaphysical plateau" and the book also tells us "at each new junction in life."

So the book tells us years, plus six days, new metaphysical plateau, and a new junction in life, and you seem to think that this is a daily thing? I can't say that follows the logic of the class (and any logic that says "years" equals "daily" is bad logic). If you at least add in something like it can only be done once after every 1D6+1 years, it might help follow the logic of the class (at least better than what you're currently trying to pass off). Farewell and safe journeys.[/justify]

Mark Hall wrote:I might let a mystic character spend skill selections to learn new spells.

I might, as a GM, also reward mystic characters with bonus spells... insights they have gained into the universe, relevant to certain things they have undergone... perhaps even having mystics quest for some kinds of magical knowledge, as Eelmore did to learn rune magic. Spells would be relatively simple; learning a new type of magic would be far more difficult.

say652 wrote:Because they have psionic and spells I see no reason to give them additional spells.

At that point, imo, it's loophole munch to up the power level of the character.
I call it loophole munch because I do it all the time.

Mark Hall wrote:I might let a mystic character spend skill selections to learn new spells.

I might, as a GM, also reward mystic characters with bonus spells... insights they have gained into the universe, relevant to certain things they have undergone... perhaps even having mystics quest for some kinds of magical knowledge, as Eelmore did to learn rune magic. Spells would be relatively simple; learning a new type of magic would be far more difficult.

say652 wrote:Give the character access to scrolls or techno wizard items. The occ already has spell selections. Why Add more.

eliakon wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:I might let a mystic character spend skill selections to learn new spells.

I might, as a GM, also reward mystic characters with bonus spells... insights they have gained into the universe, relevant to certain things they have undergone... perhaps even having mystics quest for some kinds of magical knowledge, as Eelmore did to learn rune magic. Spells would be relatively simple; learning a new type of magic would be far more difficult.

While I am still skeptical that Eelmore actually knew anything about rune magic and was just passing off an item he found I agree with the idea that if you find an insight you can upgrade.

When I GM Mystics I allow the player several options
1) I allow any spell from any school at all to be selected. Your hooked up to the universe and it knows all
2) I allow a skill selection to be traded for a spell or psionic power....or vice versa. Knowledge is knowledge.
3) I will grant 'you now know this' to players when appropriate. If the mystic has been hanging around doing a certain kind of thing and I feel that a certain bit of knowledge is useful, in character, makes sense, and wont break the game....presto free bonus spell, or psionic ability. I am especially fond of the Chaos Magic spells for this.

barna10 wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Getting wiser, and understanding yourself, nature and magic better is pretty much the definition of what gaining XP and leveling up entails. becoming a hermit dosn't mean you stop gaining XP or leveling up, you just do it at a somewhat slower pace than adventuring where you force yourself to learn through adversity.

This of course makes some sort of sense, but not game sense.

If this were true, all senior citizens would be high level characters, and last I checked supplements aren't peppered with 15th level dudes in walkers.

Also, this goes against the rules for gaining skills where one can gain a skill by spending time in class (thereby by-passing the need to level-up to gain more skills).

In addition, what XP would the Hermit gain, by RAW? The playing in character bonus? What time period would he gain this bonus for? Weekly? Monthly? If this is true, wouldn't ALL characters and NPCs receive the same bonus? And further, wouldn't this mean that a dutiful worker that simply went to work everyday for 30 years would be a high level character able to kick-butt and take names? This would mean that EVERY retiree was some bad-mama-jama like in some bad martial arts flick.

Sorry, this doesn't make game sense.

It screams for a rule that covers gaining skills, improving skills, and gaining spells outside of the leveling mechanic. I wouldn't increase casting level, power level, etc., but I would allow one to get more knowledgeable or better at skills simply by meditating or practice. What makes one "level up" is the trials and tribulations, the tests. Levels are the result of being tossed into the forge of life, not simply going through the motions for 50 years. Yes, one could argue a difference in the case of the hermit, but that would be an isolated type of case, and the hermit should still be able to gain enlightenment without having to meditate for a decade to get one spell.

Mark Hall wrote:FWIW, on the leveling issue, I tend to assume that, unless you are heavily involved in high-risk stuff, your level is probably about equal to your age in decades... so level 1 until you're about 20, level 2 until you're 30, level 3 until you're 40, etc. It's not a perfect system, it ignores adventurers and any mover and shaker (i.e. Lord Itomas doesn't need a history of adventure, since he's constantly involved in high-end political deals that tax his skills), and runs into problems with non-humans and their longer lives (a 500 year old elf isn't assumed to be 50th level), but it's a rule of thumb for humans.

barna10 wrote:Have you ever seen a mechanic, or worked one up yourself, for Mystics to gain more spells than the ones they gain per level?

This is the scenario I am specifically addressing, what about Mystics that don't level up? Say one becomes a hermit and communes with nature on the top of a mountain for 50 years. He wouldn't gain experience, but he would most likely get wiser and should understand himself, nature, and magic better. Why shouldn't this guy gain more spells during his 50 years?

IMO opinion there needs to be some way for Mystics to acquire spells that doesn't require them to level up.

[EDIT] Hmmm, looking at Born Mystic, "When he is ready to find or make his place by exploring it as an adventurer, the character enters into a meditative trance that lasts six days. At the end of that period, the character intuitively knows how to cast seven specific spells"

Mystic in RUE, "Then, when he is ready to find or make his place in the world. the Mystic enters into six days of meditation. At the end of the sixth day, he somehow knows how to cast eight specific spells."

Then when leveling up, they only gain 2 spells, but maybe this is because they aren't taking the needed time-out to gain more? (Hypothesizing, not asking)

I guess it comes to why can't they simply spend another 6 days and get more spells?

ShadowLogan wrote:

barna10 wrote:Have you ever seen a mechanic, or worked one up yourself, for Mystics to gain more spells than the ones they gain per level?

This is the scenario I am specifically addressing, what about Mystics that don't level up? Say one becomes a hermit and communes with nature on the top of a mountain for 50 years. He wouldn't gain experience, but he would most likely get wiser and should understand himself, nature, and magic better. Why shouldn't this guy gain more spells during his 50 years?

IMO opinion there needs to be some way for Mystics to acquire spells that doesn't require them to level up.

[EDIT] Hmmm, looking at Born Mystic, "When he is ready to find or make his place by exploring it as an adventurer, the character enters into a meditative trance that lasts six days. At the end of that period, the character intuitively knows how to cast seven specific spells"

Mystic in RUE, "Then, when he is ready to find or make his place in the world. the Mystic enters into six days of meditation. At the end of the sixth day, he somehow knows how to cast eight specific spells."

Then when leveling up, they only gain 2 spells, but maybe this is because they aren't taking the needed time-out to gain more? (Hypothesizing, not asking)

I guess it comes to why can't they simply spend another 6 days and get more spells?

In the 1E Robotech books they had rules for bringing characters from earlier periods (Macross and Southern Cross) forward to the Invid Invasion Era. While it did not increase their level, it did grant them new skills. This would have to be adapted to cover the full range of abilities not present in that setting (like magic/psionics) if you want a low level character, but one who has developed as a result of the long road of time.

For example in adapting the rules, I would look to see how many skills are gained by RT and how many levels it would take for the Mystic in question to acquire those skills as levelling to determine how many "extra" spell/powers might have developed. Or could trade those bonus skills for spell/power.

As to why a mytic can't just medidate longer to get more spells/powers, it might come down to what they experience/know and after the set period begin to go around in circles to the point they can't gain anything more out of it without sufficient experience to alter the cycle IMHO.

Mouser13 wrote:Well their is one source I can think on this. Isn't their a rune dagger that a person is bound/granted immorality in one of the books that is level 80 because of the century boned to the even though it been in the bottom of a treasure hoard.

Common if a person can get xp and levels without a body? Why not a person living off the land and studying nature?

Mouser13 wrote:Well their is one source I can think on this. Isn't their a rune dagger that a person is bound/granted immorality in one of the books that is level 80 because of the century boned to the even though it been in the bottom of a treasure hoard.

Common if a person can get xp and levels without a body? Why not a person living off the land and studying nature?

eliakon wrote:The NPC in question is one of two (same adventure, but they changed the NPC in the reboot)
In 1st ed Adventures in the Northern Wilderness pg 23 there is Ripley who has spent 600+ years in the forast and is level 150
In 2nd ed Wolfen Empire on page 107 he is referred to only by his Wolfen name of Kchalkch, has been in the forest for 2000+ years and is level 250.

Both of whom show that yes, under the rules if you hang around and meditate long enough you will go up in level.

Axelmania wrote:We sure meditating is all he does? I would think solo forest survival is very challenging and a good way to rack up XP by constantly using skills and defeating adversaries.

Axelmania wrote:We sure meditating is all he does? I would think solo forest survival is very challenging and a good way to rack up XP by constantly using skills and defeating adversaries.

barna10 wrote:Have you ever seen a mechanic, or worked one up yourself, for Mystics to gain more spells than the ones they gain per level?

This is the scenario I am specifically addressing, what about Mystics that don't level up? Say one becomes a hermit and communes with nature on the top of a mountain for 50 years. He wouldn't gain experience, but he would most likely get wiser and should understand himself, nature, and magic better. Why shouldn't this guy gain more spells during his 50 years?

IMO opinion there needs to be some way for Mystics to acquire spells that doesn't require them to level up.

[EDIT] Hmmm, looking at Born Mystic, "When he is ready to find or make his place by exploring it as an adventurer, the character enters into a meditative trance that lasts six days. At the end of that period, the character intuitively knows how to cast seven specific spells"

Mystic in RUE, "Then, when he is ready to find or make his place in the world. the Mystic enters into six days of meditation. At the end of the sixth day, he somehow knows how to cast eight specific spells."

Then when leveling up, they only gain 2 spells, but maybe this is because they aren't taking the needed time-out to gain more? (Hypothesizing, not asking)

I guess it comes to why can't they simply spend another 6 days and get more spells?

Mark Hall wrote:I might let a mystic character spend skill selections to learn new spells.

I might, as a GM, also reward mystic characters with bonus spells... insights they have gained into the universe, relevant to certain things they have undergone... perhaps even having mystics quest for some kinds of magical knowledge, as Eelmore did to learn rune magic. Spells would be relatively simple; learning a new type of magic would be far more difficult.

eliakon wrote:

Axelmania wrote:We sure meditating is all he does? I would think solo forest survival is very challenging and a good way to rack up XP by constantly using skills and defeating adversaries.

Quite sure.
He is physically incapable of doing anything and is stuck in a clearing unable to move (or die) until released (or not) by the PCs

Axelmania wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Axelmania wrote:We sure meditating is all he does? I would think solo forest survival is very challenging and a good way to rack up XP by constantly using skills and defeating adversaries.

Quite sure.
He is physically incapable of doing anything and is stuck in a clearing unable to move (or die) until released (or not) by the PCs

Is he capable of breathing? Maybe he gets XP for doing that because it's so hard for him? Or maybe he is getting XP for overcoming imaginary enemies in his dream pool?

Mark Hall wrote:Of course, depending on one's psychic powers, sitting around doing nothing physical for decades might not mean doing nothing... Clairvoyance, Astral Projection, and Commune with Spirits are all basic sensitive powers that could have you stationary yet highly engaged.

(I agree this is beside the point of "How can a mystic of X level have more spells than another mystic of X level", but it's fun enough to babble about).

Oh, hey, I could also see a Mystic with Commune With Spirits taking advantage of a Wizard's Cauldron... couldn't create it themselves, usually, but could maybe take advantage of one that hasn't been properly shut down. Or maybe a witch pact? I could see some of the monster races combining Psi-Mysticism with a witch pact.

Axelmania wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Axelmania wrote:We sure meditating is all he does? I would think solo forest survival is very challenging and a good way to rack up XP by constantly using skills and defeating adversaries.

Quite sure.
He is physically incapable of doing anything and is stuck in a clearing unable to move (or die) until released (or not) by the PCs

Is he capable of breathing? Maybe he gets XP for doing that because it's so hard for him? Or maybe he is getting XP for overcoming imaginary enemies in his dream pool?

eliakon wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:Of course, depending on one's psychic powers, sitting around doing nothing physical for decades might not mean doing nothing... Clairvoyance, Astral Projection, and Commune with Spirits are all basic sensitive powers that could have you stationary yet highly engaged.

(I agree this is beside the point of "How can a mystic of X level have more spells than another mystic of X level", but it's fun enough to babble about).

Oh, hey, I could also see a Mystic with Commune With Spirits taking advantage of a Wizard's Cauldron... couldn't create it themselves, usually, but could maybe take advantage of one that hasn't been properly shut down. Or maybe a witch pact? I could see some of the monster races combining Psi-Mysticism with a witch pact.

The last one is tricky. Psi-Mystic's cant be witches. A Mystic might be able to...depending on the witch rules being used. But Psi-Mystics explicitly can not change class.

A Wizard's Cauldron is also explicitly a class feature of the Wizard OCC. It works once to grant spells and only for the maker...then it can serve as a crystal ball. It can not be used by a second person to also gain spells with out a GM changing the rules via Rule Zero

A one off way to gain more spells is to use the Sorcerous Proficiencies from Nightbane. Assuming your GM allows them of course.

Mark Hall wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:Of course, depending on one's psychic powers, sitting around doing nothing physical for decades might not mean doing nothing... Clairvoyance, Astral Projection, and Commune with Spirits are all basic sensitive powers that could have you stationary yet highly engaged.

(I agree this is beside the point of "How can a mystic of X level have more spells than another mystic of X level", but it's fun enough to babble about).

Oh, hey, I could also see a Mystic with Commune With Spirits taking advantage of a Wizard's Cauldron... couldn't create it themselves, usually, but could maybe take advantage of one that hasn't been properly shut down. Or maybe a witch pact? I could see some of the monster races combining Psi-Mysticism with a witch pact.

The last one is tricky. Psi-Mystic's cant be witches. A Mystic might be able to...depending on the witch rules being used. But Psi-Mystics explicitly can not change class.

A Wizard's Cauldron is also explicitly a class feature of the Wizard OCC. It works once to grant spells and only for the maker...then it can serve as a crystal ball. It can not be used by a second person to also gain spells with out a GM changing the rules via Rule Zero

A one off way to gain more spells is to use the Sorcerous Proficiencies from Nightbane. Assuming your GM allows them of course.

A bit of a difference of opinion, here... I don't think one needs to be of the Witch class to accept a witch pact, nor does accepting a witch pact automatically change one to the Witch OCC. The Witch OCC represents someone who has basically nothing going on for them other than their witch abilities... without those abilities, they're pretty much Joe the Peasant. But a wizard or a summoner willing to sell their soul can still get a witch pact, if they like... and demons don't mind folks with a bit of power willing to become witches, because they're a lot more useful. Now, a wizard probably doesn't want the Gift of Magic... he'd rather have a Gift of Power. With bonus PPE to power the spells he knows, rather than some toy magic he doesn't even really learn.

eliakon wrote:If all he is doing is sitting there, unmoving thinking about stuff....then that is sort of the exact same as sitting there, unmoving thinking about stuff.

eliakon wrote:The last one is tricky. Psi-Mystic's cant be witches. A Mystic might be able to...depending on the witch rules being used. But Psi-Mystics explicitly can not change class.

barna10 wrote:

eliakon wrote:The last one is tricky. Psi-Mystic's cant be witches. A Mystic might be able to...depending on the witch rules being used. But Psi-Mystics explicitly can not change class.

Where is this stated, that Psi-Mystics can't change class?

Axelmania wrote:In 2nd edition each of the individual PCCs all have a note not allowing them to have multiple OCCs. I think the Noble also has a note about them being allowed. None of the other ones comment on it. In first edition I think most of the magic classes talked about the option, not sure if the men-at-arms did though.