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Hi everyone,

I can't find the price of silver bullets in Rifts anywhere... Is it even listed at some point?

Thanks for your help

Check Vampire Kingdoms. Pretty sure it's in there.

VK Revised has prices for silver plated and solid silver bullets.

Silver plated is generally a better idea as they are just as effective and much cheeper.

Pure silver should make a difference for some kinds of weapons. Like if we dealt with variant ammo (exploding, hollow point) where pieces would get lodged in a vampire, maybe impede their healing, more silver in the pieces should do better.

Axelmania wrote:Pure silver should make a difference for some kinds of weapons. Like if we dealt with variant ammo (exploding, hollow point) where pieces would get lodged in a vampire, maybe impede their healing, more silver in the pieces should do better.

as a side point silver because its harder than lead, can work as a "cheap" armor piercing round, not that the bullet itself is cheap (due to the cost of the silver) but due to the fact that it doesn't deform as easily.

guardiandashi wrote:as a side point silver because its harder than lead, can work as a "cheap" armor piercing round, not that the bullet itself is cheap (due to the cost of the silver) but due to the fact that it doesn't deform as easily.

Lol. 'Cept silver won't engage the rifle. Silver ammo is more then likely a powerball like round.

guardiandashi wrote:

Axelmania wrote:Pure silver should make a difference for some kinds of weapons. Like if we dealt with variant ammo (exploding, hollow point) where pieces would get lodged in a vampire, maybe impede their healing, more silver in the pieces should do better.

as a side point silver because its harder than lead, can work as a "cheap" armor piercing round, not that the bullet itself is cheap (due to the cost of the silver) but due to the fact that it doesn't deform as easily.

Nope, do your research modern rounds are copper jacketed the lead is mostly for cost reduction and mass. Coper has a hardness of 3 silver 2.5-3. AP rounds use a penetrator of tungsten which is 9. So a pure silver round would lack the mass of a coper coated lead and less hardness than an AP round. Even a copper coated lead bullet would match or out perform silver rounds.

Axelmania wrote:Pure silver should make a difference for some kinds of weapons. Like if we dealt with variant ammo (exploding, hollow point) where pieces would get lodged in a vampire, maybe impede their healing, more silver in the pieces should do better.

True, it dosn't have stats for variant silver ammo, and it should.

as for healing, is a silver shard from an exploding or HP round more likely to be lodged in the heart? (or much more likely). a silver bullet or shard lodged in the heart is the same as staking them (completely immobalized), but anything else and healing is uneffected, with their bodies expelling the silver within the melee round.

Axelmania wrote:Pure silver should make a difference for some kinds of weapons. Like if we dealt with variant ammo (exploding, hollow point) where pieces would get lodged in a vampire, maybe impede their healing, more silver in the pieces should do better.

You'd think that but having silvered BB-6 rounds versus regular .44 silver bullets against vampires seemingly has very little to do with the round itself.

Unfortunate Son wrote:

guardiandashi wrote:as a side point silver because its harder than lead, can work as a "cheap" armor piercing round, not that the bullet itself is cheap (due to the cost of the silver) but due to the fact that it doesn't deform as easily.

Lol. 'Cept silver won't engage the rifle. Silver ammo is more then likely a powerball like round.

Yes unless you use some kind of sabot type round which would be doable silver bullets range/accuracy would be pretty terrible.

I believe the price is just double normal price.

rat_bastard wrote:I believe the price is just double normal price.

Try several hundred times as much. they cost between 50-100 per bullet, compared to 15-50 per box of 100. demand and lack of ready supply have jacked the price of silver through the roof in rifts.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

rat_bastard wrote:I believe the price is just double normal price.

Try several hundred times as much. they cost between 50-100 per bullet, compared to 15-50 per box of 100. demand and lack of ready supply have jacked the price of silver through the roof in rifts.

Fun fact: silver is often only shipped during day-light hours due to the high number of vampire bandits trying to dry up reliable silver sources

kaid wrote:

Unfortunate Son wrote:

guardiandashi wrote:as a side point silver because its harder than lead, can work as a "cheap" armor piercing round, not that the bullet itself is cheap (due to the cost of the silver) but due to the fact that it doesn't deform as easily.

Lol. 'Cept silver won't engage the rifle. Silver ammo is more then likely a powerball like round.

Yes unless you use some kind of sabot type round which would be doable silver bullets range/accuracy would be pretty terrible.

actually according to people who have made silver bullets, they work just like lead bullets ballistically. (i attended a seminar on them at a gaming convention a few years back. whole thing on silver bullet myths and the realities of making and using them)

the real problem is in the casting.. silver shrinks different in moulds than lead does, so you have to use special moulds, and it took them a bit of trial and error to figure out exactly how much extra space needed to get the right size of projectile. you also have to cool silver a bit differently than lead, or the resulting projectiles can end up with deformities or cracks.

ballistically speaking the projectiles work pretty much like lead does. it engages the rifling no problem (as mentioned, it is no worse than the copper or steel bullet casings around modern projectiles)

the only real difference is that they deform differently on impact. the harder metal means less mushrooming. almost none at all against regular flesh.

you can read a fair bit about their testing of silver bullets here: http://www.patriciabriggs.com/articles/ ... lets.shtml

glitterboy2098 wrote:

kaid wrote:

Unfortunate Son wrote:

guardiandashi wrote:as a side point silver because its harder than lead, can work as a "cheap" armor piercing round, not that the bullet itself is cheap (due to the cost of the silver) but due to the fact that it doesn't deform as easily.

Lol. 'Cept silver won't engage the rifle. Silver ammo is more then likely a powerball like round.

Yes unless you use some kind of sabot type round which would be doable silver bullets range/accuracy would be pretty terrible.

actually according to people who have made silver bullets, they work just like lead bullets ballistically. (i attended a seminar on them at a gaming convention a few years back. whole thing on silver bullet myths and the realities of making and using them)

the real problem is in the casting.. silver shrinks different in moulds than lead does, so you have to use special moulds, and it took them a bit of trial and error to figure out exactly how much extra space needed to get the right size of projectile. you also have to cool silver a bit differently than lead, or the resulting projectiles can end up with deformities or cracks.

ballistically speaking the projectiles work pretty much like lead does. it engages the rifling no problem (as mentioned, it is no worse than the copper or steel bullet casings around modern projectiles)

the only real difference is that they deform differently on impact. the harder metal means less mushrooming. almost none at all against regular flesh.

you can read a fair bit about their testing of silver bullets here: http://www.patriciabriggs.com/articles/ ... lets.shtml

it was from reading one of her novels that was giving me the idea you could use silver as a kind of weak ap round. the fact that it doesn't mushroom well means that it is going to have a tendency to keep "punching through stuff" long after a lead bullet mushrooms out badly. the fact that it is somewhat less dense than lead ~1g/cm3 means its still pretty heavy source https://apps.facebook.com/dragonsriseof ... s_bookmark

And that's why I use silver glaser rounds.

If silver isn't available, Enchant Weapon: Minor can make 72 magic bullets per casting. I think magic bullets would be effective against most invulnerable monsters. Someone with their books might verify vampires and were-creatures for us.

glitterboy2098 wrote:you can read a fair bit about their testing of silver bullets here: http://www.patriciabriggs.com/articles/ ... lets.shtml

I am amused beyond belief that she and her husband researched/tested this and have an article on it. Nice find GB!


Daniel Stoker

Mythbusted!

As for price of silver rounds in game thats probably a GM call. It really depends heavily on the availability of silver and as silver is a precious metal on its own the price probably fluctuates a ton from location to location.

kaid wrote:Mythbusted!

As for price of silver rounds in game thats probably a GM call. It really depends heavily on the availability of silver and as silver is a precious metal on its own the price probably fluctuates a ton from location to location.

Price of silver rounds are listed in vampire kingdoms revised. any variance locally the GM might want to include is up to him, but that's always the case, isn't it?

On page 112 of the GMG. it's 150 credits for 48 small arms rounds.
In merc ops page 100 wellington is charging 150-600 credits depending on caliber.

It appears highly subjective based on demand and location.

rat_bastard wrote:On page 112 of the GMG. it's 150 credits for 48 small arms rounds.
In merc ops page 100 wellington is charging 150-600 credits depending on caliber.

It appears highly subjective based on demand and location.

As I understand it all prices are listed as a number but can be subjective RUE and Rifts role playing game both made reference to this that prices can fluctuate. So if silver becomes high demand (such as NG buying up all raw silver to corner the market and a demon war breaks out) the price goes up, or if there is no local source the price can go up. A GM is never required to charge the book rates for anything but can adjust them as he feels is right for the situation.

sounds like these are silver plated rounds then.. the vampire books establish that in the new west area silver goes for 1000cr an ounce. 48 bullets would be 2-3 ounces worth of bullets, so if they only cost 150-600cr, they have to be using quite little actual silver.

Honestly the price of silver bullets has been different in each book it has been printed in.
One issue is that each author has their own ideas of what is the 'right' logistical balance of cost/utility/power. So each book is written with those assumptions. This results in stuff that can be super cheap in one book if an author doesn't feel its important, to the same thing being unbelievably expensive in another book who's author thinks it is very potent.

eliakon wrote:Honestly the price of silver bullets has been different in each book it has been printed in.
One issue is that each author has their own ideas of what is the 'right' logistical balance of cost/utility/power. So each book is written with those assumptions. This results in stuff that can be super cheap in one book if an author doesn't feel its important, to the same thing being unbelievably expensive in another book who's author thinks it is very potent.

Although ironically that level of price differences especially where things like silver bullets are involved make a lot of sense. Most of the major silver deposits in the US I believe were from the south west which ironically is also the area with the biggest vampire problems. So the likely main producers also have high local demand for the resource. Still given the NG seems to be able to mass produce rail gun rounds plated in silver who knows hehe. That said I am guessing silver jewelry is probably frowned upon with silver going from a cosmetic luxury to a high utility material.

I feel bad for GMs who want anti-werebeast ammo since they'd need to get Vampire Kingdoms to know its costs. Seems like something good to note in Dark Conversions.

flatline wrote:If silver isn't available, Enchant Weapon: Minor can make 72 magic bullets per casting. I think magic bullets would be effective against most invulnerable monsters. Someone with their books might verify vampires and were-creatures for us.

Seems like a perfect werebeast counter. The only downside I can see with vampires is that one can't lodge in the heart (like silver... or wait is that just wood that can do this?) and keep them in stasis.

Of course the downside to this cheaper alternative (assuming there are mages out there mass-producing those for profit) aside from no long-term storage to mass the ammo (due to expiry) is the harassment it gets you around the CS for using enchanted gear.

Compared to the Enchant Weapon ritual... do you think Conjurers could simply conjure silver bullets temporarily?

Not sure if it would be necessary, their ammo might count as magic to begin with, but some things take double damage from silver but not from magical so it could still be useful.

flatline wrote:If silver isn't available, Enchant Weapon: Minor can make 72 magic bullets per casting. I think magic bullets would be effective against most invulnerable monsters. Someone with their books might verify vampires and were-creatures for us.

That spell is between .5-1 million credits and extremely rare, and the damage per round is extremely low (2d6), silver bullets are cheaper, more effective and vastly more common.

rat_bastard wrote:

flatline wrote:If silver isn't available, Enchant Weapon: Minor can make 72 magic bullets per casting. I think magic bullets would be effective against most invulnerable monsters. Someone with their books might verify vampires and were-creatures for us.

That spell is between .5-1 million credits and extremely rare, and the damage per round is extremely low (2d6), silver bullets are cheaper, more effective and vastly more common.

I would say that a million credits for a 15th level spell is vastly underestimating the price....
and while you can make 72 bullets....you can only do it once every three months.
So we have a temporarily enchanted item (it lasts 1 month/level of caster) that does less damage, can be made in batches every three months, costs 400ppe to make, and requires a 15th level spell.....

I am hard pressed to think of any but the most specialized of situations in which this would be preferable to just getting some silver bullets.

eliakon wrote:

rat_bastard wrote:

flatline wrote:If silver isn't available, Enchant Weapon: Minor can make 72 magic bullets per casting. I think magic bullets would be effective against most invulnerable monsters. Someone with their books might verify vampires and were-creatures for us.

That spell is between .5-1 million credits and extremely rare, and the damage per round is extremely low (2d6), silver bullets are cheaper, more effective and vastly more common.

I would say that a million credits for a 15th level spell is vastly underestimating the price....
and while you can make 72 bullets....you can only do it once every three months.
So we have a temporarily enchanted item (it lasts 1 month/level of caster) that does less damage, can be made in batches every three months, costs 400ppe to make, and requires a 15th level spell.....

I am hard pressed to think of any but the most specialized of situations in which this would be preferable to just getting some silver bullets.

500,000-1 million is the baseline price. 1 million is already on the upper end for a level 15 spell. sure the GM CAN say it's higher locally, but the average is still no more than a million.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

eliakon wrote:

rat_bastard wrote:

flatline wrote:If silver isn't available, Enchant Weapon: Minor can make 72 magic bullets per casting. I think magic bullets would be effective against most invulnerable monsters. Someone with their books might verify vampires and were-creatures for us.

That spell is between .5-1 million credits and extremely rare, and the damage per round is extremely low (2d6), silver bullets are cheaper, more effective and vastly more common.

I would say that a million credits for a 15th level spell is vastly underestimating the price....
and while you can make 72 bullets....you can only do it once every three months.
So we have a temporarily enchanted item (it lasts 1 month/level of caster) that does less damage, can be made in batches every three months, costs 400ppe to make, and requires a 15th level spell.....

I am hard pressed to think of any but the most specialized of situations in which this would be preferable to just getting some silver bullets.

500,000-1 million is the baseline price. 1 million is already on the upper end for a level 15 spell. sure the GM CAN say it's higher locally, but the average is still no more than a million.

Assuming that one is willing to believe that there should be no difference between a level 10 spell and a level 15 one. (and don't forget to add the 10% mark up for being offensive). I see no reason why spells should not suffer from the same price issues as weapons. This isn't Final Fantasy where everything but the legendary Ultima spell is for sale in the right shop (airship and all side quests not withstanding)
And assuming you can even find someone to sell it in the first place.

eliakon wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

eliakon wrote:

rat_bastard wrote:

flatline wrote:If silver isn't available, Enchant Weapon: Minor can make 72 magic bullets per casting. I think magic bullets would be effective against most invulnerable monsters. Someone with their books might verify vampires and were-creatures for us.

That spell is between .5-1 million credits and extremely rare, and the damage per round is extremely low (2d6), silver bullets are cheaper, more effective and vastly more common.

I would say that a million credits for a 15th level spell is vastly underestimating the price....
and while you can make 72 bullets....you can only do it once every three months.
So we have a temporarily enchanted item (it lasts 1 month/level of caster) that does less damage, can be made in batches every three months, costs 400ppe to make, and requires a 15th level spell.....

I am hard pressed to think of any but the most specialized of situations in which this would be preferable to just getting some silver bullets.

500,000-1 million is the baseline price. 1 million is already on the upper end for a level 15 spell. sure the GM CAN say it's higher locally, but the average is still no more than a million.

Assuming that one is willing to believe that there should be no difference between a level 10 spell and a level 15 one. (and don't forget to add the 10% mark up for being offensive). I see no reason why spells should not suffer from the same price issues as weapons. This isn't Final Fantasy where everything but the legendary Ultima spell is for sale in the right shop (airship and all side quests not withstanding)
And assuming you can even find someone to sell it in the first place.

Why would finding someone wanting to sell them be so hard? Glitter Boys are more rare and arguably more powerful than most level 15 spells, but I havn't heard anyone argue that people simply refuse to sell them. There will always be some black marketeer who knows a guy who knows a guy who can get it to you for a reasonable markup. the same logic applys to high level magic.

Except not even then, as there are established, large mage guilds and universities that will teach magic for the listed prices. Magic is not some rare hoarded thing in Rifts. it's a commodity, bought, sold, and traded amoung practioners on a megaversal scale. So what if no one in X community knows the spell, or wants to sell it if they do. They probablly know someone more open (or at least more mercenary), and if all else fails, the big, major magic using communities (Lazlo, City of Brass, Kingsdale, Dweomer, Tolkeen if the game is set before the fall) should be assumed to have them available as a matter of course. and if all else fails Atlantis will sell anything for the right price.

The game assumes a market for spells exist, and puts many organizations in cannon that sell and teach spells as their primary means of income. This means that we can assume there are professional spell-teachers who are looking to teach people for the right price. You can argue that the cannon price is too low--that's a sepearte matter entirely. but the game makes very clear in a lot of books that magic is for sale, assuming you are willing to pay the price. the Market will eventually clear--meaning anyone wanting to buy a level 15 spell can do so, if they are willing to pay the market price.

Also...what price issues with weapons are you talking about?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

eliakon wrote:

rat_bastard wrote:That spell is between .5-1 million credits and extremely rare, and the damage per round is extremely low (2d6), silver bullets are cheaper, more effective and vastly more common.

I would say that a million credits for a 15th level spell is vastly underestimating the price....
and while you can make 72 bullets....you can only do it once every three months.
So we have a temporarily enchanted item (it lasts 1 month/level of caster) that does less damage, can be made in batches every three months, costs 400ppe to make, and requires a 15th level spell.....

I am hard pressed to think of any but the most specialized of situations in which this would be preferable to just getting some silver bullets.

500,000-1 million is the baseline price. 1 million is already on the upper end for a level 15 spell. sure the GM CAN say it's higher locally, but the average is still no more than a million.

Assuming that one is willing to believe that there should be no difference between a level 10 spell and a level 15 one. (and don't forget to add the 10% mark up for being offensive). I see no reason why spells should not suffer from the same price issues as weapons. This isn't Final Fantasy where everything but the legendary Ultima spell is for sale in the right shop (airship and all side quests not withstanding)
And assuming you can even find someone to sell it in the first place.

Why would finding someone wanting to sell them be so hard? Glitter Boys are more rare and arguably more powerful than most level 15 spells, but I havn't heard anyone argue that people simply refuse to sell them. There will always be some black marketeer who knows a guy who knows a guy who can get it to you for a reasonable markup. the same logic applys to high level magic.

Except not even then, as there are established, large mage guilds and universities that will teach magic for the listed prices. Magic is not some rare hoarded thing in Rifts. it's a commodity, bought, sold, and traded amoung practioners on a megaversal scale. So what if no one in X community knows the spell, or wants to sell it if they do. They probablly know someone more open (or at least more mercenary), and if all else fails, the big, major magic using communities (Lazlo, City of Brass, Kingsdale, Dweomer, Tolkeen if the game is set before the fall) should be assumed to have them available as a matter of course. and if all else fails Atlantis will sell anything for the right price.

The game assumes a market for spells exist, and puts many organizations in cannon that sell and teach spells as their primary means of income. This means that we can assume there are professional spell-teachers who are looking to teach people for the right price. You can argue that the cannon price is too low--that's a sepearte matter entirely. but the game makes very clear in a lot of books that magic is for sale, assuming you are willing to pay the price. the Market will eventually clear--meaning anyone wanting to buy a level 15 spell can do so, if they are willing to pay the market price.

Also...what price issues with weapons are you talking about?

I think we may have different views on how the setting works then.
When I read the section saying that "rarely available for sale 10% chance" it means to me that it is rare. Yes it may be sold, if your lucky, and if you meet the approval of the seller. I would also point out that Atlantis doesn't sell to humans, though they will sell humans and even then everything is not available Splynn Dimensional Market is pretty explicit on making the point that no you can't just say "I go and buy it just because". Even they may not have what you want....or be willing to sell it to you.

And I also am of the opinion you can't just go down and buy a Glitter Boy either (unless your the NGR or FQ or the like)

There is a discussion in the GMG page 109-111 about weapons availability. In short....it explains that just because there is a nominal price tag next to something doesn't mean that everything is available just because the PCs want it. Nor that they should expect to be able to buy it for that much money, if with cash at all.

By the books magic up to level X is available but mages are not willing to normally share high level spells without some really good reason. Most likly with the nature of magic they either see high level magic as something that has to be earned or that it should be protected to prevent abuse. The teaching style would also be selective and lead to hoarding. Hoarding knowledge is hard concept for people to understand for people in our information age. We make knowledge available easily but that is our culture and is only possible do to the internet.

eliakon wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
500,000-1 million is the baseline price. 1 million is already on the upper end for a level 15 spell. sure the GM CAN say it's higher locally, but the average is still no more than a million.

Assuming that one is willing to believe that there should be no difference between a level 10 spell and a level 15 one. (and don't forget to add the 10% mark up for being offensive). I see no reason why spells should not suffer from the same price issues as weapons. This isn't Final Fantasy where everything but the legendary Ultima spell is for sale in the right shop (airship and all side quests not withstanding)
And assuming you can even find someone to sell it in the first place.

Why would finding someone wanting to sell them be so hard? Glitter Boys are more rare and arguably more powerful than most level 15 spells, but I havn't heard anyone argue that people simply refuse to sell them. There will always be some black marketeer who knows a guy who knows a guy who can get it to you for a reasonable markup. the same logic applys to high level magic.

Except not even then, as there are established, large mage guilds and universities that will teach magic for the listed prices. Magic is not some rare hoarded thing in Rifts. it's a commodity, bought, sold, and traded amoung practioners on a megaversal scale. So what if no one in X community knows the spell, or wants to sell it if they do. They probablly know someone more open (or at least more mercenary), and if all else fails, the big, major magic using communities (Lazlo, City of Brass, Kingsdale, Dweomer, Tolkeen if the game is set before the fall) should be assumed to have them available as a matter of course. and if all else fails Atlantis will sell anything for the right price.

The game assumes a market for spells exist, and puts many organizations in cannon that sell and teach spells as their primary means of income. This means that we can assume there are professional spell-teachers who are looking to teach people for the right price. You can argue that the cannon price is too low--that's a sepearte matter entirely. but the game makes very clear in a lot of books that magic is for sale, assuming you are willing to pay the price. the Market will eventually clear--meaning anyone wanting to buy a level 15 spell can do so, if they are willing to pay the market price.

Also...what price issues with weapons are you talking about?

I think we may have different views on how the setting works then.
When I read the section saying that "rarely available for sale 10% chance" it means to me that it is rare. Yes it may be sold, if your lucky, and if you meet the approval of the seller. I would also point out that Atlantis doesn't sell to humans, though they will sell humans and even then everything is not available Splynn Dimensional Market is pretty explicit on making the point that no you can't just say "I go and buy it just because". Even they may not have what you want....or be willing to sell it to you.

And I also am of the opinion you can't just go down and buy a Glitter Boy either (unless your the NGR or FQ or the like)

There is a discussion in the GMG page 109-111 about weapons availability. In short....it explains that just because there is a nominal price tag next to something doesn't mean that everything is available just because the PCs want it. Nor that they should expect to be able to buy it for that much money, if with cash at all.

Actually it dosn't say that atlantis won't sell to humans, it says they are discriminated against and treated like second class citizens at best and slaves at worst. you can still wind up finding a seller, you just have to find merchants willing to sell to humans.

as for that GMG entry, yea, that's true, but that dosn't really address my point. It's in reference how different markets exist within Rifts Earth--you can't find, say, Armatech weapons easially or likely at all in the burbs because The Republic of Japan and Coalition states have no idea that each-other even exist, let alone have trade. Or you are more likely to find Triax goods in the NGR but not every gun shop in NA will have them, ect.

What i'm trying to say is "It's a big world with megaversal connetions, and a player can find a seller if they are willing to travel to where there is a market with people willing to sell. The GMG section mentions not having guns from south america readially available elsewhere. But if you travel TO south america, then they will be.

I'm saying that generally not much keeps players from going out of their way to find a market for a special purchase. For example, if the party mage wants to learn that spell, they can go make a special trip just to try to find someplace in the federation of magic where they can buy it--Every high magus knows it, one of them is going to be willing to teach for the right price. And that's just one possibility off the top of my head, and hardly the only place on earth where it could be learned.

You seem to be operating under the assumption that PC's are relatively stationary and might not find what they're looking for in their area. I'm saying PC's can go anywhere they want to go if they have the means to do so. If a party mage wants a high level spell, he can go looking for seller. The famous magic using cities are pretty well known, ONE of them has to have it available. just hop around the federation of magic you'll get lucky eventually. Or you'll get enslaved and/or killed--that's kind of risk you run traveling in Rifts Earth

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
500,000-1 million is the baseline price. 1 million is already on the upper end for a level 15 spell. sure the GM CAN say it's higher locally, but the average is still no more than a million.

Assuming that one is willing to believe that there should be no difference between a level 10 spell and a level 15 one. (and don't forget to add the 10% mark up for being offensive). I see no reason why spells should not suffer from the same price issues as weapons. This isn't Final Fantasy where everything but the legendary Ultima spell is for sale in the right shop (airship and all side quests not withstanding)
And assuming you can even find someone to sell it in the first place.

Why would finding someone wanting to sell them be so hard? Glitter Boys are more rare and arguably more powerful than most level 15 spells, but I havn't heard anyone argue that people simply refuse to sell them. There will always be some black marketeer who knows a guy who knows a guy who can get it to you for a reasonable markup. the same logic applys to high level magic.

Except not even then, as there are established, large mage guilds and universities that will teach magic for the listed prices. Magic is not some rare hoarded thing in Rifts. it's a commodity, bought, sold, and traded amoung practioners on a megaversal scale. So what if no one in X community knows the spell, or wants to sell it if they do. They probablly know someone more open (or at least more mercenary), and if all else fails, the big, major magic using communities (Lazlo, City of Brass, Kingsdale, Dweomer, Tolkeen if the game is set before the fall) should be assumed to have them available as a matter of course. and if all else fails Atlantis will sell anything for the right price.

The game assumes a market for spells exist, and puts many organizations in cannon that sell and teach spells as their primary means of income. This means that we can assume there are professional spell-teachers who are looking to teach people for the right price. You can argue that the cannon price is too low--that's a sepearte matter entirely. but the game makes very clear in a lot of books that magic is for sale, assuming you are willing to pay the price. the Market will eventually clear--meaning anyone wanting to buy a level 15 spell can do so, if they are willing to pay the market price.

Also...what price issues with weapons are you talking about?

I think we may have different views on how the setting works then.
When I read the section saying that "rarely available for sale 10% chance" it means to me that it is rare. Yes it may be sold, if your lucky, and if you meet the approval of the seller. I would also point out that Atlantis doesn't sell to humans, though they will sell humans and even then everything is not available Splynn Dimensional Market is pretty explicit on making the point that no you can't just say "I go and buy it just because". Even they may not have what you want....or be willing to sell it to you.

And I also am of the opinion you can't just go down and buy a Glitter Boy either (unless your the NGR or FQ or the like)

There is a discussion in the GMG page 109-111 about weapons availability. In short....it explains that just because there is a nominal price tag next to something doesn't mean that everything is available just because the PCs want it. Nor that they should expect to be able to buy it for that much money, if with cash at all.

Actually it dosn't say that atlantis won't sell to humans, it says they are discriminated against and treated like second class citizens at best and slaves at worst. you can still wind up finding a seller, you just have to find merchants willing to sell to humans.

as for that GMG entry, yea, that's true, but that dosn't really address my point. It's in reference how different markets exist within Rifts Earth--you can't find, say, Armatech weapons easially or likely at all in the burbs because The Republic of Japan and Coalition states have no idea that each-other even exist, let alone have trade. Or you are more likely to find Triax goods in the NGR but not every gun shop in NA will have them, ect.

What i'm trying to say is "It's a big world with megaversal connetions, and a player can find a seller if they are willing to travel to where there is a market with people willing to sell. The GMG section mentions not having guns from south america readially available elsewhere. But if you travel TO south america, then they will be.

I'm saying that generally not much keeps players from going out of their way to find a market for a special purchase. For example, if the party mage wants to learn that spell, they can go make a special trip just to try to find someplace in the federation of magic where they can buy it--Every high magus knows it, one of them is going to be willing to teach for the right price. And that's just one possibility off the top of my head, and hardly the only place on earth where it could be learned.

You seem to be operating under the assumption that PC's are relatively stationary and might not find what they're looking for in their area. I'm saying PC's can go anywhere they want to go if they have the means to do so. If a party mage wants a high level spell, he can go looking for seller. The famous magic using cities are pretty well known, ONE of them has to have it available. just hop around the federation of magic you'll get lucky eventually. Or you'll get enslaved and/or killed--that's kind of risk you run traveling in Rifts Earth

Every high magus may know it but by the books high level spells are hard to get a teacher for. it says so in the book about learning magic. If there is no known seller and you have to search for some hidden city and hope some one will break the taboo, in a monster filled world you would be more likely to die than find some one to teach you the spell.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
500,000-1 million is the baseline price. 1 million is already on the upper end for a level 15 spell. sure the GM CAN say it's higher locally, but the average is still no more than a million.

Assuming that one is willing to believe that there should be no difference between a level 10 spell and a level 15 one. (and don't forget to add the 10% mark up for being offensive). I see no reason why spells should not suffer from the same price issues as weapons. This isn't Final Fantasy where everything but the legendary Ultima spell is for sale in the right shop (airship and all side quests not withstanding)
And assuming you can even find someone to sell it in the first place.

Why would finding someone wanting to sell them be so hard? Glitter Boys are more rare and arguably more powerful than most level 15 spells, but I havn't heard anyone argue that people simply refuse to sell them. There will always be some black marketeer who knows a guy who knows a guy who can get it to you for a reasonable markup. the same logic applys to high level magic.

Except not even then, as there are established, large mage guilds and universities that will teach magic for the listed prices. Magic is not some rare hoarded thing in Rifts. it's a commodity, bought, sold, and traded amoung practioners on a megaversal scale. So what if no one in X community knows the spell, or wants to sell it if they do. They probablly know someone more open (or at least more mercenary), and if all else fails, the big, major magic using communities (Lazlo, City of Brass, Kingsdale, Dweomer, Tolkeen if the game is set before the fall) should be assumed to have them available as a matter of course. and if all else fails Atlantis will sell anything for the right price.

The game assumes a market for spells exist, and puts many organizations in cannon that sell and teach spells as their primary means of income. This means that we can assume there are professional spell-teachers who are looking to teach people for the right price. You can argue that the cannon price is too low--that's a sepearte matter entirely. but the game makes very clear in a lot of books that magic is for sale, assuming you are willing to pay the price. the Market will eventually clear--meaning anyone wanting to buy a level 15 spell can do so, if they are willing to pay the market price.

Also...what price issues with weapons are you talking about?

I think we may have different views on how the setting works then.
When I read the section saying that "rarely available for sale 10% chance" it means to me that it is rare. Yes it may be sold, if your lucky, and if you meet the approval of the seller. I would also point out that Atlantis doesn't sell to humans, though they will sell humans and even then everything is not available Splynn Dimensional Market is pretty explicit on making the point that no you can't just say "I go and buy it just because". Even they may not have what you want....or be willing to sell it to you.

And I also am of the opinion you can't just go down and buy a Glitter Boy either (unless your the NGR or FQ or the like)

There is a discussion in the GMG page 109-111 about weapons availability. In short....it explains that just because there is a nominal price tag next to something doesn't mean that everything is available just because the PCs want it. Nor that they should expect to be able to buy it for that much money, if with cash at all.

Actually it dosn't say that atlantis won't sell to humans, it says they are discriminated against and treated like second class citizens at best and slaves at worst. you can still wind up finding a seller, you just have to find merchants willing to sell to humans.

as for that GMG entry, yea, that's true, but that dosn't really address my point. It's in reference how different markets exist within Rifts Earth--you can't find, say, Armatech weapons easially or likely at all in the burbs because The Republic of Japan and Coalition states have no idea that each-other even exist, let alone have trade. Or you are more likely to find Triax goods in the NGR but not every gun shop in NA will have them, ect.

What i'm trying to say is "It's a big world with megaversal connetions, and a player can find a seller if they are willing to travel to where there is a market with people willing to sell. The GMG section mentions not having guns from south america readially available elsewhere. But if you travel TO south america, then they will be.

I'm saying that generally not much keeps players from going out of their way to find a market for a special purchase. For example, if the party mage wants to learn that spell, they can go make a special trip just to try to find someplace in the federation of magic where they can buy it--Every high magus knows it, one of them is going to be willing to teach for the right price. And that's just one possibility off the top of my head, and hardly the only place on earth where it could be learned.

You seem to be operating under the assumption that PC's are relatively stationary and might not find what they're looking for in their area. I'm saying PC's can go anywhere they want to go if they have the means to do so. If a party mage wants a high level spell, he can go looking for seller. The famous magic using cities are pretty well known, ONE of them has to have it available. just hop around the federation of magic you'll get lucky eventually. Or you'll get enslaved and/or killed--that's kind of risk you run traveling in Rifts Earth

So if we are now wandering around Rifts Earth seeking out every mythical place to find people who may or may not exist (PCs don't have rule books to consult after all) to find someone that will eventually teach them a spell for 550,000+cr.....
How exactly is this easier than just buying some silver bullets?
I mean seriously....I can think of absolutely ZERO ways in which a group could quest to find a spell teacher....but NOT find any silver.

And with the High Magus example....
...."for the right price" is not the same as "book says 550,000 cr"....
That sounds a lot more like my "what the market will bear"

Let's get back on topic.

Blue_Lion wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Actually it dosn't say that atlantis won't sell to humans, it says they are discriminated against and treated like second class citizens at best and slaves at worst. you can still wind up finding a seller, you just have to find merchants willing to sell to humans.

as for that GMG entry, yea, that's true, but that dosn't really address my point. It's in reference how different markets exist within Rifts Earth--you can't find, say, Armatech weapons easially or likely at all in the burbs because The Republic of Japan and Coalition states have no idea that each-other even exist, let alone have trade. Or you are more likely to find Triax goods in the NGR but not every gun shop in NA will have them, ect.

What i'm trying to say is "It's a big world with megaversal connetions, and a player can find a seller if they are willing to travel to where there is a market with people willing to sell. The GMG section mentions not having guns from south america readially available elsewhere. But if you travel TO south america, then they will be.

I'm saying that generally not much keeps players from going out of their way to find a market for a special purchase. For example, if the party mage wants to learn that spell, they can go make a special trip just to try to find someplace in the federation of magic where they can buy it--Every high magus knows it, one of them is going to be willing to teach for the right price. And that's just one possibility off the top of my head, and hardly the only place on earth where it could be learned.

You seem to be operating under the assumption that PC's are relatively stationary and might not find what they're looking for in their area. I'm saying PC's can go anywhere they want to go if they have the means to do so. If a party mage wants a high level spell, he can go looking for seller. The famous magic using cities are pretty well known, ONE of them has to have it available. just hop around the federation of magic you'll get lucky eventually. Or you'll get enslaved and/or killed--that's kind of risk you run traveling in Rifts Earth

Every high magus may know it but by the books high level spells are hard to get a teacher for. it says so in the book about learning magic. If there is no known seller and you have to search for some hidden city and hope some one will break the taboo, in a monster filled world you would be more likely to die than find some one to teach you the spell.

I'm not sure how that's incompatible with anything I said. I said if you find the market, you can buy it. finding the market is your own problem.

eliakon wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:So if we are now wandering around Rifts Earth seeking out every mythical place to find people who may or may not exist (PCs don't have rule books to consult after all) to find someone that will eventually teach them a spell for 550,000+cr.....
How exactly is this easier than just buying some silver bullets?
I mean seriously....I can think of absolutely ZERO ways in which a group could quest to find a spell teacher....but NOT find any silver.

Oh, I never said it'd be easier than finding silver bullets, I was going off on a tangent

And with the High Magus example....
...."for the right price" is not the same as "book says 550,000 cr"....
That sounds a lot more like my "what the market will bear"

The book tells us what the generally accepted "what the market will bear" price is. That's the entire point of having a listed price guide is it not? "This is the standard, prices may vary 50%-200% by location". but the existance of places where it is locally more or less expensive dosn't negate the average. that's what having an average price means. Your argument appears to be "outliers exist, therefore the book price is wrong". i'm saying "outliers exist, but by definition will be uncommon."

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Actually it dosn't say that atlantis won't sell to humans, it says they are discriminated against and treated like second class citizens at best and slaves at worst. you can still wind up finding a seller, you just have to find merchants willing to sell to humans.

as for that GMG entry, yea, that's true, but that dosn't really address my point. It's in reference how different markets exist within Rifts Earth--you can't find, say, Armatech weapons easially or likely at all in the burbs because The Republic of Japan and Coalition states have no idea that each-other even exist, let alone have trade. Or you are more likely to find Triax goods in the NGR but not every gun shop in NA will have them, ect.

What i'm trying to say is "It's a big world with megaversal connetions, and a player can find a seller if they are willing to travel to where there is a market with people willing to sell. The GMG section mentions not having guns from south america readially available elsewhere. But if you travel TO south america, then they will be.

I'm saying that generally not much keeps players from going out of their way to find a market for a special purchase. For example, if the party mage wants to learn that spell, they can go make a special trip just to try to find someplace in the federation of magic where they can buy it--Every high magus knows it, one of them is going to be willing to teach for the right price. And that's just one possibility off the top of my head, and hardly the only place on earth where it could be learned.

You seem to be operating under the assumption that PC's are relatively stationary and might not find what they're looking for in their area. I'm saying PC's can go anywhere they want to go if they have the means to do so. If a party mage wants a high level spell, he can go looking for seller. The famous magic using cities are pretty well known, ONE of them has to have it available. just hop around the federation of magic you'll get lucky eventually. Or you'll get enslaved and/or killed--that's kind of risk you run traveling in Rifts Earth

Every high magus may know it but by the books high level spells are hard to get a teacher for. it says so in the book about learning magic. If there is no known seller and you have to search for some hidden city and hope some one will break the taboo, in a monster filled world you would be more likely to die than find some one to teach you the spell.

I'm not sure how that's incompatible with anything I said. I said if you find the market, you can buy it. finding the market is your own problem.

Some things like high level spells do not have a market.

Blue_Lion wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Actually it dosn't say that atlantis won't sell to humans, it says they are discriminated against and treated like second class citizens at best and slaves at worst. you can still wind up finding a seller, you just have to find merchants willing to sell to humans.

as for that GMG entry, yea, that's true, but that dosn't really address my point. It's in reference how different markets exist within Rifts Earth--you can't find, say, Armatech weapons easially or likely at all in the burbs because The Republic of Japan and Coalition states have no idea that each-other even exist, let alone have trade. Or you are more likely to find Triax goods in the NGR but not every gun shop in NA will have them, ect.

What i'm trying to say is "It's a big world with megaversal connetions, and a player can find a seller if they are willing to travel to where there is a market with people willing to sell. The GMG section mentions not having guns from south america readially available elsewhere. But if you travel TO south america, then they will be.

I'm saying that generally not much keeps players from going out of their way to find a market for a special purchase. For example, if the party mage wants to learn that spell, they can go make a special trip just to try to find someplace in the federation of magic where they can buy it--Every high magus knows it, one of them is going to be willing to teach for the right price. And that's just one possibility off the top of my head, and hardly the only place on earth where it could be learned.

You seem to be operating under the assumption that PC's are relatively stationary and might not find what they're looking for in their area. I'm saying PC's can go anywhere they want to go if they have the means to do so. If a party mage wants a high level spell, he can go looking for seller. The famous magic using cities are pretty well known, ONE of them has to have it available. just hop around the federation of magic you'll get lucky eventually. Or you'll get enslaved and/or killed--that's kind of risk you run traveling in Rifts Earth

Every high magus may know it but by the books high level spells are hard to get a teacher for. it says so in the book about learning magic. If there is no known seller and you have to search for some hidden city and hope some one will break the taboo, in a monster filled world you would be more likely to die than find some one to teach you the spell.

I'm not sure how that's incompatible with anything I said. I said if you find the market, you can buy it. finding the market is your own problem.

Some things like high level spells do not have a market.

If there is supply and demand, then there is a potential for a market. Are you saying there is no demand or no supply?

flatline wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Actually it dosn't say that atlantis won't sell to humans, it says they are discriminated against and treated like second class citizens at best and slaves at worst. you can still wind up finding a seller, you just have to find merchants willing to sell to humans.

as for that GMG entry, yea, that's true, but that dosn't really address my point. It's in reference how different markets exist within Rifts Earth--you can't find, say, Armatech weapons easially or likely at all in the burbs because The Republic of Japan and Coalition states have no idea that each-other even exist, let alone have trade. Or you are more likely to find Triax goods in the NGR but not every gun shop in NA will have them, ect.

What i'm trying to say is "It's a big world with megaversal connetions, and a player can find a seller if they are willing to travel to where there is a market with people willing to sell. The GMG section mentions not having guns from south america readially available elsewhere. But if you travel TO south america, then they will be.

I'm saying that generally not much keeps players from going out of their way to find a market for a special purchase. For example, if the party mage wants to learn that spell, they can go make a special trip just to try to find someplace in the federation of magic where they can buy it--Every high magus knows it, one of them is going to be willing to teach for the right price. And that's just one possibility off the top of my head, and hardly the only place on earth where it could be learned.

You seem to be operating under the assumption that PC's are relatively stationary and might not find what they're looking for in their area. I'm saying PC's can go anywhere they want to go if they have the means to do so. If a party mage wants a high level spell, he can go looking for seller. The famous magic using cities are pretty well known, ONE of them has to have it available. just hop around the federation of magic you'll get lucky eventually. Or you'll get enslaved and/or killed--that's kind of risk you run traveling in Rifts Earth

Every high magus may know it but by the books high level spells are hard to get a teacher for. it says so in the book about learning magic. If there is no known seller and you have to search for some hidden city and hope some one will break the taboo, in a monster filled world you would be more likely to die than find some one to teach you the spell.

I'm not sure how that's incompatible with anything I said. I said if you find the market, you can buy it. finding the market is your own problem.

Some things like high level spells do not have a market.

If there is supply and demand, then there is a potential for a market. Are you saying there is no demand or no supply?

According to the book no one sells high level spells, they might allow you to pay to learn them if you do something good but bye the book no one sells them. So no supply.

Blue_Lion wrote:

flatline wrote:If there is supply and demand, then there is a potential for a market. Are you saying there is no demand or no supply?

According to the book no one sells high level spells, they might allow you to pay to learn them if you do something good but bye the book no one sells them. So no supply.

And does that make sense to you? Really?

If a 1st level Temporal Wizard can sell a 15th level spell for millions of $$$, why wouldn't he?

Shifters and the RUE LLW variant (can't remember the name) also have relatively easy access to high level spells. Why wouldn't they be willing to be set for life by selling that knowledge?

Also, look at the magic communities that have been detailed (and then, in some cases, destroyed). High level spells all over the place. How is this consistent with "no supply"?

It. Makes. No. Sense.

flatline wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

flatline wrote:If there is supply and demand, then there is a potential for a market. Are you saying there is no demand or no supply?

According to the book no one sells high level spells, they might allow you to pay to learn them if you do something good but bye the book no one sells them. So no supply.

And does that make sense to you? Really?

If a 1st level Temporal Wizard can sell a 15th level spell for millions of $$$, why wouldn't he?

Shifters and the RUE LLW variant (can't remember the name) also have relatively easy access to high level spells. Why wouldn't they be willing to be set for life by selling that knowledge?

Also, look at the magic communities that have been detailed (and then, in some cases, destroyed). High level spells all over the place. How is this consistent with "no supply"?

It. Makes. No. Sense.

Well maybe because only high level casters can teach.
Maybe because they are taught to hoard magic.
Maybe he does not trust what the person will do with the spell.
Maybe he will charge them and teleport away.
Maybe he just does not want to.


What I think does not matter by RAW it does not happen.

You are thinking with a information age mind set that does not mean that mind set is in rifts.

Blue_Lion wrote:

flatline wrote:
If there is supply and demand, then there is a potential for a market. Are you saying there is no demand or no supply?

According to the book no one sells high level spells,[ they might allow you to pay to learn them if you do something good but bye the book no one sells them. So no supply.

Source?

My RUE says they are rarely available with a 10% availability. which means that the book says they are sold in 10% of potential magic learning locations. that means there is a market according to the book.

Rare market ≠ no market.

Silver plated U rounds with a led ablative coating to make it "safe to handle". The led could pierce so it would peel from the exterior of the silver which then enters the body. Gee is the silver even necessary or do radio active rounds penetrate regardless. If your afraid the silver plating would shield the radiation... Only plate the conical part of the bullet and leave the rear that the casing is crimped onto exposed. Score it so it splits on penetration, after it sheers of the led coat and redirects all over, with a central penetrator that is silver plated at the tip and bare uranium the rest of the length.

Zer0 Kay wrote:Silver plated U rounds with a led ablative coating to make it "safe to handle". The led could pierce so it would peel from the exterior of the silver which then enters the body. Gee is the silver even necessary or do radio active rounds penetrate regardless. If your afraid the silver plating would shield the radiation... Only plate the conical part of the bullet and leave the rear that the casing is crimped onto exposed. Score it so it splits on penetration, after it sheers of the led coat and redirects all over, with a central penetrator that is silver plated at the tip and bare uranium the rest of the length.

RAW the U-rounds penetrate regardless. also the radiation is not the stuff that causes the regen-negating effect, it's a mystical property of the uranium itself. (much like how silver does its thing.)

You would think most of the world's easier to reach silver mines would be more or less tapped out by the time of the coming of the rifts. But I have a vague recollection of underground rifts randomly depositing mineral veins, lakes, and weirder things immediately after the cateclism. Memory says those violent and pounding rifts that first erupted have almost all subsided to steady, recognizable magical rivers instead off doomsday magical flooding, but the minerals are still down there, right?

Given the price of going full conversion cyborg (both mentally and monetarily) yet it being fairly common for miners in the New West and Russia I would assume silver VERY lucrative.

from what I remember the implication is that most of the deposits of various materials in the ground were "restocked" by the initial rifts, that's not to say that all the elements reappeared in the same spots that they used to be, so you could have a deposit of gold, iron, lead uranium or whatever show up in an old salt, oil, or coal mine, and vice versa

There has been no official answer in canon.....
...how ever Rifter #0 had an extensive article on this (which seems to be what is being recalled here). In that article there was a lot of underground rifts. Parts of the planet were swapped with other planets. On the surface this allows for the changed maps, and entire cities to rift in.....
....underground though you can get pockets of ore, seems of minerals and other such things. Which all have to be carefully prospected for and mined.