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Laser Communication is a skill that's in all of my Palladium books but they don't describe it really well. I could search it but I know I'd just get some complicated science page.

So... what is it and how do you usually use it in the context of an adventure? I'd rather not leave it as a completely useless skill.

Get rid of it. It shouldn't be a separate skill from radio:advanced.

Once the hardware is set up, it behaves exactly like a regular radio. The only difference is that rather than broadcasting and receiving radio waves, you have a line of sight with the other radio and use light as the carrier. For all practical purposes, it's no different from a radio with a highly directional antenna.

Banana Prince wrote:Laser Communication is a skill that's in all of my Palladium books but they don't describe it really well. I could search it but I know I'd just get some complicated science page.

So... what is it and how do you usually use it in the context of an adventure? I'd rather not leave it as a completely useless skill.

the simple answer is its a form of point to point secure "radio" communications. Yes I know its not radio but that is the simple way to start.

Laser coms use an encrypted typically not visible spectrum laser in order to setup point to point communications links.
if you do not have line of sight to the transmitter, (or a reflector or relay) there is no way to communicate.
this also means it is difficult to impossible to intercept the communications over the link, and its potentially impossible to "tap" the communications and listen in especially without the intended parties knowing you are tapping their coms, because you have to get a receiver physically into the beam to detect and read it.

if you are concerned about security of your messages the next (obvious) step is to encrypt the communication to make even an intercepted communication impossible to decrypt without the proper encryption codes.

hope that helps.

flatline wrote:Get rid of it. It shouldn't be a separate skill from radio:advanced.

Once the hardware is set up, it behaves exactly like a regular radio. The only difference is that rather than broadcasting and receiving radio waves, you have a line of sight with the other radio and use light as the carrier. For all practical purposes, it's no different from a radio with a highly directional antenna.

Oh. I was imagining something like software used for CDs. Pokemon games now uses Laser Communication to link two devices - so my second guess was that it was a way for two people to link devices and share info digitally - like if two Rogue Scholars wanted to share documents.

Laser Comunication would cover both remote laser coms (used in similar ways to radios, but point to point, and unjammable) and Fiber Optics (lasers down lightpipes) and various other uses of lasers.
Yes it would be hugely broad....but that is how skills in Palladium work so nothing new there.

Banana Prince wrote:

flatline wrote:Get rid of it. It shouldn't be a separate skill from radio:advanced.

Once the hardware is set up, it behaves exactly like a regular radio. The only difference is that rather than broadcasting and receiving radio waves, you have a line of sight with the other radio and use light as the carrier. For all practical purposes, it's no different from a radio with a highly directional antenna.

Oh. I was imagining something like software used for CDs. Pokemon games now uses Laser Communication to link two devices - so my second guess was that it was a way for two people to link devices and share info digitally - like if two Rogue Scholars wanted to share documents.

in a sense that is what it is. but it can do much more.

Laser communications basically work like this:

you take a laser that has been designed for long range but low intensity (that is, not "bright" enough of light to count as a weapon), and aim it at the thing you want to talk to. that thing needs a camera able to pick up the laser light when the laser hits it.

to send a message, you alter the beam so that it holds the information you want to send. the simplest way is to turn it on and off very fast so the beam flashes.. this could send something analog like morse code or digital like computer data in it's 1's and 0's. more advanced laser comms could also mess around with things like frequency (color) or intensity (brightness) to send basically the same stuff even faster. really advanced systems could send multiple sets of data at the same time using different frequencies of lasers running at the same time.

for two way communication, both people involved need one of these lasers and one of these cameras.

Generally, laser communications would work as digital data. you record a message onto a computer (be it text, video, or just audio) then it is sent by the laser to the other person, whose own computer translates it back. even something that seems like a basic phonecall would spend time in computers at each end.

the advantages of laser communications are:
long range. - lasers do not spread out or weaken the same way radio signals do over distance, so they can go a lot farther. (lasers do spread out, for different reasons, it just takes a lot farther before it becomes noticeable)
reliability. - lasers are not effected by storms, haze, or other such weather as much as radio is. (they can be effected, but it is mostly a loss of range not message, unlike radio.)
Security - Lasers are extremely hard to intercept. with radio anyone between you and the person you are talking to can overhear the whole discussion if they have a radio on them. with a laser they would have to literally be blocking the beam. and that would stop the discussion.
nearly impossible to jam - pretty much what it says. you can't really jam a laser communication. the most you can hope to do is "block" by putting something in the way.


the downsides though:
Aiming - you have to know exactly where to aim the laser so that it hits the person you want to talk to and their receiver. this can be tricky the farther away you are, or if there is stuff in the way like trees, rocks, etc.
hardware - both sides have to have laser comms for 2 way communications, and even a 1 way comm means that the receiver has the have the right hardware to pick it up. this hardware will usually need at least basic care given to frequently it so all the parts work right.
range - for all the range advantage i harped on earlier, this can be an issues to. specifically, lasers go in a straight line. so if the person you need to talk to is not within sight, or is over the horizon, your out of luck. you can try to use a third laser comm equipped vehicle/location to act as a relay, but the same issues apply there. on a planet, if someone is far enough away you might have to bounce a message through a lot of such relays. which slows down the delivery and makes things less secure.

eliakon wrote:Laser Comunication would cover both remote laser coms (used in similar ways to radios, but point to point, and unjammable) and Fiber Optics (lasers down lightpipes) and various other uses of lasers.
Yes it would be hugely broad....but that is how skills in Palladium work so nothing new there.

It would not be unjammable it would be just jammed in a different way. If one end is targeted by a strong source of the same type of light it would loose the ability to see the weaker light and could even suffer damage if the laser targeting it was to powerful for it to receive.

Or simply obstruct the beam somehow.

In any case, you'd need laser communications to build and service a system, not operate one.

Blue_Lion wrote:

eliakon wrote:Laser Comunication would cover both remote laser coms (used in similar ways to radios, but point to point, and unjammable) and Fiber Optics (lasers down lightpipes) and various other uses of lasers.
Yes it would be hugely broad....but that is how skills in Palladium work so nothing new there.

It would not be unjammable it would be just jammed in a different way. If one end is targeted by a strong source of the same type of light it would loose the ability to see the weaker light and could even suffer damage if the laser targeting it was to powerful for it to receive.

Yes if you shoot out their camera with a laser you will mess it up....
....that isn't jamming though that's more of 'I shoot out your com unit'....

eliakon wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

eliakon wrote:Laser Comunication would cover both remote laser coms (used in similar ways to radios, but point to point, and unjammable) and Fiber Optics (lasers down lightpipes) and various other uses of lasers.
Yes it would be hugely broad....but that is how skills in Palladium work so nothing new there.

It would not be unjammable it would be just jammed in a different way. If one end is targeted by a strong source of the same type of light it would loose the ability to see the weaker light and could even suffer damage if the laser targeting it was to powerful for it to receive.

Yes if you shoot out their camera with a laser you will mess it up....
....that isn't jamming though that's more of 'I shoot out your com unit'....

If I spray an aerosol that is opaque to the laser, then I've jammed it.
Or if I put a physical object that is opaque to the the laser, then I've jammed it.

If the atmosphere isn't perfectly transparent to your laser, then with the proper equipment I can eavesdrop on your signal without you knowing. If the atmosphere is perfectly transparent, then all I need to do is add tiny particles to the path of the beam to achieve the same effect.

Don't get me wrong, laser communications are a great way to communicate across long distances for very little power that, under the proper circumstances, can be very difficult to detect or intercept, but the notion that they're unjammable is just plain wrong.

I've been playing PB games for 27 years and I didn't know any of this. Thanks to the OP and all of the knowledgeable people who answered. However, for the style of characters I build/games I play in..it remains a throw away skill.

Alrik Vas wrote:In any case, you'd need laser communications to build and service a system, not operate one.

Yes and no. Proper alignment between receivers is not something a basic radio operator would know. To me, Radio: Laser (probably should be Communications: Laser) is about properly setting up, aligning, servicing, and building laser comm systems.

Once it is set up, working, and targeted properly at a receiver, anyone with Radio: Basic can pic up the mic and send a signal.

The only way I would use this skill, is if I built my own floating satellite to relay transmissions from the field to base.

eliakon wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

eliakon wrote:Laser Comunication would cover both remote laser coms (used in similar ways to radios, but point to point, and unjammable) and Fiber Optics (lasers down lightpipes) and various other uses of lasers.
Yes it would be hugely broad....but that is how skills in Palladium work so nothing new there.

It would not be unjammable it would be just jammed in a different way. If one end is targeted by a strong source of the same type of light it would loose the ability to see the weaker light and could even suffer damage if the laser targeting it was to powerful for it to receive.

Yes if you shoot out their camera with a laser you will mess it up....
....that isn't jamming though that's more of 'I shoot out your com unit'....

I was talking about flooding it with the same type of light to blind it that is the same as sending out em signal to drown out an EM signal. A strong EM signal can damage receiving equipment It is the same principle but a different type of energy.

flatline wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

eliakon wrote:Laser Comunication would cover both remote laser coms (used in similar ways to radios, but point to point, and unjammable) and Fiber Optics (lasers down lightpipes) and various other uses of lasers.
Yes it would be hugely broad....but that is how skills in Palladium work so nothing new there.

It would not be unjammable it would be just jammed in a different way. If one end is targeted by a strong source of the same type of light it would loose the ability to see the weaker light and could even suffer damage if the laser targeting it was to powerful for it to receive.

Yes if you shoot out their camera with a laser you will mess it up....
....that isn't jamming though that's more of 'I shoot out your com unit'....

If I spray an aerosol that is opaque to the laser, then I've jammed it.
Or if I put a physical object that is opaque to the the laser, then I've jammed it.

If the atmosphere isn't perfectly transparent to your laser, then with the proper equipment I can eavesdrop on your signal without you knowing. If the atmosphere is perfectly transparent, then all I need to do is add tiny particles to the path of the beam to achieve the same effect.

Don't get me wrong, laser communications are a great way to communicate across long distances for very little power that, under the proper circumstances, can be very difficult to detect or intercept, but the notion that they're unjammable is just plain wrong.

Jamming is using the same type of energy to flood the receivers to prevent the ability to detect the transmission what you are describing is blocking not jamming.

To Jam a radio you send out a stronger radio signal across the part of spectrum used to make receiving the transmission impossible. It is not something that blocks transmission but hides it behind a stronger transmission.

Tiree wrote:The only way I would use this skill, is if I built my own floating satellite to relay transmissions from the field to base.

Well as satellites are impossible in rifts I would say use High altitude drones to bonce it off of.

If you have a powerful enough laser, you could bounce it off the moon. But that's a lot of trouble when you can do the same thing with a lot less energy just by using regular radio waves.

Blue_Lion wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

eliakon wrote:Laser Comunication would cover both remote laser coms (used in similar ways to radios, but point to point, and unjammable) and Fiber Optics (lasers down lightpipes) and various other uses of lasers.
Yes it would be hugely broad....but that is how skills in Palladium work so nothing new there.

It would not be unjammable it would be just jammed in a different way. If one end is targeted by a strong source of the same type of light it would loose the ability to see the weaker light and could even suffer damage if the laser targeting it was to powerful for it to receive.

Yes if you shoot out their camera with a laser you will mess it up....
....that isn't jamming though that's more of 'I shoot out your com unit'....

I was talking about flooding it with the same type of light to blind it that is the same as sending out em signal to drown out an EM signal. A strong EM signal can damage receiving equipment It is the same principle but a different type of energy.

Since laser optics cameras tend to be polarized so that the incoming light is the only one that the lens lets through (to avoid this very problem, as well as increase sensitivity) it would have to be light of the same polarity as the laser....
...I.e. your sending out a laser beam, of the exact same spectra...but powerful enough to drown out all other light sources....
...that sounds like getting into damage (not to mention you will have to drop that laser beam into the receiver too so aiming becomes an issue....

Blue_Lion wrote:

Tiree wrote:The only way I would use this skill, is if I built my own floating satellite to relay transmissions from the field to base.

Well as satellites are impossible in rifts I would say use High altitude drones to bonce it off of.

You dont even need to do that. You can bounce them off of objects in low orbit, if they are reflective enough. As long as said object is stationary and/or moves in a completely predictable pattern, and you know the exact location of the receiver. Given that the entire earth is surrounded by a debris field, and that the larger objects in that field almost assuredly move in predictable patterns, there is a plethora of ability to use laser comms long range.

You could use a starship hull, piece of debris, anything really.

The main reason laser communications are considered "unjammable" or very hard to jam is not because it is difficult to disrupt them (it is not - absurdly easy, even) - but because 99% of the time you have no way to know it is even happening. Unless you literally stumble through the beam, you have no way to detect it or even suspect it is happening. Ergo, the main protection laser comms have from jamming, interception, and interference is their relative ability to avoid detection entirely.

If you know where a comm laser is, though - its absurdly easy to disrupt or block. Tapping it is quite a bit harder and requires some very specialized equipment, but blocking it/intercepting it is easy, and so is "jamming" it if you know where it is.

eliakon wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

eliakon wrote:Laser Comunication would cover both remote laser coms (used in similar ways to radios, but point to point, and unjammable) and Fiber Optics (lasers down lightpipes) and various other uses of lasers.
Yes it would be hugely broad....but that is how skills in Palladium work so nothing new there.

It would not be unjammable it would be just jammed in a different way. If one end is targeted by a strong source of the same type of light it would loose the ability to see the weaker light and could even suffer damage if the laser targeting it was to powerful for it to receive.

Yes if you shoot out their camera with a laser you will mess it up....
....that isn't jamming though that's more of 'I shoot out your com unit'....

I was talking about flooding it with the same type of light to blind it that is the same as sending out em signal to drown out an EM signal. A strong EM signal can damage receiving equipment It is the same principle but a different type of energy.

Since laser optics cameras tend to be polarized so that the incoming light is the only one that the lens lets through (to avoid this very problem, as well as increase sensitivity) it would have to be light of the same polarity as the laser....
...I.e. your sending out a laser beam, of the exact same spectra...but powerful enough to drown out all other light sources....
...that sounds like getting into damage (not to mention you will have to drop that laser beam into the receiver too so aiming becomes an issue....

That is why I said there may suffer damage. Not that the damage was the intent. Same thing can happen with Radios if they are hit by a radio wave to strong it can damage the receiver. Typically this type of damage does not happen during standard use, but may happen in jamming.
On aiming you have a guide beam that can be detected with the right type of sensors/optics makes locating and targeting allot easier to do.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

Tiree wrote:The only way I would use this skill, is if I built my own floating satellite to relay transmissions from the field to base.

Well as satellites are impossible in rifts I would say use High altitude drones to bonce it off of.

You dont even need to do that. You can bounce them off of objects in low orbit, if they are reflective enough. As long as said object is stationary and/or moves in a completely predictable pattern, and you know the exact location of the receiver. Given that the entire earth is surrounded by a debris field, and that the larger objects in that field almost assuredly move in predictable patterns, there is a plethora of ability to use laser comms long range.

You could use a starship hull, piece of debris, anything really.

The main reason laser communications are considered "unjammable" or very hard to jam is not because it is difficult to disrupt them (it is not - absurdly easy, even) - but because 99% of the time you have no way to know it is even happening. Unless you literally stumble through the beam, you have no way to detect it or even suspect it is happening. Ergo, the main protection laser comms have from jamming, interception, and interference is their relative ability to avoid detection entirely.

If you know where a comm laser is, though - its absurdly easy to disrupt or block. Tapping it is quite a bit harder and requires some very specialized equipment, but blocking it/intercepting it is easy, and so is "jamming" it if you know where it is.

It would require not only a reflective surface but that the surface is at just the right angle to hit the distant end. Just using some random space debris does not work requires that something sets the reflective surface to the right angle and keep it there, it requires high level of exact variables.
The debris field makes it less likely to work as the debris would drift in front of the surface and disrupt the beam and cause black outs.

Lasers are not undetectable there is always some level of scatter do to particles in the atmosphere. They may not be in a spectrum visible with the naked eye but they are detectable without being in the beam. In other words with the right optics/sensors you can see the laser beam with sensors there could be scanning for laser scatter, increasing detection range.

Does anyone have any relative numbers on this 'scatter'? How much light are we talking here? If we want to have this be detectable we will need a certain level of light otherwise its going to come into the 'only in a scientific technicality' level of 'detectable'

eliakon wrote:Does anyone have any relative numbers on this 'scatter'? How much light are we talking here? If we want to have this be detectable we will need a certain level of light otherwise its going to come into the 'only in a scientific technicality' level of 'detectable'

I was unable in a brief search to find any actual numbers on the loss ratios. with that said my belief is that in most cases the actual percentage of loss due to scatter is rather low. likely in the single digit percentages or less over "typical" distances. bearing in mind that some atmospheric conditions can dramatically change that. for instance smoke and fog, can rapidly degrade optical view distance, which would likely have similar effects on lasers.

eliakon wrote:Does anyone have any relative numbers on this 'scatter'? How much light are we talking here? If we want to have this be detectable we will need a certain level of light otherwise its going to come into the 'only in a scientific technicality' level of 'detectable'

You would need more than just the number on scatter, such as brightness of a laser and its size and what is going on in the environment. As I said it is not likely naked eye but advanced optics/sensors they can detect well below what we would normally be detectable with current tech giving rifts tech it they should be able to detect much lower. Not all lasers are small pin point of light to begin with giving the difficult of hitting with a small point at long distance the laser may be significant size.

This sight has pictures of real world military laser detection. They have pics showing a laser designate a target in use at night taking with current optics camera. (it is an article on laser detection.)

http://www.militaryaerospace.com/articl ... field.html

Blue_Lion wrote:

eliakon wrote:Does anyone have any relative numbers on this 'scatter'? How much light are we talking here? If we want to have this be detectable we will need a certain level of light otherwise its going to come into the 'only in a scientific technicality' level of 'detectable'

You would need more than just the number on scatter, such as brightness of a laser and its size and what is going on in the environment. As I said it is not likely naked eye but advanced optics/sensors they can detect well below what we would normally be detectable with current tech giving rifts tech it they should be able to detect much lower. Not all lasers are small pin point of light to begin with giving the difficult of hitting with a small point at long distance the laser may be significant size.

This sight has pictures of real world military laser detection. They have pics showing a laser designate a target in use at night taking with current optics camera. (it is an article on laser detection.)

http://www.militaryaerospace.com/articl ... field.html

I am...dubious
The article is on detecting laser designators. A laser that is designed to be detected. Its not at all about detecting communications lasers, let alone tapping them.

And we are talking about not detecting the spread (which still requires you be in the light path) but scatter (which is much smaller)

eliakon wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

eliakon wrote:Does anyone have any relative numbers on this 'scatter'? How much light are we talking here? If we want to have this be detectable we will need a certain level of light otherwise its going to come into the 'only in a scientific technicality' level of 'detectable'

You would need more than just the number on scatter, such as brightness of a laser and its size and what is going on in the environment. As I said it is not likely naked eye but advanced optics/sensors they can detect well below what we would normally be detectable with current tech giving rifts tech it they should be able to detect much lower. Not all lasers are small pin point of light to begin with giving the difficult of hitting with a small point at long distance the laser may be significant size.

This sight has pictures of real world military laser detection. They have pics showing a laser designate a target in use at night taking with current optics camera. (it is an article on laser detection.)

http://www.militaryaerospace.com/articl ... field.html

I am...dubious
The article is on detecting laser designators. A laser that is designed to be detected. Its not at all about detecting communications lasers, let alone tapping them.

And we are talking about not detecting the spread (which still requires you be in the light path) but scatter (which is much smaller)

Your statement on laser designators being made to be detected is not accurate. (Not sure what you mean by the laser was designed to be detected, when it is outside of visual range all lasers are polarized light and operate the same general way.)
Laser designators are not designed to be detected, they are designed to mark a target and have been moved to be to be outside NVG detection range. (So they actually took steps to make them harder to detect if it was made to be easy to detect it would be a red laser in the visible spectrum.)

Laser guided munitions are designed to detect lasers in a certain frequency/wave length.

So the laser is not designed to be detected but made hard to detect and the munitions is designed to detect it.

I used the sight because it showed the laser scatter in the picture showing that it can be detected.

Blue_Lion wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

eliakon wrote:Does anyone have any relative numbers on this 'scatter'? How much light are we talking here? If we want to have this be detectable we will need a certain level of light otherwise its going to come into the 'only in a scientific technicality' level of 'detectable'

You would need more than just the number on scatter, such as brightness of a laser and its size and what is going on in the environment. As I said it is not likely naked eye but advanced optics/sensors they can detect well below what we would normally be detectable with current tech giving rifts tech it they should be able to detect much lower. Not all lasers are small pin point of light to begin with giving the difficult of hitting with a small point at long distance the laser may be significant size.

This sight has pictures of real world military laser detection. They have pics showing a laser designate a target in use at night taking with current optics camera. (it is an article on laser detection.)

http://www.militaryaerospace.com/articl ... field.html

I am...dubious
The article is on detecting laser designators. A laser that is designed to be detected. Its not at all about detecting communications lasers, let alone tapping them.

And we are talking about not detecting the spread (which still requires you be in the light path) but scatter (which is much smaller)

Your statement on laser designators is not accurate.
Laser designators are not designed to be detected, they are designed to mark a target and have been moved to be to be outside NVG detection range. (So they actually took steps to make them harder to detect if it was made to be easy to detect it would be a red laser in the visible spectrum.)

Laser guided munitions are designed to detect lasers in a certain frequency/wave length.

So the laser is not designed to be detected but made hard to detect and the munitions is designed to detect it.

I used the sight because it showed the laser scatter in the picture showing that it can be detected.

It isn't 'harder to detect' it was simply moved from the most common detection ranges.
It is still designed to be easy to detect with the targeting gear.
That means that it is still an apples to oranges comparison to communications lasers and their detectability

If we are to judge the claim that it is possible to detect communications lasers, then we need information on those lasers. Not on laser weapons, not on laser targeting systems, but on actual apples to apples communications lasers.

eliakon wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

eliakon wrote:Does anyone have any relative numbers on this 'scatter'? How much light are we talking here? If we want to have this be detectable we will need a certain level of light otherwise its going to come into the 'only in a scientific technicality' level of 'detectable'

You would need more than just the number on scatter, such as brightness of a laser and its size and what is going on in the environment. As I said it is not likely naked eye but advanced optics/sensors they can detect well below what we would normally be detectable with current tech giving rifts tech it they should be able to detect much lower. Not all lasers are small pin point of light to begin with giving the difficult of hitting with a small point at long distance the laser may be significant size.

This sight has pictures of real world military laser detection. They have pics showing a laser designate a target in use at night taking with current optics camera. (it is an article on laser detection.)

http://www.militaryaerospace.com/articl ... field.html

I am...dubious
The article is on detecting laser designators. A laser that is designed to be detected. Its not at all about detecting communications lasers, let alone tapping them.

And we are talking about not detecting the spread (which still requires you be in the light path) but scatter (which is much smaller)

Your statement on laser designators is not accurate.
Laser designators are not designed to be detected, they are designed to mark a target and have been moved to be to be outside NVG detection range. (So they actually took steps to make them harder to detect if it was made to be easy to detect it would be a red laser in the visible spectrum.)

Laser guided munitions are designed to detect lasers in a certain frequency/wave length.

So the laser is not designed to be detected but made hard to detect and the munitions is designed to detect it.

I used the sight because it showed the laser scatter in the picture showing that it can be detected.

It isn't 'harder to detect' it was simply moved from the most common detection ranges.
It is still designed to be easy to detect with the targeting gear.
That means that it is still an apples to oranges comparison to communications lasers and their detectability

If we are to judge the claim that it is possible to detect communications lasers, then we need information on those lasers. Not on laser weapons, not on laser targeting systems, but on actual apples to apples communications lasers.

How do you make light hard to detect?

(I would think how you make light hard to detect is move it outside the most common visual spectrum used by detection gear. If anything they would want communication lasers to be easy to detect so the distant end can find them and to help with alignment corrections giving the lack of GPS.)

Laser communication is not widely available so sifting through data to get that is setting an near impossible task most articles on laser detection do not specify if it detects if you are the target or images it and many geared towards police laser guns or lasers to detect X.(not to mention pointless as a laser is a laser and all would have the same scatter affects regardless of intended use.) What makes you think the laser radiation scatter from a communication device is harder to detect than the scatter from a marking device? (Is there some information that says they are detected differently?)

I proved that non visible lasers can be detected by modern sensors, not just the point of impact but the beams scatter. Your that is the wrong type of light and is made to be detected is poor deflection of the the fact lasers can be detected, and countering evidence with your opinion not fact. (you need to provide evidence that it would not work to counter evidence that it can work not just state that is not the same.)

Light is light so laser light is laser light so it is an apple to apple comparison as we have no information saying that detecting laser communications is any different. So unless you have any counter evidence I have proven that lasers can be detected.


(you have to prove it is not detected the same way not just say it.)

flatline wrote:Get rid of it. It shouldn't be a separate skill from radio:advanced.

Once the hardware is set up, it behaves exactly like a regular radio. The only difference is that rather than broadcasting and receiving radio waves, you have a line of sight with the other radio and use light as the carrier. For all practical purposes, it's no different from a radio with a highly directional antenna.

No its the same as direct link microwave. Which has yo be regular aligned and on moving vehicles constantly unless it is automated. Your standard ground rat wouldn't be trained in it off the bat.

eliakon wrote:Laser Comunication would cover both remote laser coms (used in similar ways to radios, but point to point, and unjammable) and Fiber Optics (lasers down lightpipes) and various other uses of lasers.
Yes it would be hugely broad....but that is how skills in Palladium work so nothing new there.

It isn't unjammable it is untappable. Very easily jammed by objects or even a correct density of water particulate to cause refraction. Fiber comms is far different and while through the air you'd only be able to send serial, unless you have a multi lense/sensor device, it is quite easy to use a single fiber pair to do bidirectional (each strand one direction) parallel data (multi step allows for multiple beams to be fired down one strand.)

I don't think this was posted yet, but commercial LiFi for the home is coming out. You can look up LiFi products, but this thread pretty much covers everything you'd want to know

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li-Fi

Ok, now think of fiber optics.

Now remove the fiber.

Boom. Laser communications.

Mark Hall wrote:Ok, now think of fiber optics.

Now remove the fiber.

Boom. Laser communications.

So it makes no sense for it to be its own skill.

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:Ok, now think of fiber optics.

Now remove the fiber.

Boom. Laser communications.

So it makes no sense for it to be its own skill.

--flatline

Pretty much.

Mark Hall wrote:

flatline wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:Ok, now think of fiber optics.

Now remove the fiber.

Boom. Laser communications.

So it makes no sense for it to be its own skill.

--flatline

Pretty much.

Not so much because Laser comms are aimed and are highly directional.

With Fiber Optics the light just goes where the cable goes.

Now the difference between setting up electric land lines and fiber optic cable isn't too far apart.
Which is probily why the latter two are a subset of the laser comms skill.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:

flatline wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:Ok, now think of fiber optics.

Now remove the fiber.

Boom. Laser communications.

So it makes no sense for it to be its own skill.

--flatline

Pretty much.

Not so much because Laser comms are aimed and are highly directional.

For the record, any low power radio communication with high gain antennas is aimed and highly directional.

As I said at the beginning of the thread, laser communications should not be it's own skill. It should be included in the advanced radio skill.

--flatline

the medium is highly different from radio so yeah, it would need it's own skill.

it occurs to me that the laser communications skill ought to let you use those laser microphone things, at least at a penalty, even if you don't have a surveillance systems focused skill

glitterboy2098 wrote:the medium is highly different from radio so yeah, it would need it's own skill.

it occurs to me that the laser communications skill ought to let you use those laser microphone things, at least at a penalty, even if you don't have a surveillance systems focused skill

yep. I would agree.

Which reminds me of a sci-fri segment (NPR science show) that talked about determining what was being said by watching a high quality video of a chip bag in the presence of someone talking. (High quality being better the HD.) Which I would guess would take a SS skill to do…..along with/or maybe the optics skill.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:the medium is highly different from radio so yeah, it would need it's own skill.

it occurs to me that the laser communications skill ought to let you use those laser microphone things, at least at a penalty, even if you don't have a surveillance systems focused skill

yep. I would agree.

Which reminds me of a sci-fri segment (NPR science show) that talked about determining what was being said by watching a high quality video of a chip bag in the presence of someone talking. (High quality being better the HD.) Which I would guess would take a SS skill to do…..along with/or maybe the optics skill.

that's just a variation on the old "lip reading" and or use a sensitive laser on a window and reconstruct the conversation based on the vibrations of the window.

guardiandashi wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:the medium is highly different from radio so yeah, it would need it's own skill.

it occurs to me that the laser communications skill ought to let you use those laser microphone things, at least at a penalty, even if you don't have a surveillance systems focused skill

yep. I would agree.

Which reminds me of a sci-fri segment (NPR science show) that talked about determining what was being said by watching a high quality video of a chip bag in the presence of someone talking. (High quality being better the HD.) Which I would guess would take a SS skill to do…..along with/or maybe the optics skill.

that's just a variation on the old "lip reading" and or use a sensitive laser on a window and reconstruct the conversation based on the vibrations of the window.

It's similar, but not quite the same. Using a laser to pick up vibrations on a window is still utilizing the sound waves directly, just through a secondary medium. The piece he was talking about "translates" images into sound using very high-resolution images and computer algorithms.

So I would say it would take more than just SS and optics, but also throw in some advanced math and/or computer use to try and do such a thing. Unless you have a pre-built device/system already designed for that use, then probably just an SS.

Tiree wrote:The only way I would use this skill, is if I built my own floating satellite to relay transmissions from the field to base.

It is also good for secure in combat communications with other mobile units/vehicles/robot vehicles/power armor. If everybody is in line of sight it is a great way to coordinate without risking combat chatter leaking out and giving your positions away. If anybody is close enough any of your comms your group is already in contact with them.

kaid wrote:

Tiree wrote:The only way I would use this skill, is if I built my own floating satellite to relay transmissions from the field to base.

It is also good for secure in combat communications with other mobile units/vehicles/robot vehicles/power armor. If everybody is in line of sight it is a great way to coordinate without risking combat chatter leaking out and giving your positions away. If anybody is close enough any of your comms your group is already in contact with them.

It is also applicable to a space campain if the PC's are the crew of the ship they are traveling on. (Both 3G and AU.[& RT])

A very advanced form of the heliograph.

Wouldn't this be better a Tech skill and just include every non-weapon based tech that uses lasers? From guidance, comm., storage, ext. Have it include usage, repair, ext.

SpiritInterface wrote:A very advanced form of the heliograph.

If you are going to the very basic form, yes.
You could of also said they are highly advanced signaling lamps. Which were the main comms on the Titanic.

rem1093 wrote:Wouldn't this be better a Tech skill and just include every non-weapon based tech that uses lasers? From guidance, comm., storage, ext. Have it include usage, repair, ext.

It might be that there should be a laser tech skill in the Technical section to covers the same. That way those with just a Tech skill program would be able to take it also.