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Is there a magic class where magic is made to happen through force of will, not by spell? I played Mage the Ascension early on and it ruined me for Palladium's magic system.

What do you think spells are? A mage by force of will shaping magic energy into doing work for him.

The Chaos Mage or the D Shifter from Chaos Earth skills fit your needs nicely.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:What do you think spells are? A mage by force of will shaping magic energy into doing work for him.

The spells, as they are, are too limited tactilly, it feels to me.

say652 wrote:The Chaos Mage or the D Shifter from Chaos Earth skills fit your needs nicely.

Remind me where those are those located please.

Chaos Earth, the Magic Book.

For total freeform the D Shifter definitely fits.

Hmmm. Ok, I don't have that book yet but thanks for the heads up.

I'll send you the pics of the occ on Facebook.

Thank you.

SittingBull wrote:Is there a magic class where magic is made to happen through force of will, not by spell? I played Mage the Ascension early on and it ruined me for Palladium's magic system.

Not familiar with the game "Mage the Ascension", but the only class with "Force of Will" to describe powers is the Cyber-Knight's Psi-Sword, maybe the Japanese Mystic Martial Arts Powers. Psychics might be thought of as "force of will" more than magic.

I suppose a Mystic can also be seen this way as their "spells" are intuitive in nature. Any one that can cast magic as a natural ability might to, even if limited per day. Maybe those with access to deific powers.

SittingBull wrote:Is there a magic class where magic is made to happen through force of will, not by spell? I played Mage the Ascension early on and it ruined me for Palladium's magic system.

Not particularly. Palladium's system is rather haphazard in a lot of ways, so clear delineation of spells is somewhat necessary.

Now, one thing you might go with is a variation on something I developed for another game. Let's call the class Awakened, both as a callback to Mage and because I can't recall an OCC named that, yet.

The Awakened have a skill, which we'll call "Reality Bending." Like most skills, it starts at 30% and gets 5% per level. Reality Bending lets you cast any spell, from any discipline, with a successful skill roll, but with a catch... you get a penalty on the die roll equal to the PPE cost of the spell, and a bonus on the die roll equal to the amount of PPE you spend. Want to cast an 8 PPE spell, when you have a 30% Reality Bending? Then you have to roll under a 22% to cast it for free. If you throw in 8 PPE, you can cast it 30% of the time. Want to be sure to cast it? Throw in 78 PPE... you can't fail.

Now, you might want to impose different penalties to narrow things a bit more. Maybe certain kinds of magic are rarer and more difficult to use... so, say, Elemental spells impose an additional -10% penalty, and Blue Flame magic imposes 20% (to pull two examples out of my butt). You might also impose some penalties on failing a Bend Reality roll... maybe points of damage equal to what you failed by? So failing a really big spell, and not throwing enough PPE at it, can kill you.

Or, if you want to open this up to other people, make Reality Bending a skill anyone can take, perhaps with some costs and prerequisites, and drop the percentages down to 5%, +5% per level, and give the Awakened a hefty bonus (say, +25%, bringing them up to the level they were at before we opened this up). So, Reality Bending requires an ME of at least 15, and you need at least Lore: Magic, Lore: Psionics, and have to be at least a minor psychic to take it (again, pulling requirements out of thin air); the skill itself takes 2-3 selections. The problem with this option is is makes a lot of mages REALLY flexible, because they don't need to learn spells and can just cast whatever, but with a chance of failure. Classes like Mystics, who are already psychics and magicians (thus having the PPE to throw at things, and meeting the minor psychic requirement), get even more flexibility... but someone like a Crazy, with a bit of extra PPE, minor psionics, and a warped sense of reality, can do things as well.

It still relies on defined spells, but that's because Palladium's system is haphazard enough on PPE costs and levels that you really can't get around that without building a very complicated system... and then you'll see several places where things can't be adequately explained by your new system. But, since you can theoretically use any spell, you can make up spells, get them approved by your GM, and use them instantly.

Mark Hall wrote:

SittingBull wrote:Is there a magic class where magic is made to happen through force of will, not by spell? I played Mage the Ascension early on and it ruined me for Palladium's magic system.

Not particularly. Palladium's system is rather haphazard in a lot of ways, so clear delineation of spells is somewhat necessary.

Now, one thing you might go with is a variation on something I developed for another game. Let's call the class Awakened, both as a callback to Mage and because I can't recall an OCC named that, yet.

The Awakened have a skill, which we'll call "Reality Bending." Like most skills, it starts at 30% and gets 5% per level. Reality Bending lets you cast any spell, from any discipline, with a successful skill roll, but with a catch... you get a penalty on the die roll equal to the PPE cost of the spell, and a bonus on the die roll equal to the amount of PPE you spend. Want to cast an 8 PPE spell, when you have a 30% Reality Bending? Then you have to roll under a 22% to cast it for free. If you throw in 8 PPE, you can cast it 30% of the time. Want to be sure to cast it? Throw in 78 PPE... you can't fail.

Now, you might want to impose different penalties to narrow things a bit more. Maybe certain kinds of magic are rarer and more difficult to use... so, say, Elemental spells impose an additional -10% penalty, and Blue Flame magic imposes 20% (to pull two examples out of my butt). You might also impose some penalties on failing a Bend Reality roll... maybe points of damage equal to what you failed by? So failing a really big spell, and not throwing enough PPE at it, can kill you.

Or, if you want to open this up to other people, make Reality Bending a skill anyone can take, perhaps with some costs and prerequisites, and drop the percentages down to 5%, +5% per level, and give the Awakened a hefty bonus (say, +25%, bringing them up to the level they were at before we opened this up). So, Reality Bending requires an ME of at least 15, and you need at least Lore: Magic, Lore: Psionics, and have to be at least a minor psychic to take it (again, pulling requirements out of thin air); the skill itself takes 2-3 selections. The problem with this option is is makes a lot of mages REALLY flexible, because they don't need to learn spells and can just cast whatever, but with a chance of failure. Classes like Mystics, who are already psychics and magicians (thus having the PPE to throw at things, and meeting the minor psychic requirement), get even more flexibility... but someone like a Crazy, with a bit of extra PPE, minor psionics, and a warped sense of reality, can do things as well.

It still relies on defined spells, but that's because Palladium's system is haphazard enough on PPE costs and levels that you really can't get around that without building a very complicated system... and then you'll see several places where things can't be adequately explained by your new system. But, since you can theoretically use any spell, you can make up spells, get them approved by your GM, and use them instantly.

I could totally work with this. I like how this is mystic related. Would play it for sure. I would finally get to use all those made up spells. If you EVER write this up, PLEASE (if you remember), let me know.

Thank you.

I was just spitballing; I have no intention of writing it up full. Take the wizard-type of your favorite Palladium game, strip out all special abilities, and use their skills and PPE. That's about what I would do, anyway.

So the wizard would have no sensing abilities?

Why should he have any innate sensing abilities? If he wants to do something, create a spell to do it.

I guess I could write up a spell to sense ley lines.

Hey, look, there are class abilities to use as a guideline!

Never played, but what you looking for may the priest. THough their faith and luck they cast spells. THough I guess still just spells.

You could just have your char have the magic proficiency of 'cast by thought alone' since you don't want to have your char chanting about while casting.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:You could just have your char have the magic proficiency of 'cast by thought alone' since you don't want to have your char chanting about while casting.

Doesn't Ocean Magic section establish that the chant is not necessary, it just makes it easier to perform? Yes here it is WB7 pg63 3rd bullet point: ""Characters who cannot speak can concentrate very deeply, saying the incantation in their mind, ...The spoken word is really a means of focus and delivery the magic energy is present in the spell caster no matter what the environment may be" . So there is no need to chant aloud, though it would seem to allow for faster delivery.

ShadowLogan wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:You could just have your char have the magic proficiency of 'cast by thought alone' since you don't want to have your char chanting about while casting.

Doesn't Ocean Magic section establish that the chant is not necessary, it just makes it easier to perform? Yes here it is WB7 pg. 63 3rd bullet point: ""Characters who cannot speak can concentrate very deeply, saying the incantation in their mind, ...The spoken word is really a means of focus and delivery the magic energy is present in the spell caster no matter what the environment may be" . So there is no need to chant aloud, though it would seem to allow for faster delivery.

●The Skill of casting w/o speaking does Double the Casting Time. And the skill have to be learned. Taking up a skill slot.
●The Magic Proficiency 'Cast by Though Alone' does not effect the casting time and is a side effect of how the mage learned how to cast magic, that come with a magic limitation NB:TtGD.

✦The other difference is that that the skill is canon - while the Proficiency is an optional text R27.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:You could just have your char have the magic proficiency of 'cast by thought alone' since you don't want to have your char chanting about while casting.

Doesn't Ocean Magic section establish that the chant is not necessary, it just makes it easier to perform? Yes here it is WB7 pg. 63 3rd bullet point: ""Characters who cannot speak can concentrate very deeply, saying the incantation in their mind, ...The spoken word is really a means of focus and delivery the magic energy is present in the spell caster no matter what the environment may be" . So there is no need to chant aloud, though it would seem to allow for faster delivery.

●The Skill of casting w/o speaking does Double the Casting Time. And the skill have to be learned. Taking up a skill slot.

Not in canon. That may be your house rule, but there is noting about that in the book.
Though it is an open question if anyone can do it or just Ocean Wizards, and if it works for all spells or just Ocean Magic.
In point of fact....it is an open question as to if this ability works for anyone or just casters who can not speak at all.
If your race has magic, but can not vocalize the rules obviously apply. It is a bigger question if a human can use the rule simply to be quite.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:●The Magic Proficiency 'Cast by Though Alone' does not effect the casting time and is a side effect of how the mage learned how to cast magic, that come with a magic limitation NB:TtGD.

Not exactly....but close enough. And yes, it may or may (not depending on which of the various rules options the GM chooses to use are in play) have a Limitation as well.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:✦The other difference is that that the skill is canon - while the Proficiency is an optional text R27.

Wouldn't it be better to call it an 'ability' Skill implies it is something that is learned, when there is no such text in the book (unless it has been shadowed recently I guess)

eliakon wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:You could just have your char have the magic proficiency of 'cast by thought alone' since you don't want to have your char chanting about while casting.

Doesn't Ocean Magic section establish that the chant is not necessary, it just makes it easier to perform? Yes here it is WB7 pg. 63 3rd bullet point: ""Characters who cannot speak can concentrate very deeply, saying the incantation in their mind, ...The spoken word is really a means of focus and delivery the magic energy is present in the spell caster no matter what the environment may be" . So there is no need to chant aloud, though it would seem to allow for faster delivery.

●The Skill of casting w/o speaking does Double the Casting Time. And the skill have to be learned. Taking up a skill slot.

Not in canon. That may be your house rule, but there is noting about that in the book.
Though it is an open question if anyone can do it or just Ocean Wizards, and if it works for all spells or just Ocean Magic.
In point of fact....it is an open question as to if this ability works for anyone or just casters who can not speak at all.
If your race has magic, but can not vocalize the rules obviously apply. It is a bigger question if a human can use the rule simply to be quite.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:●The Magic Proficiency 'Cast by Though Alone' does not effect the casting time and is a side effect of how the mage learned how to cast magic, that come with a magic limitation NB:TtGD.

Not exactly....but close enough. And yes, it may or may (not depending on which of the various rules options the GM chooses to use are in play) have a Limitation as well.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:✦The other difference is that that the skill is canon - while the Proficiency is an optional text R27.

Wouldn't it be better to call it an 'ability' Skill implies it is something that is learned, when there is no such text in the book (unless it has been shadowed recently I guess)

I wouldn't penalize a race, that can't speak and casts magic, with that penalty. They would have developed their magic casting along different lines than humankind did.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:●The Skill of casting w/o speaking does Double the Casting Time. And the skill have to be learned. Taking up a skill slot.
●The Magic Proficiency 'Cast by Though Alone' does not effect the casting time and is a side effect of how the mage learned how to cast magic, that come with a magic limitation NB:TtGD.

✦The other difference is that that the skill is canon - while the Proficiency is an optional text R27.

Yet there are examples where this is not followed in Rifts:
-Ocean Magic has "notes about magic underwater", which puts it at 1 per 15seconds and it uses 3 actions (unless you have 2actions-for-living or other extra actions based on level, skill, or biology you really could not do it), so it doesn't double casting time by thought alone
-Rifts I do think implies an unstated Proficiency/Skill use for various classes and abilities, they may not be actual skill/proficiencies to worry about (either you know it or you don't type thing)
-Mental activation is also an option with Tattoo magic at higher levels, and a chant seems to be optional ("Sometimes a simple chant is used..."-BoM pg229
-Stone Magic has various PPE fuelled abilities that are mentally controlled and activated, IINM that would include their Gem Powers (essentially casting spells), and are not subject to any "skill proficiency" or Level.

So a codified skill/proficiency is not really required, it can be implied, but even then there is no check that has to be made, at least in Rifts, for mental activation of magic, it just has its own set costs.

elikon wrote:Though it is an open question if anyone can do it or just Ocean Wizards, and if it works for all spells or just Ocean Magic.

It doesn't seem to be specific to Ocean Wizards, but rather magic in general when cast underwater and it just happens to be put into the Ocean Magic section (WB7pg63, BoM pg201 has the same text in a different format).

The reason I say it may be only for Ocean Mages/Ocean Magic is that it is in the Ocean Magic section. RUE does not put it in the new magic section. BoM had a chance to make it universal in its clarifications and rule section and it too only has it in the Ocean Magic section....

Making it so that it would seem to me that it is not a universal rule that any[/[] mage can just [i]choose to silently cast if they wish but that it was intended to be much more restrictive than that. I am not saying that is not what the rule has turned into, I am saying that it would seem that was not the intent.

After looking at the books I withdraw the description of 'casting magic w/o words' that is found in both underseas and the RBoM as a skill.
However, chars (other then ocean magic mages and whale singers) should have to discover this ability to cast w/o speaking for themselves during game play.

Also after reading the text doing this casting without speaking takes three times as long based off that the text says it takes up three APM to do. So when combined with the new casting times in RUE a low level spell would take three APM (or 9 sec.) to cast, mid level spells would take 6 APM (or 18-21 sec.) to cast, and high level spells would take 9 APM (or 27-30 sec.) to cast. (Objective time alternates based off the times given in RUE.)
Of course there is the canon text in RUE that says All Invocations have to have a verbal component. So it is up in the air if the UnderSeas/RBoM text about this is still canon.

Compared the the "cast by thought alone" magic Proficiency, that only base time requirement given by RUE.

Note: Magic Proficiencies are canon, even it the specific Proficiency of "Cast by Thought Alone' is optional.
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Proficiencies and Limitations: Ether way I presented the relationship simply I would of taken heat from someone.