The Benefits of Ectoplasm over Telekinesis

[Glistam]

I'm trying to understand what is so great about the Ectoplasm minor psychic power that a psychic would chose to take it over Telekinesis. Anyone have any thoughts in that regard? I read and re-read the psionic description of Ectoplasm and I'm constantly underwhelmed. Am I just missing something?

[Library Ogre]

Rifter 44 had an article I did about Telekinesis and Ectoplasm.

One of the big ones is a sense of touch; Telekinesis doesn't really have it, and requires LOS to operate. Ectoplasm has a sense of touch, and so doesn't necessarily require LOS.

In a lot of ways, it's still a distinctly inferior power, but it does have some real uses, and can add a nice creepy element to a character.

[Axelmania]

Being in a room without any objects to manipulate, maybe? I can punch someone with an ectoplasmic hand (however little it does) but in an empty room you can't TK what isn't present to throw at someone.

[Nekira Sudacne]

There are several advantages.

1: it has fine tacticle sense and manipulation. TK does not. You cannot pick someone's pocket with TK, at all, you can with Ectoplasm
2: it does not require line of sight, making it possible to snake through under doors or through air vents to untie someone or manipulate something. Or again, like with picking pockets, use it to lift something up out of a container you cannot see inside
3: It can be used for distraction purposes in combat. especially in settings or areas where magic is uncommon, the sight of ectoplasm touching you is likely to freak people out, making them waste attacks trying to attack it or simply run rather than looking for you.
4: it can be shaped at will, yet retains physical properties and mass. this makes the power essentially a psychic toolkit. Hammer? Screwdriver? Lever? Wrench? virtually any simple tool can be replicated instantly with Ectoplasm.

[Killer Cyborg]

The powers are used differently, or they should be.
When you want to chuck a rock at somebody without touching it, use TK.
When you want to freak people out at a seance by manifesting a ghostly replica of the dead loved one that the marks gave you a photo of, or you want a phantom arm to appear and try to strangle you so that you can make a show of overcoming the powerful demons that are holding the mark's loved ones' spirits hostage, then you use ectoplasm.

[Mack]

Ectoplasm is also useful if you want to blind an opponent.

[ShadowLogan]

I'm trying to understand what is so great about the Ectoplasm minor psychic power that a psychic would chose to take it over Telekinesis. Anyone have any thoughts in that regard? I read and re-read the psionic description of Ectoplasm and I'm constantly underwhelmed. Am I just missing something?

The two main advantages, mechanically speaking, for Ectoplasm over Telekinesis (non-Super) are Range and Duration. (Though I do have to wonder if you could combine Ectoplasm limb and TK or TK-Punch/Accel-attack for increased range?).

Ectoplasm has double the duration of TK assuming both are taken at the same time. Potentially being more ISP efficient.

Initially TK has a range advantage over Ectoplasm, but as the psychic gains experience the range for Ectoplasm increases while TK remains static. Though again bright light can reduce the range of the Ectoplasm. However heavier loads on TK also see a range reduction. ISP efficiency is also potentially possible when factoring in multiple castings and relocating to get the same range. Basically a well experienced Ectoplasm user (Level 5+) can reach farther than non-Super TK user at any level.

Ectoplasm itself IMHO doesn't come across as being intended primarily as a TK substitute given that it has a PS of 4 with 1:1 carry/lift ratio. Though I suppose given they say it has a PS of 4, a GM could allow it to use the normal PS 1:2 Carry/Lift ratio instead of the 1:1 stated, which would make Ectoplasm potentially more ISP efficient for certain weights in LIFT situation.

Ectoplasm is also theoretically more versatile in what you can do with it. TK is pretty much limited to moving objects (or holding them in a different position). However Ectoplasm can be used to create items:
-which groups can see making it potentially more ISP efficient than using Hypnotic Suggestion if there is a group depending on what you want to suggest (and no pesky Saving Throws to worry about like with HS/ET)
-items should still be visible from beyond the range Ectoplasm can reach, so it can be used to alter assessments if you spot them first or suspect you will be noticed shortly (extra person, different type of person, equipment, etc)
-provide the equivalent of a "wax key" or "skeleton key" for mechanical locks potentially (GM's call, you fill the lock with solid ectoplasm such that it handles all the tumblers properly so that with a twist it unlocks)
-want to create deception when you psychically move an object by leaving hand/foot prints (such as not to lead back to you) so psychic powers are not suspected, or even so it doesn't appear to be the same person doing multiple things
-create "phantom" attacker type deceptions where you need visible evidence
-do some things that require that "substantive touch" that TK lacks to be satisfying (slap the guy from farther than you might normally be able to for example)
-its physical existence might also allow operation of controls that a TK force might not be able to manipulate properly (thus preventing it from working if say a sensor needs to detect both pressure and in the form of a hand print)
-if you saw something, but could not describe it verbally (whatever the reason) you could use Ectoplasm to create a rough (2-D or 3-D) "image", especially useful if you don't have suitable materials to work with (in which case you could probably do it manually w/o using TK)

[eliakon]

Or for the short answer.
You wouldn't take one over the other anymore than you take a TIG welder over a MIG welder.
...they are both tools for doing things, and each one is going to better at some tasks and worse at other tasks than another tool that does a similar-but-not-quite-the-same job.

[Axelmania]

Would it be possible to apply holds or joint locks or entangles or disarms via ectoplasm? My instinct to dismiss their HtH due to low damage could be short-sighted.

Also, if someone had "House of Glass" then could damage be reflected at your ectoplasm instead of you?

[Library Ogre]

Would it be possible to apply holds or joint locks or entangles or disarms via ectoplasm? My instinct to dismiss their HtH due to low damage could be short-sighted.

I would say it would be possible, yes.

Also, if someone had "House of Glass" then could damage be reflected at your ectoplasm instead of you?

Depends. My view of ectoplasm is that it is you, so the question becomes "can they target specific parts with House of Glass", which I would probably disallow.

[ShadowLogan]

Would it be possible to apply holds or joint locks or entangles or disarms via ectoplasm? My instinct to dismiss their HtH due to low damage could be short-sighted.

I would say it would be possible, yes.

I agree it would be possible, though I'm not sure about effectiveness.

Solid state Ectoplasm has a PS of 4, which might make it easy to breakout/ignore these options. I mean is someone with a PS of 4 and only able to do 1 point of damage in HTH, really going to reasonably be able to disarm or entangle someone with a PS of 10 or more? Or even produce a hold/joint lock since their strength would allow them to resist easily (yes I know its by PP attribute, speaking of which).

The ectoplasm doesn't really have a PP score provided either (I can't see using the Psychic's for this), so the defender/target would appear to have a potential advantage in the way the mechanics work. Unless they "trained" to, I'm not sure if I'd allow HTH bonuses for holds to apply either when making the action.

Also, if someone had "House of Glass" then could damage be reflected at your ectoplasm instead of you?

as Mark saids, it depends. Though in my case, I'd apply damage to the same location if possible. So unless your ectoplasm (and you aren't an ecto-being) is targeted, I don't see House of Glass reflecting damage to another's ectoplasm if it isn't deployed.

[Axelmania]

Given that even people with PS3 could still perform these moves in Ninjas and Superspies, I don't see any reason to limit them here. Any GM rulings which incorporate PS concerns into these moves would of course be limited for Ecto as they would be for a weak person.

I agree no PP bonuses (giving an advantage to using your real limbs for people with high PP scores).

Whether HtH skills apply to ectoplasm is something I'm not sure about. On one hand, they are hands, but on the other hand, they're temporarily created hands and not your real ones.

Maybe it could be like space combat where you could in theory use HtH skills with ectoplasm but you would need to buy them a second time to reflect the additional training, and during that training period you would need to constantly be using the power and drained of ISP.

[Library Ogre]

I would be more inclined to treat them like a proficiency... rather than needing to buy your HTH again, you just buy the "weapon kata" that lets you do it with Ectoplasm.

[ShadowLogan]

Mark I don't see much difference in treating it like a proficiency over a second (non-stacking) HTH style unless one seeks to create "grades" of proficiency (like Basic, Expert, Assassin, etc) from a skill cost perspective they would work out to being 1 slot each (again assuming no upgrade path, or the skill type slot spent doesn't have an impact).

[Library Ogre]

Mark I don't see much difference in treating it like a proficiency over a second (non-stacking) HTH style unless one seeks to create "grades" of proficiency (like Basic, Expert, Assassin, etc) from a skill cost perspective they would work out to being 1 slot each (again assuming no upgrade path, or the skill type slot spent doesn't have an impact).

It depends on the cost you're assigning hand to hand skills. In many cases, HtH Martial Arts costs 2-3 skills. Codifying it as a proficiency helps to clarify that it is a single skill slot, and not "Well, sure, you learned Hand to Hand Martial Arts, but what about Ectoplasm to Hand Martial Arts? That's six skills, total, buddy."