Powers that Be....What, Exactly?

[Alrik Vas]

Palladium has mentioned Powers that Be from time to time in various books. Generally in regards to what stands in the way of all the terrible things in the Megaverse from taking over Rifts earth.

What are they, and why are they a worry for Hades, Splugorth, etc?

[HWalsh]

Palladium has mentioned Powers that Be from time to time in various books. Generally in regards to what stands in the way of all the terrible things in the Megaverse from taking over Rifts earth.

What are they, and why are they a worry for Hades, Splugorth, etc?

We don't know.

We assume that this is some kind of massive, mega-all-powerful group that can bring to bear unimaginable power. I always assume that this is literally the counter-force for Evil. Namely this is the "good" powers in the Universe who, for whatever reason, choose not to get involved.

[Alrik Vas]

Not a fan of that theory, which means it might be correct.

[glitterboy2098]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_power ... 8phrase%29

"In idiomatic English, "the powers that be" (sometimes initialized as TPTB) is a phrase used to refer to those individuals or groups who collectively hold authority over a particular domain."

for rifts earth:

every pantheon with a history or interest in the world (Norse, Celtic, Greek/roman, hindu, Persian, egyptian, aztec, Incan, Chinese, japanese, etc..)
the naruni
Cibola
Hades
Dyval
The True Atlantean Clans
The Yama Kings
Vampire intelligence
etc.

note that the concept does not require TPTB to be unified or even have the same goals and plans. just that they have power and interest in a given area. in the case of rifts earth, it has attracted a lot of attention because of it's dimensional crossroads nature and high ambient magic levels. even those groups that have little interest in taking over the earth themselves usually would prefer to prevent any of the others from gaining control of it, which would usually result in that other group causing big issues elsewhere in the megaverse, including places that are more vital to the rest.

the end result is a situation similar to the uneasy balance of "great powers" prior to WW1, where everyone was vying for political and territorial advantage while trying to avoid outright war.

what would be interesting is whether the massive invasions of earth by Hades and Dyval serve to trigger a megaversal war the way the conflict between austria and serbia triggered WW1, or the german annexations of it's neighbors triggered WW2..

[Glistam]

I assumed it was similar to (or maybe exactly the same as) the beings actively working to keep the Old Ones asleep.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

It basically refers to any of the extremely powerful entities that might have an interest in Earth, including various pantheons, alien intelligences, transdimensional power bloc's (like Naruni), etc.

Not all of them are even capable of taking Earth in its entirety, but they all have an interest in making sure no one else has the whole planet, either. Splynncryth could probably accomplish an outright take over, but then he'd have a (literally) endless war on his hands as the other factions tried to pry it away from him - so he doesn't bother. He's content to get the benefits of having Atlantis, and is just as interested in keeping any other party from conquering the whole shebang, too. (So he would be considered one of the "Powers that be" - as would other Splugorth).

[Alrik Vas]

That was the purpose of my inquiry, essentially. The interesting thing is that all of those beings rely on similar methods to do what they do. If someone can control access like they do on phase world earth would be even more lucrative...possibly.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

That was the purpose of my inquiry, essentially. The interesting thing is that all of those beings rely on similar methods to do what they do. If someone can control access like they do on phase world earth would be even more lucrative...possibly.

Right, which is why no one faction will let others have total control.

They dont want Earth to be the next Phase World - they want it to remain open for everyone to use.

[Shark_Force]

honestly, i suspect splynncryth is probably one of them.

really, what does he stand to gain from having the entire planet? nothing but a massive requirement for security forces to cover every single inch of it. on the other hand, making sure nobody else is allowed to keep him off the planet, that sounds pretty handy. i mean, you can't plausibly keep him off the place without controlling the entire thing, so as long as nobody is allowed to do that, he gets to control an area far larger than the phase world market... as in, large enough that he has room to spare, even... all the profit, much lower cost.

[wyrmraker]

My theory is that the so-called Powers That Be are actually the Palladium writers.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Well the implication in the books is that the megaversal powers that be, -are- something... "On the next level up" From anything in the books. Beings/empires of such power that they could, at will, destroy anyone -detailed in the books- with out trouble.

You don't behave if someone is wagging a stick at you, unless you're scared of that stick. The 'Powers that be" have a stick big enough to cow a being that's got literal planets (Plural) Under their control, and in the case of the Naurni, multi dimensional arms dealers that routinely REPO ENTIRE PLANETS... are still cowed and kept under the thumb of the unnamed powers that be.

So what ever it/they is/are, they are big enough to cowl a company that repos entire planets when the mood hits them, and do so, so effortlessly that noone's stood up against them to 'Take' the earth, even with how political and strategic it would be to do so.

So no. It's nothing 'on earth'. It's Something the next level up the power ladder. Thus so big and powerful, that to Stat it out, would invalidate it.

Remember.. "If it bleeds, we can kill it"

In RPG's "If it has STATS, we can kill it"

Adding stats to big bads is the worst thing you can do. Heck I can take out THOR with a few platoons of lvl 1 CS troops if I try hard. These things (The megaversal powers) Don't have stats, and if Palladium ever gives them stats, it'll be silly. There's only two ways it could go. 1) The stats would be like the palladium 'gods'. Look impressive at first glance but then someone would go "Well with two battle ships I can kill that in 5 melee's.. Or... 2) be SOOOOOOOOOOOOO ungodly as to look stupid.

"This, "Power that is" Has 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 MDC and regenerates 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 per action, with out it taking an action and it gets 100,000 attacks per melee. (Yes per melee)..... bla bla bla.

So if they're smart they won't ever name or flesh them out as the only thing it could possibly do is weaken them.

They're "As sstrong as they need to be, to keep the players in check"

Boom. Done.

[Genhuman]

The powers that be; A turn of phrase that basically means the authorities over.....etc. Since Glitterboy2098 already posted the definition, I won't go into it again.

While it would be an interesting thought exercise to go and say, Hey, what if "The Powers That Be" was an actual entity(ies) and go from there, that is all it would be, a thought exercise. It would be the equivalent of asking, How far can the Eye of the Storm see, or how fast does the Heart of the Ocean beat, or what size sneaker does the Foot of the Mountain wear?

I have never felt the books implied that it was anything other than a turn of phrase.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Well the implication in the books is that the megaversal powers that be, -are- something... "On the next level up" From anything in the books. Beings/empires of such power that they could, at will, destroy anyone -detailed in the books- with out trouble.

You don't behave if someone is wagging a stick at you, unless you're scared of that stick. The 'Powers that be" have a stick big enough to cow a being that's got literal planets (Plural) Under their control, and in the case of the Naurni, multi dimensional arms dealers that routinely REPO ENTIRE PLANETS... are still cowed and kept under the thumb of the unnamed powers that be.

So what ever it/they is/are, they are big enough to cowl a company that repos entire planets when the mood hits them, and do so, so effortlessly that noone's stood up against them to 'Take' the earth, even with how political and strategic it would be to do so.

So no. It's nothing 'on earth'. It's Something the next level up the power ladder. Thus so big and powerful, that to Stat it out, would invalidate it.

Remember.. "If it bleeds, we can kill it"

In RPG's "If it has STATS, we can kill it"

Adding stats to big bads is the worst thing you can do. Heck I can take out THOR with a few platoons of lvl 1 CS troops if I try hard. These things (The megaversal powers) Don't have stats, and if Palladium ever gives them stats, it'll be silly. There's only two ways it could go. 1) The stats would be like the palladium 'gods'. Look impressive at first glance but then someone would go "Well with two battle ships I can kill that in 5 melee's.. Or... 2) be SOOOOOOOOOOOOO ungodly as to look stupid.

"This, "Power that is" Has 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 MDC and regenerates 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 per action, with out it taking an action and it gets 100,000 attacks per melee. (Yes per melee)..... bla bla bla.

So if they're smart they won't ever name or flesh them out as the only thing it could possibly do is weaken them.

They're "As sstrong as they need to be, to keep the players in check"

Boom. Done.

In this case i dont think it needs to be that extreme, really.

It's already fairly well covered that several interstellar agencies (like Spynncryth or another Splugorth) COULD easily conquer the planet. But then they would have to fight a literally never ending constant war against every OTHER faction with an interest in using Earth as a transdimensional stopover/gateway. Just not worth it. Naruni, likely the same. Its not profitable.

In this case, the 'Powers That Be' really only have to be on the level of the Splugorth/Naruni/Pantheons/et al - any of whom COULD take over the planet but for which there would be more cost than benefit, so as long as no one tries to grab off the whole thing, everyone is content with the status quo.

[taalismn]

[

It's already fairly well covered that several interstellar agencies (like Spynncryth or another Splugorth) COULD easily conquer the planet. But then they would have to fight a literally never ending constant war against every OTHER faction with an interest in using Earth as a transdimensional stopover/gateway. Just not worth it. Naruni, likely the same. Its not profitable.

In this case, the 'Powers That Be' really only have to be on the level of the Splugorth/Naruni/Pantheons/et al - any of whom COULD take over the planet but for which there would be more cost than benefit, so as long as no one tries to grab off the whole thing, everyone is content with the status quo.

And any dumb#### who tries it for real(taking over the world) will get dogpiled by the other factions...even if the form of the dogpile is "Splynncryth writes out big honking checks to hire enough cannonfodder to cut the vampires back down to size'.
The problem is, if critters like the Lord of the Deep and of course the Four Horsemen don't read the memo or listen to whatever passes for a gentleman's agreement amongst monstrous power-blocs, raise trouble...

[glitterboy2098]

[

It's already fairly well covered that several interstellar agencies (like Spynncryth or another Splugorth) COULD easily conquer the planet. But then they would have to fight a literally never ending constant war against every OTHER faction with an interest in using Earth as a transdimensional stopover/gateway. Just not worth it. Naruni, likely the same. Its not profitable.

In this case, the 'Powers That Be' really only have to be on the level of the Splugorth/Naruni/Pantheons/et al - any of whom COULD take over the planet but for which there would be more cost than benefit, so as long as no one tries to grab off the whole thing, everyone is content with the status quo.

And any dumb#### who tries it for real(taking over the world) will get dogpiled by the other factions...even if the form of the dogpile is "Splynncryth writes out big honking checks to hire enough cannonfodder to cut the vampires back down to size'.
The problem is, if critters like the Lord of the Deep and of course the Four Horsemen don't read the memo or listen to whatever passes for a gentleman's agreement amongst monstrous power-blocs, raise trouble...

isn't this literally what i posted above, only mine was with more specific detail and with real world examples of similar political dynamics?

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

[

It's already fairly well covered that several interstellar agencies (like Spynncryth or another Splugorth) COULD easily conquer the planet. But then they would have to fight a literally never ending constant war against every OTHER faction with an interest in using Earth as a transdimensional stopover/gateway. Just not worth it. Naruni, likely the same. Its not profitable.

In this case, the 'Powers That Be' really only have to be on the level of the Splugorth/Naruni/Pantheons/et al - any of whom COULD take over the planet but for which there would be more cost than benefit, so as long as no one tries to grab off the whole thing, everyone is content with the status quo.

And any dumb#### who tries it for real(taking over the world) will get dogpiled by the other factions...even if the form of the dogpile is "Splynncryth writes out big honking checks to hire enough cannonfodder to cut the vampires back down to size'.
The problem is, if critters like the Lord of the Deep and of course the Four Horsemen don't read the memo or listen to whatever passes for a gentleman's agreement amongst monstrous power-blocs, raise trouble...

Old Splynnie wouldn't really need to write checks. He's got Billions (with a B) of Kydians under arms (and that's conservative, as the Kydians breed in litters and rapidly mature at age 14, and were noted has having "tens of trillions" on their planets - Splynncryth owns at least two Kydian planets) and Millions upon millions of Kittani, Altara, Tatooed Men, etc. as well.

He MIGHT decide to intervene if something got out of hand; he'd also be VERY clear to the other powers that he has no intention of holding the planet and would likely immediately withdraw his forces once said upstarts were put down. As was said, he's got a good deal going and sees no point in fighting a never ending war over the whole planet when he doesnt need more than Atlantis.

[Alrik Vas]

I see Splynny being content...but only as long as no one else shows weakness. Honestly, you don't make that much money or have that much success by letting opportunity pass by.

[taalismn]

I see Splynny being content...but only as long as no one else shows weakness. Honestly, you don't make that much money or have that much success by letting opportunity pass by.

Or making opportunity...several billion minions is some serious opportunity-opening power.

[Shark_Force]

here's the thing: it would be relatively easy for any number of people to *take* earth (that is, defeat the individual powers currently controlling territory in various locations, and at least force them to retreat). but that is not the same thing as holding the entire thing.

essentially, you have a bunch of people where none of them can control the whole thing without costing more than it's worth, and none of them want anyone else to take the whole thing (because it's worth it for themselves to control a part), so they all enter into an agreement: if any one of them gets uppity, all the others combine to put them back in their place. splynncryth may not be particularly happy with the other megaversal forces that have outposts on rifts earth, but he's happier sharing it with all of them than he is with constant invasions and counterinvasions to hold on to the small part he's got. likewise with everyone else.

[Axelmania]

To Splynncryth TPTB could be rival Splugorth, Naruni, or Hades. You don't necessarily need new entities when the existing ones are already.rivals.

If you do then Pantheons covers plenty.

[HWalsh]

I would actually, for once, see a book focused on the bad guys crapping bricks as a good entity or entities made a play.

Since the CS is supposed to be a player faction let something actually legitimately scare them.

Since people play evil alignments, what happens when Evil characters come face-to-face with something Good?

We see all of the evil powers-that-be, where are their counterparts?

[Axelmania]

I consider the CS one of the good powers and Naruni/Tolkeen some of the bad ones so it feels like that happened. Gathering of Heroes also supposedly took out the 4 Horsemen.

A book on TGE suffering losses to its Resistance would be a nice balance to.CCW getting overrun with Dyvalian troops.

[Proseksword]

I would actually, for once, see a book focused on the bad guys crapping bricks as a good entity or entities made a play.

Since the CS is supposed to be a player faction let something actually legitimately scare them.

Since people play evil alignments, what happens when Evil characters come face-to-face with something Good?

We see all of the evil powers-that-be, where are their counterparts?

This is one of my biggest beefs with RIFTs as a setting. There seems to be an infinite supply of different shades of evil coming to devour humanity and the universe at large, but where are the good entities? We're told in various places that such powers exist, but by and large they have never been described in detail, let alone fleshed out. How come I have stats for hundreds of different kinds of demons, but only 4 spirits of light?

[Wise_Owl]

A Good Comparison might be late 19th century China;

After the Opium Wars, and than the Taiping Rebellion(in which a Religious Fanatic basically controlled a quarter of the country), it was clear that the Qing Dynasty was in dire trouble and basically unable to police itself, let alone stop a potential colonial power. The Problem was that China was a huge polity, and that it would be just as hard for any particular country to manage it as it was for the Qing. Thus there was an 'unspoken agreement' between the British, Americans, Germans, French, Dutch and other Colonial Powers that you could get a small concession region(like Hong Kong for the British, or Tianjin and Germany, etc.) but that any broad agreements should apply to everyone(the unequal treaties) and that nobody would 'go for the prize'. Everyone was held in check because they knew if they tried, they'd be bogged down in a conflict they would have to focus all their enegy on to win, and that the other powers could undermine them.

Rifts Earth is similar; There are too many power players in the game, too many massive dimension crossing entities for anybody to gain and hold the whole planet. It's value is too great, and it's too hard to hold something where your opponents can rift in at any moment.

[HWalsh]

I consider the CS one of the good powers and Naruni/Tolkeen some of the bad ones so it feels like that happened. Gathering of Heroes also supposedly took out the 4 Horsemen.

A book on TGE suffering losses to its Resistance would be a nice balance to.CCW getting overrun with Dyvalian troops.

Uh... Okay. The CS is not one of the "good powers" because they are the Nazis of Rifts. They are evil. Tolkeen was good. Naruni is neutral, but has some really, really, cut throat practices that make them seem evil sometime.

Now, explain to me how Tolkeen was "evil" considering they never attacked the CS before the CS attacked them, without provocation, and for no reason.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Really? You want to get into this again?

Tolkeen went evil head first like a rocket.

Not the least of which was breaking entire armies of demons out of demon prison. Demons so bad other demons locked them up, and tolkeen broke them out to fight for them and even enhanced those demons with technowizard things....

Seriously have you read the SoT books? It's extreamly clear. That while tolkeen may have started out "Good' that long before the CS ever 'Came over the hill' they'd gone willingly evil in a huge drramatic way. They CHOOSE evil.

As for the "With out provocation and for no reason" The CS thought Tolkeen was evil and conspiring with evil entites and stuff... well. They were. *points up*

Towards the end tolkeens forces were even killing and eating cyberknights and stuff on their own team when the CK's would try and stop the evil on tolkeen's side.

[Shark_Force]

the daemonix weren't locked up for being too evil.

they were locked up for sucking.

of course, the main point still stands: tolkeen may not have been evil initially, but by the time the siege on tolkeen came about, well, i wouldn't describe most of them as evil, but the ones that decided to form an alliance with demons, well... you don't do that if you're principled, let's put it that way. and since the daemonix by all appearances basically weren't used at all until the sorcerer's revenge (at which point many people stopped helping tolkeen), it's fairly plausible that at least many people either didn't know or didn't understand who they were allied with.

(also, you don't ally with demons if you're smart, because seriously... demons. everyone in existence, including demons, know better than to actually treat demons as a friend, or give them *any* amount of free rein, because they are pretty much guaranteed to at least try to screw you).

on the other hand, the point also still stands about the CS: they're not the good guys. they are either murdering innocent creatures out of fear and unwillingness to find out what the actual threats are (sorry, that can land you in a pretty solid "anarchist" alignment, maybe even unprincipled, but not principled or scrupulous which are the good alignments), or they are complicit in those acts. they are certainly not the most evil things around, but no, they aren't good either.

[Axelmania]

Not a huge risk using the stupid species of demon but they aren't the best independent ages so mages often gamble with the intelligent ones.

The CS.do locate.real threats. Innocents do sometimes die in war, happens in all conflicts due to fog.

[Shark_Force]

how do you figure it isn't a risk to use the stupid demons?

they are still demons. they still don't care if you die. they're perfectly happy to torture you to death if given half a chance, they don't care about your friends, they don't care about your goals, they will turn on you the second you show any signs of weakness, and also, they aren't housebroken. but seriously, smart or not, they still love to murder and torture. they derive pleasure from the suffering of others. they consider you to be a lesser creature, and the only reason they might consider keeping you alive is to either extend your suffering or because they think you might make a useful slave.

if you are not a total idiot, you don't ally yourself with demons. you might *use* them, for example by sending them up against a superior force to fill the role of bullet sponge. you might even consider keeping some around under constant supervision as bodyguards if you are completely evil yourself. but even the more powerful demons don't trust their underlings to do as they're told unless under constant and imminent threat of death, and are not stupid enough to keep them as equal partners, allies, or friends.

as to the CS killing real threats... well yeah. when you kill everything in an area indiscriminately, you're bound to get some bad people as well as good people. but if you're not even trying to avoid killing innocents, and you feel no remorse for the accidents that do happen in spite of your best efforts, then no, you are not good.

[glitterboy2098]

"Any wizard bright enough to survive for five minutes was also bright enough to realise that if there was any power in demonology, then it lay with the demons. Using it for your own purposes would be like trying to beat mice to death with a rattlesnake."
- Faust Eric, Terry Pratchett

[Shark_Force]

"Any wizard bright enough to survive for five minutes was also bright enough to realise that if there was any power in demonology, then it lay with the demons. Using it for your own purposes would be like trying to beat mice to death with a rattlesnake."
- Faust Eric, Terry Pratchett

exactly. only an idiot would trust a demon. which is why it boggles the mind that this is the path tolkeen went down.

necromancy i could have totally understood. imagine if every time they killed a CS soldier, they got to add a new mummy to carry an ironwood shield in front of their proper troops (manufactured shields using a TW factory) and lobbing stockpiled fire orbs, or a new zombie to activate talismans and scrolls. still evil, still warps their minds, but i mean, you can at least *trust* a zombie or mummy to do what you order it to do. you can even dress them up in broken CS armour for minimal protection, and heck, the undead are immune to a lot of stuff the CS could do.

but demons, man. what idiot turns to demons for help? boggles the mind.

[flatline]

The "powers that be" is a tool for lazy writers who don't want to bother to create a setting that resembles some sort of dynamic equilibrium. Since there's no reason for the equilibrium shown in the books, the lazy writers imply that some as yet undefined force or set of forces exist that has an interest in preserving said equilibrium.

Lazy. Writing.

As GM, it's up to you to correct the resulting gaps in the setting. At least enough to be able to run your game.

--flatline

[HWalsh]

Remember, for everyone bashing the Daemonix, they loved the mages of Tolkeen. They actually did care about them. They were totally loyal and willing to die for Tolkeen.

They were the lowest, crappiest, rung of demons who were imprisoned by other demons for being weak. They were freed by Tolkeen. Then Tolkeen realized they were abused, and enslaved, by other demons and said:

"Hey, you don't have to, but... We are facing an evil kingdom who wants to kill us all. We'd like to ask for your help. We're willing to respect your decision though."

And the Daemonix, who were always belittled, mocked, beaten, and enslaved were touched that someone would "ask" them and "respect" them that they became 100% dedicated to protecting Tolkeen and her people.

Tolkeen literally woo'ed thousands of demons through the power of politeness and respect.

[eliakon]

The "powers that be" is a tool for lazy writers who don't want to bother to create a setting that resembles some sort of dynamic equilibrium. Since there's no reason for the equilibrium shown in the books, the lazy writers imply that some as yet undefined force or set of forces exist that has an interest in preserving said equilibrium.

Lazy. Writing.

As GM, it's up to you to correct the resulting gaps in the setting. At least enough to be able to run your game.

--flatline

Or it is "everyone else besides the person being talked about that has an interest"
I.e. when discussing a topic instead of spelling out every single nation, corporation, organization, military, agency, entity, religion, pantheon, et multiple cetera that might possibly have both an opinion and influence on the matter the normal grammatical convention is to refer to them collectively as "the powers that be".
If you are talking with a co-worker about if your project will be spun off from the team your with to a different team, you don't have to say "Of course this is up to the team leaders, the following 19 project managers, all 7 vice presidents, the CFO, CEO, board of directors, the following 87 regulatory agencies in the following 11 countries involved, and the stock holders..." You just say "The decision of course is up to the powers that be". Unless your writing a cited academic paper on the decision process most people don't expect you to be able to list off every person that may have an influence on a major decision...or care to hear you recite all of them (since in the final analysis it can often run to hundreds of names)
This is especially true in something like a game world where the list is ever changing. For example while both the Yama Kings and the Cosmo Knights would take action if an Alien Intelligence tried to take over the entire Earth... Until those books were published they were not citable, and an extensive list of everyone that would care about a decision couldn't include them... even though they would count now, and retroactively they would have counted then.

[eliakon]

Tolkeen is a good example of some great adages like when facing a monster not to become a monster yourself.
Tolkeen was terrified, for good reason, that the CS was going to come in and kill every man, woman and child in the nation for the crime of existing. The problem was that in their desperation for ways to protect them selves from the oncoming evil, they themselves turned to evil. By the time of the Siege of Tolkeen it was a battle of Evil vs Evil. Which frankly to me is one of the reasons that no one really cared about the conflict. There were no heroes to root for, no good guys...just a choice of evil villains (ranging from minor evil up to dueling Major Evils) to pick from fighting a pointless battle with a pre-ordained outcome that only lasted as long as it did because of random stuff that showed up with no forewarning. Even though it was touted as an adventure material source the battles were already fought, the outcome ordained, and the major events had the feel of getting to be supporting cast to other peoples adventures.

[Shark_Force]

Remember, for everyone bashing the Daemonix, they loved the mages of Tolkeen. They actually did care about them. They were totally loyal and willing to die for Tolkeen.

They were the lowest, crappiest, rung of demons who were imprisoned by other demons for being weak. They were freed by Tolkeen. Then Tolkeen realized they were abused, and enslaved, by other demons and said:

"Hey, you don't have to, but... We are facing an evil kingdom who wants to kill us all. We'd like to ask for your help. We're willing to respect your decision though."

And the Daemonix, who were always belittled, mocked, beaten, and enslaved were touched that someone would "ask" them and "respect" them that they became 100% dedicated to protecting Tolkeen and her people.

Tolkeen literally woo'ed thousands of demons through the power of politeness and respect.

honestly, i'm not at all sold on that. the very first time they were used, they basically just murdered, tortured, and ate basically anyone in the area. oh, they pretty much prioritized the CS troops, but it took basically no persuading to add "people who tried to make them stop" and then moved right on to whoever.

still, i have to admit, they lasted something like 3 years before they just started being demons. that's actually a remarkable track record. i'm surprised they lasted as long as they did. it doesn't make it any less inevitable that they would eventually, well... be demons.

[Axelmania]

how do you figure it isn't a risk to use the stupid demons?

I said not a HUGE risk. As in you can manage it, outthink them. You can strap an emergency fusion block to their back as a contingency and they won't be able to seduce the local demolitions expert into disarming it for them.

They are most just grungy bullet sponges and laborers though, yes. Risk and Utility/Versatility tend to go hand in hand.