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So, ok, what kinds of resources are there on Rifts Earth, how do you think they are extracted, and what could pose serious scarcity problems for different kinds of economies?

We're pretty sure the CS has good food resources; Lone Star implies that they've got good GMO cattle stock, and I wouldn't be surprised if they likewise had good GMO sheep and GMO chicken stocks, as well. They control Missouri, Iowa, and a good chunk of Illinois and Arkansas, give them a good amount of farmland, as well (the sections of Texas they control aren't great farmland).

There's also forest resources; with a few hundred years to grow back, and a goodly dose of nutrient-rich ash from volcanic eruptions, there should be good wood stocks that can be cleared and managed fairly easily. I could see the CS being big in using psi-druids for things like this, actually... forestry management.

Industrial resources, though, get a bit more interesting. I think a large part of their industrial base has to come from reclamation... going into cities, stripping them bare, and putting the output into new construction. Rip up roads for the concrete and rebar; tear down buildings. Given the prevalence of ceramics, I think there needs to be processes in place to manufacture such ceramics from relatively fragile materials.

Given we know golden age stuff had nano tech it is very likely they have highly efficient recycling capabilities. A lot of their "mining" likely was harvesting stuff from wrecked cities/towns. If one has efficient enough recycling capabilities old chicago likely was a gold mine for many years for chitown as likely would be the ruins of milwaukee.

With good enough tech they likely could even mine previously "mined out" areas as we see in modern day as tech progresses often times it pays to go over old claims again and get the stuff the older techniques simply could not.

I also think this probably is a major reason for the agreements with NG and ishpiming may be resource related as well. There is a reason so many towns in the UP have names like iron river and copper harbor and things like that. There are a large number of very useful metal deposits up there some are getting "played out" but with the right tech those could easily produce enormous amounts of copper again.

The push into tolkeen opens the Dakotas with major mineral deposts and if they can push the xiticix out of upper MN there are HUGE iron deposits just north of duluth.

A lot of the MDC armor is said to be light weight MDC ceramics so a lot of the base materials for that sort of thing should in theory be pretty common but it is unknown what kind of doping/treatments it needs to attain that level of hardness and that may require some highly specialized stuff.

As far as crops/animals lone star makes it pretty clear that the CS is utilizing knowledge and techniques and very likely blue prints for tailor made livestock/crops for maximum yield/hardiness/weed resistance. Not having to worry about using pesticides would be a gigantic boost to productivity on a farm especially one in an area you may simply not be able to get/produce pesticides in high enough quantities. I imagine inside the fortress cities they have a lot of hydroponics type stuff as they seem to be designed to be archologies and that kind of design by its nature tries to be as self contained and self sufficient as possible.

For things inside the fortress cities once stuff enters circulation it likely can be continually recycled/reused many times so once you get raw resources at least the internally used stuff can make highly efficient long term use of it. The issue though is making war machines and losing them in the field that is likely their biggest sump in resources and why post battle scavenging would be pretty important.

My handwavium was rifted subterranean regions of alien/d-bee geology, especially around cities(where there were massive death-PPE events)...some of the transplanted strata yielding 'renewed' ore beds.
Then, of course, there comes to mind the old Robin Williams' Mork and Mindy line about future people drilling in graveyards for oil, but in this case old landfills would be possible sources of recoverable materials.

Given what we used to throw away and what even current day recycling tech could recover that used to be thrown out finding old landfills/scrap yards likely are paydirt for highly advanced mining tech.

Good point about excavating landfills for materials, certainly. I don't know if they have quite the romance of excavating a ruined city, but I could certainly see it being done.

The problem with landfills, though, is whether, during the Golden Age, advanced plasma technology or advanced recycling technology got to any of them first. A major landfill near Hartford, for example, that they closed and converted into a 'Mount Trashmore' grassed-over mountain, was, at one time, considered for reduction using new trash-to-energy plasma torch/incineration technology. Currently it's serving as an elevation for a suburban solar cell farm. Depending on how attached folks of the Golden Age get to their mounded over landfills and how 'green' urban planners go, dumps may be mined even sooner. However, industrial nanotech may up the economic viability of shifting ever-increasingly sparse landfill sites for recoverable materials.
Given the proximity of a number of older landfills to urban areas(NYC, Boston, to name a few), mining them could be seen as an extension of the nearby urban drilling ops, so you're still getting a two-fer.

Which would just mean that those are no longer landfills to go after anymore...
...but we also know that 'mega age' civilizations are also just as wasteful... *points to the trash dimension* between that and various other issues it is unlikely that every old landfill, waste dump and storage site was recycled. Some of them sure... but not all of them. it was a "golden age' not Utopia.

eliakon wrote:Which would just mean that those are no longer landfills to go after anymore...
...but we also know that 'mega age' civilizations are also just as wasteful... *points to the trash dimension* between that and various other issues it is unlikely that every old landfill, waste dump and storage site was recycled. Some of them sure... but not all of them. it was a "golden age' not Utopia.

Indeed...the cheap energy offered by Golden Age 'nuclear' power and advanced solar collection systems, quick on-demand manufacturing by computerized mini-facs, advanced new materials, increasingly cheap space travel(and the promise of more resources available from space), and genetic engineering likely led not to a more responsible 'take only what you will need/use long-term', but a boom in effectively splurge buying, and extravagances, many of which only lasted in peoples' attentions for a decade or so before being sent off to await being recycled, or dumped to await some sort of exchange or resale. And if the ecology suffered? Robotic clean-up and gene-tailored bioremediation to the rescue.

Alot of the points have already been hit on but I'll round them up.

1: Yes, Lone Stark book states with out any doubt that the CS used advanced genetics in their food sources. Be it perfected quick growing meat sources that produce more meat, on less feed, in less time that tastes better (Genetically engineered super cows, straight from the book) To as someone else said above. Genetically perfected crops that resist weeds, and predation by insects and stuff, and produce greater yeilds, faster with fewer resources.

HoH mentions giant underground crop sources too.

All that said it's mentioned in HoH that the Tolkeen war was NOT all about magic users being a threat, but the fact the CS wanted to press westward, into the Territory that Tolkeen held and then the land west of that for food source, be it crops or live stock growing.

ALL that said, the CS is running low on food, and need more.

As a non CS point of fact, (As the OP was "on rifts earth" not 'Just the CS" it's noted also in HoH that if the CS didn't keep their food whoe's secret they could get help from a number of places. The Lumerians for example could feed all the CS with almost no effort what so ever, with a combination of their VAST undersea food sources, or through Biomancy.

2: Mineral acquisition. A: Conventional mining is still a thing. It's also mentioned in HoH in the section about their resource problems. The CS mines like anyone else. Also they have bee nmining HUGE amounts of silver for the minion wars (And other supernatural threats) Every CS troop is getting at least one if not more silver weapons.
So .. conventional mining is a thing.
B: as someone mentioned above as their personal hand wavium, it's in the books.... SOMEwhere.. (and I have no idea where) But it's in the books some where abolut D-shifting... where dimensions super impose and suddenly a chunk of another dimension is now on Rifts earth. It's mentioned somewhere that advanced nations know this and have special long range teams that go out and look for it. If you find... a mile of ground that dimensionally shifted from.. "The Steel dimension" or "The Copper planet" or "The diamond universe" it's a trove of minieral deposits. We know from one of the books that "our" Rocky mountains D-shifted off earth and the mountains that are there in thier place are completely different. That was an entire mountain range. So... it (DShifting) can happen on a large scale. We know that the nations go out looking far and wide, as that's exactly how the "Lone Star Complex" was found. A CS Survey team way way out side the borders of the CS found it by accident.

As pointed out, forests would be largely regrown in the last 300 years, so wood wouldn't be a problem. Also.. ciricling back around to Lone star, if you need quick growing trees the CS can do that too. The NGR doesn't talk tons about their genetics or such but their science is a few decades in advance of the CS so what the CS can do you can figure the NGR can do better (and Japan alot better)

I wouldn't think that mining old cities would be that great an investment, compaired to information mining in the old cities. Information on things being worth many times more than the old rusted out crap you're going to find in cities (As far as resources go)

Combine the above with advanced recycling technique and you're doing pretty good in tech advanced nations.

Once out side those, though.. whoo. Nose dive. You're talking about mud towns and such once out side the tech cities and scavaging and what not. The Tech "Drop off' is dramatic in Rifts.

You're either tooling around with Laser rifles, and hockey puck sized nuclear reactors... or.... You're living in a hut with a sharp stick. there's not tons 'In between'.

taalismn wrote:The problem with landfills, though, is whether, during the Golden Age, advanced plasma technology or advanced recycling technology got to any of them first. A major landfill near Hartford, for example, that they closed and converted into a 'Mount Trashmore' grassed-over mountain, was, at one time, considered for reduction using new trash-to-energy plasma torch/incineration technology. Currently it's serving as an elevation for a suburban solar cell farm. Depending on how attached folks of the Golden Age get to their mounded over landfills and how 'green' urban planners go, dumps may be mined even sooner. However, industrial nanotech may up the economic viability of shifting ever-increasingly sparse landfill sites for recoverable materials.
Given the proximity of a number of older landfills to urban areas(NYC, Boston, to name a few), mining them could be seen as an extension of the nearby urban drilling ops, so you're still getting a two-fer.

on the otherhand, Landfills nowadays tend to be turned into useful properties (golf courses, parks, housing development, etc) fairly quick after they are filled up and finally covered over. given that Chaos Earth claims that urban sprawl got pretty bad, odds are that no one would want to tear up an existing neighborhood just to strip mine the hills underneath of some old plastic and metal.

it seems likely that landfills that were still being filled when the tech came around got dug up, and they started burning and recycling trash rather than bury it. but that old landfills that had already been filled and re-purposed got left alone. this would mean that some areas would have untapped resources below the old ruins.

Mark Hall wrote:how do you think they are extracted

In the CS and other tech nations, Mining Borg OCC.

In magic ones, Earth Elementals.

Axelmania wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:how do you think they are extracted

In the CS and other tech nations, Mining Borg OCC.

In magic ones, Earth Elementals.

And every shade of slave labor and automation in between.

taalismn wrote:The problem with landfills, though, is whether, during the Golden Age, advanced plasma technology or advanced recycling technology got to any of them first. A major landfill near Hartford, for example, that they closed and converted into a 'Mount Trashmore' grassed-over mountain, was, at one time, considered for reduction using new trash-to-energy plasma torch/incineration technology. Currently it's serving as an elevation for a suburban solar cell farm. Depending on how attached folks of the Golden Age get to their mounded over landfills and how 'green' urban planners go, dumps may be mined even sooner. However, industrial nanotech may up the economic viability of shifting ever-increasingly sparse landfill sites for recoverable materials.
Given the proximity of a number of older landfills to urban areas(NYC, Boston, to name a few), mining them could be seen as an extension of the nearby urban drilling ops, so you're still getting a two-fer.

Yup I would guess landfills would have been old ones as even now our tech is lowering the amount that is going into them at a pretty fast clip that would only increase if we got nano tech capable of separating useful stuff out efficiently and cleanly. Still I imagine around places like chicagos there are mini mountains somewhere in the area that are effectively one big covered trash heap full of every type of metal humans found useful as well as rare earths from monitors/tvs. And hell tap the methane as you do it and likely get a pretty solid amount of that for fuel as a add on bonus.

Yes we do know from multiple examples that there is traditional mining still happening. Things like mining borgs and the fact that a lot of the early NG equipment was recovered mining equipment and technology from the UP. I would guess the refining techniques though are "ahem" more refined. One of the problems in mining is not so much finding the materials as a lot of stuff even gold is somewhat common but just in such low concentrations as to make it not economically feasible to produce.

If you can get nano tech to aid in the refining process to pull out even low quantities of materials you need cleanly and efficiently even a totally "played out" current mine could be brought back into production. We even see stuff like this now up in alaska and the yukon with gold mining. Back in the day they went for big nuggets of gold because the gold dust from placer mining was harder to do and not really worth it given the big chunky gold they had access to. These days a lot of the old claims that were mined out are back into full production because we have the heavy equipment to gun through thousands of tons of earth and process it efficiently enough to be worth while.

And with robots and 'borgs working near-tirelessly under tedious, hazardous, union-going-to-smoke-your-arse-if-you-send-members-to-work-under-those conditions, pulling out the crumbs from played-out mines and fields becomes regular practice. No wonder Northern Gun 'bots sell so well.

Borgs and bots also make it easier to go a LOT deeper than currently. The deepest mines have more and more troubles with cooling once you get far enough down where exhaustion and heat stroke become constant issues. With bots and borgs you could follow ore beds down past what unaugmented people would be willing/able to do.

Land fills would actually be a good source, especially hazardous landfills. burning the waste may chemically break it down, but it can't do alchemy and change elements. Hazardous landfill work by taking hazardous elements and chemically binding them in other material like concrete before putting them in the ground. The waste has already had as much reclaimed as is affordable, but most still has parts per million traces. Mind you silver, copper, and chrome is considered hazardous waste and literally tons of waste containing silver and chrome go into hazard landfills everyday.

Yup and it contains enough "scary" stuff even if the tech to reclaim it becomes economical and safe it is not something a stable country is likely to ever do unless there is a current problem simply due to NIMBY type issues. The CS has no problems with any of that and those areas are already wrecked anyway so pretty much perfect mining sites. That said there are still limits even super tech can encounter mining played out mines and landfills and ruined cities. Eventually you get everything there that can be gotten.

I don't think the CS is there but they are getting to the point where they have to actually start worrying about now rather than wait until they are totally tapped out. One problem for chicago area is their closest major mineral deposits appear to be lead/zinc. Useful but not like the UP's copper/silver/iron mines or MN's huge iron range deposits of taconite.

That's the thing. HoH Says they "Are" at exactly that point.

Not tapped out yet, but expansion and new resources are needed to maintain present levels of use/expansion.

It could be said, that like most wars in history, the CS's Wars are actually over resource/population pressure.

They need more resources to maintain and expand their population so they're expanding their borders to get more resources with allows for more population which adds more pressure and the need for more resources....

I don't think Kevin/Palladium purposefully engineered it that way, but... it's not 'false'.

Yes the CS is getting to the point they see the bottom of the barrel. It also makes the tolkeen offensive make a lot more sense. That they are magic users is a good excuse to sell to the public but militaristic nations expanding as they run out of natural resources is as old as time.

Yep. HoH says that straight up. Doesn't obfuscate it. Points out they needed the land Tolkeen was on and more over needed the route to western area's for more resource acquisition.

The fact that Tokeen had ACTUALLY BECOME an evil nation of magic users, non with standing.

[quote="Pepsi Jedi"]Alot of the points have already been hit on but I'll round them up.

1: Yes, Lone Stark book states with out any doubt that the CS used advanced genetics in their food sources. Be it perfected quick growing meat sources that produce more meat, on less feed, in less time that tastes better (Genetically engineered super cows, straight from the book) To as someone else said above. Genetically perfected crops that resist weeds, and predation by insects and stuff, and produce greater yeilds, faster with fewer resources.

HoH mentions giant underground crop sources too.

All that said it's mentioned in HoH that the Tolkeen war was NOT all about magic users being a threat, but the fact the CS wanted to press westward, into the Territory that Tolkeen held and then the land west of that for food source, be it crops or live stock growing.

ALL that said, the CS is running low on food, and need more.

As a non CS point of fact, (As the OP was "on rifts earth" not 'Just the CS" it's noted also in HoH that if the CS didn't keep their food whoe's secret they could get help from a number of places. The Lumerians for example could feed all the CS with almost no effort what so ever, with a combination of their VAST undersea food sources, or through Biomancy.

2: Mineral acquisition. A: Conventional mining is still a thing. It's also mentioned in HoH in the section about their resource problems. The CS mines like anyone else. Also they have bee nmining HUGE amounts of silver for the minion wars (And other supernatural threats) Every CS troop is getting at least one if not more silver weapons.
So .. conventional mining is a thing.
B: as someone mentioned above as their personal hand wavium, it's in the books.... SOMEwhere.. (and I have no idea where) But it's in the books some where abolut D-shifting... where dimensions super impose and suddenly a chunk of another dimension is now on Rifts earth. It's mentioned somewhere that advanced nations know this and have special long range teams that go out and look for it. If you find... a mile of ground that dimensionally shifted from.. "The Steel dimension" or "The Copper planet" or "The diamond universe" it's a trove of minieral deposits. We know from one of the books that "our" Rocky mountains D-shifted off earth and the mountains that are there in thier place are completely different. That was an entire mountain range. So... it (DShifting) can happen on a large scale. We know that the nations go out looking far and wide, as that's exactly how the "Lone Star Complex" was found. A CS Survey team way way out side the borders of the CS found it by accident.

As pointed out, forests would be largely regrown in the last 300 years, so wood wouldn't be a problem. Also.. ciricling back around to Lone star, if you need quick growing trees the CS can do that too. The NGR doesn't talk tons about their genetics or such but their science is a few decades in advance of the CS so what the CS can do you can figure the NGR can do better (and Japan alot better)

I wouldn't think that mining old cities would be that great an investment, compaired to information mining in the old cities. Information on things being worth many times more than the old rusted out crap you're going to find in cities (As far as resources go)

Combine the above with advanced recycling technique and you're doing pretty good in tech advanced nations.

Once out side those, though.. whoo. Nose dive. You're talking about mud towns and such once out side the tech cities and scavaging and what not. The Tech "Drop off' is dramatic in Rifts.

You're either tooling around with Laser rifles, and hockey puck sized nuclear reactors... or.... You're living in a hut with a sharp stick. there's not tons 'In between'.[/

I think I found the article you brought up in point B; There’s Gold in them thar Hills! By Matthew Daye; Page 101, Rifter 00.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:and more over needed the route to western area's for more resource acquisition.

So much for Spirit West saying the CS isn't interested in colonizing the western wildernesses, a lot can change in a decade.

Well... not for nothing but... yeah. Alot can. Spirit west was from 97 so that's 19 years real time. In game it's less but even in game there's been major wars and stuff to factor in. Tolkeen, and now the Minion war. With the CS fielding 9,000,000 troops they're going to need alot of resources, so... that land (And more importantly what's 'in' it and 'on' it) Would be needed.

Palladium's really bad about not checking previous books for information.

Recently they really shot themselves in the foot on the Longevity of humans in system.

and to be honest, you can fudge things a bit by claimignthe CS doesn't want to colonize the west directly, rather it wants to subjugate the existing nations to it's whims the way it has with northern gun and the like, and take control of the existing mines. that is something that can be done without moving much of its civilian populace out there, though in practice you'd see "colonies in all but name" spring up after awhile, as troops marry into the local populace, and service industry based towns spring up around outposts and bases.. it would go even faster if married troops get to bring their families along.

Ng isn't exactly Subjugated. the CS is their biggest customer so they try and keep them happy, but retain their independence.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Ng isn't exactly Subjugated. the CS is their biggest customer so they try and keep them happy, but retain their independence.

Buyin' time, to keep from being rolled over, like IHA.
And the CS likely figures that pacifying any new Northern Gun territories may net them extra resources, but the time and material needed to re-organize them and turn the Great Lakes into CS swimming pools would weaken them for awhile.

Pretty much. The CS doesn't work with people because they feel anyone other than the CS has value. They are ruthless and relatively evil.

There aren't really any CS allies, just people the CS hasn't subjegate yet.

The CS isn't stupid though. They'll work with an "ally" until they feel they can take them. Be an ally of the CS at your own peril. Just be ready to take a knife in the back.

HWalsh wrote:Pretty much. The CS doesn't work with people because they feel anyone other than the CS has value. They are ruthless and relatively evil..

Pragmatically evil; reckless evil would be mad dog berserker killers. These guys are restraining themselves on the big things, and milking their rep for all it's worth, while covering their weaknesses.

glitterboy2098 wrote:and to be honest, you can fudge things a bit by claimignthe CS doesn't want to colonize the west directly, rather it wants to subjugate the existing nations to it's whims the way it has with northern gun and the like, and take control of the existing mines. that is something that can be done without moving much of its civilian populace out there, though in practice you'd see "colonies in all but name" spring up after awhile, as troops marry into the local populace, and service industry based towns spring up around outposts and bases.. it would go even faster if married troops get to bring their families along.

It may also go the route of CS lone star. Declare a large chunk of territory theirs but they only really care about a few facilities and a buffer around them so a lot of it is in name only.

One would assume with them taking out tolkeen they would at least eventually want to setup facilities/bases and what not in southern and central MN which are all pretty good agriculture areas as well. Probably depends how the minion war shakes out and if during that conflit the xiticix problem can be brought back under control.

HWalsh wrote:Pretty much. The CS doesn't work with people because they feel anyone other than the CS has value. They are ruthless and relatively evil.

There aren't really any CS allies, just people the CS hasn't subjegate yet.

The CS isn't stupid though. They'll work with an "ally" until they feel they can take them. Be an ally of the CS at your own peril. Just be ready to take a knife in the back.

And yet they're firm allies with Northern Gun... and the NGR and even sent armies of tens of thousands of troops to back up the NGR across the ocean.

Yet again your information is at best inaccurate, at worst willful lies.

NG is basically trapped.
They know that if they don't toe the line the CS will wipe them out in a heart beat (Ask Iron Heart Arms or Tolkeen about that...) But even if they DO toe the line the best that they can realistically hope for is to be assimilated as a full state when the CS gets around to conquering their corner of the continent (or pray that someone else takes out the CS first, or that a regime change occurs and the CS stops their imperial ambitions).

In the mean time they make a lot of money... and toe the line.

eliakon wrote:NG is basically trapped.
They know that if they don't toe the line the CS will wipe them out in a heart beat (Ask Iron Heart Arms or Tolkeen about that...) But even if they DO toe the line the best that they can realistically hope for is to be assimilated as a full state when the CS gets around to conquering their corner of the continent (or pray that someone else takes out the CS first, or that a regime change occurs and the CS stops their imperial ambitions).

In the mean time they make a lot of money... and toe the line.

"...and who knows? Maybe the horse will sing."

Thing is that's not how the books portray the NG/CS relationship.. If only we had two... relativly recent books that went over such things and painted them differently.

Wait!! We do!

eliakon wrote:NG is basically trapped.
They know that if they don't toe the line the CS will wipe them out in a heart beat (Ask Iron Heart Arms or Tolkeen about that...) But even if they DO toe the line the best that they can realistically hope for is to be assimilated as a full state when the CS gets around to conquering their corner of the continent (or pray that someone else takes out the CS first, or that a regime change occurs and the CS stops their imperial ambitions).

In the mean time they make a lot of money... and toe the line.

Basically.

What a lot of hardcore CS supporters don't want to see is that the CS has already proven that it will lash out at anyone who doesn't do as they say. Free Quebec they lashed out it, and granted they backed off, mostly because of the Tolkeen situation but also because CS leadership thinks that they will "return to the fold" eventually. So yes, Northern Gun is a longtime ally of the CS, but watch what happens if they do something the CS doesn't like. If they decide to start dealing in TW weapons or something the CS would come down on them like a hammer and squash them like a bug and they know it.

The NGR? Sure. Watch what happens though if Rasheen ever gets his way and deebees become full citizens and such? The CS would come down on them when they move into the NGR's region.

Karl Prosek is an evil megalomaniac and he will NOT suffer anyone who would disobey him.

And yet the books point out they ARE allies with NG, and long standing ones that have no intention of joining the CS and the CS having no intention of trying to make them.

Your speculation is fine. It's when you present it as if it were fact, that you trip up.

NG bends a bit to keep the CS Happy because the CS is a major customer and holds the banks for the universal Credit. The CS isn't holding a sword over their heads.

Nor is the CS holding a sword over the NGR. Not that they have to. the NGR are "CS light+literacy" They deport Dbees and chuck them 'out of the country' but what's 'out side the NGR? Huge armies of demons. So... "Kill them yourselves" vs "Kick um out and let the demons out side the borders kill um, is just 6 of 1 half a dozen of the other. But the NGR don't dress in black, so they don't get nearly so much grief over it. Bounces back to the CS and NGR being strong allies, perhaps the strongest multi national allies on Rifts earth. (There may be other stronger national allies but none really spring to mind.. Lazlo/New Lazlo maybe but that's kinda the same thing. One is an offshoot and descendant of the other.)

In the back of Prosek's mind, there may be the idea "One of these days, we really should make NG/MI part of the Coalition."

But then he looks at a map, and says, "Huh, there's all this lightly defended farmland over here, OR I can go to war with an ally to capture the things they already sell me, and a tiny spit of land."

Quite frankly, annexing the UP isn't on the table for at least a hundred years, because there are so many easier, better, targets.

HWalsh wrote:

eliakon wrote:NG is basically trapped.
They know that if they don't toe the line the CS will wipe them out in a heart beat (Ask Iron Heart Arms or Tolkeen about that...) But even if they DO toe the line the best that they can realistically hope for is to be assimilated as a full state when the CS gets around to conquering their corner of the continent (or pray that someone else takes out the CS first, or that a regime change occurs and the CS stops their imperial ambitions).

In the mean time they make a lot of money... and toe the line.

Basically.

What a lot of hardcore CS supporters don't want to see is that the CS has already proven that it will lash out at anyone who doesn't do as they say. Free Quebec they lashed out it, and granted they backed off, mostly because of the Tolkeen situation but also because CS leadership thinks that they will "return to the fold" eventually. So yes, Northern Gun is a longtime ally of the CS, but watch what happens if they do something the CS doesn't like. If they decide to start dealing in TW weapons or something the CS would come down on them like a hammer and squash them like a bug and they know it.

The NGR? Sure. Watch what happens though if Rasheen ever gets his way and deebees become full citizens and such? The CS would come down on them when they move into the NGR's region.

Karl Prosek is an evil megalomaniac and he will NOT suffer anyone who would disobey him.

Re: TWdry
MI per the RMB (and cut for RUE) are said to have "a loyal community of techno-wizards" (RMB pg147) so sometime between RMB period and CWC alliance something changed or...

However Columbia in SA1 also uses Magic (SA1 pg21) w/n its military forces and not just their Anti-Monster Magic Borgs (Battalion level) but a second battalion of magic users (mixed) in the 1st Army Corp and in the separate security forces (under special forces). This doesn't mean the CS approves, but is something they look the other way for given their other similarities (per text)

Re: Ally and D-Bees
The CS has some precedent though for working with allies that have D-Bees. Case in point NGR (D-Bee general, I know D-Bee issue is a bit more complicated than this, but ...) or Columbia in SA1 (Dwarves are full citizens). To some extent NG (maybe RMB/RUE unclear and I don't have the NG WBs) and MI (for sure as stated in RUE/RMB) might also qualify given in the MI 30% of the population are D-Bees (though I don't think we have an idea of their rights). So a CS ally being more "tolerant" isn't a game ender as the CS can be shown to "allow for it".

Mark Hall wrote:In the back of Prosek's mind, there may be the idea "One of these days, we really should make NG/MI part of the Coalition."

But then he looks at a map, and says, "Huh, there's all this lightly defended farmland over here, OR I can go to war with an ally to capture the things they already sell me, and a tiny spit of land."

Quite frankly, annexing the UP isn't on the table for at least a hundred years, because there are so many easier, better, targets.

Oh certainly.

They aren't on his immediate list of targets by any stretch.

Again the CS isn't stupid, just evil and power hungry. They would wait until the other "more threatening" places are take care of. Then, when they had little else to do, they would work to take NG, MI, and anyone else. As they become viable.

ShadowLogan wrote:[The CS has some precedent though for working with allies that have D-Bees. Case in point NGR (D-Bee general, I know D-Bee issue is a bit more complicated than this, but ...) or Columbia in SA1 (Dwarves are full citizens). To some extent NG (maybe RMB/RUE unclear and I don't have the NG WBs) and MI (for sure as stated in RUE/RMB) might also qualify given in the MI 30% of the population are D-Bees (though I don't think we have an idea of their rights). So a CS ally being more "tolerant" isn't a game ender as the CS can be shown to "allow for it".

The CS diplomatic corps, however, WILL insist that any business be done through HUMAN agents, and if they got the leverage in a given negotiation('What we got, you need more than what we want from you" sort), they'll twist that arm as far as it goes("If you were SERIOUS about dealing with us, you wouldn't send that ...not-a-person...to negotiate with us."). Also, if they think they can get away with it, I imagine the CS Ministry of Information will start street-level whispering campaigns, especially among disenfranchised humans, to attempt to turn them against their d-bee neighbors...nothing immediately overt(or high budget), but starting a grassroots human-favoring social movement building, in time, towards full-blown human-supremacist pro-CS power bloc. It's shoestring-budget covert ops social engineering, but the CS might figure it's at least a toe-wedge in the door.

Mark Hall wrote:In the back of Prosek's mind, there may be the idea "One of these days, we really should make NG/MI part of the Coalition."

But then he looks at a map, and says, "Huh, there's all this lightly defended farmland over here, OR I can go to war with an ally to capture the things they already sell me, and a tiny spit of land."

Quite frankly, annexing the UP isn't on the table for at least a hundred years, because there are so many easier, better, targets.

oh sure, that's probably why they invaded those lightly-defended targets before going after a city-state that had it's own army*, they and which they really should have known had spent the previous 25 years preparing to be invaded. and also why they haven't taken over or killed iron heart armaments yet.

right? [/sarcasm]

frankly, i'd say the only reason they haven't invaded militarily is that they're already taking over in a different way. if that method should turn out to fail, i wouldn't be surprised if "CS operatives uncovered evidence that NG/MI was secretly allied with the federation of magic" or something like that and the CS invaded.

* yes, i realize the strength of the resistance was unexpectedly high. it was also very predictably higher than what a bunch of farmers could have raised.

Shark_Force wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:In the back of Prosek's mind, there may be the idea "One of these days, we really should make NG/MI part of the Coalition."

But then he looks at a map, and says, "Huh, there's all this lightly defended farmland over here, OR I can go to war with an ally to capture the things they already sell me, and a tiny spit of land."

Quite frankly, annexing the UP isn't on the table for at least a hundred years, because there are so many easier, better, targets.

oh sure, that's probably why they invaded those lightly-defended targets before going after a city-state that had it's own army*, they and which they really should have known had spent the previous 25 years preparing to be invaded. and also why they haven't taken over or killed iron heart armaments yet.

right? [/sarcasm]

frankly, i'd say the only reason they haven't invaded militarily is that they're already taking over in a different way. if that method should turn out to fail, i wouldn't be surprised if "CS operatives uncovered evidence that NG/MI was secretly allied with the federation of magic" or something like that and the CS invaded.

* yes, i realize the strength of the resistance was unexpectedly high. it was also very predictably higher than what a bunch of farmers could have raised.

It was a little more complicated than that.

Chalk launched a nuke strike against Tolkeen. Tolkeen stopped the nuke strike though outer areas of the city were destroyed. Tolkeen's defenders retaliated and killed Chalk's forces.

The CS had to spin it because admitting that they made an unsanctioned, unprovoked, attack on a neighboring City-State would have looked bad and the slaughter of Chalk's forces in retaliation would have looked totally justified.

The CS would freak if they ever had to admit that deebees killing humans, especially CS soldiers, was warranted. Not only that but it would have made invading Tolkeen after the fact an internal PR nightmare. Not only that but if Tolkeen forces attacked CS holdings after it the CS would face sheepish claims of, "Well. We did kind of start it. I can see why they're mad."

So the CS spun it by claiming that Tolkeen lured Chalk in then launched a cowardly sneak attack. This means revenge is called for. So, at that point, the CS has to invade to save face.

Mark Hall wrote:In the back of Prosek's mind, there may be the idea "One of these days, we really should make NG/MI part of the Coalition."

But then he looks at a map, and says, "Huh, there's all this lightly defended farmland over here, OR I can go to war with an ally to capture the things they already sell me, and a tiny spit of land."

Quite frankly, annexing the UP isn't on the table for at least a hundred years, because there are so many easier, better, targets.

Exactly that.

We don't take kindly to that sort of thing up here. *Grins*

HWalsh wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:In the back of Prosek's mind, there may be the idea "One of these days, we really should make NG/MI part of the Coalition."

But then he looks at a map, and says, "Huh, there's all this lightly defended farmland over here, OR I can go to war with an ally to capture the things they already sell me, and a tiny spit of land."

Quite frankly, annexing the UP isn't on the table for at least a hundred years, because there are so many easier, better, targets.

oh sure, that's probably why they invaded those lightly-defended targets before going after a city-state that had it's own army*, they and which they really should have known had spent the previous 25 years preparing to be invaded. and also why they haven't taken over or killed iron heart armaments yet.

right? [/sarcasm]

frankly, i'd say the only reason they haven't invaded militarily is that they're already taking over in a different way. if that method should turn out to fail, i wouldn't be surprised if "CS operatives uncovered evidence that NG/MI was secretly allied with the federation of magic" or something like that and the CS invaded.

* yes, i realize the strength of the resistance was unexpectedly high. it was also very predictably higher than what a bunch of farmers could have raised.

It was a little more complicated than that.

Chalk launched a nuke strike against Tolkeen. Tolkeen stopped the nuke strike though outer areas of the city were destroyed. Tolkeen's defenders retaliated and killed Chalk's forces.

The CS had to spin it because admitting that they made an unsanctioned, unprovoked, attack on a neighboring City-State would have looked bad and the slaughter of Chalk's forces in retaliation would have looked totally justified.

The CS would freak if they ever had to admit that deebees killing humans, especially CS soldiers, was warranted. Not only that but it would have made invading Tolkeen after the fact an internal PR nightmare. Not only that but if Tolkeen forces attacked CS holdings after it the CS would face sheepish claims of, "Well. We did kind of start it. I can see why they're mad."

So the CS spun it by claiming that Tolkeen lured Chalk in then launched a cowardly sneak attack. This means revenge is called for. So, at that point, the CS has to invade to save face.

Only.. No no.. No.. No, only partially correct.. and no.

1) your post had nothing to do with the stuff you were replying to.
2) The CS did spin the events of CHalks folloy but not due to it being unprovoked. At that point Tolkeen had already shown it'self to be a threat, and was infact a threat and the war was already getting ready to start. Chalk was put in charge because everyone hated him and hope he took one to the face during it all. But it's not like the CS was hoping for peace and had to rush to cover it up.They covered up some of their losses to maintain public moral and public opinion.
Like... every country does.
3) You make it out like they had to spin or the people would think the attack was unjustified. This ignores canon for the decades leading up to it. The CS's civilians wern't surprised they were going to war. the 'hows' of it don't matter nearly so much in rifts as they do to us. It'd be dramatic if we nuked Canada but in rifts, there's honest to god dragons and gods and stuff running around. not nearly the unholy event you seem to be implying that would some how turn public opinion against the CS
4) The doesn't 'HAVE' to admit there was warrnted killing. It was war. People die in war. Tolkeens forces were proven to be just as evil as they were SAID to be. Look up in the post where I used your own cited pages to prove it. You remember? The ones pointing out all the demons? The ones pointing out where the demons were eating the cyberknights for tryng to stop their torture of the CS troops?
5) You talk about invading tolkeen being an "Inturnal pr nightmare" but you seem to totally ignore that it's not like the CS made tolkeen an enemy one day and invaded the next day. It'd been decades of build up to that point. You don't erase all that in a moment. Especially if that 'moment' included the monsters of Tolkeen killing tens of thousands of your troops.
6) You talk about "We did kind of start it" but are forgetting the history of Rifts earth. On Rifts earth the CS see the Dbees and mages as violent alien invaders. they 'Started it" when they invaded earth and wrecked the planet. You also forget the fighting with the Federation of Magic and that Tolkeen is lumped in with them. Sort of like people in the US tend to lump all the middle east in together. They see themselves as constantly beseiged for the entire history of the CS by hostile magical forces.
7) Yes the CS spun the folly. As any and every government that ever existed would have and still does. Can you say WMD?

can we take the discussion of CS policies to a different thread please?

in regards to resource extraction..
mining old trash dumps/landfills is likely going to work much like recycling old ruins. basically a strip mine that blows large chunks of the area into rubble, loads it up into trucks, and then the trucks take it to a processor that further grinds it up, then runs it through various chemical and thermal processes to separate out the valuable stuff from the largely worthless gravel/dirt. it is likely that the waste rock/soil that comes out the far end is then sold off for use in concrete, roads, or other construction. same basic processes as recycling and mining today, just hopefully a little more efficient and getting a better yield.

and i wouldn't count on nanotechnology*/nanomachinery*. first, rifts doesn't really have much in the way of "nano" scale machines (molecule to cell sized), and using micro or nano scale stuff to achieve a macro result like moving tiny bits of metal multiple meters through soil/solid rock is incredibly energy inefficient and wasteful.

*the is a difference between nanotechnology (items that are built at the molecule scale) and nanomachinery (devices that operate at the molecule scale.) MDC armor, as described in Triax2, is an example of a nanotechnology, in that it's properties are due to it's unique molecular structures. but this is something that can be created using macro scale tools/conditions that just effect the minute scales. think like how the right combination of heat, pressure, and additives can generate a specific type of steel (which gets its useful traits due to its specific molecular structures) rifts has very few examples of nanomachines, with a few items in japan being the main source. the bots in the IRMSS and the like are not even microscale, much less nanoscale.

glitterboy2098 wrote:can we take the discussion of CS policies to a different thread please?

Sure.

I doubt that it's nanotech either. If nanotech could recycle like that then it would be capable of reassembly. If it were capable of that then resources wouldn't be an issue anymore.

If you can realign the molecules you could turn anything into virtually anything else.

I'd think most of Rifts Earth resources are probably deep drilling. MDC drills allow deeper drilling than SDC drilling which would allow for much greater resource acquisition.

HWalsh wrote:The CS doesn't work with people because they feel anyone other than the CS has value.
They are ruthless and relatively evil.
There aren't really any CS allies, just people the CS hasn't subjegate yet.
They'll work with an "ally" until they feel they can take them. Be an ally of the CS at your own peril. Just be ready to take a knife in the back.

What in the canon actually supports these claims? Why should I take any CS alliance as not genuine?

HWalsh wrote:What a lot of hardcore CS supporters don't want to see is that the CS has already proven that it will lash out at anyone who doesn't do as they say. Free Quebec they lashed out it, and granted they backed off, mostly because of the Tolkeen situation but also because CS leadership thinks that they will "return to the fold" eventually.

Unsupported hypothesis. FQ only shows that the CS will attack someone who does what FQ did: commit treason by becoming a member state but refusing to abide by many of the imporrant military decisions of the democratically elected Chairman. Some examples:
1) reckless endangerment of human life and purity by barely regulated mass juicing and bionicization and refusal to employ psi-hounds
2) opening the door to supernatural threats by not utilizing dog boys to complement their human psychics for better coverage
3) putting too much power into a single person's hands by not disbanding their glitter boys
4) secretly running old bones which Erin Tarn revealed to the world in 101pa.
5) sharing dangerous technology with a foreign power without approval (as of mercs the CS missile APC was viewed as a deterrent to NGR air invasion, but now they have flying glitter boys)

Reacting violently to the sum of these betrayals is hardly proving they will lash out at any disobedience whatsoever. They can be tolerent over less important issues.

HWalsh wrote:So yes, Northern Gun is a longtime ally of the CS, but watch what happens if they do something the CS doesn't like. If they decide to start dealing in TW weapons or something the CS would come down on them like a hammer and squash them like a bug and they know it.

So? Magic is dangerous. Reacting to allies who endanger the earth doesn't make you a bad ally.

HWalsh wrote:The NGR? Sure. Watch what happens though if Rasheen ever gets his way and deebees become full citizens and such? The CS would come down on them when they move into the NGR's region.

Not necessarily. The CS wants a human-ruled Earth. Through mutant animals they show tolerance for properly vetted humanoids in service to humans. D-Bees just need much more thorough vetting. So much that the CS cannot presently spare the resources needed to do it, so instead they are expelled and killed if they resist, just like the NGR. The CS is actually more tolerant since they allow D-Bees to reside in human territory indefinitely as slaves. D-Bees on work visas in NGR still need to go sleep in dangerous border towns as cannon fodder.

HWalsh wrote:Karl Prosek is an evil megalomaniac and he will NOT suffer anyone who would disobey him.

Keep in mind he is just a casual unstatted less absolute megalomaniac. He isn't the "Megalomaniac" we see as an insanity who gets +10% to all skils or anything.

HWalsh wrote:Karl Prosek is an evil megalomaniac and he will NOT suffer anyone who would disobey him.

Keep in mind he is just a casual unstatted less absolute megalomaniac. He isn't the "Megalomaniac" we see as an insanity who gets +10% to all skils or anything.

ShadowLogan wrote:Re: TWdry
MI per the RMB (and cut for RUE) are said to have "a loyal community of techno-wizards" (RMB pg147) so sometime between RMB period and CWC alliance something changed or...

We should keep in mind this was written by Tarn who loves TWs and bashes CS so she could have lied to impede their relations. They probably weren't 30% mutoids & D-Bees either.

Also the letters that Traversing is compiled from go back up to two decades so we could be talking an entire generation's worth of change from 81 PA if Tarn was telling the truth and 105 PA when they were allied with. 24 years to gradually alienate the loyal TW community.

But then...CS could recognize non-member allies' sovereignty to deal with magic on the their own terms so long as they generally keep things under control.

Aren't Karl Prosek's stats given in CWC. I don't have my book handy but I recall it listing a bunch of NPC's in regards to the CS specifically thought it mentioned both Joseph and Karl and statted them out.

Guys, this discussion has gone way offtopic. Take it to a new thread or I'll ask a moderator to step in and deal with it.

glitterboy2098 wrote:Guys, this discussion has gone way offtopic. Take it to a new thread or I'll ask a moderator to step in and deal with it.

Well, the main problem I think is that we have discussed this one to death.

Recycling will only get you so far.
Nobody on Rifts Earth seems to have molecular recombination technology. So that outs "nanites" as a viable answer.
We don't know much about resources on Rifts Earth other than some physical locations have changed.

The closest we can get are mining 'Borgs from the New West.

We are pretty much back to square one.

How do people extract resources? It seems they mine for them and recycle what ever they can.