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If a character doesn't meet the attribute requirements for the ATP, they only get half the bonuses, also if a character that did meet the requirements takes the crash course version of the ATP, they get half bonuses, so if a character did not meet the attribute requirements and only took the crash course version, do they only get a quarter of the bonuses?

Hmm, I guess so. But let me ask you a question in return: Why was that person ALLOWED to take the training in the first place:

Instructor: You are a poor physical specimen for this certification, and we don't have much time to train you, so you are getting 1/2 the training. I assume that you will then be a productive member of this unit.

Maybe only someone that has existing talent in the required areas would even be considered to take part in a "Crash Course"? And someone that doesn't meet the requirements would be passed-over?

you dont have to meet the full requirements though to take the course, but if youre saying only people that do meet the full requirements can take the crash course, wouldnt those people be the ones that you would want to take the full course?? they would benefit the most.

I guess I am inquiring about who is providing and why the advanced training is being given. If a person already failed to meet the minimum requirements, why would the instructor want to give then an abridged version of the training?

If a person wanted to be a pilot, but had poor eyesight and reflexes, I would hope that the flight school would then not offer to give this person the "short-short-version" of the instruction. Seems like a recipe for disaster to me.

But that is really more of a question to ask in-game to the instructor, I guess.

By the book, yes the PC would probably receive 1/4 the bonuses.

filo_clarke wrote:I guess I am inquiring about who is providing and why the advanced training is being given. If a person already failed to meet the minimum requirements, why would the instructor want to give then an abridged version of the training?

If a person wanted to be a pilot, but had poor eyesight and reflexes, I would hope that the flight school would then not offer to give this person the "short-short-version" of the instruction. Seems like a recipe for disaster to me.

But that is really more of a question to ask in-game to the instructor, I guess.

By the book, yes the PC would probably receive 1/4 the bonuses.

To be honest?
I would grab my munch bat and whack the player upside the head with it while saying "NO" in a firm voice.[sup]1[/sup]
Then I would reiterate the same reasons given here.
AT training is not "moar powerz" it is Advanced Training for specialists to make them capable of handling special jobs in their field. It is being offered only by major militaries who know exactly what they are doing. There are a few reasons to give the short class, such as needing snipers or pilots in a hurry. And there are reasons to ignore the minimums such as a person with otherwise exemplary qualifications seeking training in a field they are good at. But there is no reason to waste time and resources teaching someone who is unqualified... and teaching them poorly. Out side of some incredibly unique circumstances I can't see it happening.

1 When the minion war heats up and there are demons and devils everywhere it is remotely possible that the CS might start offering abridged versions of the Demon Hunter AT to people based on something like rank, or kill scores, or something else that would allow unqualified people to win slots.
Maybe. Even then it is pretty iffy. I say that because you still only have so many instructors who have only so much time. It is STILL a better investment to save the limited seats available for qualified individuals and thus get the most tactical advantage.

don't meet the criteria and accelerated program? no bonuses.
just a "yes he participated" notation on his service jacket. because if you don't meet the criteria, you've basically washed out during the program. reduced bonuses from the regular program would be a way to reflect that he learned at least something before washing out.

an accelerated program ramps up the difficulty in order to get it done fast. as a result it usually isn't as good of training. however it also washes out people who can't cut it fast. so if your not up to the task, your not gonna pick up much of anything before getting the boot.

Eli is right that this is advanced training programs not just a game mechanic. compare it to the Navy Fighter Weapons School (TOPGUN) or the Army Pathfinder's School or the Marine's Force Recon. someone who has a good enough service jacket (good recommendations, record of excellent service, shows high skill levels in his MOS, etc) to be considered for such programs can usually get in. but that doesn't mean they actually can cut it once in. these programs always have a high washout rate. now does this mean that the washouts didn't learn anything? no. usually they learn enough to make them more useful to their original units when they return. they just aren't as good as someone who passes the training. and won't get the special status the successful training gives them in the TO&E.

an accelerated program ramps up the difficulty in order to get it done fast. as a result it usually isn't as good of training. however it also washes out people who can't cut it fast. so if your not up to the task, your not gonna pick up much of anything before getting the boot.

Yeah, this is pretty much my take on it too. The only people who should even consider the crash course are those who are already gifted at it. Someone who would wash out of the long-form course would be completely out of their depth in the intensive version.

but thats not how it's written in the book, homebrew rules can supercede in your game, but as the rules are written, (most) anyone can take the crash course and coming near to the attributes requirements allow you to take the course, but if both options are chosen, do the bonus penalties stack? Im not arguing whether they should be allowed, or why they should be or who shouldn't be? Im playing by the rules outlined and just wanted to figure out the total penalties

mercedogre wrote:but thats not how it's written in the book, homebrew rules can supercede in your game, but as the rules are written, (most) anyone can take the crash course and coming near to the attributes requirements allow you to take the course, but if both options are chosen, do the bonus penalties stack? Im not arguing whether they should be allowed, or why they should be or who shouldn't be? Im playing by the rules outlined and just wanted to figure out the total penalties

That's the problem there are no rules that cover this.
By the rules there is no permission for quarter penalties. So there is no "by the rules" the GM would have to make a ruling no matter what. Thus it depends on how the GM wants to do the math. Is it -50% of X twice (which is 0% of X) or do you halve X twice which could be a quarter... or could round down (since there is no quarter) Or could round UP if the GM decides that the rules don't allow for you to get less than 50% of the AT. ALL of them are "by the rules"... depending on how you interpret those rules.

eliakon wrote:

filo_clarke wrote:I guess I am inquiring about who is providing and why the advanced training is being given. If a person already failed to meet the minimum requirements, why would the instructor want to give then an abridged version of the training?

If a person wanted to be a pilot, but had poor eyesight and reflexes, I would hope that the flight school would then not offer to give this person the "short-short-version" of the instruction. Seems like a recipe for disaster to me.

But that is really more of a question to ask in-game to the instructor, I guess.

By the book, yes the PC would probably receive 1/4 the bonuses.

To be honest?
I would grab my munch bat and whack the player upside the head with it while saying "NO" in a firm voice.[sup]1[/sup]
Then I would reiterate the same reasons given here.
AT training is not "moar powerz" it is Advanced Training for specialists to make them capable of handling special jobs in their field. It is being offered only by major militaries who know exactly what they are doing. There are a few reasons to give the short class, such as needing snipers or pilots in a hurry. And there are reasons to ignore the minimums such as a person with otherwise exemplary qualifications seeking training in a field they are good at. But there is no reason to waste time and resources teaching someone who is unqualified... and teaching them poorly. Out side of some incredibly unique circumstances I can't see it happening.

1 When the minion war heats up and there are demons and devils everywhere it is remotely possible that the CS might start offering abridged versions of the Demon Hunter AT to people based on something like rank, or kill scores, or something else that would allow unqualified people to win slots.
Maybe. Even then it is pretty iffy. I say that because you still only have so many instructors who have only so much time. It is STILL a better investment to save the limited seats available for qualified individuals and thus get the most tactical advantage.

I agree with Eli on this particular issue.

I agree with all this agreeing

so to answer the question simply, you wouldn't allow a person to stack penalties, only accept one penalty, could have just gotten to that point right away, saved time.........