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Why can't someone just fly or teleport to the land of damned? And fly out... It says you can see the Land of the Damned on a clear day from the northern coast of the Western Empire. What is stopping you from doing that?

Nothing. Go right ahead. The gods love having people go into the Land of the Damned. Probably nothing bad at all will happen.

The coast lines along the Land of the Damned are some of the most dangerous in the world... with steep cliffs, treacherous waters (both from storms and the creatures that live within them) and sudden storms (only some of which are naturally occurring).

Beyond this, flying is not that common in Palladium. For every creature that could fly in or out of the Land of the Damned, there are just as many (if not more) who can also fly that will want to keep them in or out of the area. Most people outside of the Land of the Damned believe everything within it is evil in the extreme (not entirely accurate, but also not far from the truth either) and will try to destroy anything that tries to escape by air. Similarly, there forces within the Land of the Damned that don't want strangers poking into their business... and will discourage outsiders from entering (and preventing those from within from leaving).

Both those within and those without of the Land of the Damned have a vested interest in keeping the area isolated and contained... though only a few do so for the best interests of the Palladium World in mind.

Flocks of gargoyle, bal-rogs, storms, giant beasts and..... why?
To most the idea of going into a pit of doom and death doesnt seem like a challenge or opportunity but a death sentence. If you can afford a flying ship or a magic carpet, why not stay where the wine is? Why travel to a bleek doom filled fate?

Its like saying why dont more millionaires charter helicopter rides into trenobile, during a war there, with reports of mutaded evil? Becuase they can charter a flight to france or Hawaii instead.

Only the most desperate merc will take a job to go there.

I brought a high level Rifts Party there as GM.
Powerful in Rifts equals Running for your life in The Land of The Damned.
Just Saying.

I get that it is a powerful and dangerous place. I was wondering in the context of magical/physical barrier that would make it difficult. If there was anything impeding someone from crossing over and back, especially since it is stated throughout the books that many people go there for treasure and lost magic. There doesn't seem to be much from stopping magic users. On the flip side, there isn't much stopping people from leaving via flying.

It's the inhabitants, i mean a single Jeridu can strike like 5 times per attack and still keep its autoparry.

Actually, there is a lot stopping people from going there.

Like I said, the coastlines are more or less shear cliffs... often hundreds of feet high (similar to the Cliffs of Dover on the British Isles. There are few beaches for landing safely... and the waters are incredibly treacherous (storms, reefs, hostile life forms). All of this makes even flying there (even by magical means) difficult. Likewise, teleportation (via spells) requires one to know where they are teleporting to... something few wizards know since few people actually get there. Even teleportation circles would require knowing the location of another circle within the area to connect with.

Going by land is only slightly easier as one only has to deal with the dangers found in the Great Northern Mountains... which are taller than any other mountain ranges on the continent. We are talking about an entire mountain range where the shortest peak is as tall as Everest in our world. Most who can fly still find traveling this way to be difficult because the air at such altitudes gets very thin... making natural flight difficult if not impossible, and even magical flight hard (when one can barely breathe). Most passes through the mountains only go half way before one has to climb some of the most treacherous terrain the Palladium world has to offer. Beyond this, there are sudden storms and often freezing cold to deal with in addition to natural hazards of mountain climbing. Then there are the creatures that make these mountains their home... both mundane and magical... that don't always take kindly to intruders.

Yes, there are many tales of adventurers heading into the Land of the Damned to track down some fantastic treasure. However, there are considerably fewer tales telling of their return. Most never do. The few that do often were forced to turn back due to many factors (most of them being the terrain itself). Even the few that do make it into the Land of the Damned find that while there may be a treasure trove of wonders to be found, most are in the hands of very evil beings that won't share them and are at war with other very evil beings. Many end up getting dragged into these conflicts (though rarely by choice).

The number of adventurers that have managed to cross into the Land of the Damned and returned can usually be counted on one's hands... out of the thousands who have attempted the feat. Simply put, it is a very difficult place to enter or leave... and even magic doesn't make it any easier (especially since many of the beings within also have access to similar magics).

Still, the rumors of great treasures waiting to be claimed persist... and many adventurers are lured there by such tales.

There's also something about the mountains which make teleportation in or across them have a 90% chance to go haywire and fling the teleporter hundreds of miles back in a random direction away from the mountain.

Getting to the LotD is not the problem.
I think I remember there being a curse that affects the people and monsters there that forces then to stay there. And it is avoiding this curse (or getting it removed) that is what is 'The Problem'.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Getting to the LotD is not the problem.
I think I remember there being a curse that affects the people and monsters there that forces then to stay there. And it is avoiding this curse (or getting it removed) that is what is 'The Problem'.

That curse only covers the Eternal Torment, and only effects undead.

Petty tyrants thrive when they have authority backed by vague regulations.

The mountains are too high to fly over magically or normally. The waters are full of [undead/demon/interdimensional creature] eating sea serpents.

Well, I think people have generally covered it. If you're a Wizard or have magical flying ability you need more than that. First you have to be able to fly for the duration it will take to travel the distance. Not too difficult, but that can rule out lower level mages. Second, you need to be able to breath at such a high altitude. Third, you need to be able to withstand the cold. Fourth, you have to be able to deal with the wind. If the wind is pushing you back at 70mph and you're using Fly as the Eagle at 60mph. Fifth, you need to be unseen.

Also, as people have stated, upon landing then what?

Now as for the Jeridu, it's a myth that they get to use each set of limbs per attack, thus multiplying their attacks per melee. They can use any set of their limbs, and their multiple limbs + coordination means they receive extra attacks per melee. I asked the author about this and that's what he told me.

-Vek
"Bill Coffin, is the author's name."

Well, I think people have generally covered it. If you're a Wizard or have magical flying ability you need more than that. First you have to be able to fly for the duration it will take to travel the distance. Not too difficult, but that can rule out lower level mages. Second, you need to be able to breath at such a high altitude. Third, you need to be able to withstand the cold. Fourth, you have to be able to deal with the wind. If the wind is pushing you back at 70mph and you're using Fly as the Eagle at 60mph. Fifth, you need to be unseen.

Also, as people have stated, upon landing then what?

Now as for the Jeridu, it's a myth that they get to use each set of limbs per attack, thus multiplying their attacks per melee. They can use any set of their limbs, and their multiple limbs + coordination means they receive extra attacks per melee. I asked the author about this and that's what he told me.

-Vek
"Bill Coffin, is the author's name."

Then i guess i House Ruled, using common sense in that.
Six arms= 5 strikes per attack, 4 arms = 3, 2 arms equal 1 and all keep the auto parry.

Veknironth wrote:Well, I think people have generally covered it. If you're a Wizard or have magical flying ability you need more than that. First you have to be able to fly for the duration it will take to travel the distance. Not too difficult, but that can rule out lower level mages. Second, you need to be able to breath at such a high altitude. Third, you need to be able to withstand the cold. Fourth, you have to be able to deal with the wind. If the wind is pushing you back at 70mph and you're using Fly as the Eagle at 60mph. Fifth, you need to be unseen.

Also, as people have stated, upon landing then what?

Now as for the Jeridu, it's a myth that they get to use each set of limbs per attack, thus multiplying their attacks per melee. They can use any set of their limbs, and their multiple limbs + coordination means they receive extra attacks per melee. I asked the author about this and that's what he told me.

-Vek
"Bill Coffin, is the author's name."

If they take duel wield twice and have 4 arms they should be able to slash 4 times with 1 handed weapons

There's far worse things there than Jeridu. I always viewed LOTD as place to end a characters story. "And heroically they entered the Land of the Damned, never to return."

Veknironth wrote: Now as for the Jeridu, it's a myth that they get to use each set of limbs per attack, thus multiplying their attacks per melee. They can use any set of their limbs, and their multiple limbs + coordination means they receive extra attacks per melee. I asked the author about this and that's what he told me.

-Vek
"Bill Coffin, is the author's name."

Unfortunately it is true and isn't a myth, I guess Bills original idea was changed when it came to printing.
Quoted from the book
Incredible Coordination: The Jeridu have six arms and can
use them all equally well and simultaneously

Paired Weapons: All Jeridu automatically have the skill of
Paired Weapons, and can use it for all six of their arms.
When using weapons in every arm, the Jeridu basically acts
like he can control three sets of paired weapons at once. This
makes these people utterly lethal in close combat.


So a level 5 jeridu who has 5 attacks a round, fleets feets him self to 10, and does 10 simultaneous strikes with 6 arms (and for most people who have 2 arms you can only parry 2 of the attacks if you are using 2 weapons or weapon and shield) and rolls for 60 attacks per round, where 20 can be parried (it is only 10 dice rolled though, but its scary if you roll a 20).

When my players suggest an expedition to the Land of the Damned, my mindset shifts from "How can I create a heroic adventure?" to "How can I give them an epic death... and what is the next campaign going to be about?" Not saying it "is" a death sentence, just a likely outcome.

"There won't be any trumpets blowing,
Come the judgment day,
On the bloody morning after
One tin soldier rides away."

-One Tin Soldier lyrics

mirithol wrote:When my players suggest an expedition to the Land of the Damned, my mindset shifts from "How can I create a heroic adventure?" to "How can I give them an epic death... and what is the next campaign going to be about?" Not saying it "is" a death sentence, just a likely outcome.

"There won't be any trumpets blowing,
Come the judgment day,
On the bloody morning after
One tin soldier rides away."

-One Tin Soldier lyrics

Actually, that entire song that you quoted does present an interesting story idea... of a small kingdom/city-state within the land of the Damned that has resisted the evil for generations... supposedly with some great magical artifact or treasure that might be able to be used elsewhere as well... and getting it could present some tough moral choices. Then perhaps the players search for this kingdom only to discover it has already fallen... and need to see if there are clues as to what happened to the fabled treasure that could help another nation resist the evils of the Land of the Damned. In the end... how this plays out will be up to you.

Certainty of death, small chance of success, what are we waiting for? Sums up Land of the Damned. Can't wait for number three.

*looks at his Land of the Damned travel brochure* "Ooooh! they have volcanic hot springs and succubus bath attendants!"

The minotaur anti-aircraft emplacements have a reputation for ruthless efficiency.

An Mdc conversion for Rifts would be great. Dimensional shift to west of the Rockies?

say652 wrote:An Mdc conversion for Rifts would be great. Dimensional shift to west of the Rockies?

Dark Conversions.

Petty tyrants thrive when they have authority backed by vague regulations.

The Beast wrote:

say652 wrote:An Mdc conversion for Rifts would be great. Dimensional shift to west of the Rockies?

Dark Conversions.

I do not know this book?

say652 wrote:

The Beast wrote:

say652 wrote:An Mdc conversion for Rifts would be great. Dimensional shift to west of the Rockies?

Dark Conversions.

I do not know this book?

I don't know. Do you?

Petty tyrants thrive when they have authority backed by vague regulations.

The Beast wrote:

say652 wrote:

The Beast wrote:

say652 wrote:An Mdc conversion for Rifts would be great. Dimensional shift to west of the Rockies?

Dark Conversions.

I do not know this book?

I don't know. Do you?

You got me.
I ain't even Mad. Lol

say652 wrote:I brought a high level Rifts Party there as GM.
Powerful in Rifts equals Running for your life in The Land of The Damned.
Just Saying.

Agreed. I did the same.

Suicycho wrote:

say652 wrote:I brought a high level Rifts Party there as GM.
Powerful in Rifts equals Running for your life in The Land of The Damned.
Just Saying.

Agreed. I did the same.

To be honest... I wouldn't say that Powerful in Rifts = Running for one's life in Land of the Damned. It really depends on the characters in question... and whether or not you let them keep their MDC weapons and armor (even if they are rendered to SDC levels).

It would also depend on the types and number of creatures you put them up against... even in the Land of the Damned, there won't be a battalion of Demon Lords hiding under every bolder... or in every tree, cave, lake, river or what not. Yes, there are many there, but it is still a vast area to cover... and not even the evil that pervades this place can be everywhere. There are places that will offer relative safety... at least for a time.

Razorwing wrote:

Suicycho wrote:

say652 wrote:I brought a high level Rifts Party there as GM.
Powerful in Rifts equals Running for your life in The Land of The Damned.
Just Saying.

Agreed. I did the same.

To be honest... I wouldn't say that Powerful in Rifts = Running for one's life in Land of the Damned. It really depends on the characters in question... and whether or not you let them keep their MDC weapons and armor (even if they are rendered to SDC levels).

It would also depend on the types and number of creatures you put them up against... even in the Land of the Damned, there won't be a battalion of Demon Lords hiding under every bolder... or in every tree, cave, lake, river or what not. Yes, there are many there, but it is still a vast area to cover... and not even the evil that pervades this place can be everywhere. There are places that will offer relative safety... at least for a time.

Except that Rifts characters tend to be loud (explosive, an mdc weapon missing or hitting makes a big boom) and bright (missiles streaming through the air, lasers carving up flying critters etc), so they pretty much attract everything in the area, then its a matter of do they have enough ammo to survive the first wave, because after the demon lords see what they have and how they could change things for said demon lords they would throw a crap load of stuff at them, if only to stop their equipment from falling into the wrong hands, but more likely trying to get it for the demon lords hands.

kiralon wrote:

Razorwing wrote:

Suicycho wrote:

say652 wrote:I brought a high level Rifts Party there as GM.
Powerful in Rifts equals Running for your life in The Land of The Damned.
Just Saying.

Agreed. I did the same.

To be honest... I wouldn't say that Powerful in Rifts = Running for one's life in Land of the Damned. It really depends on the characters in question... and whether or not you let them keep their MDC weapons and armor (even if they are rendered to SDC levels).

It would also depend on the types and number of creatures you put them up against... even in the Land of the Damned, there won't be a battalion of Demon Lords hiding under every bolder... or in every tree, cave, lake, river or what not. Yes, there are many there, but it is still a vast area to cover... and not even the evil that pervades this place can be everywhere. There are places that will offer relative safety... at least for a time.

Except that Rifts characters tend to be loud (explosive, an mdc weapon missing or hitting makes a big boom) and bright (missiles streaming through the air, lasers carving up flying critters etc), so they pretty much attract everything in the area, then its a matter of do they have enough ammo to survive the first wave, because after the demon lords see what they have and how they could change things for said demon lords they would throw a crap load of stuff at them, if only to stop their equipment from falling into the wrong hands, but more likely trying to get it for the demon lords hands.

Only if they are trigger-happy idiots... in which case they get exactly what they deserve. Even so... is still depends on the weapons involved... contrary to what movies and comics would have us believe, most energy weapons make very little sound (it's even been stated that many manufacturers on Rifts Earth put sound generators into the weapons to give them distinctive sounds... but which can actually be turned off for stealth purposes). Only rail guns (including the infamous Boom Gun) and explosives tend to make much noise. Of course this doesn't include the sound of falling trees that may have had large portions of trunks blasted away... and other such situations... but the weapons themselves and the damage they do are not nearly as loud as you may think (and like other places in Palladium, there could be no one for miles in any direction).

Besides... if they are doing Mega Damage on an SDC world... even a typical e-clip should allow them to kill nearly anything the Land of the Damned can throw at them with each shot. Palladium doesn't become an MDC world just because a few people have MDC weaponry.

Finally... the Demon Lords are not omniscient... they can't see everything... or even through the eyes of most of their minions. The only way they might find out about the weapons these players have is either: A) they actually see it themselves or B) some of their minions survive the encounter with the players and report their failure. Beyond that... most demons really couldn't care less about mortal weapons... even ones as powerful as these... because they are still mortal weapons. If they thought they were magical, then they might be interested at least until they could figure out they aren't... and that they have no way of replicating them (demons don't do technology as a rule).

All this of course assumes that players making the interdimensional journey retain such weapons in the first place. The conversion books state that taking MDC weapons and armor to SDC worlds can be incredibly disruptive and encourages GMs not to do so... offering suggestions from depowering such weapons to mere SDC levels (in which case such weapons are even less likely to draw attention from demonic beings) to rendering them completely useless (completely depowered to disintegrated in transit). Now while this may not seem like it makes much sense at first... we are talking about crossing dimensions where the laws of physics (and metaphysics) may be just different enough to prevent such technology from working.

In the end, a group of smart players will try to keep a low profile in a strange land until they can figure out what's what.

I believe in some dimension book, megaverse generator...something-something-nonsense, there is a particular passage that dictates there are worlds where your MDC become SDC, not converted by any factors, just straight across. Which suddenly makes your 2d4 mega damage pistol which on rifts earth can reduce boulders to slag and kill anything that's straight SDC...suddenly is about as good as a bow and arrow with better range.

Somehow...dimension hopping creates lots of flashlights.

Razorwing wrote: In the end, a group of smart players will try to keep a low profile in a strange land until they can figure out what's what.

What are these mythic creatures of which you speak, I have never encountered them.


Whenever I brought a group over to palladium from a modern day or futuristic setting the first thing they would do if they saw something mildly threatening they would shoot it, not to mention there is always this conversation

Hey that looks like a dragon, I wonder if my (at4 launcher/plasma ejector/army of t-rex's with transforming Glitterboy armour with the SDF mega cannon controlled by thought alone) can kill it.
half a second passes
everyone in party goes pew pew pew
a new sun forms briefly where dragon was.
cue argument about who gets what bit of the dragon.

Recently happened.
GM told us about rumors of some bizarre lightning demon.
Turns out to be Pikachu (yes...that one, but of course, not really).
I try to capture it (because to be the very best that no one ever was, you gotta catch'm all, right?)
Everyone else is trying to kill it.
Pikachu isn't firing back at us, he's running away. Someone finally lands a solid hit. The creature cries at us, in a child like voice. "Why are you hurting me?"
They keep shooting. I tell them to stand down, they don't listen (and I'm the total scumbag mercenary in this unit).
Pikachu shows his true form, a royal frilled dragon. ALL ATTACKS INTENSIFY 100,000,000,000%! 2 day old dragon hatchling is well and murdered, crying, wondering why the world is such a painful place, it dies.
Me, scumbag mercenary, can't even find the words. Gotta shrug and say, "What a waste."
Everyone else is celebrating like they just saved the planet.

Seems bad.

That Dragon had it Coming, for simply being a Dragon.
Probably inleague with the Demons, good riddance.

To be honest... I blame MMOs for this kind of behavior in many gamers... as such RPGs (can we really call such game an RPG if there is little to no role-playing) reward players for killing anything and everything they can... turning people into the equivalent of genocidal psychopaths.

Of course GMs are partially responsible for this sort of behavior too... allowing players to murder indiscriminately with no consequences to their actions. In the above example with the Dragon... I probably would have shown them such consequences by having the Dragon's mother (at least an Adult... possibly an Ancient Dragon) show up to check on her child and find the players celebrating its death.

While it is true that most dragons do abandon their children shortly before they hatch, it has also been mentioned that mothers will at least accept their children for a little while should they meet. In this case, I would have the mother in the area (it is likely her territory after all) and having received a cry of terror from her offspring, comes to see what happened.

Seeing the players celebrating their murder of her child would send any mother into a nearly murderous rage... and likely the players are running low on armor and ammo... so seeing an even bigger dragon with far greater power arriving should be making them **** their pants. Now... while Mama Dragon has every right to do to the players what they did to her child... that really wouldn't teach players to stop shooting first and asking questions never, would it? Not at all. Fortunately, adult dragons have a reputation for not only fierceness, but also for powerful magics... more than enough to incapacitate a group of stupid adventurers... and force them to pay reparations for their actions (with the threat of becoming her next meal if they refuse).

It really is up to a GM to curb such behavior if it is becoming particularly troublesome in a game. In my groups... players have learned that their actions will have consequences for their characters... consequences that are appropriate to what they have done. If they kill everyone in a bandit camp without regard... they discover that they just murdered someone the bandits were holding for ransom... and now are likely wanted fugitives from justice (and will have to deal with people treating them like bandits). Of course I don't go for *** for tat... show them no mercy when they showed none... that kind of punishment only reinforces such behavior. No... I make them suffer through the consequences of their actions... by having the forces against them use methods to capture and force them to experience such... rather than just wipe them out. You would be surprised at how much players change when their characters are stripped of all their equipment and thrown into a prison for a few years (there are some deliciously nasty prisons in the Eastern Territory books that could suffice)... and it does make an interesting change when such players have to learn to use methods other than overwhelming force.

This is even true in the Land of the Damned. Yes, the place is infested with demons. No, that doesn't mean they will kill everything in sight. Most demons love to belittle, torture and play with mortals... especially helpless ones and would-be heroes. Many demons love nothing more than to show such arrogant mortals the folly of their heroics by enslaving them and proving just how powerless such heroes really are... dragging it on for days, weeks, months, even years before killing the hero... providing many chances for players to escape.

I agree for the most part, Razorwing, but if your campaign evolves into an NPC revenge story, and the players wanted an epic no consequence tale of their own badassery, then you've got a real problem, and suddenly no gaming group.

You did point out my Prosek was Showing. Lol

Alrik Vas wrote:Recently happened.
GM told us about rumors of some bizarre lightning demon.
Turns out to be Pikachu (yes...that one, but of course, not really).
I try to capture it (because to be the very best that no one ever was, you gotta catch'm all, right?)
Everyone else is trying to kill it.
Pikachu isn't firing back at us, he's running away. Someone finally lands a solid hit. The creature cries at us, in a child like voice. "Why are you hurting me?"
They keep shooting. I tell them to stand down, they don't listen (and I'm the total scumbag mercenary in this unit).
Pikachu shows his true form, a royal frilled dragon. ALL ATTACKS INTENSIFY 100,000,000,000%! 2 day old dragon hatchling is well and murdered, crying, wondering why the world is such a painful place, it dies.
Me, scumbag mercenary, can't even find the words. Gotta shrug and say, "What a waste."
Everyone else is celebrating like they just saved the planet.

Seems bad.

Murder Hobos. Alignment?

Good time for the invisible Karma Dragon to be flying over or the Guardian Angel to show up levitating the innocent into the sky in holy light. Not sure if that is appropriate for Pikachu.

Mostly evil, self-justifying CS types, mirithol. It's about what you'd expect, really.

Gravy is aberrant and a "loyal" Coalition States Lieutenant Colonel. Helping dissidents against demons is one thing, being suprise attacked by a dragon is something else. Just thankful my bionics and training saved the day actually.

The freezing temperatures. The altitude sickness. The air pressure.

Well if you're going to the LotD you can go by sea, air, or water. If you go by water from
Bizantium you got the Sea of Despair to contend with. Enough said. And you can't dock a ship.
Razorwing was right you got these massive sheer cliffs that routinely have chunks break off so
climbing them is not a good idea. Not to mention things live on and in the rocks. And lying in
wait are a host of sea monsters, mutant sea life, and sea serpents.

If you come from the Sea of Despair, you have to deal with trained sea serpents of the
Zaranceti. These guys patrols the waters constantly and you could have 1D4 sea serpents
attacking your craft at the same time and the Zaranceti have patrols that always on the
lookout for enemy ships (hopeful more info about these guys and their sea serpents will be in
Phi sourcebook )

You could try going to the Broken Horn but you got a Zaranceti invasion as well as several
hundred thousand minotaurs to contend with.

The safest method seems to be flying in from the south (Western Empire) but if you want to
land in the Eternal Torment, not a very good idea.

Teleport would be great but where exactly are you teleporting too? I suppose you could tempt
fate by getting close enough to the shore say 5 miles (8 km) and using a telescope teleport
there and teleport back. Still have to deal with the sea serpents though.

Climbing over the Northern Mountains? Very difficult and taxing. Lots of encounters and making
a lot of climbing rolls.

Alrik Vas wrote:Recently happened.
GM told us about rumors of some bizarre lightning demon.
Turns out to be Pikachu (yes...that one, but of course, not really).
I try to capture it (because to be the very best that no one ever was, you gotta catch'm all, right?)
Everyone else is trying to kill it.
Pikachu isn't firing back at us, he's running away. Someone finally lands a solid hit. The creature cries at us, in a child like voice. "Why are you hurting me?"
They keep shooting. I tell them to stand down, they don't listen (and I'm the total scumbag mercenary in this unit).
Pikachu shows his true form, a royal frilled dragon. ALL ATTACKS INTENSIFY 100,000,000,000%! 2 day old dragon hatchling is well and murdered, crying, wondering why the world is such a painful place, it dies.
Me, scumbag mercenary, can't even find the words. Gotta shrug and say, "What a waste."
Everyone else is celebrating like they just saved the planet.

Seems bad.

Sounds like that hatchling got royally frilled.

Alrik Vas wrote:I agree for the most part, Razorwing, but if your campaign evolves into an NPC revenge story, and the players wanted an epic no consequence tale of their own badassery, then you've got a real problem, and suddenly no gaming group.

I'm not into revenge... but actions have consequences... and the longer players think that they can do anything and everything they want without any regard for anything... the worse a game will get.

If your players are supposed to be heroes (Scrupulous, Principled and even Unprincipled alignments), yet their characters are killing indiscriminately... then at the very least their alignments should be slipping towards Anarchist, Miscreant and even Diabolic. If they are acting like thugs and bandits, then sooner or later a "real" hero will come along to bring righteous justice upon them for the actions they can't deny happened (because they have been boasting of it).

If they wanted consequenceless badassery... they should play an MMO (or Hackmaster)... it rewards players for being psychotic murderers... especially on PvP servers... and there are no consequences for being such. Role-playing is different... as it has to be enjoyable to everyone... including the GM. If the GM is tired of having players kill every single thing in sight just because the players find it fun... well... soon the players will be looking for someone new to run their games.

Razorwing wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:I agree for the most part, Razorwing, but if your campaign evolves into an NPC revenge story, and the players wanted an epic no consequence tale of their own badassery, then you've got a real problem, and suddenly no gaming group.

I'm not into revenge... but actions have consequences... and the longer players think that they can do anything and everything they want without any regard for anything... the worse a game will get.

If your players are supposed to be heroes (Scrupulous, Principled and even Unprincipled alignments), yet their characters are killing indiscriminately... then at the very least their alignments should be slipping towards Anarchist, Miscreant and even Diabolic. If they are acting like thugs and bandits, then sooner or later a "real" hero will come along to bring righteous justice upon them for the actions they can't deny happened (because they have been boasting of it).

If they wanted consequenceless badassery... they should play an MMO (or Hackmaster)... it rewards players for being psychotic murderers... especially on PvP servers... and there are no consequences for being such. Role-playing is different... as it has to be enjoyable to everyone... including the GM. If the GM is tired of having players kill every single thing in sight just because the players find it fun... well... soon the players will be looking for someone new to run their games.

Indiscriminate murder is one thing, but when it comes to fighting the supernatural, killing with great prejudice is somewhat justified. Most dragons in canon are selfish to evil with terrible strength and potent powers, and it's quite understandable that a reasonable person could have a "kill on sight" policy against such creatures before they become unbeatable adults. I find myself in an unusual circumstance in which I somewhat agree with Say652. Given how nasty dragons frequently get as they age, I don't see this as a "My party murdered a poor child" situation.

That said, I also think that violence in the game should have consequences. I don't see this as a crime so much as a tragedy, and I would play up the tragedy of it, rather than the criminality of it. I'd probably introduce an old crone or hermit NPC who had befriended the baby dragon, show that NPC's grief (which could start as almost comic, like the Rancor's keeper in Return of the Jedi or some scenes from Fantastic Beasts), and then have the NPC explain what a terrible thing the party had done. My goal for this "the reason you suck" guilt-tripping speech would be character development. A truly good character should feel profound pity for the slain hatchling and remorse, and might even decline to butcher the corpse.

That's when I'd have the NPC insist that the characters take a piece of this "murdered baby" with them, lest they forget the lessons of that dark day. While these badges of shame can be beneficial (and there are lots of canon ways to do that; dragon helm, permanent ward sewn into their skin), they will also be constant reminders of the lesson they (hopefully) learned that day.

My thoughts exactly, we're being attacked by Brodkil, Spiny Ravager riding Simvan, Tigerclaw Raptors, a greater Demon and this strange beast shows up in the midst of that.

Yea I'm going at the new threat just as hard as the monsters I've been fighting.

Lieutenant Colonel Winston Elmer Gravely.
Is an Aberrant evil Cyborg Soldier with over 140 years of field experience.

One of his first Nemesis's was a Great Horned Dragon Hatching, Dragons are extremely dangerous often evil and not something to be taken lightly.

Kill on sight is a very effective defense against them.

Let's see... the dragon in question wasn't attacking them at all... it was trying to flee them. They mercilessly hunted it down... and continued to attack it even after it was begging for its life.

Would you do something like that to another person? Of course you wouldn't. Dragons may be powerful Creatures of Magic (not Supernatural Beings like demons)... and while many do act selfish or evil... just as many are good. Had this dragon survived... how do you think it would treat any other humans it would have encountered? Well... since the only humans it had met to that point attacked it and tried to kill it... chances are it would see humans as monsters and would either avoid or kill them on sight. You may see this as justification for what they did... kill a monster before it becomes a monster... but they would have been the ones responsible for making this dragon into such a monster. Had they left it alone... it may not have become a monster.

Simply put... you are trying to justify the murder of a sentient creature solely on what it may do in the future. In the future, you may decide to become a terrorist and use a plane to murder thousands of people... does that give me the right to kill you now before you become such a monster? Of course not... because you haven't done anything wrong yet. This dragon hadn't done anything wrong except scare a few easily frightened farmers (who would likely jump at their own shadows in such a dangerous world)... and yet that was justification enough to kill a creature that obviously had no ill will towards anyone (since it tried to flee rather than attack)... just because it might be dangerous one day in the future.

Actions like this should and must have consequences. Yes, the players were Coalition Soldiers (apparently), and as such are predisposed to attack such a creature... but even then, there will still be consequences for doing so. Wasting ammo on something that wasn't a threat... possibly alerting enemies to their presence which in turn could expose a major operation in progress (threatening its completion). Both of these could get the group reprimanded by High Command. If they did attract the attention of an Adult Dragon (the mother of the one they killed), then they would be responsible for bringing a powerful enemy down upon the heads of whatever unit they are connected with... a threat that could and should have been avoided. While the Coalition hates anyone who isn't human... most tend to prefer merely chasing powerful creatures like dragons out of their territory than killing them. It is usually easier and wastes less ammo... not to mention the lives of soldiers. While it is possible such creature may return to extract revenge (especially the more demonic), others will feel that it is just too much wasted effort to return to a hostile area... especially when there is so much more area to live in. The Coalition States tends to take a very pragmatic view... with so many enemies to fight, one has to pick their battles carefully... least they stir up a hornet's nest. Taking on a young dragon... or any dragon for that matter... is a serious undertaking that mere grunts shouldn't decide to do on their own. Who knows who and what else may be in the area... and will be attracted to the commotion such a fire fight may cause (again... could alter enemy forces that there are soldiers in the area, exposing whatever larger mission they are on).

In the end, their accomplishment for killing a dragon is likely to be commended... but their actions are likely to be viewed as reckless and potentially insubordinate. Disciplinary action is likely to take place... especially if they may have compromised other operations in the area (by drawing unwanted attention). Just because one is a Coalition Soldier doesn't give one license to kill non-humans indiscriminately. True, it will have less consequences in some respects... but also other (possibly serious) ones in other respects. Just look at what happened in the Juicer Uprising.

The do gooders whined, my scumbag Merc partner was like seriously Bro?
Gravy, felt he did the world a service killing a deadly foe.
Sometimes you have to make the hard choice.