Should the propsed Robotech Tactics Scenario book be free?

[wilycoyote]

The latest PBWU suggests that a new scenario book is being worked on.

As a gesture of goodwill to the backers of the project and in part compensation for the three years and counting delays, should Palladium offer this as a free downloadable PDF - possibly with the very much delayed conventional rules?

[Mike1975]

Considering the fact that even the simplest of things such as a cheat sheet or Force Orgs that was given to them, under the assumption that they should be done up with PB's standard TM and Pics and more plastered on them, things that occupied only a single sheet or just a few, and was told that they could be put up for $1 or 2......I don't think this will EVER happen with any PB product.

[Alpharius]

The latest PBWU suggests that a new scenarion book is being worked on.

As a gesture of goodwill to the backers of the project and in part compensation for the three years and counting delays, should Palladium offer this as a free downloadable PDF - possibly with the very much delayed conventional rules?

The answer is simple, and it is...

...yes.

[wilycoyote]

I agree Mike that it is unlikely, but I am thinking more that it could be in part a olive branch to backers. This could be a continuation of the decision to upload the missing cards - albeit these were already funded via the KS and the actual cards would be sent with Wave 2.

You could charge whatever for the book, but backers could be given a voucher code to allow them to donload for free, but the physical copies would still have to be paid for

[jaymz]

The latest PBWU suggests that a new scenario book is being worked on.

And has been for....well almost 3 years IIRC.

[Mike1975]

Sorry for being cynical, but if you expect some free materials of any type this is the wrong place to look. If you want to play with some updated stuff, you'll have to look outside of the PB/RRT world for it.

[Alpha 11]

Yes free, or at the very least cost VERY little to buy.

[wilycoyote]

Cynasism aside, if there is to be a move to revive RTT, then there would have to be some sort of "loss leaders" to encourage /entice people back in.

That said the current position of the game - almost certainaly dead in the waer - would not seem to be something that PB would be prioritising above the physical wave 2 items, if the expectation is a revival of the game itself or a large return in sales

[ZINO]

yes i think it should

[Spinachcat]

They should sell a physical copy of the RTT scenario book.

RTT backers should get a free PDF.

That's both fair to backers, free for PB and they make money on the book from future RTT sales.

[Alpha 11]

They should sell a physical copy of the RTT scenario book.

RTT backers should get a free PDF.

That's both fair to backers, free for PB and they make money on the book from future RTT sales.

That might be a good compromise.

[wilycoyote]

Following the latest PBWU, getting the backers a free PDF would seem to be a simple gesture to make, given that WAve 2 production will not begin till mid 2017 at least, making non US receipt more likely in 2018 - around twice the models , plus resins and cardstock to produce , receive and ship out. Shrugs, so it will then be five years?

As for the "Ghost Fleet" material, I leave that to PB. I see this aimed more at the existing RPGers rather than miniature players simplly as the requisite models will not be available so no real reason to fork out more money

[jaymz]

I find it amusing that anyone thinks there will actually be future rrt sales....

[eliakon]

Why would anyone try to do anything like an "Olive branch" to the "backers"?
I am an outsider here sure...
...but everything I have seen to me indicates that the 'backers' have already decided that Palladium is malicious and out to get them.
Since everything that is done has already been projected through the lens of "what take is the most malicious here" and then assuming that is the cause I don't see any reason for Palladium to do something that is just going to get a negative ulterior motive attached and then be used as 'proof' of their vile intentions.

If Palladium does this it will just be described as a cheap attempt to bribe people.
If they don't then it will be seen as malicious jibe.

At this point it seems that ANYTHING Palladium does will not make the backers happy and will be used against them...
...so honestly why would someone even bother trying to do something for people that seem to solely exist to harm you and take any goodwill as proof of evil?

[Marcus]

Why would anyone try to do anything like an "Olive branch" to the "backers"?
I am an outsider here sure...
...but everything I have seen to me indicates that the 'backers' have already decided that Palladium is malicious and out to get them.
Since everything that is done has already been projected through the lens of "what take is the most malicious here" and then assuming that is the cause I don't see any reason for Palladium to do something that is just going to get a negative ulterior motive attached and then be used as 'proof' of their vile intentions.

If Palladium does this it will just be described as a cheap attempt to bribe people.
If they don't then it will be seen as malicious jibe.

At this point it seems that ANYTHING Palladium does will not make the backers happy and will be used against them...
...so honestly why would someone even bother trying to do something for people that seem to solely exist to harm you and take any goodwill as proof of evil?

Not a backer myself and not sure if you aren't trolling...
But what did PB do to make the backers happy that got used against them?

[Morgan Vening]

Why would anyone try to do anything like an "Olive branch" to the "backers"?
I am an outsider here sure...
...but everything I have seen to me indicates that the 'backers' have already decided that Palladium is malicious and out to get them.
Since everything that is done has already been projected through the lens of "what take is the most malicious here" and then assuming that is the cause I don't see any reason for Palladium to do something that is just going to get a negative ulterior motive attached and then be used as 'proof' of their vile intentions.

If Palladium does this it will just be described as a cheap attempt to bribe people.
If they don't then it will be seen as malicious jibe.

At this point it seems that ANYTHING Palladium does will not make the backers happy and will be used against them...
...so honestly why would someone even bother trying to do something for people that seem to solely exist to harm you and take any goodwill as proof of evil?

Not a backer myself and not sure if you aren't trolling...
But what did PB do to make the backers happy that got used against them?

I'd be interested to know that too.

Eliakon is making the same mistake that PB appear to be making. As I see it, there are four groups of backers, for better or worse. The cynics, the disappointed, the apathetic and the hopeful. While the cynics aren't (and have never been) as small as PB have claimed, they're nowhere near the majority, let alone a large one. Yet whenever there's backlash, it's held up as the "reason" that PB shouldn't do any outreach. Even though it's been SHOWN that good and frequent communication and respect for backers helps move towards hopeful, and silence and vagueness move people more towards cynical.

Heck, I've given them kudos when they've released a good Update, even if it's had a "they need to keep this up" caveat. Because it's the inconsistency and silence that gets people frustrated. PB need to stop thinking of backers as some kind of monolithic block that only thinks one way. There are still people that can be swayed. But the longer they remain silent, and appear to be doing nothing (even if they aren't), and don't offer the occasional olive branch now that they're almost three years late, and many broken promises behind, the less people will give them the benefit of the doubt.

If they're not willing to appeal to the majority of backers that aren't openly hostile at this point, then they might as well just close up shop on the project. Because any chance that it has to "reboot" gets smaller the longer this drags out while indirectly antagonizing backers.

[wilycoyote]

Well said Mrgan

The issue is to a great exrent (beyond the 3 year delay) lack of communication and any show from PB of progress - over three months without an official update on Kickstarter shows this. Another example is the latest PBWU, that has more words about the upcoming Rifts boardgame KS, than RTT news/updates. It is onro this empty vacumm, that the speculation and sometimes downright hostility towards PB is directed.

A free PDF is not going to change the minds of some but it could be part of a healing process for the rifts (pardon the pun) between the company and its backers. That said it would not work in isolation, PB really do have to change their ways and keep to their promises of more frequent,more open and meaningful communication

[Jefffar]

Why would anyone try to do anything like an "Olive branch" to the "backers"?
I am an outsider here sure...
...but everything I have seen to me indicates that the 'backers' have already decided that Palladium is malicious and out to get them.
Since everything that is done has already been projected through the lens of "what take is the most malicious here" and then assuming that is the cause I don't see any reason for Palladium to do something that is just going to get a negative ulterior motive attached and then be used as 'proof' of their vile intentions.

If Palladium does this it will just be described as a cheap attempt to bribe people.
If they don't then it will be seen as malicious jibe.

At this point it seems that ANYTHING Palladium does will not make the backers happy and will be used against them...
...so honestly why would someone even bother trying to do something for people that seem to solely exist to harm you and take any goodwill as proof of evil?

Eli,

There are over 5000 backers. While certainly a vocal subset of that group has made a lot of noise about their issues with this Kickstarter, that doesn't mean the rest of the backer group feels or acts the same way.

Indeed those in the vocal group often lament in other forums about just how small a portion of the backer community they seem to be.

So it's best not to judge the backer community overall, which includes many long term Palladium fans, by what a small groups of backers has said and done.

It be just as unfair as judging all Palladium fans by the small number of them that actively talk down about other game companies, game systems and their fans.

[Forar]

If anything, it appears to be a standard parabola of opinion. Some expressing extreme displeasure, some expressing unwavering support, but the majority seems to have given into apathy.

Where are the battle reports? The requests for rules clarification? The pics of painted minis and epic conflicts in action? The escalation leagues at local stores? The tournaments? The tactics podcasts? The signs that players are excited and engaged and thirsty for more?

Do they exist? Sure. Do they exist in any substantial numbers, week to week, month to month? Doesn't seem so. The weekly Newsletters and front page and Facebook page are perfect places to advertise events, even ones in far flung locales.

It's not going to be 'a couple of dudes raging on the internet' that kills this game (or finishes the job on its way there), it's the silence. My forays into minis wargaming have been limited, but one need not have a thousand painted Warhammer figures to see that the infrequent comments here and on the Kickstarter and elsewhere (Hi Dakka!) aren't indicative of anything good. Even if PB is handling rules responses left and right using the Help Desk, the official FAQ was last updated over a year and a half ago. So evidently if there are questions coming in, they aren't enough to spur further errata.

The most active threads here are often critical, which means they either generally get deleted, locked, or renditioned to a black site for 'correction', coming back a few weeks later looking a bit thinner and more haggard for it.

[Morgan Vening]

Yup. It's easy to want to claim that the "silent majority" are one side or the other. The only accurate way to assess it, is that the silent are silent. Whether that's because they're apathetic, happy to wait, or checked out, is irrelevant for the gaming community. The fact of the matter, as Forar pointed out, is that the "community" that usually springs up around a game, is almost non-existent when it comes to RRT. On these Forums, you've got one person regularly wanting to discuss the game itself (Hi, Alpha!). Over on Dakka, you've got three (though one appears to be done, and the other two are quite critical). BGG is pretty much empty.

Meaning that either the critical faction of the backerbase is much larger than it's claimed (it's not), or it's almost supernatural in it's volume (again, it's not). Or that most backers aren't engaged enough to bother. It's possible that there are "secret" places on the internet that have a vibrant and active community. But if they're that hidden, then it does nothing for people new to the game, or considering getting into it. If the number of "critics" was insignificant when compared to the number of "fans", this wouldn't be the case. Especially on places that are easily moderated, like these Forums.

And as I've said before, the lack of participation or interest from PB themselves, or those higher up in the volunteer/MA/freelancer hierarchy, is telling. If noone at PB gives a damn, and noone with any influence gives a damn (other than to moderate breaches of T&C), why should the playerbase? There are many things that could be discussed. And they're not. And that is bad, moving forward.

[jaymz]

Yeah even the old proboard i created that had steady traffic though not a lot has seemingly died as well.

[Forar]

And as I've pointed out in the past, the 'angry backers' represent a positive in a way. Those are people who are passionate, they are engaged, they WANT the product, they want it badly enough to complain and check in for months and years. Yes, some are just 'trolls', some are muckrakers, some just want what they paid for, but some (if not many) represent a consumer base who has followed this (admitted train wreck) for over a third of a decade.

They ponied up hundreds of dollars per person ($270 on average, if I recall correctly) half a year before the first delivery target, kept adding another 150k+ (according to Wayne) up to September during the Pledge Manager, even when it was looking more and more like the December 2013 target would be missed. Which is charmingly quaint these days, but remember PB was still telling us that FULL delivery should occur in the first few months of 2014 at that point, and it wasn't until Jan 2014 that the notion of two waves and significant delays were even admitted to.

Love and Hate are closer on the spectrum than a lot of people give credit for, they represent passion. Even misplaced anger is indicative that the person cares, even if much of that has soured to something less constructive.

Apathy is much worse. If the person no longer cares whether you deliver or not, hey, at least they're not whining on the forums or facebook page anymore, but they also represent hundreds or thousands of lost opportunities. An engaged customer, especially one who ponied up roughly $300 sight unseen for stuff, is often the kind of customer who buys copious expansions, who might be tempted to try out other items in the product line. 5k+ random nerds around the world is pretty significant buying power, especially when they are engaged enough to want to build those leagues, run store tournaments, engage each other on the forums, start painting competitions, and more. I've seen guys build a local Netrunner community practically through sheer force of will. Run escalation leagues for B and C tier minis games with minimal support from the home office. It's not impossible, but it takes more than 'being treated like a mushroom' (if you catch my drift), which I think the last 2 years in particular have shown to be the case.

[The Beast]

In my opinion, a cheap attempt to bribe people would show that Palladium books cares about this project and its investors much more than the same-old, same-old copypasta they post each week currently does.

Petty tyrants thrive when they have authority backed by vague regulations.

[LtPebbles]

The pics of painted minis and epic conflicts in action?

Well, they won't be posted here because images aren't allowed.

For a hobby game, with paint jobs, conversions, terrain and other bits of modeling, that's a silly policy. Visuals are an important way to communicate in this hobby and text alone does not cover it. I think the no-images policy hurt the community far more than it helped.

[LtPebbles]

Oh, and the proposed Robotech Tactics Scenario book should not be free, IMO. That income could be the tipping point that allows Wave 2 to happen!

[jaymz]

^only if you can get the backers to buy it which damn bloody unlikely.

[Morgan Vening]

Oh, and the proposed Robotech Tactics Scenario book should not be free, IMO. That income could be the tipping point that allows Wave 2 to happen!

Yeah, I don't see that happening. Firstly, I can't see more than a fraction of the backers paying out money for a scenario book, in advance of Wave 2 shipping. Even if the vast majority of backers did so, assuming that after development costs, the book nets $10 apiece (either as a PDF, or at an increased cost to make as a hardcopy), that's only $50,000. If that's all that's held back Wave 2, then it's pretty weak that backers who are approaching three years in arrears on the product they paid for well in advance, are required to fund it.

That's not to mention the obvious PR issues there are with Palladium putting out their hand for material when they've shown no real evidence of progress in a while, and multiple announcements of "soon" have slid past, often without comment (ie, this past Spring/Summer "heating up", and Summer becoming Winter with no real acknowledgment of the timeline being missed).

Honestly, I don't think the profits from potential sales would come close to mitigating the backlash from backers. Yes, the critics would have a field day, but this could push some on the fence into that camp. As can be seen from the latest page of the RRT Comments, more and more previously "silent" backers have started voicing their dissatisfaction.

I'm a part of another Kickstarter campaign that tried to do something much less egregious (an additional Wave of "completed to date" product, if backers paid shipping, and releasing a second Kickstarter before the first had concluded, despite visual evidence that it's almost ready to ship), and they've been routinely berated and accused of impropriety. This would be a much worse situation, starting from a much worse position. I could see this being one of the worst (though probably not the worst) issues that PB have blundered into, if they try to get money in advance, especially if it's before Wave 2 is ready to ship, moreso before Wave 2 looks to be ready.

[Tiree]

I am not a backer - and I doubt that giving away 'Free' product would do anything. But there is quite a bit of 'Free' RPG Tactics on Drive Thru, that right there may be their way of saying "SEE SEE, WE ARE SUPPORTIVE"

What I would like to see Palladium do, is a bit unconventional... Support Conventions. Hire Staff, send a freelancer, get SOMEONE out to those conventions and make their product shine! Get Harmony Gold to provide SWAG or additional support through Tommy Yune actually playing a game... something to make RRT out there at the conventions.

Otherwise what's the point? Who wants to play a game that nobody plays?

[jaymz]

That "free" stuff is stuff that was not really needed/wanted, we are going to get anyway, or was already was out there via the playtesters (wave two game cards) or something anyone with irfanview and a printer could themselves, and have (wave two printable "minis") so no sorry they get no credit for any of that as it's things (corrected assembly instructions) any and every normal company would do in the first place.


As for the rest....I and others have tried...and tried...and tried again to tell them this.....we gave up and sadly we WERE the only real support this game actually had.

[Mike1975]

This whole thing is like going to a gaming convention. You go to play your something like Malifaux, all your painted and ready minis in hand but the few reps there decided that they were going to play D and D instead because they were not familiar or comfortable with the rules for Malifaux and the minis they brought sucked and were poorly painted. Not to mention that the supporters at the convention are also avid RPG fans and not really minis gamers.

Then, as you walk around asking them questions about Malifaux and minis they get annoyed that you would ask what are the future plans and when new stuff is coming out because they are busy playing D and D. You even offer support and offer to play some Malifaux for them to show some support and they are not interested at all and they go back to their RPG. You even have the gall to ask them about some of the future products that are coming "soon" that you have already paid for and still get ignored or given flippant promises so that they can go back to playing their RPG.

Who would support something like this? Even IF they offered a freebie like a $2 handout or a special mini at a high cost, would that help? If they simply told me that they were working on something for the game and that I would see it "soon" why would I support it?

In this case I have a couple options.
1. I can finish out what I have and play with a few friends or even solo every now and then knowing that new material is unlikely to come anytime "soon".
2. I can sell it all off.
3. I can keep the minis and maybe use them for other games. (Personally this is my plan and the reason I'm making my own rules to do just that)
4. I can throw it all in the trash can and move on and call it a day.

I might be missing a few options here but these are the majors.