Smart Missile Volleys and subsequent strike rolls

[Axelmania]

I know when you fire a volley that it's a single strike roll, but I'm not sure how that works with smart missiles who can make additional attacks if they miss or get dodged.

Would those additional attacks also be launched as a volley, or would they split off and operate alone?

Like for example, say I have 2 smart missiles. If I wanted to induce twice as many dodges from a target each melee would I need to fire them individually as a non-volley, or would I get that result naturally after the first attack was dodged?

Aside from how many dodges you can induce, whether a 4+ smart volley stayed together would also be an issue as to whether or not dodging was an option at all, since if it stayed together after the first failed strike (possibly a miss, though you'd need something to induce strike penalties like a jamming system or cyber-knight to make that possibly on a +5) you'd have to rely on misses or shoot-downs or block-sacrifices instead of dodges.

I don't recall how many melee rounds a smart missile stays active for, their duration might have been based on their distance in which case that's probably a lot of math for the GM to deal with... it probably doesn't come up much since most players will have ranged attacks and will try to shoot down smart missiles rather than spend actions on dodges... but since there could be characters without ranged combat, knowing whether dodging is an option after the first volley (does the volley split?) or how many dodges you'd need to make to avoid a split volley (outside of Ninjas and Superspies, a normal dodge only works against 1 attack) is required.

I assume that if you fired off smart missiles separately, they would make their own initiative rolls and attack separately in the melee round, but if smart missiles were fired as a volley I don't know whether to treat them as separate entities with separate attacks per melee in subsequent melee rounds, or whether to continue to treat them as a single entity like you do in a volley.

[Glistam]

Smart missiles in a volley re-roll once for the entire volley if they miss. This is in line with Palladium's combat rules.

[Alrik Vas]

Smart missiles in a volley re-roll once for the entire volley if they miss. This is in line with Palladium's combat rules.

Yep.

Change it if you want, say your way makes sense if you want, but that's how it works.

[Axelmania]

Okay, but what happens if for some reason one of the smart missiles loses a melee attack but the others don't? Like for example if I body block / tackle or body flip it or if a cyber-knight uses their anti-tech powers which they can only use against 1 opponent at low levels?

Would the unaffected members of the volley continue to attack as a smaller volley while the other somehow remains behind but then regroups with them the following melee? Or would it just disrupt the entire volley just by disrupting 1?

[eliakon]

I don't see how there is a question...
...things take their action on their turn,
If the missile has lost its turn then it can't attack.
Otherwise all the missiles all take their turn at the same time.

[Glistam]

Body Flip... a missile...?

[Axelmania]

Hey, unless there's some rule against body-flipping stuff, you can body-flip anything

Theoretically you should be able to entangle a missile too, although I'm not sure what would prevent it from self-destructing to hit you if kept immobile... but that would only work if you were the designated target, so you could entangle it to prevent it from continuing to pursue an ally.

Eliakon the issue is, if smart missiles operate as a volley, but then one loses an attack and can no longer operate in the volley on that attack, does it rejoin the volley once that lost attack has passed or does it remain a distinct entity attacking separately now that it's been broken off?

[glitterboy2098]

since smart missiles fired as a volley would also co-ordinate between themselves to stay a volley, treat the whole volley as a single entity. if one missile gets effected by an ability that reduced attacks or init, apply that to the whole volley as the others adjust to compensate and stay together.


also i would point out that most missiles would, due to impact and proximity triggers, likely detonate if bodyflipped or entangled, whether the person doing it is the original target or not.

[Alrik Vas]

The opponent is the operator of the mechanism that fired the missile. Not the missile itself.

I realize "smart" missiles are kind of a special case as they have APM and dodge etc, but a cyberknight is a really bad example because the missile wouldn't be able to see them anyway...

Lastly, body flipping a missile falls well under the "if it doesn't make sense, don't use it" idea of GM imperative. If you're big enough and strong enough to flip a missile coming at you far beyond the speed of sound...oh wait, it doesn't matter because it'll explode on you anyway.

[Axelmania]

since smart missiles fired as a volley would also co-ordinate between themselves to stay a volley, treat the whole volley as a single entity. if one missile gets effected by an ability that reduced attacks or init, apply that to the whole volley as the others adjust to compensate and stay together.

That sounds kind of awesome, so if I can't inflict enough damage to detonate a missile in the volley, I can simply tackle one of the missiles in the volley to divert the entire thing from hitting my friend?

also i would point out that most missiles would, due to impact and proximity triggers, likely detonate if bodyflipped or entangled, whether the person doing it is the original target or not.

If that were the case then shooting a missile with physical ammunition should detonate it regardless of whether I inflict enough MDC to destroy it? Even a 1 MD shot from a ramjet round is going to have way more impact than a 1D4 to 1D6 SDC tackle or body flip. I've gotta assume damage and force are somewhat proportional here.

Heck if 1D4-1D6 worth of SDC is enough to trigger a missile detonation, I wouldn't even bother wasting my E-Clips I'd just chuck rocks at them.

The opponent is the operator of the mechanism that fired the missile. Not the missile itself.

I think that would only apply to unguided missiles. Self-Guided and Smart missiles become distinct attackers with their own bonuses.

I realize "smart" missiles are kind of a special case as they have APM and dodge etc, but a cyberknight is a really bad example because the missile wouldn't be able to see them anyway...

Cyber-Knights aren't totally invisible to technlogy, that's more the realm of the major super ability 'Cloaking'. Defensively speaking, their level 4 ability just negates bonuses from it (so no +3 or +5 to strike them) and gives them a +6 initiative bonus to react faster. Being a tech-laden opponent, a smart missile's 2 attacks per melee at -2 would be 0.

Hm just realized... smart missiles were a lot better in RMB before the 2 for living got introduced weren't they?

Anyway since the level 4 power only works on 1 opponent, they couldn't reduce the actions of other smart missiles, although how that works in respect to volleys is also gray.

I'm also not sure how a Cyber-Knight goes about switching primary opponents to focus on. To prevent constant switching on the fly, something like "choose one every time you roll initiative" or "spend an action to change the opponent" would seem fair.

Lastly, body flipping a missile falls well under the "if it doesn't make sense, don't use it" idea of GM imperative. If you're big enough and strong enough to flip a missile coming at you far beyond the speed of sound...oh wait, it doesn't matter because it'll explode on you anyway.

Would it though? I think that would only apply if you parry or flip a missile with the part of your body it was aimed at. If a missile is set to detonate upon touching your main body and your intercept it with your hands, it hasn't successfully reached its target.

Proximity sensors don't appear to counteract the "Deflect" spell for example, which is an energy aura around the hands which allows the parrying of missiles.

Body flips are normally a strike, so I would apply the speed penalties under ranged combat. Even though these are in the ranged combat section it would seem reasonably to apply them in all situations.

You'd need an automatic body flip to actually use it as a defense to prevent an attack. Otherwise it would just be a simultaneous strike and you'd get hit first.

The use of a normal body flip attack is basically just something I'm proposing to protect an ally (like shooting down a missile headed for an ally) or if it's one of those missiles which can attack over and over (like a bottled demon from the United Worlds of Warlock).

One rare situation where it could also be valuable to simultaneous attack a smart missile is if it somehow misses you, because then your simultaneous body flip attack against it prevents its next APM against you.

A smart missile missing is kinda rare though... there would need to be a bunch of penalties for that to happen. That can happen with a Cyber-Knight though since it negates the +5 so it's an unmodified D20 which could miss.

Although it's only useful at level 4, since they get an auto-dodge at level 5 which is probably a better defense against smart missiles.

[Alrik Vas]

I was going to /quote reply the crap out of your last post, but I don't think it would have gone in any direction that would resolve my issued with your statements, so I'll just go with this:

Why do you think it's possible to body flip a missile?

[Axelmania]

They're bodies in motion so they have momentum that can be redirected. It's not like I'm talking about flipping a stationary object like a wall or a turret or something.

Cancelling out factors like speed and looking just at their shape, I think I'd have a much easier time swatting a medium-range smart missile than a Titan Juicer sprinting at me. A fixed mass which rotates together, no small wrist to grab.

Obviously since it's flying it won't necessarily hit the ground (just like I wouldn't expect a mid-air body flip against a flying gargoyle 100 feet up to send them into the ground) but it should still lose the attack from being tossed around unexpectedly.

I think a body block / tackle should have the same effect, the difference being, if that destroyed the missile then you'd definitely be in its blast radius (arguably enough to be considered a direct hit) whereas traditionally I envision the damage of a body flip coming from hitting the ground, not from being thrown, so an airborn body flip might not do damage to the missile and cause it to rupture.

[Alrik Vas]

Can you body throw a bullet?

[Axelmania]

I wouldn't be opposed to a very strong/fast/small being making the attempt. Although I wouldn't see the point when parry bonuses are generally higher than body throw bonuses.

You can in theory shoot a bullet or catch a bullet too. In all of these situations the GM would have to come up with pretty intense penalties to represent the difficulty.

Getting technical to the semantics of a body flip, since it uses an "attacker's momentum", you could rule that bullets and unguided missiles are not attackers so they don't fall within the scope of the wording.

Self-guided and Smart missiles are certainly attackers though, so it should be possible to flip them.

Missiles are bigger than bullets and I believe leave a visible trail so it should be easier to target them.

[Nekira Sudacne]

if you body block a missile, it could simul-attack you by detonating for direct hit damage

[The Beast]

if you body block a missile, it could simul-attack you by detonating for direct hit damage

Petty tyrants thrive when they have authority backed by vague regulations.

[guardiandashi]

if you body block a missile, it could simul-attack you by detonating for direct hit damage

I think I agree. if someone was dumb enough to TRY to body block/flip/tackle a missile I could totally see the missile choosing to immediately detonate, causing them full damage, not because the attack did any damage, but because the missile would "decide" that it can't get to its primary target, so its going to attack the "target" interfering, oh wait its in proximity... good enough.

[Axelmania]

if you body block a missile, it could simul-attack you by detonating for direct hit damage

Only if it had attacks left. Using actions when you're out of them is limited to dodges.

if someone was dumb enough to TRY to body block/flip/tackle a missile I could totally see the missile choosing to immediately detonate, causing them full damage, not because the attack did any damage, but because the missile would "decide" that it can't get to its primary target, so its going to attack the "target" interfering, oh wait its in proximity... good enough.

Who says the missile has the capability of doing that? If my block/tackle or flip results in it running out of actions then it can't do anything but dodge by bowering powers from the next melee.

I don't think even a smart missile is described as being capable of changing it's designated target like this.

If I for example shot a smart missile at an ogre and then he dodged it and someone else killed the ogre with a laser pistol, I think the smart missile would still just impact on his corpse.

[Nekira Sudacne]

if you body block a missile, it could simul-attack you by detonating for direct hit damage

Only if it had attacks left. Using actions when you're out of them is limited to dodges.

Well...yes? I'm not sure why you feel the need to bring up "No, that's only correct if you use it within the context in which it's correct". Responding to "You can use Simultanious attack" with "No, you can only use simultanious attack in contexts which simultanious attacks are applicable". Well...yea? that goes without saying

Do you also feel compelled to respond to "I shoot him" with "only if your character has access to a gun and approriate e-clips or other ammunition/power/PPE source"? At some point, you have to assume the basic rules of the game are still in play, and the other person already knows this

if someone was dumb enough to TRY to body block/flip/tackle a missile I could totally see the missile choosing to immediately detonate, causing them full damage, not because the attack did any damage, but because the missile would "decide" that it can't get to its primary target, so its going to attack the "target" interfering, oh wait its in proximity... good enough.

Who says the missile has the capability of doing that? If my block/tackle or flip results in it running out of actions then it can't do anything but dodge by bowering powers from the next melee.

I do have to quibble with this. Simultanious attack occurs simultaniously, before your body block is resolved. that means you don't apply the loss of an attack /before/ it simul attacks and then check to see if it has any left. it spends one attack to detonate at the same moment of impact, then it looses an attack if it has any left (not that it matters, sinse it was destroyed). but the same thing happens if you have two crazies body blocking each-other for a few rounds. if both crazies have 5 attacks per melee level 1, and the crazy who wins init (crazy A), body blocks the other one (Crazy B), , then what happens is they roll and (Assuming they both roll over 5, sinse a simul attack can still technically miss if it's 4 or lower after modifiers), both use one attack when they declare attack/simultanious attack, then both lose one due to body block tackle. next turn, he body blocks again, and is another simul, again both hit, both use one and lose one. now they only have one left each. Crazy A declares attack, spends his last one, Crazy B declares simul attack, uses his last one. THEN both lose an attack, but sinse they're already out of attacks it's moot.

also this brings up an unrelated question: body block tackle results in the victem looses initative and one attack. if you simul a body block with a body block, they both loose init, so...assuming both still have an attack left, who goes first? Technically they are both knocked below the other in init order at exactly the same moment...

I would also like to note one final thing: the penalties for moving fast moving targets. depending on the missle type, the missiles are traveling hundreds to thousands of miles per hour. the penalties are -1 strike for 20 MPH, and another -1 per 50 beyond that. mini-plasma missle has a speed of 1200 MPH. That's a grand total of -23 to strike the missile. At those speeds the missile likely dosn't have to do anything, the average attack from someone with average bonuses to strike will be reduced into the negative to-hit and automatically fail.

And that's a mini missile. A long ranged nuclear multi-warhead doing evasive manvers on it's way to to releasing it's payload is a grand total of -40 to hit. at that point, even the most twinked out characters are reliant on a lucky natural 20.

Yes, you are allowed to shoot down missile volleys (or body block them) or body block them if you REALLY want. but it's not easy, in fact in many cases the only chance you have is to roll a natural 20 which hits regardless of modifiers.

[Axelmania]

I'm not sure why you feel the need to bring up "No, that's only correct if you use it within the context in which it's correct". Responding to "You can use Simultanious attack" with "No, you can only use simultanious attack in contexts which simultanious attacks are applicable". Well...yea? that goes without saying

Do you also feel compelled to respond to "I shoot him" with "only if your character has access to a gun and approriate e-clips or other ammunition/power/PPE source"? At some point, you have to assume the basic rules of the game are still in play, and the other person already knows this

I'm just pointing out that smart missiles only had 2 to begin with, and if they spent action 1 attacking my friend and I body-block them and make them lose their 2nd action, then they would already be out and unable to simultaneously attack me.

So the only time it would really be an issue would be with higher-end smart missiles (like the naruni drones) which have more than 2 attacks per melee.

it can't do anything but dodge by bowering powers from the next melee.

I do have to quibble with this. Simultanious attack occurs simultaniously, before your body block is resolved. that means you don't apply the loss of an attack /before/ it simul attacks and then check to see if it has any left.

Hm by 'bowering powers' I think I meant 'borrowing actions' ...

I see your point. Assuming a missile actually could do this (the way they work, I don't see any indication the AI has such a choice of target-swap) then I guess they could spend it first and my action from a block or flip would come off the next melee round.

It's just just a matter of 'it chooses to detonate' though. It has to roll a strike as normal, meaning it can miss, even if I am tackling it, because it's not just a matter of making contact, but proper timing of the attack. There's no guarantee it is able to detonate exactly when tackled, whether it can time its attack to a proper moment in space is reflected in needing to make a strike roll.

it spends one attack to detonate at the same moment of impact, then it looses an attack if it has any left (not that it matters, sinse it was destroyed).

It would only be destroyed if it successfully make a strike roll, which isn't a guarantee since there are ways to incur penalties on attackers.

also this brings up an unrelated question: body block tackle results in the victem looses initative and one attack. if you simul a body block with a body block, they both loose init, so...assuming both still have an attack left, who goes first? Technically they are both knocked below the other in init order at exactly the same moment...

On some other thread, the consensus seemed to be that whoever 'lost initiative' most recently would go at the end of the order...

This seems to be a raw deal for initiative-winning Juicer A getting simultaneously attacked by initiative-losing Crazy B though, because first you resolve Juicer A's attack (the crazy loses initiative, even though he was already at the bottom) and then you resolve the Crazy's attack (the Juicer loses initiative) so the Juicer's attack being resolved first actually has a negative effect for him, even though it's normally a positive one, having your damage counted first.

I would also like to note one final thing: the penalties for moving fast moving targets. depending on the missle type, the missiles are traveling hundreds to thousands of miles per hour. the penalties are -1 strike for 20 MPH, and another -1 per 50 beyond that. mini-plasma missle has a speed of 1200 MPH. That's a grand total of -23 to strike the missile. At those speeds the missile likely dosn't have to do anything, the average attack from someone with average bonuses to strike will be reduced into the negative to-hit and automatically fail.

Already mentioned above: "Body flips are normally a strike, so I would apply the speed penalties under ranged combat."

I sort of had in mind N&S where you could pump chi to get massive bonuses to body flips, like +30 or something.

And that's a mini missile. A long ranged nuclear multi-warhead doing evasive manvers on it's way to to releasing it's payload is a grand total of -40 to hit. at that point, even the most twinked out characters are reliant on a lucky natural 20.

I could manage to set up a chi flow of 50+...

A 5% chance of managing to deflect a missile sent at your friends is still possibly worth taking if they would otherwise definitely die.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I'm not sure why you feel the need to bring up "No, that's only correct if you use it within the context in which it's correct". Responding to "You can use Simultanious attack" with "No, you can only use simultanious attack in contexts which simultanious attacks are applicable". Well...yea? that goes without saying

Do you also feel compelled to respond to "I shoot him" with "only if your character has access to a gun and approriate e-clips or other ammunition/power/PPE source"? At some point, you have to assume the basic rules of the game are still in play, and the other person already knows this

I'm just pointing out that smart missiles only had 2 to begin with, and if they spent action 1 attacking my friend and I body-block them and make them lose their 2nd action, then they would already be out and unable to simultaneously attack me.

So the only time it would really be an issue would be with higher-end smart missiles (like the naruni drones) which have more than 2 attacks per melee.

it can't do anything but dodge by bowering powers from the next melee.

I do have to quibble with this. Simultanious attack occurs simultaniously, before your body block is resolved. that means you don't apply the loss of an attack /before/ it simul attacks and then check to see if it has any left.

Hm by 'bowering powers' I think I meant 'borrowing actions' ...

I see your point. Assuming a missile actually could do this (the way they work, I don't see any indication the AI has such a choice of target-swap) then I guess they could spend it first and my action from a block or flip would come off the next melee round.

It's just just a matter of 'it chooses to detonate' though. It has to roll a strike as normal, meaning it can miss, even if I am tackling it, because it's not just a matter of making contact, but proper timing of the attack. There's no guarantee it is able to detonate exactly when tackled, whether it can time its attack to a proper moment in space is reflected in needing to make a strike roll.

it spends one attack to detonate at the same moment of impact, then it looses an attack if it has any left (not that it matters, sinse it was destroyed).

It would only be destroyed if it successfully make a strike roll, which isn't a guarantee since there are ways to incur penalties on attackers.

Again--why do you act like i'm unfailiar with how "roll to strike" rules work? I didn't say "they can simultaniously detnoate if they successfully roll to strike" or "if they have an attack per melee left" because you ALWAYS have to roll successfully to strike with simultanious strike and always need to have an attack per melee left to attack--so saying it again and again this way is redundant. you don't need to point it out at all.

also this brings up an unrelated question: body block tackle results in the victem looses initative and one attack. if you simul a body block with a body block, they both loose init, so...assuming both still have an attack left, who goes first? Technically they are both knocked below the other in init order at exactly the same moment...

On some other thread, the consensus seemed to be that whoever 'lost initiative' most recently would go at the end of the order...

This seems to be a raw deal for initiative-winning Juicer A getting simultaneously attacked by initiative-losing Crazy B though, because first you resolve Juicer A's attack (the crazy loses initiative, even though he was already at the bottom) and then you resolve the Crazy's attack (the Juicer loses initiative) so the Juicer's attack being resolved first actually has a negative effect for him, even though it's normally a positive one, having your damage counted first.

Except you don't resolve Juicer A's attack first, you resolve them simultaniously.

I would also like to note one final thing: the penalties for moving fast moving targets. depending on the missle type, the missiles are traveling hundreds to thousands of miles per hour. the penalties are -1 strike for 20 MPH, and another -1 per 50 beyond that. mini-plasma missle has a speed of 1200 MPH. That's a grand total of -23 to strike the missile. At those speeds the missile likely dosn't have to do anything, the average attack from someone with average bonuses to strike will be reduced into the negative to-hit and automatically fail.

Already mentioned above: "Body flips are normally a strike, so I would apply the speed penalties under ranged combat."

I sort of had in mind N&S where you could pump chi to get massive bonuses to body flips, like +30 or something.

And that's a mini missile. A long ranged nuclear multi-warhead doing evasive manvers on it's way to to releasing it's payload is a grand total of -40 to hit. at that point, even the most twinked out characters are reliant on a lucky natural 20.

I could manage to set up a chi flow of 50+...

A 5% chance of managing to deflect a missile sent at your friends is still possibly worth taking if they would otherwise definitely die.

If you are talking about N&SS body flips, i'll point out that N&SS body flips require the opponent to be on the ground when you use it (you flip them off the ground), and thus cannot be used on flying enemies in the first place (you basically just give them a boost of speed, and they don't suffer damage or attack loss). You also can't grab them because grabbing missiles and bullets is also banned.

[Axelmania]

Except you don't resolve Juicer A's attack first, you resolve them simultaniously.

Sometimes there needs to be an order though. Like for example if CrazyA is doing a called shot on the vibro-knife of JuicerB and JuicerB simultaneously attacks with his vibro-knife, if A's attack did enough damage to destroy the knife then that could possibly nullify the present attack.

I don't think I've ever seen anywhere that a simultaneous attack is resolved concurrently, I think it's just often assumed based on the name. It actually says "simply attacks in response" so since it's a response, it happens after.

The advantage is just that your next attack can't be defended against with a parry/dodge/entangle if you forgo defense.

If you are talking about N&SS body flips, i'll point out that N&SS body flips require the opponent to be on the ground when you use it (you flip them off the ground), and thus cannot be used on flying enemies in the first place (you basically just give them a boost of speed, and they don't suffer damage or attack loss). You also can't grab them because grabbing missiles and bullets is also banned.

Maybe it just means they bounce off the ground after I throw them into it?

HU2p67 "off his feet and onto the ground" for example. Although that introduces the separate dilemma about feet since you're not really 'on' your feet if they're not bearing your weight due to flight.

I think a more general meaning worked in Rifts originally since it never was defined on page 35's glossary, just on the level advancement for HTH (8 basic/expert, 10 MA)

A valid point for using tackles against airborne opponents, but that would prevent the chi bonuses for the D20 rolls...

I suppose there's always the Rotary Palm Strike (page 105 under Taido) since it works as a knockdown attack. Soft Chi works with any moves that involve Turns/Spins/Circles in Taido (page 120) and rotation is basically spinning/turning.

This makes me wonder how the WP Trident body flip works in Rifts Underseas (page 212). Given the title of the book, I got the impression you could do a body flip to an opponent already in the water, but if we inherit the HU/NS defs, the only time you could do it would be someone standing on a boat or something.

It says "off his feet or upside down underwater" then "to the ground / down / over" so I guess that establishes it as an exception to the rules in water, although probably not in air. So it might help with torpedos but not airborne missiles...

I'm not even sure about torpedos though. Part of what balances this is the body flip becomes available after you catch/pin a "limb" (although the initial example says arm/hand/foot/weapon so I would say any projecting extremity) and torpedos normally wouldn't have that. I think they would be too smooth to catch/pin which means you couldn't set up missiles for a body flip unless they were some kind of weird modified missile that's given arms.

[Alrik Vas]

Wait...if the missile attacks and you simultaneous attack with a body block...the body block doesn't stop the attack, both happen. So you "knock down" a missile that explodes. There's nothing that suggests it's attack fails.

[Killer Cyborg]

Wait...if the missile attacks and you simultaneous attack with a body block...the body block doesn't stop the attack, both happen. So you "knock down" a missile that explodes. There's nothing that suggests it's attack fails.

Yup.