Are the South America books considered overpowered?
Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 2:50 pm
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In earlier arguments going on in these Forums, Carella's works were often called the father of Power Creep in the Rifts books.cyberdon wrote:......
kaid wrote:I have just been rereading both of the south america books and really other than a few weapons that are out of whack overall the power level is not to crazy.
The few that are outliers are pretty over the top ones but overall it is pretty easy to simply restrict access to the few that would cause problems and the rest is pretty normal for rifts a bit higher on the power end but thats not to unusual.
say652 wrote:South America while many powerful occs exist isn't overpowered to that setting. All the different factions are pretty evenly matched.
What he said right there.Pepsi Jedi wrote:Yes they were considered Overpowered.
Note the tense there. When SA1 and 2 came out, we didn't have 50+ Rifts books coming in at the 6th world book it was very overpowered for the time being. Also a great great Great number of people blately ignore the "If you're not in South America, there's really no way you'll ever see or hear about this gear, much less possess it. So when it came out, twinks used it as a toy catalog and suddenly those over powered weapons were being used in the lower powered settings by people that ignored that cravat that was pretty clearly spelled out in the books.
More over this isn't a 'rumor' or anything. It was so bad, that Kevin himself has addressed it. Formally. If you look in the GM guide it's addressed. Not only is the power creep significant, it is to the point that -Kevin- acknowledged it and said to knock the entire book, across the board down by a percentage. If you read between the lines at the reasoning it's kinda... Well it's there to be read.
What most people that argue that it's 'not' overpowered fail to notice/realize is the time frame. Yes TWENTY TWO YEARS LATER, the creep doesn't look as bad. Why? Because we've had... literally.. TWENTY TWO YEARS OF BOOKS WITH POWER CREEP IN THEM, to help mollify the shock that came from the SA books. Rifts is known for power creep and wildly discongreuant power settings and levels. In the game industry that's what the game is known for. It didn't appear all at once but a bit here a bit there, drug out over the years. Sure if you sit down with your entire library of 50+ Rifts books and look att hem all at once,the SA stuff doesn't look 'that bad'. Because you have a literal pile of over 20 years of it all adding up. The power level now is nothing like itwas 22 years ago.
"Well if you take 6 random books" and stuff shows that's not looked at in that way.
The proper way to do it would be to compare it to England or Africa and look at the strengths of the stuff you find there, then look at the stuff you find in SA. That will tell a much different story.
Even today with 22 years 'more' power creep in the game KNOWN For power creep SA still stands out with some crazy stuff. Is it as crazy as it was over two decades ago? No. Doesn't look 'as bad' now. Now it looks like it has a few outliers but 'What's the big deal'. Back then though it stood out a great deal more.
Not everyone was around back then. Some of the folks haven't been playing Palladium for 30 years.
Some of us have and remember it from when it happened.
SOME people blatantly ignore the stuff in the books that say that the equipment would be next to impossible to find out side of a certain area, and there are players that will -literally- go though 50+ Rifts books for the strongest/best stated -EVERYTHING- for their chars. The nature of "One rifle, one set of armor, one pistol" Lends itself to this. You'll have people in.... Dinosaur swamp with military heavy grade weaponry from.. the NGR, Russia, Japan, Lemuria, South America, and other dimensions. Why? "It's rifts.... my char... er... got it from a traveling black market salesman" and then just call it done.
Pepsi Jedi wrote:it was very overpowered for the time being.
That may be true......but some of the Carella handheld weapons packed more punch than a Glitterboy flechette, let alone heavy weaponry....say652 wrote:Demigods, Godlings, Norse Giants, Holy Terrors, Glitterboys, any Robot with a Gunner all these things predate South America books.
cornholioprime wrote:That may be true......but some of the Carella handheld weapons packed more punch than a Glitterboy flechette, let alone heavy weaponry....say652 wrote:Demigods, Godlings, Norse Giants, Holy Terrors, Glitterboys, any Robot with a Gunner all these things predate South America books.
...and this back in the time when CaliberX, Kevin Siembieda's then-idea of a superweapon, did an "awesome" 4D6 MDC or some such.
cornholioprime wrote:That may be true......but some of the Carella handheld weapons packed more punch than a Glitterboy flechette, let alone heavy weaponry....say652 wrote:Demigods, Godlings, Norse Giants, Holy Terrors, Glitterboys, any Robot with a Gunner all these things predate South America books.
...and this back in the time when CaliberX, Kevin Siembieda's then-idea of a superweapon, did an "awesome" 4D6 MDC or some such.
cornholioprime wrote:some of the Carella handheld weapons packed more punch than a Glitterboy flechette, let alone heavy weaponry....
cornholioprime wrote:...and this back in the time when CaliberX, Kevin Siembieda's then-idea of a superweapon, did an "awesome" 4D6 MDC or some such.
Axelmania wrote:The two I remember having them was Anhur the lion god and Sobek the crocodile god.
Since no modifications or mentioned, Boom Guns probably have their own built-in nuclear batteries.
Considering how big they are, you could probably fit a backpack sized nuclear generator into one.
Shark_Force wrote:the original RMB had a handheld (in fact, much more portable, not to mention less expensive) weapon that could deal more damage than a boom gun, and arguably does it better than the ATL-7. why am i supposed to be upset that south america also did? but hey, sure, let's all blame C J Carella for that. clearly it was all his fault.
Supergyro wrote:CJ Carella wanted to convey a wide range of technological capabilities.
So yes, some people from incredibly high technology empires had guns that did much more damage than people from much lower technology..... which is how technology works.
The desire for 'balance' in a setting which is supposed to have such a wide diversity of technologies and capabilities can only lead to madness.... and it's that Madness that turned the Rifts GM's guide into a bit of a joke.... dozens of rifles from dozens of empires ad dozens of different levels of magic/psionic/technological ability........ and yet all do 4D6.....
Blue_Lion wrote:So you think it is logical that no modifications where made to the boom guns for the gods.
Blue_Lion wrote:A defualt boom gun is attached the nuclear power plant of the GB, if the boom gun had its own built in power supply that would be worth mentioning because it would have a separate life span from the GB.
Blue_Lion wrote:A god having a boom gun does not justify common people having a boom gun.
Blue_Lion wrote:We know the boom gun is modified because it is no longer attached to the GB it came with(any change is a modification) and that is a modification we just do not know to what extent it is modified as that is not relevant to the npc.
The Beast wrote:Shark_Force wrote:the original RMB had a handheld (in fact, much more portable, not to mention less expensive) weapon that could deal more damage than a boom gun, and arguably does it better than the ATL-7. why am i supposed to be upset that south america also did? but hey, sure, let's all blame C J Carella for that. clearly it was all his fault.
Which weapon is this?
Shark_Force wrote:an NG-P7 could deal 1d4x50 damage per action, twice, before exchanging e-clips. that's 125 damage on average (higher than the glitter boy), and you get to fire twice before reloading. the damage per action is considerably better than the ATL-7.
Nightmask wrote:Plus the ongoing madness that giant robots almost always have the same or worse MDC than the guys running around in power armor, with their weapons also no better than what the power armor and body armor types are carrying.
You have no idea of what you're talking about.grimmhold wrote:The people who say C.J. brought in the power creep and that his S.A. books were over powered are clearly K.S. fanboys who back K.S. up in regards for their hate on C.J. Rifts is a power creep line. From the start Rifts had tons of power creep. Juicers in melee combat. Heavy cyborgs. Shifters. LL Walkers. Glitter Boys. Robots with a gunner. I mean, come one, Atlantis was 100% pure power creep. Bio Borgs, Conservator R.C.C., Atlantean Undead Hunters. I mean the power tattoo that gives 75 m.d.c. per level is not power creep?
cornholioprime wrote:You have no idea of what you're talking about.grimmhold wrote:The people who say C.J. brought in the power creep and that his S.A. books were over powered are clearly K.S. fanboys who back K.S. up in regards for their hate on C.J. Rifts is a power creep line. From the start Rifts had tons of power creep. Juicers in melee combat. Heavy cyborgs. Shifters. LL Walkers. Glitter Boys. Robots with a gunner. I mean, come one, Atlantis was 100% pure power creep. Bio Borgs, Conservator R.C.C., Atlantean Undead Hunters. I mean the power tattoo that gives 75 m.d.c. per level is not power creep?
Most everyone I ever saw in these forums who complained about C.J. Carella's Power Creep....nevertheless loved the man and his creations.
Rifts, Nightbane, Pantheons of the Megaverse and otherwise.
In these forums, he's probably about as well-liked an RPG writer as The Wuj was.
EDIT: I don't have my books with me at the moment. Fellas, did C.J. also give us Phase World?
As the colored text indicated, I was referring to his assertion that those of us who complain about Carella's power creep, are only doing so because we "love" Kevin and "hate" C.J.jaymz wrote:cornholioprime wrote:You have no idea of what you're talking about.grimmhold wrote:The people who say C.J. brought in the power creep and that his S.A. books were over powered are clearly K.S. fanboys who back K.S. up in regards for their hate on C.J. Rifts is a power creep line. From the start Rifts had tons of power creep. Juicers in melee combat. Heavy cyborgs. Shifters. LL Walkers. Glitter Boys. Robots with a gunner. I mean, come one, Atlantis was 100% pure power creep. Bio Borgs, Conservator R.C.C., Atlantean Undead Hunters. I mean the power tattoo that gives 75 m.d.c. per level is not power creep?
Most everyone I ever saw in these forums who complained about C.J. Carella's Power Creep....nevertheless loved the man and his creations.
Rifts, Nightbane, Pantheons of the Megaverse and otherwise.
In these forums, he's probably about as well-liked an RPG writer as The Wuj was.
EDIT: I don't have my books with me at the moment. Fellas, did C.J. also give us Phase World?
With all due respect Corn, i have seen what he talks about a number of times over the years, including phaseworld in the mix.
The SA books have a few very specific items that may be considered overpowered (and frankly an anti tank laser that requires 3-4 actions to get your next shot off isnt) but the books overall are not "overpowered". If GMs are stupid enough to let some of those items be had in games other than in SA then thats on them and does not make the books broken or overpowered. No more so than if you allow certain bots or borgs from triax/atlantis/japan in areas like england or australia yet a number of people on these forums refuse the acknowkedge that as they think kevin didn't do anything wrong while CJ is the boogy man of power creep. The above mentioned books were written during the same time periods as the SA books and frankly kevin himself had approve the stuff so he oviously saw nothing wrong with it at the time (and looking at the power creep he himself created one can see why) however throwing that material under the bus years later in the GM guide is, to be honest, a dick move.
It goes to phaseworld as well with people complaining about ship numbers etc and he "has no clue what he is doing" and they continue to say such even after myself and others explain why the numbers would make sense yet they will praise the absolutely arse-pulled numbers that is fleets of the three galaxies.....and the only reason i can see is CJ is the boogy man of power creep.
Hell I have seem people complain NightSPAWN is over powered as well.
For someone so well liked a lot of people complain about his work across the board yet these same peoole do not say a peep about the large power creep kevin himself created.
cornholioprime wrote:As the colored text indicated, I was referring to his assertion that those of us who complain about Carella's power creep, are only doing so because we "love" Kevin and "hate" C.J.jaymz wrote:
For someone so well liked a lot of people complain about his work across the board yet these same peoole do not say a peep about the large power creep kevin himself created.
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Actually no. Some that point out the book was overpowered -when it came out- have pointed out that it doesn't -appear- so bad -now- as there's been over ----TWO DECADES---- of power creep to catch up and make it look some what standard. It was more than just the one gun in SA that made it over powered. But yes. Some of us acknowledge that after SA the power creep continued, book by book till you're at where we are today. TWENTY TWO YEARS LATER. (People some how seem to fail to wrap their minds about that)
It was more than just one gun, as well. I mean there were cats that started out at 100+MDC (That continued to increase), that could out fly a super samus (Which came later), and who's hand to hand attacks did MD damage, had mental blasts that -start- as strong as heavy rifles at that point (4D6) and just went up. by level 5 they were doing 8D6, by lvl 9 "Experienced Adventurer" They're at 12D6 MDC per blast, had horror factor of 10 as well as custom body armor on top of that, and modern weapons and such.
Another had supernatural strength, starts at 160MDC +10 per level, does MDC Damage in hand to hand, bio regeneration, forcefields, psionci blasts, other psionic powers including up to 4 from the super category which is strictly limited in Rifts, and more so at that point in the game. meaning these psychos could come at you with Psiswords as well as the list before, MDC claws, frenzy bonuses, rocket rifles, heavy MD Armor (On top of armor that was already heavier than what you could buy at that point in time) etc.
Ships with 28,000 MDC (which should be noted is almost half again more than the flippin' Ticonderoga from later books)
Killer Cyborg wrote:It might help if people discussing the power level of main book weapons would get their stats right.
Also, it would be useful if people understood the differences between "power" and "power creep."
Arguments along the lines of "if a character could achieve a high level of power by having rare super powers or by linking themselves physically and permanently to another life form, then standard infantry should be able to achieve similar power levels via common gear" miss the boat.
Pepsi Jedi wrote:It was more than just one gun, as well. I mean there were cats that started out at 100+MDC (That continued to increase), that could out fly a super samus (Which came later), and who's hand to hand attacks did MD damage, had mental blasts that -start- as strong as heavy rifles at that point (4D6) and just went up. by level 5 they were doing 8D6, by lvl 9 "Experienced Adventurer" They're at 12D6 MDC per blast, had horror factor of 10 as well as custom body armor on top of that, and modern weapons and such.
Another had supernatural strength, starts at 160MDC +10 per level, does MDC Damage in hand to hand, bio regeneration, forcefields, psionci blasts, other psionic powers including up to 4 from the super category which is strictly limited in Rifts, and more so at that point in the game. meaning these psychos could come at you with Psiswords as well as the list before, MDC claws, frenzy bonuses, rocket rifles, heavy MD Armor (On top of armor that was already heavier than what you could buy at that point in time) etc.
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Ships with 28,000 MDC (which should be noted is almost half again more than the flippin' Ticonderoga from later books)
Shark_Force wrote:(also, you didn't need full round bursts to make good use of the "standard" rate of fire; you could do a long burst that takes 1 melee action and does x5 damage and used only half a clip, for equal efficiency in the damage but potentially much better action economy so long as you had at least 3 attacks per melee).
Axelmania wrote:It's not like the North American power creeped, this was pre-rifts tech in South America, where the war launched, right?
Axelmania wrote:CJ may have made a bigger vehicle but pound for pound and volume for volume, Siembieda's in WB2 is better.
jaymz wrote:cornholioprime wrote:You have no idea of what you're talking about.grimmhold wrote:The people who say C.J. brought in the power creep and that his S.A. books were over powered are clearly K.S. fanboys who back K.S. up in regards for their hate on C.J. Rifts is a power creep line. From the start Rifts had tons of power creep. Juicers in melee combat. Heavy cyborgs. Shifters. LL Walkers. Glitter Boys. Robots with a gunner. I mean, come one, Atlantis was 100% pure power creep. Bio Borgs, Conservator R.C.C., Atlantean Undead Hunters. I mean the power tattoo that gives 75 m.d.c. per level is not power creep?
Most everyone I ever saw in these forums who complained about C.J. Carella's Power Creep....nevertheless loved the man and his creations.
Rifts, Nightbane, Pantheons of the Megaverse and otherwise.
In these forums, he's probably about as well-liked an RPG writer as The Wuj was.
EDIT: I don't have my books with me at the moment. Fellas, did C.J. also give us Phase World?
With all due respect Corn, i have seen what he talks about a number of times over the years, including phaseworld in the mix.
The SA books have a few very specific items that may be considered overpowered (and frankly an anti tank laser that requires 3-4 actions to get your next shot off isnt)
If GMs are stupid enough to let some of those items be had in games other than in SA then thats on them and does not make the books broken or overpowered.
Hell I have seem people complain NightSPAWN is over powered as well.
For someone so well liked a lot of people complain about his work across the board yet these same peoole do not say a peep about the large power creep kevin himself created.