Killer Cyborg wrote:Well, assuming the 40 million number is closer to correct (as opposed to 30 million), the CS alone being able to arm about 8.5% of the population of the continent with just one type of surplus PA, let alone body armor and infantry weapons, (and not counting the 2-3 million they have actively under arms already) or other vehicles AND there are close to a dozen other manufacturers of MD weapons and armor in the market, all of whom are profitable and selling to someone...
They might be able to arm that much of the population, but they don't.
Something of a false equivalence here. This isn't about wether they do, it's about wether they *can*. In order for something to be rare, it has to be rare. It isn't, in this case, it's just not given to everyone. Money isn't rare. Billionaires are rare. Diamonds are not rare (in fact, theyre so common as to be nearly worthless, if not for DeBeers controlling the market).
Similarly, in the US, about 20% of the population owns guns. Less than 5% (usually quoted as 3%, but confusing or non-existent registration laws and loopholes confuse the issue) own more than HALF the guns.
This doesn't make guns rare in the US. They aren't.
AND populations of people with MD weapons and armor with no access to tech or TW by and large (Native Americans, Dino Swamp Barbarians)...
Not sure why you keep harping on the "no access to tech or tw" thing.
Because it shows that you dont have to be high-tech or even high-magic to have ready access to MD powers/abilities/weapons & armor. See Simvan, for instance.
and some nations that have large populations that are almost all armed with MD weapons, spells, or what have you (Pecos Empire - 600,000+ combatants out of 1.4 million or so inhabitants; and that's just assuming that the "career bandits" are the only combatants.)....
Are all their combatants MD-capable?
How MD-Capable are they?
Degree of MD-capability is utterly irrelevant. This is about MD being "rare". If they have it, they have it. To answer the question, though:
*Most* of the Pecos Bandits are: Grunts or Equivalent, Headhunter, Wilderness Scout, PA pilots, Juicers, Crazies, Borgs, Bounty Hunters, Forgers, Professional Thieves, Safecrackers, Smugglers, Special Forces, Spies, Gunslingers, Wired Slingers, Psi-Slingers, Gunmen, Saloon Bums, Saddle Tramps, and lastly, the Pecos Raider OCC.
All of those EXCEPT the Pecos Raider start with MDC firearms (and melee weapons). The Pecos Raider CAN start with MDC firearms (both an energy pistol and rifle, or "other" - unlike most of the people here trying to make this fit their conclusions, i tend to believe this refers to popular (among bandits) MDC solutions like Ramjets, Bandito weapons, etc), but people try to use a (rather silly) argument that they wouldnt, for whatever reason... but they ALL get at LEAST one Vibro-Knife ("one or more").
So yes, they are all MD armed. And the idea that they wouldn't have MD firearms when their primary criminal activity for about half the year is raiding Lone Star and other CS outposts for weapons and goods is kinda silly.
Matter of opinion as to what qualifies as "Rare" i guess,
Yup.
And this will be the determiner if there can even be a conversation here. I dont cosider anything in the 30% ownership range to be "rare". Nor do i consider it to be "common", for the record... but it isnt rare. As i pointed out earlier, less than 30% of the people in America own guns. HALF the guns are owned by 3-5% of the people. That doesn't make guns rare. Almost every person in the country can point to someone in their lives who owns a gun. That isn't rare.
If 1/3 of the population had access to food, I'd say that food was pretty rare.
One is a luxury, the other is a necessity. One is harder to produce and procure than the other. Also, it isn't going be 1/3 of the population having access to food for long - pretty soon, the other 2/3 will die, and everyone will have food.
The same cannot be said of people not having firearms (in real life or Rifts Earth), particularly given that in most places, people simply have no NEED for guns because they are safe, and this pertains even in Rifts Earth (where over half the population of NA lives in relatively safe enclaves). Perhaps not as much (the wilderness is certainly a lot more deadly in Rifts Earth than modern day, for sure) as reality, but...
I'm perfectly content to cede the point that Kevin intended for MDC to be rare. Im 100% sure his original vision for Rifts Earth was to be more like Palladium Fantasy, where adventurers are uncommon at best and some of the nations have tens of millions of people living in them. It's one of the MANY idiosyncrasies in the setting that didn't work out. He says one thing (MDC is RARE!), but the info released says otherwise. Just like "mages cant fight", and "it takes forever to get anywhere" and other things that Kevin intended, it doesn't match out. "Show me dont tell me" comes to mind.
I'm also NOT saying that MDC is COMMON, and that every Tom Dick and Harry has MDC weapons/powers/abilities. They obviously dont. I'm just saying that it isn't RARE. I'd say it is "uncommon". It is uncommon for a US Citizen to own a gun. Guns, however, are not rare. MDC is uncommon, but MDC things/weapons/armor are not rare, nor unavailable to those that DONT have them if they want them. (Anyone living in places outside the CS can stroll down to the local NG store and buy an MDC weapon as long as they have the money, and given that GAW and WI have CHEAP weapons available (explosive, ramjet rounds), this is more feasible than ever. They dont because they simply dont NEED to. The average citizen of Lazlo that isn't already a magic user or master psychic or some kind of supernatural being doesn't need a gun. Lazlo is very safe, has an army to protect it, cops to protect the city, etc. MD is still readily available to him, though.
I also went through all the cities/towns/settlements i could find detailed:
“MDC is rare”.
Is it though?
Sticking to NA:
The Coalition States (at the time including Free Quebec) have about 15 million citizens. (SB1, original)
There isn’t really a breakdown on common OCCs for any given city or settlement in the CS, but they have (roughly, according to CWC, Siege Books, Aftermath, etc, and mathing out stated unit sizes to the number of said units the CS is stated to have) about 2.5-3 million men under arms in their army, + ISS forces (that aren’t detailed in size at all). That’s about 1/5th of their population that has daily access and use of MDC legally. We know that a large number of not-so-legal people carry MDC weapons inside CS territory, but we don’t have a solid number. This includes city rats, smugglers, criminals, etc. I wouldn’t say that this number is going to add much to the total out of their population..
However, Skelebots can be swapped out 1:1 with non-MDC armed Citizens. (As the citizen in question now no longer has to be drafted/serve). And there are at least a million of those. I *think* Dog Boys are accounted for in the population of NA stated in D-bees (they are sentients), so well leave that one alone as we have no concrete numbers on Dog Boy population in the CS.
But this does NOT take into account the ‘Burbs at all. (Other than ISS or CS Army personnel that patrol them).
Old Town Burbs seem to be fairly light on criminal activity, but “citizens” there employ bodyguards with MDC weapons and armor and are allowed to own them. Most of the buildings are permanent and made of MDC materials. (Adventure SB 1). These Burbs are most like a CS city. Lots of civilians, not a ton of MDC weapons/capability. Almost no magic, and most psychics are registered with Psi-Net.
New Towns - lots of people with MDC weapons and armor (streets are dangerous). A fairly high number of D-bees (15-20% or more). Some are outright armed camps. About 10% of people here are magic users. about 8% (avg; 6-12%) are psychics.
Shanty Towns - worth your life to go unarmed. Often violently purged by the CS Army. 20% D-Bees, 70% of whom are adventurers or mercenaries (with MDC weapons), high Psi-Stalker population (up to 15%) - again, very likely to have MDC weapons. about 12.5% magic practitioners. 11% psychics. MDC weapons and armor fairly common.
Firetown (the “Example” New Town Burb) has a pretty high percentage of people with access to MDC weapons, magic, or powers (over 30%, easily). (Adventure Sourcebook 2, Firetown).
Queenston Harbor - 165,000 people. No detailed breakdown on OCCs, but has a professional army of 10,000 (all armed with Armor of Ithan amulets, Firebolt Rifles and Pistols). Has a similar number of mercenaries/adventurers visiting at any given time, and 1500 Splugorth Minions. Doesn’t include the pirate fleets who call this their home port (numbers not given). Fairly high percentage of people with MDC capabilities, even if we assume that every person not listed above is a civilian with no MDC anything (which i think is foolish, particularly given the nature of the city as a TW manufacturing hub). (SB4, CS Navy)
Kingsdale - Population 110,000. Does not include the 4-8,000 transient mercs, juicers, etc, and used to be 3x higher before the Uprising. 27,000 people in Kingsdale are magic users. (30% LLW, 15% Mystics, 10% each Shifters, Warlocks, Diabolists; 5% Summoners, and 10% split between things like Temporal Wizards and other more rare practices (like Necromancy). Formal Army of 4320 people (all armed with MDC); 2000 Forest Rangers (Wilderness Scouts, Juicers, Crazies, Psi Stalkers; all armed with MDC weapons), Magic Militia (2000 troops, but i wouldn’t add this number to the magic users above, i’d assume they come from that pool), and the City Guard - 4000 combat effectives (Cops and Militia) So, out of a population of 110,000 - 37,000 at least, have MDC capability. And another 4-8000 visitors that are all armed. (Juicer Uprising, WB10) Assuming all non-specifically-called-out MDC armed people as civilians: about 40% of people have MDC weapons or abilities.
Los Alamo - Population 90,000. Does not include the transient merchant/mercenary population (all armed) of a few thousand. Standing army of 10,000 troops and 5,000 militia; also, 80% of citizens have at least one modern W.P., 50% have H2H Basic (level 1d4), and another 20% have H2H Expert (level 1d4+2). Major Juicer conversion hub, also a weapons manufacturer (knockoffs of Black Market, NG, and CS weapons, and event he basic Wilk’s laser rifle). (Juicer Uprising, WB10) Assuming all non-specifically-called-out MDC armed people as civilians: about 22-25% of people have MDC weapons or abilities.
Newtown (now wrecked) - Population 70,000 before the Uprising. Before becoming a CS protectorate, had an army of about 10,000, give or take. Half were mercenaries, which were all run out of town after the CS took over. Weapons and Armor manufacturer, Major Juicer Augmentation hub. (Juicer Uprising, WB10). Before the CS takeover, assuming all non-specifically-called-out MDC armed people as civilians: about 15% of people had MDC weapons or abilities.
Fort El Dorado - Population 135,000; 85,000 additional people in the nearby small villages, towns, and farms that made up FEDs territory. Between 2-8,000 Juicers in town at any given time. Standing Army of about 4,000. Also has two small CS bases nearby (within 10 miles) adding another 1,000 or so troops total. Major weapons manufacturer, juicer and cybernetic augmentation mecca. (Juicer Uprising, WB10) Assuming all non-specifically-called-out MDC armed people as civilians: about 11% of people have MDC weapons or abilities.
Psyscape - Population 76,890 (at whatever date PA the book assumed) with a ~12% growth rate per year now that it is “back” in the world. (So, by 109/110, ~100,000 isn’t unreasonable). 87% are psychics. 50% of those are Master Psychics (so, roughly 43% of the population). 30% are Major and 20% Minor. Of the Non-psychics, 20% are Magic Users, 17% Men-at-arms. 10% healers and 15% Scholars, maybe/maybe not the actual OCCs, so who knows. Assuming all non-specifically-called-out MDC armed people as civilians: at least 45% of people have MDC weapons or abilities. I didn’t get too mathy on the numbers after Master Psychics and Magic Users, really. That assumes also that all those Major Psychics aren’t double-dipping as the Magic, Men-at-arms OCCs. (Psyscape, WB 12)
Pecos Empire - Population 1.64 million. 550,000 “career bandits”. That number doesn’t include the 180,000 vampires (definitely MDC capable creatures) but probably DOES include the Brodkil and other MDC beings. KC asked and/or tried to imply that perhaps many of these bandits are not armed with MDC weapons - but there’s breakdowns for almost all of the major gangs and the minor gangs follow similar breakdowns. All the OCCs presented are MDC capable/armed. Assuming all non-specifically-called-out MDC armed people as civilians: about 35% of people have MDC weapons or abilities. Including the Vampires, more like 45%. (Lone Star, WB 13)
General WB14 - New West note: even civilians of certain races are MDC capable creatures, like Fennodi (no MDC attacks but MDC defenses) and all Lyn-Srial.
Silvereno, Colorado - Population 34,000. Doesn’t have an OCC breakdown, unlike the other towns in New West. Is home to a coven of several hundred vampires, and has a militia and police force. (New West, WB14)
Clarkdale Confederacy - Population 13,260. No exact OCC breakdown, but it does call out that 15% are LLW, 6% other practitioners of magic, and 2% Indian mystics and magic users. Also has a population of Lyn-Srial. (New West, WB14) Assuming all non-specifically-called-out MDC armed people as civilians: about 25% of people have MDC weapons or abilities. (New West, WB14)
Tryth-Sal (Arizona) - Population 6500. 4,400 are MDC creatures (Fennodi and Lyn-Srial). No callout on the classes or powers of the D-bees or humans that live there. Assuming all non-specifically-called-out MDC armed people as civilians: about 60% of people have MDC weapons or abilities. (New West, WB14)
Colorado Baronies: (New West, WB14)
Barony of Hope (population 52,000 + outlying towns) - Only 34% are NOT explicitly called out as MDC capable. This entry is “34% Others, including laborers, gamblers, cowboys, etc” - but some of those OCCs ARE MDC carrying. For ease, though, well just stick with 66%. Assuming all non-specifically-called-out MDC armed people as civilians: about 66% of people have MDC weapons or abilities.
Barony of Testament - Population 28,700. 41% are explicitly called out as magic users or other MDC armed OCCs. 40% are cowboys and ranch hands or those who work related to livestock (which includes the Psi-Stalkers, listed as about 12% of the population and almost all cowboys or livestock handlers). Another 19% are simply “other” with no descriptor. Assuming all non-specifically-called-out MDC armed people as civilians: about 40% of people have MDC weapons or abilities, but it is probably higher as a significant portion of the 40% of cowboys and related folks are probably armed, partifcularly the Psi-Stalkers.
Barony of Wilmington - Population 23,500. 35% are explicitly called out as magic users or other MDC armed OCCs. Another 20% are Cowboys, Scouts, and ranch hands. 45% are farmers/laborers. Assuming all non-specifically-called-out MDC armed people as civilians: about 35% of people have MDC weapons or abilities, though this is probably higher as it is likely a decent percentage of the 20% of people who are cowboys and scouts have MDC gear/capabilities.
Barony of Charity - Population 10,700. All but 22% are explicitly called out as MDC-capable OCCs. Assuming all non-specifically-called-out MDC armed people as civilians: about 78% of people have MDC weapons or abilities.
Native Preserves - Spirit West (WB15)
Fort Apache - Population 113,000. Standing army of 6000 modern soldiers and another 25,000 Traditionalist (combatants) Assuming all non-specifically-called-out MDC armed people as civilians: about 32% of people have MDC weapons or abilities.
The other preserves don’t have detailed OCC or combatant breakdowns, but assuming a similar ratio to Fort Apache on population/warriors for non-modern Indians (which make up the bulk of the preserves), most preserves have at least 25% MDC-capable warriors/shamans/others. There are roughly ~700-800,000 natives/Indians in NA.
Dweomer (105 PA) - Population ~50,000. 50% of the population is straight-up magic users, Dragons, Demons, or Supernatural beings. The non-magicaly inclined humans (25%) and D-bees (17.5%) are not specifically called out as to what OCCs they are. Assuming all non-specifically-called-out MDC armed people as civilians: at least 50% of people have MDC weapons or abilities. This is probably significantly higher. (Fed Of Magic Revised, WB 16)
City of Brass - Population 18,900. 56% of the population is called out specifically as magic users, demons, dragons, other supernatural creatures, or Augmented Humans (Juicers and Bio-borgs from Atlantis, mostly). 44% are Humans and D-bees described as “Ordinary” (but no OCC breakdown). Assuming all non-specifically-called-out MDC armed people as civilians: about 56% of people have MDC weapons or abilities. (Fed Of Magic Revised, WB16).
Magestar - Population ~2000. 29% are called out specifically as magic users or other MDC using OCCs (Cyber-Knights, ‘Trained Fighters’, inhuman sentient creatures). Assuming all non-specifically-called-out MDC armed people as civilians: about 30% of people have MDC weapons or abilities. Also (not included in the population number for whatever reason) has a standing “army” of 148 mercy to protect the town. (Fed of Magic Revised, WB16)
Stormspire - Population 18,072. Does not include 1000 slaves, 600 additional mercs, and 1-4000 transient adventurers/customers. (Total actual population assuming “average” visitors - roughly 22,000). 56% are called out as magic users or other MDC welding OCCs (Dragon Juicers, Demons, Brodkil, etc). 44% are “ordinary D-bees and humans” with no OCC breakdowns. Including visitors/customers and the standing merchant forces, assuming all non-specifically-called-out MDC armed people as civilians: about 59% of people have MDC weapons or abilities. (Fed of Magic Revised, WB16)
Lazlo - Population 1.4+ million (includes the popuiation of the nearby towns that consider themselves part of Lazlo, but not The Relic) No real known population breakdown, or OCC breakdown to offer. Never been detailed for whatever reason. Presumably, a lot of magic users. I’d consider a breakdown in population and occupation similar to Tolkeen to be reasonable, as it is the only comparable densely population magic using kingdom other than Lazlo.
Kingdom of Montreal - Population 134,000. 20% called out right off the top as professional bandits and pirates. Over 55% of the population is D-bees. No specific breakdown of population by race or OCC otherwise, though. Assuming all non-specifically-called-out MDC armed people as civilians: about 20% of people have MDC weapons or abilities. I’d say this is ludicrously low, but we’re sticking to lowest-number scenarios here. (Canada, WB20)
The Relic - population 190,000. Police force of unknown size (armed by NG), Standing Army of 8,000, and a volunteer militia of 10,000. 48% of the population is D-bees, and Magic is practiced/welcomed. Assuming all non-specifically-called-out MDC armed people as civilians: about 20% of people have MDC weapons or abilities. (Canada, WB20)
Tundra Rangers - 30,000 strong, all MDC capable. (Canada, WB20). Leaving this out, though, as there isn’t even a guesstimate anywhere of how many civilians live in the area that the TR patrol.
Free Quebec - no population number given that i can find (though i didn’t comb the entire book), but a staggering 58% of the population has been in the military. (Assuming a roughly 50/50 split of males to females in the population.) (Free Quebec, WB 22)
Old Bones - 70,000 permanent residents, and between 10-40,000 adventurers, mercs, and traders at any one time. No particular breakdown of the residents, but all of the transients are likely to be MDC armed, and the city itself is described as extremely lawless. (FQ, WB 22).
Arzno - Population 23,000. Does not include ~1200 or so transients at any given time here to do business. About 15% of the population are MDC creatures or have MDC natural abilities. No specific breakdown on OCCs by percentage, but it is noted that TWs are everywhere, with 10% of them working for AMC and another 52-59% working for AWM. AMC stats show that they have several hundred magic users, about 1/3 of which are TWs, so there are at least several hundred TWs in the city proper. Also noted that pretty much every home has at least one set of MDC armor and TW anti-vampire weapons.
Merctown - 39,000 residents, and up to 30,000 adventurers, mercs, traders, etc. Breakdown of Residents isn’t done, but about ~10,000 of them are mercs that work for the guy who took over/founded Merctown. So, out of 70,000 or so people in town at any one time, at least 40,000 of them are MDC capable. Assuming all non-specifically-called-out MDC armed people as civilians: about 55-60%% of people have MDC weapons or abilities. (Merctown)
El Paso - 41,400, + 8000 transients. Straight up, 27% of the human population (which is half the population) is either augmented or magic using (and 7% psionic, but those may be minors/majors, not stated). About 1400 cops/peacekeepers, all MD capable. Totaling up the gangs (all MD armed) - gets us another ~1200 or so. Almost all of the transients are adventurers, bandits, or otherwise MD armed. So out of roughly 50,000 people, about ~9500 are MDC capable, PLUS about 13% of the humans (well call it 8% to compensate for the fact that some of those people are surely in the cops/peacekeepers).. so about 11,500 total, or so. Assuming all non-specifically-called-out MDC armed people as civilians: at least 25% of people have MDC weapons or abilities. This is likely quite low, as i was just doing back of the napkin math. (Vampire Kingdoms Revised, WB1)
Cuidad Juarez - 93,6000 residents, + roughly 18,000 transients, and 14,000 slaves. Ill leave slaves out of the equation, because slaves are going to be -deliberately- denied MDC capability even if it is available to their owners. So, about 112,000 people. 4% right off the top are vampires (so about 4400), and 4% are creatures of magic and supernatural creatures (another 4400). There are roughly 6500 cops. Well call it 6000 to account for some of the supernatural beings being part of the cops. Adding up the gangs (all armed) gets us another 8500. Knock off about 1200, as one of the gangs is all vampires and already accounted for above. So, call it 7300. All of the transients are adventurers and the like, but well shave off a few k there (lets call it 15,000) just because we might assume some aren’t. So, about 38,000 people or so that we know are MD capable. Assuming all non-specifically-called-out MDC armed people as civilians: about 35% of people have MDC weapons or abilities. Given Juarez’ general dangerousness, i’d say this is absurdly low, but whatever. (VKR, SB1)
Northern Gun - about 1.3 million people (as many as 1.5, stat is a range, went with the avg). Right off, the IMCN (Merc network in NG) is 100,000 mercs. This doesn’t include mercs not on the IMCNs payroll (like Braddocks Bad Boys or Larsens Brigade). Police forces aren’t detailed in numbers, but there are “a lot”. For the sake of not starting an argument, ill just leave it out. (We don’t have numbers for the ISS either, so thats fine). Assuming all non-specifically-called-out MDC armed people as civilians: about 11% of people have MDC weapons or abilities. (NGR 1&2)
Manistique Imperium - No data of any kind on MI other than basic population numbers from Aftermath. (about 3/4 of a million people all told, including a high D-Bee population; would be close to a million, but we’re told in NG1 that Escanaba is actually part of NG).
Tolkeen (before Siege) Well stick with before-seige numbers, as the Siege undoubtably drew lots of people from elsewhere that were MD-capable.
Tolkeen - Population 890,000. General Breakdown of OCCs in peacetime gives us 39% of the population as MDC-capable OCCs (the psychics in this case have to be MDC capable psychics, as they are psychic OCCs, all of which are MDC capable). This does not include the 34% of the population that is “scholars, educators, and other skilled occupations” - some of which likely belong to MDC capable classes like Rogue Scholar/Scientist, Operator, etc. Well leave them out, though, for completeness. Another 20,000 are straight up supernatural creatures (but this doesn’t really add up to much). Call it 40% for ease. The population breakdowns of the few towns that are detailed in the SoT tends to follow these trends/percentages, depending on the town. (Some are way higher, 60%+, and a few (usually the very small ones) are very low (10% or less) as they are mostly farmers. (SoT6)
Simvan & Brodkil populations (about 2-3 million Simvan, several hundred thousand Brodkil in NA). ALL Brodkil are MDC. While Simvan themselves aren’t MDC beings, all the OCCs we see get MD weapons, but even disregarding that - because I’m sure people will say that there must be “civilian” Simvan - the Simvan train and use MDC creatures as mounts in war. Any Simvan warrior even if he doesn’t have access to high tech or MDC weapons still has an MDC creature to use as a weapon.
We’re averaging out (back of the napkin math) at roughly 37.7% of people who already own/have access to MDC weapons/powers/abilities.
