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Hello brain trust,

I'm looking for some sort of consensus on a ruling I initially made concerning a Palladium Fantasy-style summoner that recently joined a Phase World game that I run. The issue concerns the extent to which a summoning circle can be reused.

My understanding of the sequence of events in circle magic is this: The circle is drawn, the ritual and power words completed, and something sacrificed. This activates the circle, and pops out the target being of interest for the summoning. This is then followed by the battle of wills, etc. which isn't particularly germane to this discussion.

The issue at hand is whether/how another being of the same type can be summoned by reusing the same circle after the above process is completed. The 'duration' section on P. 145 of PF2E references the ability to use an active circle with the power words and simply pumping in 5 PPE (if it isn't sealed, or the summoner wants to reuse it). My reading was that this allows whoever to simply take advantage of the protection circle-like effects of a summoning circle, and that to summon another being altogether requires, at a minimum, another sacrifice and ritual reactivation of the circle (and possibly a different circle altogether, if the original minion is still bound to the summoner, though my concern with a Rifts game is that that would be taking the nerfing too far). However the player told me that among other conversations he's had on the subject, the consensus is that the 5 PPE alone would be enough to allow another summoning if the circle is still active. What do you guys think on both points?

My understanding of the subject is this.
The circle is used to summon the creature. While that creature is summoned/bound it is bound to that circle and the circle can not be reused. If you lose the minion then you can reuse the circle.
Reusing the circle calls for a new sacrifice (the sacrifice is part of the summoning) and the 5 PPE and a battle of wills.
This is if nothing has damaged the circle in any way. If the circle is disturbed (say someone takes your dish of salt or what have you) then you need your full PPE to 'rededicate' the circle and 'reactivate' it.

This allows for a summoner to have an array of circles handy to use but does not let them simply summon up a horde of greater elementals for 5PPE a pop with one circle.

For what it is worth, in my games I only allow the 5 PPE trick for protection circles.

eliakon wrote:My understanding of the subject is this.
The circle is used to summon the creature. While that creature is summoned/bound it is bound to that circle and the circle can not be reused. If you lose the minion then you can reuse the circle.
Reusing the circle calls for a new sacrifice (the sacrifice is part of the summoning) and the 5 PPE and a battle of wills.
This is if nothing has damaged the circle in any way. If the circle is disturbed (say someone takes your dish of salt or what have you) then you need your full PPE to 'rededicate' the circle and 'reactivate' it.

This allows for a summoner to have an array of circles handy to use but does not let them simply summon up a horde of greater elementals for 5PPE a pop with one circle.

For what it is worth, in my games I only allow the 5 PPE trick for protection circles.

"Reusing the circle calls for a new sacrifice (the sacrifice is part of the summoning) and the 5 PPE and a battle of wills."

Unfortunately that is incorrect. The sacrifice ACTIVATES the circle.

The circle remains active indefinitely, until damaged 50% or more or disabled by the circle mage via paying half the ppe cost to activate. All materials used in the sacrifice remain fresh on the circle so long as it remains activated(Not destroyed or deactivated by the circle mage). If the materials are removed it affects the circle, but 60 PPE and reactivation is all that is required after replacing the materials in question.

So long as the conditions above are met; the Circle mage can come back years later and pay 5 PPE and summon from that circle.

Edit: "The circle is used to summon the creature. While that creature is summoned/bound it is bound to that circle and the circle can not be reused. If you lose the minion then you can reuse the circle." This is also not true. Number of minions lesser/greater is bound to the level of the Circle Mage, not the presence of the circle.

sardonislamir wrote:

eliakon wrote:My understanding of the subject is this.
The circle is used to summon the creature. While that creature is summoned/bound it is bound to that circle and the circle can not be reused. If you lose the minion then you can reuse the circle.
Reusing the circle calls for a new sacrifice (the sacrifice is part of the summoning) and the 5 PPE and a battle of wills.
This is if nothing has damaged the circle in any way. If the circle is disturbed (say someone takes your dish of salt or what have you) then you need your full PPE to 'rededicate' the circle and 'reactivate' it.

This allows for a summoner to have an array of circles handy to use but does not let them simply summon up a horde of greater elementals for 5PPE a pop with one circle.

For what it is worth, in my games I only allow the 5 PPE trick for protection circles.

"Reusing the circle calls for a new sacrifice (the sacrifice is part of the summoning) and the 5 PPE and a battle of wills."

Unfortunately that is incorrect. The sacrifice ACTIVATES the circle.

The circle remains active indefinitely, until damaged 50% or more or disabled by the circle mage via paying half the ppe cost to activate. All materials used in the sacrifice remain fresh on the circle so long as it remains activated(Not destroyed or deactivated by the circle mage). If the materials are removed it affects the circle, but 60 PPE and reactivation is all that is required after replacing the materials in question.

So long as the conditions above are met; the Circle mage can come back years later and pay 5 PPE and summon from that circle.

Edit: "The circle is used to summon the creature. While that creature is summoned/bound it is bound to that circle and the circle can not be reused. If you lose the minion then you can reuse the circle." This is also not true. Number of minions lesser/greater is bound to the level of the Circle Mage, not the presence of the circle.

The books suggest otherwise. Specifically the permanently summoned and bound Night Owl in the Pirate Lair in High Seas which was accomplished by placing a Ward of Permanence on the circle. If the circle was not involved with the binding after the Demon was summoned then placing a ward on it would have no effect.

You may disagree with my interpretations of course, but unless you can cite specific text material stating this outright then I would suggest you refrain from saying "this is not true" as you are simply substituting your own interpretations of the text.

However I am in the process of reviewing all the available material on Circles and will post another reply once I can cite from pages instead of just operating from memory.

eliakon wrote:

sardonislamir wrote:

eliakon wrote:My understanding of the subject is this.
The circle is used to summon the creature. While that creature is summoned/bound it is bound to that circle and the circle can not be reused. If you lose the minion then you can reuse the circle.
Reusing the circle calls for a new sacrifice (the sacrifice is part of the summoning) and the 5 PPE and a battle of wills.
This is if nothing has damaged the circle in any way. If the circle is disturbed (say someone takes your dish of salt or what have you) then you need your full PPE to 'rededicate' the circle and 'reactivate' it.

This allows for a summoner to have an array of circles handy to use but does not let them simply summon up a horde of greater elementals for 5PPE a pop with one circle.

For what it is worth, in my games I only allow the 5 PPE trick for protection circles.

"Reusing the circle calls for a new sacrifice (the sacrifice is part of the summoning) and the 5 PPE and a battle of wills."

Unfortunately that is incorrect. The sacrifice ACTIVATES the circle.

The circle remains active indefinitely, until damaged 50% or more or disabled by the circle mage via paying half the ppe cost to activate. All materials used in the sacrifice remain fresh on the circle so long as it remains activated(Not destroyed or deactivated by the circle mage). If the materials are removed it affects the circle, but 60 PPE and reactivation is all that is required after replacing the materials in question.

So long as the conditions above are met; the Circle mage can come back years later and pay 5 PPE and summon from that circle.

Edit: "The circle is used to summon the creature. While that creature is summoned/bound it is bound to that circle and the circle can not be reused. If you lose the minion then you can reuse the circle." This is also not true. Number of minions lesser/greater is bound to the level of the Circle Mage, not the presence of the circle.

The books suggest otherwise. Specifically the permanently summoned and bound Night Owl in the Pirate Lair in High Seas which was accomplished by placing a Ward of Permanence on the circle. If the circle was not involved with the binding after the Demon was summoned then placing a ward on it would have no effect.

You may disagree with my interpretations of course, but unless you can cite specific text material stating this outright then I would suggest you refrain from saying "this is not true" as you are simply substituting your own interpretations of the text.

However I am in the process of reviewing all the available material on Circles and will post another reply once I can cite from pages instead of just operating from memory.

I did not say "this is no true" and leave it at that. I answered specifically using language directly from the PF Main Book 2nd Edition, which is directly as stated from the Circle Mage page 145. Insinuating that my statement is guess work is poor form.

A circle once activated remains ACTIVE indefinitely per the Duration on page 145. To reuse the ACTIVE circle, the mage simply need pump 5 PPE into it and with the right power word knowledge reuse the circle.

**Quotation: Written as presented in the book pg 145**
"Duration: Permanent until destroyed or deactivated by the circle maker. Once activated, the magic circle remains functioning indefinitely; all components are magically kept fresh. This means anybody who knows how, can enter the circle and use it, unless it's "sealed.""

---

Citations of what NPC's do or have as a basis of justification to the rules in Palladium has often been considered a deleterious method to set precedent. A page number would have been appreciated for this pirate cove, even if I am inclined to be dismissive of using NPC or story as a basis of rules adjudication.

The only basis to the duration a being can be controlled is through maintaining control on a Summoned entity is under pg 141 Maintaining Control through a battle of wills. No other component exists to severe that connection for the circle mage except to lose a battle of wills with the entity so enslaved or for the Entity to be destroyed itself, or freed by the summoner.

You may disagree with my interpretations of course, but unless you can cite specific text material stating this outright then I would suggest you refrain from saying "this is not true" as you are simply substituting your own interpretations of the text.

Go to Page 145 PF Main Book 2nd edition; ALL you need about summoning and activation are present there.

Laymans: Summoner draws the circle with prescribed materials taking around an hour. Sacrifices the creature required pumping the required PPE from 100 or more as prescribed by the summoning circle and so this ACTIVATES the circle. The circle remains Activated until Deactivated by spending 50% of the PPE to make it OR by removing components, such as the sacrifice... Reactivating it at this point if the sacrifice is not removed is 60 PPE. If sacrifice or materials removed, put them back and pay 60 PPE.

While the circle is Activated, it remains so indefinitely per the duration rules pg 145 so long as the above is met. Indefinitely means forever. If damaged 50% or more, it is destroyed and requires being redrawn. While ACTIVATED, anybody with the power word knowledge can spend 5 PPE to utilize the summoning circle (To their own danger if they can't initiate a Battle of Wills). If the Summoner dismisses an entity/creature because it isn't to their liking, and it successfully leaves, the Circle mage only has to pay 5 PPE to try summoning a new minion with the normal battle of wills occurring. He may do this as much as he likes until his PPE runs out.

This is all per Page 145 Summoning rules.

sardonislamir wrote:If the Summoner dismisses an entity/creature because it isn't to their liking, and it successfully leaves, the Circle mage only has to pay 5 PPE to try summoning a new minion with the normal battle of wills occurring. He may do this as much as he likes until his PPE runs out.

My original question was whether the circle could be reused as you describe without the first summon-ee being dismissed.

Lastly, telling me that I may disagree with your interpretation(your words) while claiming I am ONLY interpreting the rules without citation in turn is flawed argument. You are creating basis of discussion with twisting and conflicting sides. Trying to have a discussion in such a flawed manner causes cognitive dissonance. A state where two ideas are the same but but conflicting. However you are presenting YOUR conflicting version of "interpretation" to be in the right so as to benefit yourself. Whether you realized this mistake or not, it is a mistake on your part.

You failed to even cite the Circle Mage itself and used a second hand source of role-play adventure material.

I am not here to have a pissing contest. I merely abbreviated the facts and presented them to PerroMalo.

PerroMalo wrote:

sardonislamir wrote:If the Summoner dismisses an entity/creature because it isn't to their liking, and it successfully leaves, the Circle mage only has to pay 5 PPE to try summoning a new minion with the normal battle of wills occurring. He may do this as much as he likes until his PPE runs out.

My original question was whether the circle could be reused as you describe without the first summon-ee being dismissed.

Per page 145:
The number of creatures summoned: Unless stated otherwise, only one being is summoned per summoning.


Pg 140: Discusses the order of operations. On initial activation the summoned creature shows up 2d6 melees after being first Activated. And the battle of wills begins Or not if the Circle Mage means to negotiate or achieve some other goal.

Quote typed directly as written in the book pg 140 pertaining to ACTIVATION:

"When the drawing of the circle is complete and the components are in place, the Summoner must activate the circle with the correct amount of magic energy (P.P.E.) at the moment that he kills a living animal. The blood sacrifice of a living creature is one of the components of this magic and can serve as a symbolic part of the ritual or to help power the circle (the victim's P.P.E. is momentarily doubled at the moment of death and is magically drawn into the circle to empower it). The ambient energy available at a ley line or nexus can also be used to acquire the large amount of P.P.E. needed to activate most summoning circles.

Shortly after the circle has been activated (2D6 melee rounds), the type of creature summoned will appear through the dimensional portal created by the circle. As long as the summoner stays within the protective area of the circle, he should be safe from any attacks by that creature.Like a circle of protection, the specific type of being summoned cannot enter the circle and the Summoner has bonuses to save against its attacks. However, the moment he steps outside the area of protection he becomes vulnerable to attack, unless the being is under his control."

On page 145: Note that Active is the key word here. An Active circle remains indefinitely active. And it then says that to use it after is 5 PPE. This covers the how does one reuse a circle once activated. Re-quoting Duration:
"Duration: To use an active circle of any kind, the user must know the power words and pump in five P.P.E. points. These simple requirements mean even a person without magic knowledge can use an active circle provided he or she has proper instructions and five P.P.E. points available to him/her. The desire to use the circle is enough to focus and allow the release of the P.P.E. Note: Most summoning circles (90%) are sealed to prevent their use by others."


Now, to answer your question; how many can it summon? One per USE OF THE CIRCLE. The initial ACTIVATION summons an entity based on the circle 2d6 melees after completing the ritual. ALL following uses of the circle(Spending 5 PPE) summon a new entity(probably best to use the same 2d6 melees given by the ACTIVATION on page 140 for arrival time.)

A circle mage could be unwise and after ACTIVATING, reuse the circle and summon another demon with 5 PPE, but he might soon surround himself by demons he can't control.

The circle is a means to summon entities of the type of Circle. The entity arrives outside the circle through a dimensional portal. If it is not beaten in a battle of wills it can be dismissed, but there is a chance the entity wants to stay.

TO RECAP:
There is a stated limit on entities summoned per a use. There is no stated limit on number of uses of a circle, but there are stated rules on being allowed to reuse a circle all on page 145.

There is nothing that says the circle cannot be reused(in fact it says it can) or how long before it can be reused. It is all in the domination of the entity, if it resists and if it chooses to stay. Since the domination occurs presently, it is probably unwise to distract oneself by summoning more entities than can be focused on. The limit to entities that can be dominated is up to the Circle Mage's level for Lesser and greaters. There is nothing that says that while a summons is present that the circle can't be reused nor that it can't be reused once the creature is bound by battle of wills or once failed to be dismissed and has stayed to harass the summoner. Nothing, in the whole Summoner section remotely suggests a relationship between the circle and the entity beyond summoning an entity, protecting from an entity, and mystically binding an entity to any promises it makes.

There is nothing that dissuades nor contradicts the reuse of the circle after summoning an entity. The Duration and details on deactivation and reactivation rules on page 145 indicate clearly that the circle is to be reused as may times as desired and makes no distinction about the summons inhibiting further use.

PerroMalo wrote:

sardonislamir wrote:If the Summoner dismisses an entity/creature because it isn't to their liking, and it successfully leaves, the Circle mage only has to pay 5 PPE to try summoning a new minion with the normal battle of wills occurring. He may do this as much as he likes until his PPE runs out.

My original question was whether the circle could be reused as you describe without the first summon-ee being dismissed.

Sorry for the long answer above, but it was necessary since your question is asking specifically about a detail not answered because the answer is assumed to be"yes," but the yes is comprised of the rest of the comprised rules as part of a whole instruction.

The circle is activated. Summons appears. The summoner goes into battle of wills or fails or dismisses the creature or it stays. Circle exists so long as it is activated and the sacrifice materials remain fresh indefinitely. Deactivation or destruction ends this(Potentially spoiling the sacrifice). Reuse circle via 5 PPE either way.

Page 144: Discusses the ramifications to a Summoner if they are too low level to control the entity and do not have enough slots. Again, typed out verbatim from the book:

2. The Summoner can use a summoning circle to summon a lesser or greater creature at any time regardless of his experience level. However, if he is too low level to control the beast or already controls the maximum number of creatures possible for his level, the new creature summoned will not be under his/her control — NO battle of wills is possible! This is where circles of protection come in handy, enabling the Summoner to seek refuge from things he cannot control. To get this free-willed being to work for him, the mage will have to make a special arrangement, trade, payment or offer his own service to the monster. In such cases, there is a 1-50% chance that the summoned creature will remain in our world indefinitely! Whether or not it seeks revenge upon the Summoner, leaves the area without incident or decides to work with him, will depend on how the mage treats it, what he has to offer, and the disposition of the monster (Game Master's discretion).

So as you hopefully observe, the Summoner has a bit of risk management to consider. Is it really wise to summon more than one at a time anyway before settling the issue at hand of domination or if the entity goes? And likewise the circle is stated as reusable and has no statement about requiring any being summoned to no longer exist before reusing.

eliakon wrote:The books suggest otherwise. Specifically the permanently summoned and bound Night Owl in the Pirate Lair in High Seas which was accomplished by placing a Ward of Permanence on the circle. If the circle was not involved with the binding after the Demon was summoned then placing a ward on it would have no effect.

That is on page 175 of High Seas. However having just gone to look (thinking there was an example of Circle Magic that I'd overlooked there) I saw no mention of a circle or permanency ward. In fact the creature is described as a willing collaborator with the pirates in the section labelled 'Level Three'.

If you have knowledge of mention of a permanent circle please provide a citation, because I would love to read it and have it to reference myself.

PerroMalo wrote:My original question was whether the circle could be reused as you describe without the first summon-ee being dismissed.

In answer a brief citation from High Seas, page 76. From the description of the Shedim.

After a few decades of being beat up by the Gallu Bull, the Magot, and the Shadow Beasts, they've learned to hide really, really well. Rather than try to hunt down the missing Shedim, Illinar is always summoning more.

This demonstrates several things at once, though as previously mentioned the activities of NPCs does not always comport perfectly to the rules.

1.) Illinar, the Summoner in question, doesn't have to dismiss and resummon creatures with his Circles. In fact he is careless as only a Mad Summoner can be and simply summons new creatures when he wants them, heedless of the fate of the old ones.

2.) This would appear to demonstrate that creatures can be released from being bound without dismissing them from the dimension via a circle. Since Illinar seems to more or less forget about his erstwhile summons and just summon new creatures, he appears to have done exactly this.

3.) The implication is also there that creatures summoned via Circle Magic are, unlike creatures summoned by most spell magic, permanently present in their new dimension barring being purposefully dismissed or transported elsewhere via some means. The Shedim have been around for years, despite not being controlled or even interacted with by Illinar on anything like a regular basis.

Dark wrote:

PerroMalo wrote:My original question was whether the circle could be reused as you describe without the first summon-ee being dismissed.

In answer a brief citation from High Seas, page 76. From the description of the Shedim.

After a few decades of being beat up by the Gallu Bull, the Magot, and the Shadow Beasts, they've learned to hide really, really well. Rather than try to hunt down the missing Shedim, Illinar is always summoning more.

This demonstrates several things at once, though as previously mentioned the activities of NPCs does not always comport perfectly to the rules.

1.) Illinar, the Summoner in question, doesn't have to dismiss and resummon creatures with his Circles. In fact he is careless as only a Mad Summoner can be and simply summons new creatures when he wants them, heedless of the fate of the old ones.

2.) This would appear to demonstrate that creatures can be released from being bound without dismissing them from the dimension via a circle. Since Illinar seems to more or less forget about his erstwhile summons and just summon new creatures, he appears to have done exactly this.

3.) The implication is also there that creatures summoned via Circle Magic are, unlike creatures summoned by most spell magic, permanently present in their new dimension barring being purposefully dismissed or transported elsewhere via some means. The Shedim have been around for years, despite not being controlled or even interacted with by Illinar on anything like a regular basis.

Yes, summoned creatures are directly brought into the realm. They don't vanish after and can choose to leave on their own via dimensional teleport, harass the summoner or follow any other motivations. They are also not only existent by being dominated through the battle of wills, as I referenced above, a summoner can also summon MORE than he can dominate and work out a deal that way too. Kill a summoned demon, it's corpse lays there. It doesn't go poof. That is the REAL creature dead before you. It's why threats of violence can subdue the demon... It doesn't want to be killed or else it goes through the whole dead demon thing handled in some other resource I can't recall.

The palladium Fantasy main book has the offical answer on page 145. to quote the relevent passage:

Deactivation of Summoning Circles: The circle maker can deliberately deactivate a perfectly good, undamaged circle by willingly expending half the P.P.E. it took to make it. Removing one or more key components will effectively shut the circle off, but replacing the component and placing 60 P.P.E. points into it will reactivate the circle. Removing the components and washing or scraping away 50% or more of the circle pattern will destroy it. P.P.E. & Circle Activation: Unless otherwise noted, a summoning circle costs 100 P.P.E. to create and requires a blood sacrifice. Once created, the circle remains activated until it is destroyed. Anybody not restricted by the nature of the circle itself can

From here with the already quoted line we have the offical answer.

1: summoner activates a summoning circle. this remains active until destroyed or deactivated
2: once a creature is summoned, even after it's duration has expired, or it's been sent back home, the circle is still active and cannot call another
3: the only way to use it again to summon another creature is to de-activate it by spending half as much as activating it took the first time
4: Re-activating it for a new summoning requires 60 PPE, not the usual 5 PPE

Nekira Sudacne wrote:The palladium Fantasy main book has the offical answer on page 145. to quote the relevent passage:

Deactivation of Summoning Circles: The circle maker can deliberately deactivate a perfectly good, undamaged circle by willingly expending half the P.P.E. it took to make it. Removing one or more key components will effectively shut the circle off, but replacing the component and placing 60 P.P.E. points into it will reactivate the circle. Removing the components and washing or scraping away 50% or more of the circle pattern will destroy it. P.P.E. & Circle Activation: Unless otherwise noted, a summoning circle costs 100 P.P.E. to create and requires a blood sacrifice. Once created, the circle remains activated until it is destroyed. Anybody not restricted by the nature of the circle itself can

From here with the already quoted line we have the offical answer.

1: summoner activates a summoning circle. this remains active until destroyed or deactivated
2: once a creature is summoned, even after it's duration has expired, or it's been sent back home, the circle is still active and cannot call another
3: the only way to use it again to summon another creature is to de-activate it by spending half as much as activating it took the first time
4: Re-activating it for a new summoning requires 60 PPE, not the usual 5 PPE

Why? Especially in light of the following also from page 145.

Duration: Permanent until destroyed or deactivated by the circle
maker. Once activated, the magic circle remains functioning indefinitely;
all components are magically kept fresh. This means anybody
who knows how, can enter the circle and use it, unless it's "sealed."
To use an active circle of any kind, the user must know the power
words and pump in five P.P.E. points. These simple requirements mean
even a person without magic knowledge can use an active circle provided
he or she has proper instructions and five P.P.E. points available
to him/her. The desire to use the circle is enough to focus and allow the
release of the P.P.E. Note: Most summoning circles (90%) are sealed to
prevent their use by others.

Doesn't that state that a circle being active is usable, at a given cost? I don't see any text that even implies that a circle is in any way not usable again after creation. Instead I see text explicitly stating that it is.

I don't understand the basis of your view.

Because specific rules for specific types of circles trump general rules for all circles. In general any circle may be activated and used freely for 5 PPE once it is active, but summoning circles cannot. They are good for one summon per activation and must be deactivated and reactivated for a new one. The specific vs general thing is important.

Example:
general rule: all wilks guns use standard E-clips
Specific rule: this wilks derringer uses a special mini e-clip

Conclusion: all wilks guns use standard e-clips. Except the one that doesn't. Your reading would mean the derringer can also use standard e-clips dispite said clips being larger than the actual gun with no way to fit.

Summoning circles are given special rules seperate from the general rule. This does not negate the 5 PPE reuse rule for other circles. It just explicitly says use different rules for summoning circles.

Note 60 PPE and no sacrafise is a really good deal, still. Just not as good as only 5 PPE. Still no sacrafice needed past the initial activation.

The 'Reuse A Circle of Any Kind' rule is found on page 137, 145, and 148. It is present within the rules description sections for all three kinds of Circles. Not simply some general text area, and then Summoning Circles being found somewhere else on the side as a special case. The only difference between any of them is that the cost for reuse of a Power Circle is increased to 15 PPE instead of the 5 PPE for Protection and Summoning Circles.

I am also not aware of any statement to the contrary regarding Summoning Circles, implying that the rule doesn't apply to them. Instead ... the rule is found within the section of rules which is stated to apply to them on page 145.

Why then do you conclude that Summoning Circles are an exception?

I have already stated my reasoning. Without it, the 60 PPE rule means nothing because you would pay 5 PPE instead. In which case, what do you think the 60 PPE rule is for?

I'll have another look at the summoning section when I get back to my books. It is possible it does have mutually contradictory text in the same section. This is palladium after all

The rules for 'Deactivation of a Circle' are also repeated in the rules section for each type of Circles (page 138, 145, & 148). The main difference in each section is that the PPE cost for repairing a Circle is changed. 40 for Protection, 60 for Summoning, 100 for Power.

So this rule section is also not unique to Summoning Circles. It is instead a common rules section that applies across all Circle Magic. The rules laid out under the 'Deactivation of a Circle' do several things.

1.) It establishes how a Circle Mage can destroy a Circle without having to physically destroy the diagram. By spending 50% of the PPE necessary to build the Circle, the Circle can be instantly rendered inert. Depending on what a Circle is doing and how quickly you might want it shut down that could be a tactical decision because of the ammount of time it would save.

2.) It establishes that if any of the key ritual components for a Circle are removed, the Circle goes dormant and is no longer usable. Remove the gemstones (or even just one) from a Summon Elemental Forces Circle? It stops working. The components are kept magicall fresh/preserved but the Circle is still susceptible to other types of disruption/activity.

3.) It establishes that it takes 50% or more destruction of a Circle (not counting key components) to shut it down/disrupt it.

4.) The rule for returning components and spending PPE to reactivate it is essentially a rule for repairing a Circle that is partially damaged/disrupted without having to completely rebuild it from scratch. You set it back in proper form and you can quickly repair it with a more minor action than a full ritual for constructing a new one.

There is also precedent for using this rule for switching out certain types of key components to therefore modify an existing Circle before using it again.

Example: The Power Circle of All-Seeing uses components and/or true names to target specific individuals for scrying. It specifies however that those components can be switched out for specifying a new target and 100 PPE (the cost for repairing/reactivating a Power Circle) expended to bring the Circle back online with the new target.

I've seen this example used to do the same thing with the Pawn Circle, changing out the components/true name to target a different individual and expending 60 PPE to bring it back up and use with the new target.

Prysus wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Without it, the 60 PPE rule means nothing because you would pay 5 PPE instead. In which case, what do you think the 60 PPE rule is for?

Greetings and Salutations. I'm looking only at page 145 (which is specifically about Summoning Circles), so if something else contradicts let me know. However, to answer your question ...

Activation and Use are not the same thing, at least not as described in this section. These are different abilities. I'll try to use an example to better explain.

A generator (for this example) powers a light switch. You can put 1 gallon of gas (initial P.P.E. cost) into the generator to get it started (Activation). As long as the generator is still on, the generator can continue to charge itself to keep itself going (lasts indefinitely). When the generator first turns on, the lights automatically come on (initial summons). However, while the generator remains on, anyone can walk up and turn the light switch on (5 P.P.E. to use). To prevent this, you have two choices. 1: Install a lock box over the light switch where only you have the key (seal), or 2: Turn the generator off (deactivate the circle), but then you'll have to put in a 1/2 gallon of gas (60 P.P.E.) to turn the generator back on again (which may be something you don't want to do, unless you feel it's necessary).

The example is clunky and could be better, but if it helps get the concept across I'm content with that. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Perfect analogy actually, and dead on point with the rules.

After reading the counterarguments and double checking the books, I stand corrected. What I get for trying to answer in a hurry

Nekira Sudacne wrote:After reading the counterarguments and double checking the books, I stand corrected. What I get for trying to answer in a hurry

Thank you for participating and being open to hearing an alternative view / additional information.