Mysteries of Magic book2:Dark Magicks

[gaby]

Well I hope they make Mysteries of Magic Book2:Dark Magicks.
Maybe they will add some of the Necro spells from Rifter 62 and 65?

What do you want in it?

[drewkitty ~..~]

If there are not realistic conversions for A. Magic Tattoos from MD/MDC to SD/SDC in the Secrets of the A., then that is what I want to see in the MoM2.

*looks at those that will want to say 'we already have magic conversions'* Go do the math on the tattoo 'magic weapons' and think about what I just said.

[Glistam]

If there are not realistic conversions for A. Magic Tattoos from MD/MDC to SD/SDC in the Secrets of the A., then that is what I want to see in the MoM2.

There is no Tattoo magic in the Palladium Fantasy world. This is discussed in the Chaing-Ku dragon entry in Dragons and Gods, page 23:

The Chiang-Ku are born with a full understanding of magic and some say, a secret, lost mystic art that they never share with others and seldom use. (Note: This secret knowledge is tattoo magic and the creation of the Elixir of Power and Deceit; see Rifts® Atlantis and England; it may be presented in a future fantasy supplement that deals with past ages). However, the Chiang-Ku never uses these powers on the Palladium World because their secrets were lost during the Time of a Thousand Magicks and even hints of them were destroyed during the Millennium of Purification.

They respect the Elves' and Dwarves' decision to eradicate this magic from the Palladium world and do nothing to change this; another example of the Chiang-Ku letting the people of a world choose their own direction. Even using the magic tattoos may entice somebody to attempt to figure out/develop the magic, so most Chiang-Ku will never use them even in a life and death situation, only miscreant and diabolic dragons may consider their use. While most Chiang-Ku won't use tattoo magic in the Palladium World, all have at least a half dozen on their bodies, including the Marks of Heritage mystic symbol of the Eye of Knowledge.

Personally I want to see some more unique branches of magic. Even if it's just a few spells that can be learned by invocation wizards but imply an entire "lost" art.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I think the conversions would be better located in the SotA book due to the longstanding relationship between the two, TA's and Magic Tattoos. Which is why I said things the way I did.
-------
Yes I would like to see more unique magic schools and specialty magics which are limited by ether temperament, link to ""Something"", or a racial requirement. The former being like Temporal magic and the laters being like (respectively) cybermagic, mirror magic and….¿Lem. Biomancy?(don't think there are any with out right racial limitations.)

Maybe some more ArchMage magic (Rifter 0). (Level restricted magics.)

[kiralon]

There is no Tattoo magic in the Palladium Fantasy world. This is discussed in the Chaing-Ku dragon entry in Dragons and Gods, page 23:

snip

Personally I want to see some more unique branches of magic. Even if it's just a few spells that can be learned by invocation wizards but imply an entire "lost" art.

Danzi have tattoo magic in the eastern territories
triple agree with more unique magics.
Better Herbalism/ology/holistic medicine.
and definitely don't want stuff copy pasted from rifts, if I want that stuff ill get the rifts books.

[gaby]

Maybe some New powers for Witch this one and do the Magic spells from Rifter in future MoM?

[drewkitty ~..~]

Maybe some New powers for Witch this one and do the Magic spells from Rifter in future MoM?

Maybe a class write-up for ""Witches"" that were linked to good (non-god) SN beings.

Herbalism is something that can be redone with each setting and get a different class. Mostly due to the different set of magic plants that they can work with due to what is native to the PF world. Which I would believe is greater in numbers and variety then one other worlds because the PF world was where the Old Ones resided. You can see the variety of the 'monster plants' in the PF world sprinkled through most of the books.

[Whiskeyjack]

Being "Dark Magics" it would be nice to see the types of magic that were prevalent during TOATM and subsequently purged during the millennium of purification. It would also be nice to have reasoning as to WHY they were purged.

[Panomas II]

I wrote the necro-spells for #62.

An opinion: the way those spells were edited didn't create the balance point I desired for the class. Using the spells for MoM 2, will take some work if the goal is to create a necromancer class with more appeal.

As far as MoM2 goes, I'd prefer to see what Mark originally cooked up and was cutting room floor material for MoM and go from there. That book had a lot of potential, and I've read some of Mark's stuff about what was cut... It's a heck of lot better then anything I've ever written.

Edit: But, I'm glad you enjoyed the spells gaby, and thank you... Hopefully you were able to implement them in a session or two?

[Rogerd]

For me, I'd want to see more rough and ready circles of magic.
Like we have Elemental, Tattoo and other types.
Something that is easier to use and on the fly, as I tend to think some of the costs for casting are excessive and should be far lower.

[stormlordrising]

Since it is dark magic taking all the shadow magic from all sources and putting it in one place. One of the Rifters had a great article on shadow magic plus some really cool shadow magic items.

[eliakon]

Since it is dark magic taking all the shadow magic from all sources and putting it in one place. One of the Rifters had a great article on shadow magic plus some really cool shadow magic items.

They collated Shadow Magic in the Secrets of the Atlantians book. (The reason is complex but it does include shadow caster classes finally). As such I am not sure they would be willing to reprint it here, nor am I sure it would be a good idea.

We have a lot of dark magics in the various game lines (Mortificant Magic and Flesh Sculpting both leap to mind) that have not been expounded on much. Shadow Magic and Demon Magic have been covered extensively in Rifts and while I am not sure that is optimal I don't think that reprinting recent material in a new book would be a good idea at all.

What I would like to see is some hints and bits of the stuff that got purged. We are told repeatedly that Diabolism and Summoning are just shells of their former glories with only scraps of their former knowledge available...
...and yet in the last few thousands of years we have only seen a couple new circles and one or two wards (most with no or partial stats mind you).

More material on Life Force Wizardry would be nice as well. There are a couple Life Force spells in Mount Nimro... but it could really use some more.

Demon Magic offers a source of some interesting spells that can be rather dark, but offer power...
at the price of requiring blood sacrifices to cast. New Demon magic might be quite interesting, especially as we are told that the infernals use it to tempt magic users to 'the dark side' basically.

[Reagren Wright]

Just wait around and all the different magics that we're original mentioned in PF (Mysteries of Magic) will end up in Rifts or other Palladium books. Ice magic is in
Rifter #70 and Shadow Magic is in Secrets of Atlantis. I'm sure Enchanting, Sex Magic, Protean, and the others will follow suit.

[eliakon]

Just wait around and all the different magics that we're original mentioned in PF (Mysteries of Magic) will end up in Rifts or other Palladium books. Ice magic is in
Rifter #70 and Shadow Magic is in Secrets of Atlantis. I'm sure Enchanting, Sex Magic, Protean, and the others will follow suit.

Well to be fair it diffuses the opposite direction as well as we see with Necromancy, Conjuring and Ocean Magic.

The point I'm making is that
1) I'm pretty sure that stuff like Sex Magic isn't actually going to ever make it into the game which is part of the reason that MoM2 never appeared. The material for it didn't pass muster and there isn't any replacement material to take its place.

2) That if they do actually make a MoM2 book that I don't want more diffusion. If there has to be diffusion then give the conversions of the few specific spells that don't automatically convert across 1:1 and move on. DON'T spend a dozen pages or more reprinting spells that are already in four or five other books, give us new ones.
If, for example, they convert over Flesh Sculpting then I would want to see new stuff. Otherwise I could have just bought the TtGD book and used it as a supplement as printed and what ever you cut to fit that stuff in got wasted.
BUT if there is some new stuff... that's great! Then suddenly the space is worth while because it actually adds to the magic instead of just cutting and pasting whole sections from other books. AND it makes the book sell better because then the players of the other lines have a reason to want to buy it.

3) The best thing about new classes or forms of magic is that they are new. It avoids the "what once was rare is now common" issue that plagues Rifts where by reusing certain magics over and over again as the go-to's they have become ho-hum everyobody does it stuff. Rune Magic, Biomancy, Technowizardry, African Dance Magic, Herbalisim... all were once rare exclusive provinces that have slowly drifted into wider circulation. PF still is the only place that has Zodiac Magic right now, Night Bane is the only place that has Cybermancy, Flesh Sculpting, and Mirror Magic. Some of the unique forms should stay unique... I don't think for example that Cybermancy or Mirror magic has any place on the Palladium world it doesn't fit. But Flesh Sculpting or Mortificication or Herb magic could they do fit.

[Hendrik]

I would still have preferred to see one "Magic of Palladium Fantasy Book" and am very curious what Mark did there. Well, that boat has left the harbour. Anyway.

As to spells, I am, of course, interested to know what "lost magics" and "secret magics" existed, but I do not necessarily need to see the actual spells. That kind of would defeat the whole mystery and purpose of lost/secret. I do not think a book on something that either cannot be used (as then lost/secret would turn into known/used magic) or would only be interesting for the GM as background chatter or very rare use makes so much sense. Abstract descriptions of the kinds of magic that existed and legends about certain iconic examples of the use of that magic would be cool as that is useful in a campaign. I would love to read a lot of fluff text about the history of magic.

That said, I am not a fan of specialist magics and do not see much potential in sex magic and I do not like tatoo magic, but in the sense of wards.

I would love to see

- more ready to use circles (as was suggested above),
- more wards (not tatoo magic),
- more on the witch would be cool (as suggested above),
- more wizard spells,
- more psionics.

Basically I am for augmenting what is there already instead of adding exotic stuff.

Kindest regards
Hendrik

[Library Ogre]

The point I'm making is that
1) I'm pretty sure that stuff like Sex Magic isn't actually going to ever make it into the game which is part of the reason that MoM2 never appeared. The material for it didn't pass muster and there isn't any replacement material to take its place.

The original manuscript is 160,908 words long... 202 pages in Google Docs, with all my formatting included. Sex magic is 843 words, of which I'd probably cut 309 of them if I were writing it today.

The bulk of the manuscript is looking at the existing forms of common magic and how they work. Wizardry, Summoning, Diabolism, and Priestcraft all got their chapter... Alchemy was forced to share with Rune Magic (the horror!), and Cobblers, Psi-Mystics, Warlocks, Witches, and a few others share a chapter.

There was an appendix with a system for large-scale battles (allowing easy if crunchy conversion of groups of individuals to military units), SDC conversions for Mystic Russia Necromancy spells, conversions and updates of spells from the original BTS (which are a lot of reprints, but a few originals in there, as well), an undead monster tied to Druidry, 2e conversions of some Yin-sloth OCCs, a new RCC, a new PCC, a new OCC, a sentence or two about every major magical tradition I could find in Rifts (seriously, the whole section is 922 words and covers 12 different forms of magic), a handy list of witch powers (some reprints, some new), two variants of warlocks, my original version of what became the Forsaken Mage OCC, a similar type of thing for warlocks and priests, some expansion on wereshamans, shamans, and the various churches, a couple thousand words on Rune magic, the Alchemist OCC, magic wands, new alchemical properties, the "Summon God" magic circle, rules for researching new circles and spells, rules for improvising when you're caught short of certain magical components, a comprehensive ward symbol interaction guide (with some new ward symbols tossed in), a discussion of diabolists and circles, a few diabolist Q&As with a bit more info (really, diabolism is one of the thorniest pieces of magic to work with, from a rules standpoint, because there are some many oddball things that will catch you), spellbooks, increasing casting time, a layout of how spells are created, some skills, skill options, familiar rules (borrowed and enhanced from TtGD), magic and profession, magic and race...

Lots of stuff.

(The 2002 version of the manuscript... before I revised it in 2006 due to the RUE, was 153,736 words long but, oddly 225 pages long. The discrepancy drove me nuts for a solid week before I checked the margins)

[eliakon]

The point I'm making is that
1) I'm pretty sure that stuff like Sex Magic isn't actually going to ever make it into the game which is part of the reason that MoM2 never appeared. The material for it didn't pass muster and there isn't any replacement material to take its place.

The original manuscript is 160,908 words long... 202 pages in Google Docs, with all my formatting included. Sex magic is 843 words, of which I'd probably cut 309 of them if I were writing it today.

The bulk of the manuscript is looking at the existing forms of common magic and how they work. Wizardry, Summoning, Diabolism, and Priestcraft all got their chapter... Alchemy was forced to share with Rune Magic (the horror!), and Cobblers, Psi-Mystics, Warlocks, Witches, and a few others share a chapter.

There was an appendix with a system for large-scale battles (allowing easy if crunchy conversion of groups of individuals to military units), SDC conversions for Mystic Russia Necromancy spells, conversions and updates of spells from the original BTS (which are a lot of reprints, but a few originals in there, as well), an undead monster tied to Druidry, 2e conversions of some Yin-sloth OCCs, a new RCC, a new PCC, a new OCC, a sentence or two about every major magical tradition I could find in Rifts (seriously, the whole section is 922 words and covers 12 different forms of magic), a handy list of witch powers (some reprints, some new), two variants of warlocks, my original version of what became the Forsaken Mage OCC, a similar type of thing for warlocks and priests, some expansion on wereshamans, shamans, and the various churches, a couple thousand words on Rune magic, the Alchemist OCC, magic wands, new alchemical properties, the "Summon God" magic circle, rules for researching new circles and spells, rules for improvising when you're caught short of certain magical components, a comprehensive ward symbol interaction guide (with some new ward symbols tossed in), a discussion of diabolists and circles, a few diabolist Q&As with a bit more info (really, diabolism is one of the thorniest pieces of magic to work with, from a rules standpoint, because there are some many oddball things that will catch you), spellbooks, increasing casting time, a layout of how spells are created, some skills, skill options, familiar rules (borrowed and enhanced from TtGD), magic and profession, magic and race...

Lots of stuff.

(The 2002 version of the manuscript... before I revised it in 2006 due to the RUE, was 153,736 words long but, oddly 225 pages long. The discrepancy drove me nuts for a solid week before I checked the margins)

And like I said...
...there was enough material to make a book.
And yet nothing has come of it at all.
To me that rather suggests that the material was, for what ever reason, deemed not suitable in the state it was in.
I can't say why that is though I might venture a few guesses if I really had to. But it doesn't really matter why what matters is that it didn't pass muster. The SDC Necromancer material came in High Seas, Bizantium and Rifter 73. Bizantium is also where the SDC version of Ocean Magic occurred.
As you say, the Forsaken Mage was rewritten from what you presented into what it became.

Which leaves us with the list of things you have above...
...which don't seem to have been things that K.S. decided matched his vision of how he wanted the magic system to go.

So we are still exactly where I said we were.
MoM 2 is in limbo and seems to be that way indefinitely pending the creation of sufficient material that does pass editorial muster to fill the book.

[kiralon]

The point I'm making is that
1) I'm pretty sure that stuff like Sex Magic isn't actually going to ever make it into the game which is part of the reason that MoM2 never appeared. The material for it didn't pass muster and there isn't any replacement material to take its place.

The original manuscript is 160,908 words long... 202 pages in Google Docs, with all my formatting included. Sex magic is 843 words, of which I'd probably cut 309 of them if I were writing it today.

The bulk of the manuscript is looking at the existing forms of common magic and how they work. Wizardry, Summoning, Diabolism, and Priestcraft all got their chapter... Alchemy was forced to share with Rune Magic (the horror!), and Cobblers, Psi-Mystics, Warlocks, Witches, and a few others share a chapter.

There was an appendix with a system for large-scale battles (allowing easy if crunchy conversion of groups of individuals to military units), SDC conversions for Mystic Russia Necromancy spells, conversions and updates of spells from the original BTS (which are a lot of reprints, but a few originals in there, as well), an undead monster tied to Druidry, 2e conversions of some Yin-sloth OCCs, a new RCC, a new PCC, a new OCC, a sentence or two about every major magical tradition I could find in Rifts (seriously, the whole section is 922 words and covers 12 different forms of magic), a handy list of witch powers (some reprints, some new), two variants of warlocks, my original version of what became the Forsaken Mage OCC, a similar type of thing for warlocks and priests, some expansion on wereshamans, shamans, and the various churches, a couple thousand words on Rune magic, the Alchemist OCC, magic wands, new alchemical properties, the "Summon God" magic circle, rules for researching new circles and spells, rules for improvising when you're caught short of certain magical components, a comprehensive ward symbol interaction guide (with some new ward symbols tossed in), a discussion of diabolists and circles, a few diabolist Q&As with a bit more info (really, diabolism is one of the thorniest pieces of magic to work with, from a rules standpoint, because there are some many oddball things that will catch you), spellbooks, increasing casting time, a layout of how spells are created, some skills, skill options, familiar rules (borrowed and enhanced from TtGD), magic and profession, magic and race...

Lots of stuff.

(The 2002 version of the manuscript... before I revised it in 2006 due to the RUE, was 153,736 words long but, oddly 225 pages long. The discrepancy drove me nuts for a solid week before I checked the margins)

And like I said...
...there was enough material to make a book.
And yet nothing has come of it at all.
To me that rather suggests that the material was, for what ever reason, deemed not suitable in the state it was in.
I can't say why that is though I might venture a few guesses if I really had to. But it doesn't really matter why what matters is that it didn't pass muster. The SDC Necromancer material came in High Seas, Bizantium and Rifter 73. Bizantium is also where the SDC version of Ocean Magic occurred.
As you say, the Forsaken Mage was rewritten from what you presented into what it became.

Which leaves us with the list of things you have above...
...which don't seem to have been things that K.S. decided matched his vision of how he wanted the magic system to go.

So we are still exactly where I said we were.
MoM 2 is in limbo and seems to be that way indefinitely pending the creation of sufficient material that does pass editorial muster to fill the book.

So the important question is did you need any playtesters of the material?
It'd be a tough job but I'd be happy to do it

[Panomas II]

The point I'm making is that
1) I'm pretty sure that stuff like Sex Magic isn't actually going to ever make it into the game which is part of the reason that MoM2 never appeared. The material for it didn't pass muster and there isn't any replacement material to take its place.

The original manuscript is 160,908 words long... 202 pages in Google Docs, with all my formatting included. Sex magic is 843 words, of which I'd probably cut 309 of them if I were writing it today.

The bulk of the manuscript is looking at the existing forms of common magic and how they work. Wizardry, Summoning, Diabolism, and Priestcraft all got their chapter... Alchemy was forced to share with Rune Magic (the horror!), and Cobblers, Psi-Mystics, Warlocks, Witches, and a few others share a chapter.

There was an appendix with a system for large-scale battles (allowing easy if crunchy conversion of groups of individuals to military units), SDC conversions for Mystic Russia Necromancy spells, conversions and updates of spells from the original BTS (which are a lot of reprints, but a few originals in there, as well), an undead monster tied to Druidry, 2e conversions of some Yin-sloth OCCs, a new RCC, a new PCC, a new OCC, a sentence or two about every major magical tradition I could find in Rifts (seriously, the whole section is 922 words and covers 12 different forms of magic), a handy list of witch powers (some reprints, some new), two variants of warlocks, my original version of what became the Forsaken Mage OCC, a similar type of thing for warlocks and priests, some expansion on wereshamans, shamans, and the various churches, a couple thousand words on Rune magic, the Alchemist OCC, magic wands, new alchemical properties, the "Summon God" magic circle, rules for researching new circles and spells, rules for improvising when you're caught short of certain magical components, a comprehensive ward symbol interaction guide (with some new ward symbols tossed in), a discussion of diabolists and circles, a few diabolist Q&As with a bit more info (really, diabolism is one of the thorniest pieces of magic to work with, from a rules standpoint, because there are some many oddball things that will catch you), spellbooks, increasing casting time, a layout of how spells are created, some skills, skill options, familiar rules (borrowed and enhanced from TtGD), magic and profession, magic and race...

Lots of stuff.

(The 2002 version of the manuscript... before I revised it in 2006 due to the RUE, was 153,736 words long but, oddly 225 pages long. The discrepancy drove me nuts for a solid week before I checked the margins)

And like I said...
...there was enough material to make a book.
And yet nothing has come of it at all.
To me that rather suggests that the material was, for what ever reason, deemed not suitable in the state it was in.
I can't say why that is though I might venture a few guesses if I really had to. But it doesn't really matter why what matters is that it didn't pass muster. The SDC Necromancer material came in High Seas, Bizantium and Rifter 73. Bizantium is also where the SDC version of Ocean Magic occurred.
As you say, the Forsaken Mage was rewritten from what you presented into what it became.

Which leaves us with the list of things you have above...
...which don't seem to have been things that K.S. decided matched his vision of how he wanted the magic system to go.

So we are still exactly where I said we were.
MoM 2 is in limbo and seems to be that way indefinitely pending the creation of sufficient material that does pass editorial muster to fill the book.

This is the challenge of freelancing on the finger... It's more likely than not, that Kevin didn't agree with the scope of the material or what he thought it might accomplish in play. Obviously, Mark did (which is why he wrote it), and I would assume he checked and double check the reference material to balance things... You have to double check (maybe even triple check) because as the writer you aim to get as close to the original material as you can, make sure nothing is over-powered or unreasonable to what has come before. Occasionally you have to check it a fourth time, because the Palladium system is rife with various inconsistencies. It's a lot of work.

Even with just the small collection of necromancy spells I wrote for the Rifter, which Kevin made "official." In my opinion, he somewhat neutered those spells in 'editing.' Don't get me wrong that was his choice and his right to do so... And while the scope of the spells (or the core idea) remained pretty much the same, the P.P.E. cost/damage/spell duration etc was usually changed. I totally found myself disagreeing with what was done. Not just because "I" (and my ego) wrote it, but because I didn't agree with the changes in the scope of what was written before, what the spells were trying to do, and the reference material I made essential to write those spells.

Admittedly, I was trying to make the class a bit more utility oriented... And I pretty much ran my own idea into an RPG buzzsaw... Oh, well...

[drewkitty ~..~]

If there are not realistic conversions for A. Magic Tattoos from MD/MDC to SD/SDC in the Secrets of the A., then that is what I want to see in the MoM2.

*looks at those that will want to say 'we already have magic conversions'* Go do the math on the tattoo 'magic weapons' and think about what I just said.

We got these in SotA...
So a ""new"" want.

In addition to the another section of the already written text.....
Conversions of spells in the Rifts that have not a SDC/SD counterpart but that also 'work' within the concept of the Fantasy settings. I would also like 'whoever chooses' the spells to include in this to pick those spells that don't work well with the standard conversion rules.

[eliakon]

If there are not realistic conversions for A. Magic Tattoos from MD/MDC to SD/SDC in the Secrets of the A., then that is what I want to see in the MoM2.

*looks at those that will want to say 'we already have magic conversions'* Go do the math on the tattoo 'magic weapons' and think about what I just said.

We got these in SotA...
So a ""new"" want.

In addition to the another section of the already written text.....
Conversions of spells in the Rifts that have not a SDC/SD counterpart but that also 'work' within the concept of the Fantasy settings. I would also like 'whoever chooses' the spells to include in this to pick those spells that don't work well with the standard conversion rules.

and sometimes the conversion I WANT to be horrible.
Yes, I think that some spells the conversion from MDC to SDC should result in horribly neutered weak spells.
To me that's not a bug, that's a feature. It, to me, allows for the higher magic level/state/whatever of the MDC world to be brought home fully. Some spells only really work BECAUSE they are using that MD level energy field. Some spells might not do much, if anything, with out such a boost.
As I see it that makes the system more robust and more realistic and helps explain why some of the spells in the MDC worlds are not wide spread in the SDC worlds and vice versa... because they don't 'scale' properly across and thus to a researcher in the other world they would seem to be pointless dead ends or novelties.

[Torval]

We have a lot of dark magics in the various game lines (Mortificant Magic and Flesh Sculpting both leap to mind)

My search-fu is failing me. Can you tell me what book Mortificant Magic is in?

[Glistam]

We have a lot of dark magics in the various game lines (Mortificant Magic and Flesh Sculpting both leap to mind)

My search-fu is failing me. Can you tell me what book Mortificant Magic is in?

Rifter #50. It's "Official" magic for the Nightbane game line.

[Axelmania]

I understand why good Chaing-Ku could respect the Elves' decision, I doubt evil ones like Rama-set would care though.

The problem with tats is primarily how much more damage flaming weapons ought to do compared to bleeding ones.

[Lukterran]

I personally would like to see the non-magic and non-psionic classes get some love. Perhaps a 3rd Edition. Currently if your character does not have magic or psionic you substandard. Since most magic users can multi-role with the generalization of hand to hand combat.

A 4th level human Wizard and 4th level human Merc Fighter with (both without exceptional attributes) with W.P. Sword and Hand to Hand: Expert have exactly the same bonuses. Except the Merc fighter can't cast spells. So it is obvious which class players will prefer to play.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I do not want to turn the PB systems into something like D&D where every class gets magic at some point in their advancement. (yep, that statement ignores the psionic classes...I don't have those D&D books. So I will not say anything about them.)

Besides for most mage type classes it costs two skill slots to have h2h expert. And fighter classes tend to have h2h Expert as their default (OCC) h2h. So the mage class chars are paying a cost to get the greater h2h.

[eliakon]

I personally would like to see the non-magic and non-psionic classes get some love. Perhaps a 3rd Edition. Currently if your character does not have magic or psionic you substandard. Since most magic users can multi-role with the generalization of hand to hand combat.

A 4th level human Wizard and 4th level human Merc Fighter with (both without exceptional attributes) with W.P. Sword and Hand to Hand: Expert have exactly the same bonuses. Except the Merc fighter can't cast spells. So it is obvious which class players will prefer to play.

That's not true on soooo many levels
1) There is skill selection. Ignoring the fact that most magic classes don't get access to a lot of the combat skills that fighters do. A mage needs to spend their skills both for their magic and anything else. A fighter can afford to load up on W.P.s and Physical Skills and such... because that is what they are doing. A mage to equal that fighter has to take those skills too... which means they CAN'T take the languages, and Lores, and other magical skills that will allow them to excel in their own field.
2) Then there are the armor rules, which are particularly harsh in PF (limits on who can wear what, encumbrance rules, the whole 'mages get penalized in armor' thing... you know that stuff.
3) Oh, and most fighter types get one of the advanced H2H skills for free, where as magic and psi classes have to pay for theirs.
4) Plus most fighter types get more starting SDC
5) Don't forget that most mage classes have stat requirements that are not in combat stats... so you have to optimize your rolls differently. A fighter type can afford to just focus on PP, PS, and PE as those are the stats that matter for combat. A Mage has to worry about IQ, PE, often ME...AND if they want to be a good fighter they need to then also have PP and PS
6) This ignores the fact that saving throws are no joke in this game. The average mage has a SS of 12, and will rarely get more than one or two more points added to that. Where as PE, a number of magic items, and even various OOCs all grant bonuses to save. It is not hard at all to make it a 50/50 or better chance that a spell will not affect you. Which rules out a lot of spells right there.

And frankly... if you give everyone magic.
1) you make playing a mage a lot less appealing at all
2) you utterly change the setting as suddenly it is not a mighty and secret thing known to a handful... but basically a given that everyone and maybe their dog has magic.
3) It simply turns your complaint around 180[sup]o[/sup]. Now the Fighter types have all the power and the mages are the "why bother" ones.


In conclusion... If I want to play in a world where everyone has magic and mages are coddled until they turn into strategic weapons... I would play 3rd edition D&D or what ever they are on know.

As it is when you go into character creation there are a number of choices that you make at the start. If you want to be good at melee, good at spells, good at psi, good at ranged attacks, or a hybrid of more than one area. Then you pick a class that gives you what you want. If you want to be a good Melee/Caster then you make an Undead Slayer. if you want ranged you make one of the archer classes. Fighters make Knights or Mercenaries. Magic goes with a Wizard or Warlock. A Hybrid Mage/Psi will play a Mystic and so it goes. Everyone ends up having a niche, that way everyone in the party has a purpose. Everyone is good at some things and bad at others and as a result it makes the party a party and not a group of individuals that are traveling together.

[Whiskeyjack]

I didn't read anything in his post about giving fighters magic. Just giving them some special abilities. For the most part, a fighter is a fighter is a fighter in Palladium.

[eliakon]

I didn't read anything in his post about giving fighters magic. Just giving them some special abilities. For the most part, a fighter is a fighter is a fighter in Palladium.

You mean besides being the only ones who can take W.P. Paired?
And don't take extra penalties for wearing heavy armor?
Oh, and the ability to raise your WP skill above your level?

But in general I was assuming that comment in the MoM thread was about magic.
That may have been a bit hasty...
...but I STILL loathe D&D3e and don't want to have it be the new ideal for Palladium
I don't want feats in the game.
I don't want easy class crossing and taking a few levels in this or that.
I absolutely do not want prestige classes in the game

A few of the things that have been in the rifters might be good to make canon (the archery proficiencies for instance), and some of the various skills from some of the various game lines would be good to make more universal and accessible. A few more "Men at Arms exclusive" skills might be helpful as well.

But to much tinkering and you basically wipe out the game you had and are telling everyone to start over.
And that would be the end of Palladium.
Most of the books these days are being bought by a loyal group of die hard fans. Fans who have often invested hundreds if not thousands of dollars in their game collections confident that anything they buy they will still be able to use. If you make everything they have bought before worthless...
...well Palladium isn't WoC they don't have the market share and clout to make everyone buy everything over again. Nor do they have the staff to rewrite everything they have now, let alone write up a selection of new material (one of the saving graces of the various edition changes for D&D was that they released new worlds to explore).

For good or for ill any changes to the system have to be slow and incremental and can't make everything that came before obsolete.

[Whiskeyjack]

But all fighters can take WP paired. There is no restriction. A soldier/mercenary/knight are all pretty much the same thing from a game perspective. The only difference is really in the text. Some way to show what differentiates one from the other would be good. For example, giving a soldier a bonus when fighting alongside other soldiers since they can fight in formation. Mercs being able to use improvised weapons or something similar. I still think Paladins should be linked to a church personally. Nothing game changing, just something that would differentiate the classes.

[kiralon]

Wizards get wp paired at level 7 with hth expert just like everyone else

[The Beast]

I personally would like to see the non-magic and non-psionic classes get some love. Perhaps a 3rd Edition. Currently if your character does not have magic or psionic you substandard. Since most magic users can multi-role with the generalization of hand to hand combat.

A 4th level human Wizard and 4th level human Merc Fighter with (both without exceptional attributes) with W.P. Sword and Hand to Hand: Expert have exactly the same bonuses. Except the Merc fighter can't cast spells. So it is obvious which class players will prefer to play.

That's not true on soooo many levels
1) There is skill selection. Ignoring the fact that most magic classes don't get access to a lot of the combat skills that fighters do. A mage needs to spend their skills both for their magic and anything else. A fighter can afford to load up on W.P.s and Physical Skills and such... because that is what they are doing. A mage to equal that fighter has to take those skills too... which means they CAN'T take the languages, and Lores, and other magical skills that will allow them to excel in their own field.
2) Then there are the armor rules, which are particularly harsh in PF (limits on who can wear what, encumbrance rules, the whole 'mages get penalized in armor' thing... you know that stuff.
3) Oh, and most fighter types get one of the advanced H2H skills for free, where as magic and psi classes have to pay for theirs.
4) Plus most fighter types get more starting SDC
5) Don't forget that most mage classes have stat requirements that are not in combat stats... so you have to optimize your rolls differently. A fighter type can afford to just focus on PP, PS, and PE as those are the stats that matter for combat. A Mage has to worry about IQ, PE, often ME...AND if they want to be a good fighter they need to then also have PP and PS
6) This ignores the fact that saving throws are no joke in this game. The average mage has a SS of 12, and will rarely get more than one or two more points added to that. Where as PE, a number of magic items, and even various OOCs all grant bonuses to save. It is not hard at all to make it a 50/50 or better chance that a spell will not affect you. Which rules out a lot of spells right there.

And frankly... if you give everyone magic.
1) you make playing a mage a lot less appealing at all
2) you utterly change the setting as suddenly it is not a mighty and secret thing known to a handful... but basically a given that everyone and maybe their dog has magic.
3) It simply turns your complaint around 180[sup]o[/sup]. Now the Fighter types have all the power and the mages are the "why bother" ones.


In conclusion... If I want to play in a world where everyone has magic and mages are coddled until they turn into strategic weapons... I would play 3rd edition D&D or what ever they are on know.

As it is when you go into character creation there are a number of choices that you make at the start. If you want to be good at melee, good at spells, good at psi, good at ranged attacks, or a hybrid of more than one area. Then you pick a class that gives you what you want. If you want to be a good Melee/Caster then you make an Undead Slayer. if you want ranged you make one of the archer classes. Fighters make Knights or Mercenaries. Magic goes with a Wizard or Warlock. A Hybrid Mage/Psi will play a Mystic and so it goes. Everyone ends up having a niche, that way everyone in the party has a purpose. Everyone is good at some things and bad at others and as a result it makes the party a party and not a group of individuals that are traveling together.

You also left out that this setting still uses the old spell casting rules and not the RUE version.

[Prysus]

I didn't read anything in his post about giving fighters magic. Just giving them some special abilities. For the most part, a fighter is a fighter is a fighter in Palladium.

You mean besides being the only ones who can take W.P. Paired?

Greetings and Salutations. Actually, from what I can tell, there's no such rule in Palladium Fantasy. While RUE introduced this rule (BtS2 and/or Splicers may also have the rule, I didn't check), that's not a rule in PF. So a 1st level Wizard could select W.P. Paired Weapons just as easily as a 1st level Mercenary.

And don't take extra penalties for wearing heavy armor?

That extra penalty is to Speed, and that's it. Unless they're in a foot race, this isn't much of an issue. A smart warrior might be able to use this to his/her advantage, but I want to clarify the only difference is a Spd attribute penalty (at least mechanically).

Also, it's arguable whether or not the spell Weightlessness would work on a suit of armor (is this one item, or several?). If it does work, going by the Weightless armor on page 249 of the PF2 main book, the Wizard would gain the advantage and the Mercenary would be the one suffering a lot more penalties. Just one simple, low level spell the Wizard has access to and the Mercenary cannot do. Note: This isn't factoring in Armor of Ithan which can easily be a starting spell for the Wizard and also surpasses Plate Mail (which a warrior type doesn't get to start with, and has to really work to attain).

Oh, and the ability to raise your WP skill above your level?

I have no clue what you're referring to here. Is this an actual PF rule? I'll settle for an official Palladium rule in general. The closest I can think of is an interpretation of one of the N&S martial art skills, but that's very specific (and if what I'm thinking, I've seen different interpretations). I'm not aware of any official rule that lets Men at Arms raise their W.P. above their character level. If I'm missing it somewhere, I'd love to know for research purposes.

But in general I was assuming that comment in the MoM thread was about magic.
That may have been a bit hasty...

While it's magic adjacent, I do agree this seems rather off topic. Still, what I gathered from the comment was:

"I'd love to see the equivalent of a Palladium Fantasy Ultimate Edition, where they put in something unique to make the Men at Arms stand out from the others."

I'll use RUE as an example, with Eye Ball a Fella for the Vagabond, Rogue Scholars being able to teach, etc. Now those are non-combat classes, though I think the Rifts Men at Arms already stood out a bit better (Cyber-Knights had their Psi-Sword at level 1, Juicers and their Auto-Dodge, Glitter Boys and their massive range and damage, etc.). Things like making Paired Weapons only for Men at Arms is also a bonus (that currently doesn't exist in PF). In PF a Mercenary has ... skills. A Soldier has ... skills. Technically the Merc and the Soldier also get a small bonus to Pull Punch. They also have a bonus to Save vs. Horror Factor, but the Wizard will beat that save until around double digit levels.

Men at Arms are supposed to have dedicated their lives to war/fighting. Except, by the rules, they're really not any better at it than a Wizard. With two or three skill selections, a Wizard could probably stand toe-to-toe with a Mercenary from level 1 through level 15 ... except the Wizard also has the option for spells. Sure, he sacrificed some skills for combat, so maybe he's not as good as the dedicated Wizard (and that's only if in the campaign the lack of languages and lores actually holds him back from learning more spells). But you know what? He's almost on par with the Mercenary in a fight, and he's definitely a better spell caster than the Mercenary. Note: Men at Arms do have the advantage of access to Boxing, and most (but not all) have access to Wrestling as well.

Yes, there's more to role-playing than combat, but (in PF) Men at Arms don't really stand out at what they're supposed to excel at.

A few of the things that have been in the rifters might be good to make canon (the archery proficiencies for instance), and some of the various skills from some of the various game lines would be good to make more universal and accessible. A few more "Men at Arms exclusive" skills might be helpful as well.

But to much tinkering and you basically wipe out the game you had and are telling everyone to start over.
And that would be the end of Palladium.
Most of the books these days are being bought by a loyal group of die hard fans. Fans who have often invested hundreds if not thousands of dollars in their game collections confident that anything they buy they will still be able to use. If you make everything they have bought before worthless...
...well Palladium isn't WoC they don't have the market share and clout to make everyone buy everything over again. Nor do they have the staff to rewrite everything they have now, let alone write up a selection of new material (one of the saving graces of the various edition changes for D&D was that they released new worlds to explore).

For good or for ill any changes to the system have to be slow and incremental and can't make everything that came before obsolete.

While a PF 3.0 was mentioned, I think the hope was more for a PF:UE style than a full on new edition. While I can deal with the system as is, I definitely wouldn't object to some extra rules/abilities (not spells or feats necessarily) that let Men at Arms shine in their field.

I've personally been working on developing more Hand to Hand styles to better separate the classes. However, that's a personal choice. Some may like my methods and some may not. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[eliakon]

Oh, and the ability to raise your WP skill above your level?

I have no clue what you're referring to here. Is this an actual PF rule? I'll settle for an official Palladium rule in general. The closest I can think of is an interpretation of one of the N&S martial art skills, but that's very specific (and if what I'm thinking, I've seen different interpretations). I'm not aware of any official rule that lets Men at Arms raise their W.P. above their character level. If I'm missing it somewhere, I'd love to know for research purposes.

Optional rule, page 78 of MoM 1

But in general I was assuming that comment in the MoM thread was about magic.
That may have been a bit hasty...

While it's magic adjacent, I do agree this seems rather off topic. Still, what I gathered from the comment was:

"I'd love to see the equivalent of a Palladium Fantasy Ultimate Edition, where they put in something unique to make the Men at Arms stand out from the others."

I'll use RUE as an example, with Eye Ball a Fella for the Vagabond, Rogue Scholars being able to teach, etc. Now those are non-combat classes, though I think the Rifts Men at Arms already stood out a bit better (Cyber-Knights had their Psi-Sword at level 1, Juicers and their Auto-Dodge, Glitter Boys and their massive range and damage, etc.). Things like making Paired Weapons only for Men at Arms is also a bonus (that currently doesn't exist in PF). In PF a Mercenary has ... skills. A Soldier has ... skills. Technically the Merc and the Soldier also get a small bonus to Pull Punch. They also have a bonus to Save vs. Horror Factor, but the Wizard will beat that save until around double digit levels.

Men at Arms are supposed to have dedicated their lives to war/fighting. Except, by the rules, they're really not any better at it than a Wizard. With two or three skill selections, a Wizard could probably stand toe-to-toe with a Mercenary from level 1 through level 15 ... except the Wizard also has the option for spells. Sure, he sacrificed some skills for combat, so maybe he's not as good as the dedicated Wizard (and that's only if in the campaign the lack of languages and lores actually holds him back from learning more spells). But you know what? He's almost on par with the Mercenary in a fight, and he's definitely a better spell caster than the Mercenary. Note: Men at Arms do have the advantage of access to Boxing, and most (but not all) have access to Wrestling as well.

Yes, there's more to role-playing than combat, but (in PF) Men at Arms don't really stand out at what they're supposed to excel at.

I can see that.
I will withdraw my statement as your explaination is, as usualy thurough, fair and comprehsive.
Wes PF:UE could be of benefit (your archery skills for the archer classes for instance would help them stand out)

[Prysus]

Optional rule, page 78 of MoM 1

Greetings and Salutations. Interesting. I've looked at that section before and never noticed that. I must've skimmed passed thinking it fluff text leading to the New Skills. Having read it now ...

1: Interesting rule. Not sure if I'd ever use it though. I like the concept, but not sure about the execution. I'd probably have to house rule (modify) it if I were going to use it.

2: Unfortunately, this would have the same issue as most of the rest of the current system. If a Wizard wanted he could specialize in a W.P. just as easily as the Mercenary could.

With that said, I appreciate the reference. Always enjoy learning new things and like knowing my options. I'll try to keep this in mind for future reference, whether it's in my writing or future forum discussions. Farewell and safe journeys.