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Do Demons and Faeries reproduce in the same way as mortals, or by some other method?

IMO, no, they don't reproduce naturally. I lean towards faeries just "being"... sometimes, a new faerie comes into being, usually around other faeries. More rarely, a faerie who has been around a while might fade out of existence.

I haven't read the Minion War stuff, so they might have more to say, but I view demonic creatures as being similar, though I also add witches and the possessed as being proto-demons* in many cases... a witch will likely become a demon after death, and someone who dies from possession without being exorcised likely will, as well, the original demonic spirit reforming as its own self.

Both are likely to have some exemptions... I like the idea of part-faerie or part-demon individuals... but you're not going to have races of tieflings like D&D does, with the demonically descended being a separate breed (though, of course, you've got several breeds of degenerate fay as PC races, so maybe I'm wrong).

*Demon, Deevil, etc.; I'm not going to say it explicitly, each time.

I do believe the LotD2 book has some text that talks about family ties.

actually i rather like the DMFA approach to Fae.. a variety of reincarnanation, really.
http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_785.php
though obviously the "can only die if they want to" bit would not apply in PB's games (DMFA fae being omnipotent and near omnescent, and PB's faeries being decidedly not)
though i'd add the extra wrinkle that in high magic environments (like rifts earth) sometimes when the process happens, you get several new ones, the 'soul' absorbing the ambient energy of the place and splitting. which would make places like rifts earth valuable to them because it allows their population to grow.

Iron Sorcerer wrote:Do Demons and Faeries reproduce in the same way as mortals, or by some other method?

It's a process called sex, not sure I could survive the mods if I described it in any detail though.

Basically, it involves a girl and a guy spending alot of time together(though quickies also exist).

Though demons, by the books, can also start as ex-mortals, and thus seek to reform back into them....

I tend to assume, unless the books say a race cannot reproduce, that they tend to do it through the human means and at the human speeds.

Death Demons I would except since they already have an alternative parasitic means of reproduction.

There is a deific power which lets you change mortals into lesser demons. I think that can be stripped with Dispel Deific Power but otherwise it'd be hard to discern the difference.

Fairies look human enough, I'd let them do it at human rates, or maybe closer to elven considering their lifespans.

I've always viewed faeires as coming into being through mystical means. Perhaps during ley line storms, conjunctions, and eclipses etc.
Most lesser demons like gargoyles, I've always assumed normal procreation. Greater demons are known for seducing mortals. I would play it that any child from such a union would eventually grow into their demon heritage.

Faeries are CoM not demons. So reproduce in the normal M/F fashion.

Can't demons get REborn at an accelerated rate through a mortal pregnancy instead of eggs on the ground? Similar rules could be used simply for creating new demons. Maybe borrow the prolonged HP expenditure from deific sacrifices from 2 parents?

Dunno if it should be asexual cloning or if the token females of Hades and Dyval (succubi and Nexus Deevils) are rewarded for putting forth most of the effort.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Faeries are CoM not demons. So reproduce in the normal M/F fashion.

This is how I see faerie reproduction.

When a new baby laughs for the first time a new fairy is born! Or some other crap like that.

Well here is what we DO know.
1) It is possible to turn mortal souls into Demons
2) It is possible to turn mortal souls into Deevils
3) Off the top of my head I can think of two species of Demon that reproduce sexually in canon
4) Faeries by canon have blood relations to other Faeries which means that by some means one or more faeries are involved in the process to pass on said blood ties
5) Both Demons and Faeries come in male and female varieties.
6) The Twin Demon Princes on page 175 of DB 10 are explicitly called out as having parentage.
7) I believe several OTHER demons in the books are also called out as having parents and children

Based on all of this I think we can safely assume that Demons and Faeries reproduce the old fashioned NC 18+ way.

Mortals can become Demons either via Death Demons / Demon Knights.

I don't know how they would become "Deevils" (Dyvalians preferred, to distinguish from the Lesser Devil / Lesser Deevil race) though. The deific ability may not qualify as a true transformation since it can be cancelled by other deities.

I believe in 1e PRPG the Jinn were actually described as offspring between Demons/Devils, implying some unknown parent species of both categories could reproduce.

I think there was also something about Witches who promised their children to Demon Lords / Devil Lords reproducing with a metamorphed demon to do so. I don't know what that would mean for the species of the offspring though.

Based on this it would be interesting if demons could not reproduce with each other, but that they could reproduce with mortal species. So you could have male demons impregnating human women or human men impregnating female demons, but male demons could not impregnate female demons?

What also comes to mind is the Quidnunc in Dragons + Gods who are the sterile merger of human+demon (or was that sub-demon?) into 1 being. I had thought it was only talking about sterilizing the human half but maybe it meant sterilzing both halfs.

The Quidnunc were a singe deity's creation, and only one was fertile, they were still experimenting with them IIRC. So, not a good example IMO.
THe witch reproducing with demons/devils might be a thing though. Hmmm, Don't know what that would do to children but keep in mind that demons can reform into humans. So some demons might start as humans.....

You speak as if you were contradicting me by saying "only one was fertile" when I had mentioned the Quidnunc were sterile.

My point is: you could view their sterility as only being contrast to their human side (because demons are already sterile) or a contrast to BOTH sides (because demons are not sterile).

I don't know if 2e has anything about witch/demon reproduction but it's a great idea to borrow from PF.

If ONLY witches could reproduce, that would explain why demons haven't spiraled out of control, and a major purpose of witches.

Though it wouldn't really explain male witches too well, because I don't think many demonesses would want to spend time being pregnant.

Is there a spell for turning a male witch into a woman to carry children? I remember D+G mentioned goddesses doing that sort of gender-swapping. Even if Metamorphosis: Human covered that, duration is the central problem here because it would be for naught if you reverted to male mid-pregnancy...

That or somehow possible ala Arnold in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junior_(1994_film)

THey don't have sides, they are one new being.

I didn't say the sides were present tense. They did have sides in past-tense, which can be acknowledged as precursors. Page 132 says "Usually the resulting being is neuter" and "Only one "sexed" Quidnunc has ever been made".

So this might not be about fertility at all but rather about having a sex. Given that Demons and Fairies do appear to have sexes, I think we should assume any sexed race reproduces by default until told otherwise.

Re-noticing the contrast between "humanoid" in left column and "pass as human .. human O.C.C." on right...

I wonder if the Quidnunc were able to reproduce, if it might require that both parents had the same mortal race and same demon class prior to merger?

eliakon wrote:3) Off the top of my head I can think of two species of Demon that reproduce sexually in canon

Could you cite which ones, i'm kind of curious now....

SolCannibal wrote:

eliakon wrote:3) Off the top of my head I can think of two species of Demon that reproduce sexually in canon

Could you cite which ones, i'm kind of curious now....

Gargoyles lay eggs

The Mo-lo have children, the Mara Ashura... children that are full fledged greater demons! In fact the only way to get a Mara Ashura demon is to have it be fathered by a Mo-lo demonlord!

The Naga Demon has children with mortals that are semi-human and semi-divine/demonic

We have several Sucubus demons in canon who have mothers.

We have various other demons who are the children of various demon/deevillords and/or gods.
Deevil Dragons explicitly mate and lay eggs... the majority of which then turned over to the Deevil lords to be remade into Shock-Dragons. The majority though, not all.

I can double check for more examples as I know there are some... but that is what I can remember off the top of my head.

Oh yes... the Demon Flies have 'breeding grounds'

eliakon wrote:

SolCannibal wrote:

eliakon wrote:3) Off the top of my head I can think of two species of Demon that reproduce sexually in canon

Could you cite which ones, i'm kind of curious now....

Gargoyles lay eggs

Gargoyles as demons are kind of debatable, but ok.

eliakon wrote:The Mo-lo have children, the Mara Ashura... children that are full fledged greater demons! In fact the only way to get a Mara Ashura demon is to have it be fathered by a Mo-lo demonlord!

The Naga Demon has children with mortals that are semi-human and semi-divine/demonic

Nice, where do i find them?

eliakon wrote:We have several Sucubus demons in canon who have mothers.

Remember or two of those references? Reading material is always good to mine for ideas & stuff.

eliakon wrote:We have various other demons who are the children of various demon/deevillords and/or gods.

eliakon wrote:Deevil Dragons explicitly mate and lay eggs... the majority of which then turned over to the Deevil lords to be remade into Shock-Dragons. The majority though, not all.

Deevil Dragons are sort of an outlier like Gargoyles - though in whole different ways.

As an aside, the Deevil Dragons' case makes me think if the forces of Hades - or maybe some infernal playing its all war schemes by the wayside - getting themselves a similar deal to some other "lesser dragons" like Basilisks, Cockatrices or Wooly Dragons (that while possessed of considerable physical power and P.P.E. have no magic of their own), or supernatural monsters that hates true dragons guts', like Beast Dragons (CB1), Demon-Dragonmages (WB12) or others.

Page 204 of Rifts Japan (world book mentions "Oni Mystics are demons" and calls them "the natural-bom leaders" then says they're "born as mystics". Doesn't actually say HOW they are born though...

China 1 Yama Kings (world book 24)
*128 "White Monkeys are natural born bullies"
*131 the Ying Hsuan Shang is "A natural born killer"
*142 "Natural born bullies" used for demons in general

part of one of the witch pact blurbs

"To copulate, impregnate, or become fertile by the person (or demon) of the devil/ demon lord's choice. This stipulation is not always a condition in this type of pact"
so human/demon is possible.

kiralon wrote:part of one of the witch pact blurbs

"To copulate, impregnate, or become fertile by the person (or demon) of the devil/ demon lord's choice. This stipulation is not always a condition in this type of pact"
so human/demon is possible.

perhaps Deevils and Demons can reproduce using humans as hosts for their offspring? so not actually a human/demon cross so much as using a human woman as a living incubator for a pure demon offspring?

glitterboy2098 wrote:

kiralon wrote:part of one of the witch pact blurbs

"To copulate, impregnate, or become fertile by the person (or demon) of the devil/ demon lord's choice. This stipulation is not always a condition in this type of pact"
so human/demon is possible.

perhaps Deevils and Demons can reproduce using humans as hosts for their offspring? so not actually a human/demon cross so much as using a human woman as a living incubator for a pure demon offspring?

Well, i guess it would depend on what else the book informs us about the offspring resulting of this kind of pact, no?

glitterboy2098 wrote:

kiralon wrote:part of one of the witch pact blurbs

"To copulate, impregnate, or become fertile by the person (or demon) of the devil/ demon lord's choice. This stipulation is not always a condition in this type of pact"
so human/demon is possible.

perhaps Deevils and Demons can reproduce using humans as hosts for their offspring? so not actually a human/demon cross so much as using a human woman as a living incubator for a pure demon offspring?

That's the way I would play it. Palladium is really set against half races. Basically ogre/human or god/mortal are the only ones the rules seem to allow.

actually, such a scheme might be a way to bypass the long wait time before a given demon/deevil can return to a dimension.. stick a recently discorporated demon/deevil into one of those human incubators in whatever dimension they need agents in, using a ritual of some kind. the witch carries it a few months, gives birth, the demon/deevil matures to full size rapidly. one way to create an army in an area rapidly.

glitterboy2098 wrote:actually, such a scheme might be a way to bypass the long wait time before a given demon/deevil can return to a dimension.. stick a recently discorporated demon/deevil into one of those human incubators in whatever dimension they need agents in, using a ritual of some kind. the witch carries it a few months, gives birth, the demon/deevil matures to full size rapidly. one way to create an army in an area rapidly.

Well, creating an army through that would require an humongous number of witches, that pretty much means you already had an army (though not of demons/devils per se).

They ****.

SolCannibal wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:actually, such a scheme might be a way to bypass the long wait time before a given demon/deevil can return to a dimension.. stick a recently discorporated demon/deevil into one of those human incubators in whatever dimension they need agents in, using a ritual of some kind. the witch carries it a few months, gives birth, the demon/deevil matures to full size rapidly. one way to create an army in an area rapidly.

Well, creating an army through that would require an humongous number of witches, that pretty much means you already had an army (though not of demons/devils per se).

not exactly.. the witch could just be the intermediary, used to help facilitate the ritual. but presumably you would not have to be a witch to incubate a demon. might explain the stories of covens.. a small number of actual pact witches, and a larger number of mundane women serving the demon(s) and hoping to gain enough favor to become a pact witch..

but yeah, you aren't going to be raising a huge army that way.. but it would be one way to insert a team of demons into a reality covertly, which could then work to open a portal so the actual army can come through.

glitterboy2098 wrote:

SolCannibal wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:actually, such a scheme might be a way to bypass the long wait time before a given demon/deevil can return to a dimension.. stick a recently discorporated demon/deevil into one of those human incubators in whatever dimension they need agents in, using a ritual of some kind. the witch carries it a few months, gives birth, the demon/deevil matures to full size rapidly. one way to create an army in an area rapidly.

Well, creating an army through that would require an humongous number of witches, that pretty much means you already had an army (though not of demons/devils per se).

not exactly.. the witch could just be the intermediary, used to help facilitate the ritual. but presumably you would not have to be a witch to incubate a demon. might explain the stories of covens.. a small number of actual pact witches, and a larger number of mundane women serving the demon(s) and hoping to gain enough favor to become a pact witch..

but yeah, you aren't going to be raising a huge army that way.. but it would be one way to insert a team of demons into a reality covertly, which could then work to open a portal so the actual army can come through.

Also, this would cover something beside the "using the witch pact modality for reproduction" angle that started this whole ball rolling.

Give all this *fun* talk about Demons and Faeries giving rise to the next gen I wonder if demons and devils have a from of hellish marriage as for the Wee Folk I don't think they have marriage given that most of them are such flightily, free spirits.

SolCannibal wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:

SolCannibal wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:actually, such a scheme might be a way to bypass the long wait time before a given demon/deevil can return to a dimension.. stick a recently discorporated demon/deevil into one of those human incubators in whatever dimension they need agents in, using a ritual of some kind. the witch carries it a few months, gives birth, the demon/deevil matures to full size rapidly. one way to create an army in an area rapidly.

Well, creating an army through that would require an humongous number of witches, that pretty much means you already had an army (though not of demons/devils per se).

not exactly.. the witch could just be the intermediary, used to help facilitate the ritual. but presumably you would not have to be a witch to incubate a demon. might explain the stories of covens.. a small number of actual pact witches, and a larger number of mundane women serving the demon(s) and hoping to gain enough favor to become a pact witch..

but yeah, you aren't going to be raising a huge army that way.. but it would be one way to insert a team of demons into a reality covertly, which could then work to open a portal so the actual army can come through.

Also, this would cover something beside the "using the witch pact modality for reproduction" angle that started this whole ball rolling.

reading through my copy of Dyval for the first time, apparently something similar to this is one of the ways Deevils can reincarnate. see page 17 "reborn through mortal birth". though apparently it does not require any sort of ritual, and it says witches are rarely used for the purpose. it also seems to indicate the Deevil 'possesses' an existing unborn infant.

For simplicity, I'd say whether a demon becomes a human women and is impregnated by a human male, or a demon becomes a human male and impregnates a human woman, the result is always human because that is the race both parents were during conception, regardless of what forms the demon might shift to afterward.

The only exception might be Greater Demon Lords who are usually on the level of gods with deific powers, I don't see a problem with allowing them (or more powerful Alien Intelligences) to create Demigod equivalents with any species they are capable of morphing into.

Rifts Atlantis page 132's description of Dragon Statues is also food for thought:

"The most fearsome of the living rune statues is that of a full figure dragon. The weapon requires a greater supernatural being like an ancient dragon, god, greater elemental, demon lord, etc.," and is the most powerful but least common of all the rune statues.

Aside from "god" and "demon lord" being listed together, in the same tier is listed "greater elemental" (who we know are alien intelligences) and "ancient dragon", so the latter 2 could be considered as additional options to house-rule as Demigod-impregnators if you're open to considering supplementing Gods with Demon Lords.

Rifts Atlantis 127 includes an even broader swath to consider if you want to house-rule to expand this further:

Greater supernatural beings, including gods, godlings, ancient dragons, spirits of light, greater elementals, greater demons and demon lords are needed to create the most powerful rune weapons.

This supplements the previous list by also listing Godlings, Spirits of Light and Greater Demons as "Greater Supernatural Beings".

The "Athanatos" in Nightbane World Book 4: Shadows of Light seem like a pretty clear example of what happens when Spirits of Light impregnate humans with their essence. That might serve as a template on how to treat the empowered offspring of Godlings / Greater Demons. This trinity, despite also being GSBs, should probably be on a lower tier of power compared to the holy quaternity of Gods, Demon Lords, Greater Elementals and Ancient Dragons.

SolCannibal wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:

kiralon wrote:part of one of the witch pact blurbs

"To copulate, impregnate, or become fertile by the person (or demon) of the devil/ demon lord's choice. This stipulation is not always a condition in this type of pact"
so human/demon is possible.

perhaps Deevils and Demons can reproduce using humans as hosts for their offspring? so not actually a human/demon cross so much as using a human woman as a living incubator for a pure demon offspring?

Well, i guess it would depend on what else the book informs us about the offspring resulting of this kind of pact, no?

SolCannibal wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:actually, such a scheme might be a way to bypass the long wait time before a given demon/deevil can return to a dimension.. stick a recently discorporated demon/deevil into one of those human incubators in whatever dimension they need agents in, using a ritual of some kind. the witch carries it a few months, gives birth, the demon/deevil matures to full size rapidly. one way to create an army in an area rapidly.

Well, creating an army through that would require an humongous number of witches, that pretty much means you already had an army (though not of demons/devils per se).

Dimension Book 10 page 20 right column "The host mother" alternative to "the long rebirth" is certainly one explanation for this pact. Basically an "I'm impregnating you with myself" idea reminiscient of Marvel Comics' Marcus Immortus.

The "reproduce with a demon" pact isn't forbidden to male witches though... then again, there are probably ways for demons to turn male witches into women while necessary using permanence-warded metamorphosis magic...

True, though as an aside that might be relevant to the matter or not, one may point out WB2's idea of god & demon lord was somewhat lower-powered, based on the entities on Vampire Kingdoms and maybe the Conversion Book, than the considerably more puisant ones we would get in Pantheons of Megaverse or Dragons & Gods.