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If I want to take a martial art from Ninjas & Superspies for a Physical Training character, does that replace - Step 4: Special Hand to Hand Combat (Aggressive and Deadly Combat or Defensive and Fast Combat) or would that be in addition to either of those combat styles?

I would just play a N&SS character in HU2 rather than try to convert the rules to make a special Physical Training character, but that's just me.

RAW: No special combat abilities, and no PT fighting style (as per Gramercey Island: 140)

I had never noticed that in Gramery Island until now. It's not bad as a short way of doing it...but I'm not sure how much it a) captures the differences between 2nd Edition Physical Training heroes & their Revised Edition predecessors, & b) not sure how well it meshes with the official conversion rules in Ninjas & Superspies.

The conversion rules are on p. 164 of N&SS (Revised Edition) -- my copy of the original edition is at work right now (using my breaks & lunch to do a side-by-side comparison), so I think it's around p. 89 in that edition -- & are based on HU Revised Edition.

Assuming you only let them pick one martial art form (yes, from what I can remember, original edition gave them options for picking one or two forms), & based on how Physical Training changed going to 2nd Edition, the following might work better:

• Lose 3 of your Physical skills (original rules cost you 50% of your Physical skills), 4 if you pick Ninjitsu or Thai Kick Boxing
• Lose 2 of your Espionage skills, all 4 if you pick NInjitsu or Thai Kick Boxing
• Lose half of your Secondary skills, or all of them if you pick Ninjitsu or Thai Kick Boxing
• Pick a martial art form that corresponds to the particular Focus you selected. If you pick one that doesn't match your focus, the normal reductions to your bonuses apply.
• Everything else (eductation - 1 skill program, bonuses from focus, special abilities, etc.) should be used as normal.

I would agree that Zanji Shinjinken-Ryu belongs to the Aggressive & Deadly Combat Focus (as would Thai Kick Boxing or Sumo, for example). If you pick the Defensive & Fast Combat Focus, you probably would pick something like Ninjitsu or Aikido, although Bok Pai Crane Style Kung Fu & Pao Pat Mei Leopard Style Kung Fu would also be good choices. If you're unsure about whether a form belongs to 1 focus or the other, look at the attribute bonuses that the form grants (+2 or higher bonuses to PS and/or PE, and/or +10 or higher S.D.C. bonuses, should be Aggressive & Deadly; +2 or higher PP and/or +4 or higher SPD bonuses should be Defensive & Fast Combat); note that for some forms the attribute bonuses don't give a clear picture. In those cases, look at the "Why study XXXXX?" note at the end of each form for additional clues.

• Isshin-Ryu Karate only grants a +1 bonus to PS, PE & PP, only a +3 bonus to SPD, & no S.D.C. bonus; this doesn't make it very clear bonus-wise which focus would fit. However, the end section says that it's a "softer" form that's better suited for defense instead of offense. That makes it a perfect candidate for a character with the Defensive & Fast Combat Focus.
• Li-Chia Short-Hand Kung Fu, on the other hand, may only give a +1 bonus to PE & PP, but it gives a +4 bonus to SPD; however, it also gives a +20 bonus to S.D.C. Technically, that leaves it available for either Focus. However, the end section points out that it lacks a lot of the defensive moves of other forms, & notes that its easy KO/Stuns & Critical Strikes are one of its strong points (by 9th level, you can KO/Stun on a natural 19 or 20, Critical Strike on a natural 19 or 20 or from Behind, & deal a Death Blow on a natural 19 or 20). That makes it a perfect candidate for someone with the Aggressive & Deadly Combat Focus.

If that still doesn't make it clear, you may just have to discuss it with the GM.

green.nova343 wrote:I had never noticed that in Gramery Island until now. It's not bad as a short way of doing it...but I'm not sure how much it a) captures the differences between 2nd Edition Physical Training heroes & their Revised Edition predecessors, & b) not sure how well it meshes with the official conversion rules in Ninjas & Superspies.

The conversion rules are on p. 164 of N&SS (Revised Edition) -- my copy of the original edition is at work right now (using my breaks & lunch to do a side-by-side comparison), so I think it's around p. 89 in that edition -- & are based on HU Revised Edition.

Assuming you only let them pick one martial art form (yes, from what I can remember, original edition gave them options for picking one or two forms), & based on how Physical Training changed going to 2nd Edition, the following might work better:

• Lose 3 of your Physical skills (original rules cost you 50% of your Physical skills), 4 if you pick Ninjitsu or Thai Kick Boxing
• Lose 2 of your Espionage skills, all 4 if you pick NInjitsu or Thai Kick Boxing
• Lose half of your Secondary skills, or all of them if you pick Ninjitsu or Thai Kick Boxing
• Pick a martial art form that corresponds to the particular Focus you selected. If you pick one that doesn't match your focus, the normal reductions to your bonuses apply.
• Everything else (eductation - 1 skill program, bonuses from focus, special abilities, etc.) should be used as normal.

I would agree that Zanji Shinjinken-Ryu belongs to the Aggressive & Deadly Combat Focus (as would Thai Kick Boxing or Sumo, for example). If you pick the Defensive & Fast Combat Focus, you probably would pick something like Ninjitsu or Aikido, although Bok Pai Crane Style Kung Fu & Pao Pat Mei Leopard Style Kung Fu would also be good choices. If you're unsure about whether a form belongs to 1 focus or the other, look at the attribute bonuses that the form grants (+2 or higher bonuses to PS and/or PE, and/or +10 or higher S.D.C. bonuses, should be Aggressive & Deadly; +2 or higher PP and/or +4 or higher SPD bonuses should be Defensive & Fast Combat); note that for some forms the attribute bonuses don't give a clear picture. In those cases, look at the "Why study XXXXX?" note at the end of each form for additional clues.

• Isshin-Ryu Karate only grants a +1 bonus to PS, PE & PP, only a +3 bonus to SPD, & no S.D.C. bonus; this doesn't make it very clear bonus-wise which focus would fit. However, the end section says that it's a "softer" form that's better suited for defense instead of offense. That makes it a perfect candidate for a character with the Defensive & Fast Combat Focus.
• Li-Chia Short-Hand Kung Fu, on the other hand, may only give a +1 bonus to PE & PP, but it gives a +4 bonus to SPD; however, it also gives a +20 bonus to S.D.C. Technically, that leaves it available for either Focus. However, the end section points out that it lacks a lot of the defensive moves of other forms, & notes that its easy KO/Stuns & Critical Strikes are one of its strong points (by 9th level, you can KO/Stun on a natural 19 or 20, Critical Strike on a natural 19 or 20 or from Behind, & deal a Death Blow on a natural 19 or 20). That makes it a perfect candidate for someone with the Aggressive & Deadly Combat Focus.

If that still doesn't make it clear, you may just have to discuss it with the GM.

Exactly that.

Back in Revised Heroes, you couldn't take exclusive styles, when Bill wrote Gramercy, he was trying to tie the N&SS books into the Heroes 2e world, and decided that exclusives weren't over powered when compared with the upgrades that the Physical training class and the ancient master had gained between the editions. He was adding play-ability to the game via Century Station and Gramercy Island.

Now, be aware when playing, that N&SS game mechanics are ancient and you can end up with some weirdness in game when you have two conflicting game mechanics. Also in game with super humans, they can be a little under powered if other members of the group have higher numbers of powers or are using the more powerful majors in the Powers Unlimited books. Might not be an issue, depending on your particular build, and if you do find a deficiency, some hardware or simple gimics could balance things out. Another option might be the martial arts styles from Rifts Japan. A bit more in keeping with the HU2E rule set, and most of the mechanics, in fact all of them as far as I know, fit right into the HU2E envrions.

PT should be able to take any MA form N&SP this is how I run it in my games. But to be honest i tend to run a high powered campaign overall.

1. you lose step 4. Add only 2d6 to H.P and 1D4X 10 to S.D.C you receive all the other bonus of step 3. Plus all the bonus to whatever style you choose

2. If you decide to take a second style subject to GM approval you. Add only 2D4 to H.P and 1D4X5 to S.D.C you receive all the other bonus of step 3. Plus all the bonus to whatever style you choose

Lose 3 of your Physical skills (original rules cost you 50% of your Physical skills), 4 if you pick Ninjitsu or Thai Kick Boxing
Lose 2 of your Espionage skills, all 4 if you pick Ninjitsu or Thai Kick Boxing
Lose half of your Secondary skills, or all of them if you pick Ninjitsu or Thai Kick Boxing