Painting a target

[dragonfett]

I just thought of a question for the masses to discuss: Could you make a missile that splatters paint over a wide radius to impair to vision of power armor and robot vehicles?

Or use paintball guns to do the same?

[taalismn]

I just thought of a question for the masses to discuss: Could you make a missile that splatters paint over a wide radius to impair to vision of power armor and robot vehicles?

Or use paintball guns to do the same?

Don't see why not.
Effectiveness would vary on the opacity and adhesiveness of the substance used. A water-based paint, for instance, would slide right off with a quick dip in some water.
Or how competent the power armor user is at NOT punching their helmet off trying to wipe the stuff of his lenses.
I think there's some rules for paint-based weapons in the Ludicrous Mage spells.

[eliakon]

I just thought of a question for the masses to discuss: Could you make a missile that splatters paint over a wide radius to impair to vision of power armor and robot vehicles?

Or use paintball guns to do the same?

In theory...
Maybe?
Though this would raise a few questions.
The biggest question to me would be "How come what ever it is that is used to allow power armor and robot vehicles to see normally when they get dirty not working here"
The can of worms here is that this makes a hand full of mud just as effective for instance...
And it makes one question why the idea that people were using these to get around in the ash falls of the cataclysm because of the vision issues...if they are actually simple to disable visually.

My, personal, view would be to assume that the systems are fairly robust and involve things like micro-robot cleaners and high-tech non-stick surfaces.
But that is just my view.
Since in my opinion Tech already has enough problems it doesn't need even more flaws and vulnerabilities stacked on.

[glitterboy2098]

I just thought of a question for the masses to discuss: Could you make a missile that splatters paint over a wide radius to impair to vision of power armor and robot vehicles?

Or use paintball guns to do the same?

In theory...
Maybe?
Though this would raise a few questions.
The biggest question to me would be "How come what ever it is that is used to allow power armor and robot vehicles to see normally when they get dirty not working here"
The can of worms here is that this makes a hand full of mud just as effective for instance...
And it makes one question why the idea that people were using these to get around in the ash falls of the cataclysm because of the vision issues...if they are actually simple to disable visually.

My, personal, view would be to assume that the systems are fairly robust and involve things like micro-robot cleaners and high-tech non-stick surfaces.
But that is just my view.
Since in my opinion Tech already has enough problems it doesn't need even more flaws and vulnerabilities stacked on.

if the paint is viscous or fast drying enough the cleaning systems might be slowed down long enough for at least a bit of tactical advantage. the real difficulty would be working out balanced mechanics for it.

[taalismn]

"WHY ISN'T THIS WORKING LIKE IT SHOULD?!"
"Windshield wipers."

[dreicunan]

I just thought of a question for the masses to discuss: Could you make a missile that splatters paint over a wide radius to impair to vision of power armor and robot vehicles?

Or use paintball guns to do the same?

In theory...
Maybe?
Though this would raise a few questions.
The biggest question to me would be "How come what ever it is that is used to allow power armor and robot vehicles to see normally when they get dirty not working here"
The can of worms here is that this makes a hand full of mud just as effective for instance...
And it makes one question why the idea that people were using these to get around in the ash falls of the cataclysm because of the vision issues...if they are actually simple to disable visually.

My, personal, view would be to assume that the systems are fairly robust and involve things like micro-robot cleaners and high-tech non-stick surfaces.
But that is just my view.
Since in my opinion Tech already has enough problems it doesn't need even more flaws and vulnerabilities stacked on.

I wholeheartedly agree with eliakon here. For power armor and robot vehicles I would also assume that they have at least a few back-up cameras to fall back on.

[Zer0 Kay]

I just thought of a question for the masses to discuss: Could you make a missile that splatters paint over a wide radius to impair to vision of power armor and robot vehicles?

Or use paintball guns to do the same?

In theory...
Maybe?
Though this would raise a few questions.
The biggest question to me would be "How come what ever it is that is used to allow power armor and robot vehicles to see normally when they get dirty not working here"
The can of worms here is that this makes a hand full of mud just as effective for instance...
And it makes one question why the idea that people were using these to get around in the ash falls of the cataclysm because of the vision issues...if they are actually simple to disable visually.

My, personal, view would be to assume that the systems are fairly robust and involve things like micro-robot cleaners and high-tech non-stick surfaces.
But that is just my view.
Since in my opinion Tech already has enough problems it doesn't need even more flaws and vulnerabilities stacked on.

No the real can of worms this opens, if allowed, is... If missiles always strike the main body and their blast radius is only applied to the main bodies of other objects within that blast radius then how does the paint missile's blast radius cover the arms, legs and head of the target and all other objects within the blast radius? If the paint missile is a missile and ALL missiles are supposed to act the same then wouldn't just the main body of all targets within the blast radius be covered?

[Zer0 Kay]

"WHY ISN'T THIS WORKING LIKE IT SHOULD?!"
"Windshield wipers."

Because it is a superglue base with a super slick finish... really it is just Crisco (TM)

[eliakon]

I just thought of a question for the masses to discuss: Could you make a missile that splatters paint over a wide radius to impair to vision of power armor and robot vehicles?

Or use paintball guns to do the same?

In theory...
Maybe?
Though this would raise a few questions.
The biggest question to me would be "How come what ever it is that is used to allow power armor and robot vehicles to see normally when they get dirty not working here"
The can of worms here is that this makes a hand full of mud just as effective for instance...
And it makes one question why the idea that people were using these to get around in the ash falls of the cataclysm because of the vision issues...if they are actually simple to disable visually.

My, personal, view would be to assume that the systems are fairly robust and involve things like micro-robot cleaners and high-tech non-stick surfaces.
But that is just my view.
Since in my opinion Tech already has enough problems it doesn't need even more flaws and vulnerabilities stacked on.

No the real can of worms this opens, if allowed, is... If missiles always strike the main body and their blast radius is only applied to the main bodies of other objects within that blast radius then how does the paint missile's blast radius cover the arms, legs and head of the target and all other objects within the blast radius? If the paint missile is a missile and ALL missiles are supposed to act the same then wouldn't just the main body of all targets within the blast radius be covered?

Okay your right
It has many many cans full of many worms (some of the cans contain cans themselves...its cans all the way down!)
I should have said "One of the many cans of worms here is that..."

[wyrmraker]

In a game a looong while ago, a character in the group loaded his Snow Lion's grenade launcher with airburst paint grenades. The GM at the time was overly fond of Naruni Active Camo Armor, and this was a way around that.
That having been mentioned, I really don't see why paint rounds would be ineffective. Heck, latex house paint would be devastating to any camera or viewing port, and I could've sworn that there was something like a paintball or paint cannon larded with metal filings to disrupt sensor masts in one of the Northern Gun books.

[kaid]

We are already making nanomaterials that shed various liquids almost instantly. I would imagine all the optical systems power armor/robots use would be some highly advanced version of this where it would take some really specialty materials not to just get shed instantly. Given all the stuff that flies up at you in war and how impractical it would be to open your vehicle up to clean things off in combat I have to assume they are designed to self clean most gook that could happen in a fight that may obstruct them.

[boring7]

Blindness offers a surprisingly small penalty.

The robot/power armor sensor suites are often vague and contradictory, so whether or not the visor could go dark and "use instrument navigation" is also unclear.

Related: I still don't understand how glitterboy skin doesn't stop working the moment it gets dusty. But by that same token a decent amount of smoke/dust ends the usefulness of any laser weapons becaus-*ERROR* USER DELETED BY AUNT PHYLLIS.

Edit: Okay, in all seriousness I'd probably go with this:

First, there's a chance any power armor has run into this tactic and has a cheapish (does not impact resale value) solution as an after-market add-on. A cryo-spray that freezes or a heat blast that bakes followed by an automated chisel/scraper that cleans the solidified paint (or mud, it's not a complex tactic we're talking about here) off automatically. Say 20%. Then there's a 43% chance (so 21-63) chance they have a cheaper mod that does the same thing but takes an action to use, probably punching the frozen/cooked paint with an SDC pulled punch (i.e. gotta make that pull punch roll). The last 64-100 means they have to take 2 actions, make a piloting check, or just fight blind because for whatever reason they never learned that "kick dirt in da face" is a thing people can do.

Alternatively, drop an incendiary grenade (Merc ops and/or mercenaries) to do 1 MD to your armor and bake off anything that splatted you because, you know, mega-damage.

Most of the time, it costs the target 1 or more actions to deal with. But not so many that they are as instantly crippled as, say, getting hit with magic net.

[dragonfett]

Consider someone driving a vehicle at half max speed suddenly unable to see and having to tak an action to clear the viewports.

[eliakon]

Consider someone driving a vehicle at half max speed suddenly unable to see and having to tak an action to clear the viewports.

Which is one of the reasons why I would, as a GM laugh at this.
If something looks like its a cheap and easy "I win button" then chances are its probably not a reasonable and fair option.
Or put another way...
if everyone could easily be taking out vehicles reliably all the time with simple paint...
...why would people be spending millions on expensive explosives?

As I and others have said... the technology of Rifts is so advanced that its pretty much handwavium.
Add in the fact that this paint (unless it is some sort of super complex instantly hardening epoxy of some sort) should, by all rights simply slide off (unless the GM is already routinely blinding everyone that has dust or any other sort of grit or grime on their armor/vehicle/whatever.) and add in the fact that paint doesn't harden for hours (and since we have materials NOW that repel liquids and paints...).

I am still not convinced that this could be done in the first place.
And that if it could be done by some faction with super advanced chemical technology... that it should be done.

This all said...
if the GM is fine with setting up a precident that technology is easy to neutralize and that power armor, vehicles, tanks, robots, mecha, and the like are useless against a vagabond with a can of spray paint...
that's their business.
But I have a suspicion that the results will end up quickly going places that no one wants (aka making technology pretty much useless in that game)

[boring7]

Consider someone driving a vehicle at half max speed suddenly unable to see and having to tak an action to clear the viewports.

I'm thinking "not much". If they're moving that fast they're either already making impressive piloting checks or they're piloting in an area that's pretty open and safe enough to "coast" for, what, 7 seconds TOPS?

Then there's crashing rules, which are complicated but often rather easy to survive, depending on the vehicle.

Realism: Realistically a paint-filled water balloon can WRECK things. You're driving along and suddenly your windshield is cracked, covered in something you can't see through, and the people on the overpass above you have committed a felony. Also realism: the jokesters sitting on top of the overpass with the balloon get shot for looking suspicious in dangerous territory because it's a military vehicle with gunners on point.

But this is Rifts, realism takes a back seat. Let's look at game rules: Per the game rules being blinded is a bad but not "game over man!" debuff. It is less dangerous than a number of other weapons and crippling debuff attacks or even just making a good called shot with a particularly heavy weapon (boom gun does avg 105 damage, skull walker viewport has 45, if memory serves). And radar instrumentation can punch through a lot of things, so your paint needs to be an interesting mix of things and your delivery method needs to hit the target before you just get blapped.

To address the "makes tech worthless" comment, consider this: You create a paint-rocket that does a targeted debuff...vs EVERYTHING. There's no reason it won't blind and coat Brizzlebricks the Sorcerer and/or his Mighty Summoned War Steed. And the proposed paint rocket itself is a technological item that tries to do something besides go "boom" like the breadth of spells and sorceries that Line-Walkers can throw.

[Tiree]

I would treat it very much like smoke missiles. Quick and dirty GM ruling that already has rules to follow.

[Zer0 Kay]

I just thought of a question for the masses to discuss: Could you make a missile that splatters paint over a wide radius to impair to vision of power armor and robot vehicles?

Or use paintball guns to do the same?

In theory...
Maybe?
Though this would raise a few questions.
The biggest question to me would be "How come what ever it is that is used to allow power armor and robot vehicles to see normally when they get dirty not working here"
The can of worms here is that this makes a hand full of mud just as effective for instance...
And it makes one question why the idea that people were using these to get around in the ash falls of the cataclysm because of the vision issues...if they are actually simple to disable visually.

My, personal, view would be to assume that the systems are fairly robust and involve things like micro-robot cleaners and high-tech non-stick surfaces.
But that is just my view.
Since in my opinion Tech already has enough problems it doesn't need even more flaws and vulnerabilities stacked on.

No the real can of worms this opens, if allowed, is... If missiles always strike the main body and their blast radius is only applied to the main bodies of other objects within that blast radius then how does the paint missile's blast radius cover the arms, legs and head of the target and all other objects within the blast radius? If the paint missile is a missile and ALL missiles are supposed to act the same then wouldn't just the main body of all targets within the blast radius be covered?

Okay your right
It has many many cans full of many worms (some of the cans contain cans themselves...its cans all the way down!)
I should have said "One of the many cans of worms here is that..."

NObody EXPECTS the CANISH INQUISITION!!!!

[ShadowLogan]

I just thought of a question for the masses to discuss: Could you make a missile that splatters paint over a wide radius to impair to vision of power armor and robot vehicles?

Or use paintball guns to do the same?

Yes you could, but the pilot(s) still have their other sensors (cameras, radar, motion detectors, etc) to fall back on. Interestingly enough, as standard equipment both PA/'Bots have radar, but they don't have any camera system (this does not mean models exist that don't have them, like Samas and Glitterboy, but they are not included in the standard equipment list for either class of vehicle in RMB (pg211-2/214) or RUE (pg271/273) and could potentially communicate with someone else to be their eyes (they all have radio afterall).

There is also the dispersal pattern of the paint with either method, you might not get complete coverage. Mythbusters did a few episodes where they painted with explosives, uniformity was not something that was demonstrated in terms of coverage. So you could potentially have range of impaired vision to consider.

If missiles always strike the main body and their blast radius is only applied to the main bodies of other objects within that blast radius then how does the paint missile's blast radius cover the arms, legs and head of the target and all other objects within the blast radius? If the paint missile is a missile and ALL missiles are supposed to act the same then wouldn't just the main body of all targets within the blast radius be covered?

Well considering the blast radius of missiles, for PA it isn't much of an issue given they are under 12ft tall and the radius is such that unless you use Mini-Missile AP you'll get total coverage to the arms/legs/head (or 10ft+ PA vs HE Mini's/SRM-AP). Robot vehicles are going to be harder, probably more of a case by case basis.

Still the missiles would explode covering everything in the radius, they are essentially smoke/fire-retardant. For rules purposes though you could take the missile rules to apply only to direct damaging attacks (which is the intent IMHO), though the rules themselves also imply that they could still be impacted given (imply might be to weak a word since...) it states "As noted previously, everyone and everthing else in the blast radius suffers half damage. (RUE pg363) and even RMB has something similar ("The specific target of the missile takes FULL DAMAGE, while all else in the blast radius takes half damage"-pg42). So you could consider the main body the target, and do damage to everything else in the radius (including limbs for the target). Granted the example of combat in RMB (maybe even RT1E) doesn't do damage to various locations from a single strike for tracking purposes. Though nothing prevents non-damaging effects from having an impact on the PA/bots outside the main body provided they have the blast radius.

One way to avoid the issue though is to just not allow it for missiles and stick to paint guns. If the Mytbusters tests with Painting with explosives are anything to go by you could "miss" areas with paint. So a more effective approach would probably be paintguns and not paint-explosives.

if everyone could easily be taking out vehicles reliably all the time with simple paint...
...why would people be spending millions on expensive explosives?

True, but what does one consider "taking out vehicles reliably" here. It may work for ambush/traps, but straight combat it probably isn't going to stop someone from firing blinding (or take some direction when firing blind, or have some other sensor to fall back on, or some method of cleaning it off). So it might be effective when it works (given the right circumstances), but it might not be overall practical for general situations (unlike the explosives).

[Blue_Lion]

I just thought of a question for the masses to discuss: Could you make a missile that splatters paint over a wide radius to impair to vision of power armor and robot vehicles?

Or use paintball guns to do the same?

I would say yes. The fire retardant missile spread a chemical that sprays an area of 20' for srm.(the foam in theory could be used to impair vision.)

Now there is a chance that it could cover a windshield or sensors but personally I would allow a save to maintain visibly for game balance.

I would rule that you can not use paint balls in rail guns. (size of round and nature means such rounds would be at best for training if even possible, not something rifts society would waist resources on fielding in my opinion as they could use VR training if they have a training budget for PA.)

Note PA visors bots windows are likely a type of self cleaning glass like we have now.(or a better tech)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-cleaning_glass

That means true paint may just roll off the visor after a few seconds without sticking.