CS armament

[Jason Richards]

Hi guys.

I was prepping some Open House stuff and left wondering about what CS soldier loadouts were the most iconic. This is for a "new style" soldier, but I know many artists and players prefer some of the old weapon designs, so those might fit better.

What weapons are most iconic in the hands of the following CS troops, do you think? I've noted my thoughts, but feel free to give any answer you want.

Grunt - Fire Breather? Or something new style?
Psi-Stalker - neural mace is the no brainier here, right?
Ranger - a sidearm? Maybe more likely to carry an old style than the Grunt.
Juicer - Forearm claws? Heavy weapon?

[glitterboy2098]

i've generally assumed that the loadouts are more state-specific**

so a Grunt from Chitown would generally be wearing CA-4 and carrying a CP-40 and a C-20 (or C-5)
Iron Heart would be CA-2, while carrying a C-12 and the C-18.
while one from Missouri would be using CA-1, a C-10, and probably not an MDC sidearm, because it has to acquire its gear from the more industrial states, and tends to get the hand me downs.
weapons like the C-14/CP-50 are specialists weapons, with maybe one or two to a squad. the C-27/C-29 are the same way, with maybe one or two to a platoon.

and Rangers and other special forces i would imagine are more likely to carry new style, regardless of which state they are from***, since they have a number of items specifically made for them, and are more liekly to be part of a centralized non-state-specific command.


**basically, this come to two things. first, the CS is not as monolithic as a lot assume.. the different states are constantly being indicated as having distinct local governments, social differences, and value to the CS as a nation. they might have an emperor, but each state does seem to have some degree of independence. the military too is usually described in rather state specific language, suggesting that they might not be a total monolithic mixing pot.
so in my games, each state is required to arm and equip their own military force, according to CS-wide guidelines and regulations (one of the reason's FQ's glitterboy's were a sore point). the field armies (such as those used to fight FQ and tolkeen) are drawn from these state forces, and the CS rotates some units around to other states regularly as part of training and familiarization programs. but unless assigned to a major field army the state is the one required to provide equipment, personnel, etc. (with field armies falling under a central logistical 'pool' that all states contribute to, though they try to keep personnel from the same state together in the same units where possible.)
the reason the states have different mixes of gear is a combination of politics and industrial production.. the centers of industry for military gear are limited (by design, for security purposes.) while every state has the ability to produce something, most only produce the basics like CA-3, C-10's, and the other older and simpler gear. anything else (newer armor, better weapons, power armor, robots, vehicles, etc) are only produced in Iron Heart, Chitown, or Lone Star. as a result, those three states are likely to have the best gear (of the stuff they make), and all the other states have to arrange trade deals and stuff to acquire items from them. (CS missouri, being one of the newest states, has not developed much industry or distinct hardware yet, so they are having to rely on imports to suppliment their limited production.. so they are mostly getting the gear that Chitown and Ironheart are retiring in favor of the new stuff.)
each industrial center also has a distinct 'style'.. the rounded "anime" looking gear like the CA-3/4/6 armor, the mauler, the GBkiller, Smiling jack and super Samas, etc, are Chitown produced, pretty much replacing all the older gear in terms of production. the "older style" looking new gear lie kthe CA-7, the Striker SAMAS, the terro trooper, etc? that would be Iron Heart built. two different modernization programs that ran concurrently. (which explains why there are so many items duplicating roles) Lonestar is a specilized more towards dogboys and other mutants, and the gear to supply them. (free quebec's new gear was its own modernization program, only instead of competing with the other two in the arms acquisition area, it would up fighting them on the battlefield after FQ left the CS.)

***the rangers and other special forces would be like the CS navy.. operating as an organization drawing on all the states for personnel and equipment, since there are comparatively fewer troops involved, and their role is less state specific. as a result the units tend to have a mix of people from different states, and equipment drawn from the same common logistical pool as the field armies use, only the special forces would have higher priority claims, so they can get the best gear.

[Killer Cyborg]

Any of the old-style gear is good.

[dragonfett]

I can see the Rangers using the C-10 (that's the one with with the special scope, right?)

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

If we're talking "standard loadout", then for grunts, its a CP-40, whatever the new side-arm pistol is, and some grenades.
A few guys in the squad have the CP-50.
Officers can use whatever they like but standard issue is the Officers sidearm and CP-50. (Same with NCOs likely).
A few guys in a platoon (maybe one per squad, its not clear) carry a C-29. Other carry spare ammo cannister clips for him.

Old school, replace them all with their extant equivalent (C-12, C-14 instead of CP-50, etc).

"Standard issue" of course.

[guardiandashi]

My thought is that you have a mix, IE you really have "front line" and secondary gear.

All the CS states can make some level of gear, but there are cases where they may not be able to issue the newest stuff.

I will use chi town for an example: they have access to, and in most cases make everything. The issue they will have, is production of the newest gear. Let's say they have the capability to make 100,000 c-14's a month but only 50,000 cp-40s if they had been making the 14's for 20 years, they could have made up to 24 million of the 14's they more than likely have a ton of them stockpiled, so they switch to production of the 40 but until the reserve supply reaches some number they are effectively not issued and until they have say 1 million of the guns they are going to be ... "rare"

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

My thought is that you have a mix, IE you really have "front line" and secondary gear.

All the CS states can make some level of gear, but there are cases where they may not be able to issue the newest stuff.

I will use chi town for an example: they have access to, and in most cases make everything. The issue they will have, is production of the newest gear. Let's say they have the capability to make 100,000 c-14's a month but only 50,000 cp-40s if they had been making the 14's for 20 years, they could have made up to 24 million of the 14's they more than likely have a ton of them stockpiled, so they switch to production of the 40 but until the reserve supply reaches some number they are effectively not issued and until they have say 1 million of the guns they are going to be ... "rare"

Except CWC was pretty clear that the new weapons and armor werent even officially revealed until there was enough of them to gear up the entire active front line Army. Only “backwater” forces and auxiliary units had to wait for the new gear.

Now, like i said, a lot of troops (any veterans, NCOs, Officers, and Special Forces) are allowed to keep their “Old Style” weapons, so they can really be carrying whatever you want. I was just talking “standard issue”.

[TeeAychEeMarchHare]

As far as the old style stuff goes, I always looked at the C-12 as the standard issue with the C-14 being a "one per fire team" kind of thing. Same with the C-27. Similar to how the US.mil does with the M203 and M249.

With the new stuff I'd just use whatever replaced the weapons in question.

I think you pretty well got it with the Psi-Stalker.

Ranger could be damn near anything, since IIRC they're allowed to carry damn near whatever they want, including non-CS weapons (except Naruni).

Juicer, probably something either very precise or heavy, with a lot of power. A C-40R, C-27, or the new replacements for those.

[RockJock]

I like the idea of state flavor talked about above.

I would go with Juicers having the forearm weapons as their main go to.

I see the Psi-Stalkers using melee weapons, both neuro and vibro styles. They have to get up close and draw blood to take PPE right?

It definitely fits for an older veteran to use some of the legacy weapons, especially when they make sense. For example, the C-27 has some advantages over the C-29 replacement. It has a longer range, and more shots per clip/canister. Similar for a Ranger to carry a C-10 over a C-12(I do like the sdc settling for a Ranger).

What is everyone's thoughts on SDC weapons? For example, I could see a handful of standardized SDC guns being common for CS troops to fight supernatural enemies (silver bullets) being commonplace.

[Warshield73]

I like the idea of state flavor talked about above.

I would go with Juicers having the forearm weapons as their main go to.

I see the Psi-Stalkers using melee weapons, both neuro and vibro styles. They have to get up close and draw blood to take PPE right?

It definitely fits for an older veteran to use some of the legacy weapons, especially when they make sense. For example, the C-27 has some advantages over the C-29 replacement. It has a longer range, and more shots per clip/canister. Similar for a Ranger to carry a C-10 over a C-12.

What is everyone's thoughts on SDC weapons? For example, I could see a handful of standardized SDC guns being common for CS troops to fight supernatural enemies (silver bullets) being commonplace.

I had always gotten the idea that the only state with any "flavor" was Free Quebec. Wasn't that a big part of the conflict between them and Chi-Town was them refusing to use standard gear like skelebots and maintaining non-standard units like GBs.

I had always run the CS as being pretty standardized and predictable, at least in the regular army, air corps and Marines. Special Forces and the Navy are the ones described as being a little more slap shot and free to use the non-standard gear and improvisation.

[Mlp7029]

Hi guys.

I was prepping some Open House stuff and left wondering about what CS soldier loadouts were the most iconic. This is for a "new style" soldier, but I know many artists and players prefer some of the old weapon designs, so those might fit better.

What weapons are most iconic in the hands of the following CS troops, do you think? I've noted my thoughts, but feel free to give any answer you want.

Grunt - CP-40 and a MP-40 or other slug thrower (alludes to the demonic invasion)
Psi-Stalker - neural mace if in ISS, front line vibrio blade and pump pistol
Ranger - The Ranger from Mercs I think with the vibrio blade best one I have seen, Triax pump rifle
Juicer - Forearm Weapon with the claws and particle beams. Jumping down from a Deathwing would be cool

[Shark_Force]

i would expect CS troops to have excellent access to conventional firearms whenever needed. in fact, iirc, the CS grunt OCC gives them a conventional firearm of choice, though it doesn't give any special ammo that i can recall.

i would also expect that unless an officer forces them to do otherwise, most of them leave their conventional firearms in the armory or somewhere in their quarters perhaps, securely locked away, unless they have special reason to believe they'll need it in the near future

(the exception of course being anyone assigned to deal with special threats on a regular basis, who will also have special ammunition).

being grunts, i'd expect most of them to choose or be assigned the biggest gun they could reasonably use, which is ironically *why* they leave it behind; hauling around a 6 pound assault rifle (never mind a squad machine gun) and a few extra pounds of magazines and ammo that "they'll never need anyways" (because they have a laser rifle that can chew through tank armour) is not going to sound appealing

naturally, anyone who is more likely to be assigned lighter weapons (i would presume most officers get pistols as standard issue, for example) is equally more likely to carry those weapons.

[RockJock]

See, I was thinking something like a standard 9mm, (92r, Glock, whatever), or MP-10 carried as a sidearm for enemies that either don't rate a MDC laser blast, or are vulnerable to silver.

[Jefffar]

But it's not a standard issue sidearm for the CS.

Unless the individual is from a special unit that can pick its own weapons or has purchased his own the sidearm options are the CS laser pistols or a Pump Pistol.

[Killer Cyborg]

See, I was thinking something like a standard 9mm, (92r, Glock, whatever), or MP-10 carried as a sidearm for enemies that either don't rate a MDC laser blast, or are vulnerable to silver.

I think that Palladium missed the boat with that kind of CS sidearm, so I wrote some up.


viewtopic.php?p=2560614#p2560614

[eliakon]

But it's not a standard issue sidearm for the CS.

Unless the individual is from a special unit that can pick its own weapons or has purchased his own the sidearm options are the CS laser pistols or a Pump Pistol.

Why do people assume that the only weapons the CS has are
1) MD weapons
2) the ones explicitly listed in the books?
Especially since
3) the CS teaches their soldiers WPs like Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun and others (since they are all taught one WP and it is not restricted in any way then it means that they can pick any WP in the RUE book at a bare minimum)
4) the CS issues out an "additional non-energy weapon of choice" to every solider

For example, just because first aid kits are listed in "common gear" and not "CS gear" should we assume that the CS doesn't have them?
ESPECIALLY since they are explicitly said to use Northern Gun gear (who explicitly makes a wide variety of guns)

Now I guess it is possible that the CS is the only group on the planet that doesn't manufacture regular fire arms...
...but I find that to be so unlikely as to be absurd.
I find it more likely that they simply make one of the generically stated out SDC weapons that are found in the books and not assigned any specific manufacturer... since SDC weapons are not smexy and thus do not get write-ups unless they have something special about them.

The CS likely does not (or at least did not) make the more unusual weapons or ammunition types, but a generic 9mm pistol? That's not hard to imagine at all, considering that they were in the RMB book in the same sections where other gear that we know IS issued out or of CS origin is found...

[Mack]

The good old C-12 provides a SDC capability.

[Shark_Force]

But it's not a standard issue sidearm for the CS.

Unless the individual is from a special unit that can pick its own weapons or has purchased his own the sidearm options are the CS laser pistols or a Pump Pistol.

Why do people assume that the only weapons the CS has are
1) MD weapons
2) the ones explicitly listed in the books?
Especially since
3) the CS teaches their soldiers WPs like Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun and others (since they are all taught one WP and it is not restricted in any way then it means that they can pick any WP in the RUE book at a bare minimum)
4) the CS issues out an "additional non-energy weapon of choice" to every solider

For example, just because first aid kits are listed in "common gear" and not "CS gear" should we assume that the CS doesn't have them?
ESPECIALLY since they are explicitly said to use Northern Gun gear (who explicitly makes a wide variety of guns)

Now I guess it is possible that the CS is the only group on the planet that doesn't manufacture regular fire arms...
...but I find that to be so unlikely as to be absurd.
I find it more likely that they simply make one of the generically stated out SDC weapons that are found in the books and not assigned any specific manufacturer... since SDC weapons are not smexy and thus do not get write-ups unless they have something special about them.

The CS likely does not (or at least did not) make the more unusual weapons or ammunition types, but a generic 9mm pistol? That's not hard to imagine at all, considering that they were in the RMB book in the same sections where other gear that we know IS issued out or of CS origin is found...

CS grunt standard equipment includes "additional non-energy weapon of choice" (though no ammo is mentioned, i would presume at least one clip of conventional ammo).

same with SAMAS pilot, military specialist, technical officer, and CS psi-stalker (they get the same gear as grunts). oddly enough, the dog boy does not, though it is available upon assignment.

like i said, though, i figure most grunts get issued an assault rifle, but don't normally carry it with them, because it's a bunch of added weight that they likely use infrequently at best. they're the best damage and range you can get in a conventional firearm, more accurate (pistols match them at even levels only, but lack greatly in other areas), and can handle a large magazine capacity. now, officers and specialists, you might see them get issued sidearms instead (especially psi-stalkers, who specifically don't want to keep their distance), but i'd expect the great majority of issued firearms to be assault rifles... and are not generally carried except in situations where the soldier specifically expects to need one, or their commanding officer has a stick up their butt

so yeah, they totally have them. somewhere. probably in storage. they've already got an energy rifle and pistol, either of which works on danged near everything. as noted, even energy rifles can have SDC capabilities.

if they're going on a vampire hunt? sure, the CS will issue them half a dozen clips each of wood or silver bullets, and probably a silver plated dagger, and a few wooden stakes too, and they'll carry their assault rifles (and probably leave their energy rifles behind... they'll bring their energy pistol sidearm though).

[Blue_Lion]

But it's not a standard issue sidearm for the CS.

Unless the individual is from a special unit that can pick its own weapons or has purchased his own the sidearm options are the CS laser pistols or a Pump Pistol.

Why do people assume that the only weapons the CS has are
1) MD weapons
2) the ones explicitly listed in the books?
Especially since
3) the CS teaches their soldiers WPs like Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun and others (since they are all taught one WP and it is not restricted in any way then it means that they can pick any WP in the RUE book at a bare minimum)
4) the CS issues out an "additional non-energy weapon of choice" to every solider

For example, just because first aid kits are listed in "common gear" and not "CS gear" should we assume that the CS doesn't have them?
ESPECIALLY since they are explicitly said to use Northern Gun gear (who explicitly makes a wide variety of guns)

Now I guess it is possible that the CS is the only group on the planet that doesn't manufacture regular fire arms...
...but I find that to be so unlikely as to be absurd.
I find it more likely that they simply make one of the generically stated out SDC weapons that are found in the books and not assigned any specific manufacturer... since SDC weapons are not smexy and thus do not get write-ups unless they have something special about them.

The CS likely does not (or at least did not) make the more unusual weapons or ammunition types, but a generic 9mm pistol? That's not hard to imagine at all, considering that they were in the RMB book in the same sections where other gear that we know IS issued out or of CS origin is found...

CS grunt standard equipment includes "additional non-energy weapon of choice" (though no ammo is mentioned, i would presume at least one clip of conventional ammo).

same with SAMAS pilot, military specialist, technical officer, and CS psi-stalker (they get the same gear as grunts). oddly enough, the dog boy does not, though it is available upon assignment.

like i said, though, i figure most grunts get issued an assault rifle, but don't normally carry it with them, because it's a bunch of added weight that they likely use infrequently at best. they're the best damage and range you can get in a conventional firearm, more accurate (pistols match them at even levels only, but lack greatly in other areas), and can handle a large magazine capacity. now, officers and specialists, you might see them get issued sidearms instead (especially psi-stalkers, who specifically don't want to keep their distance), but i'd expect the great majority of issued firearms to be assault rifles... and are not generally carried except in situations where the soldier specifically expects to need one, or their commanding officer has a stick up their butt

so yeah, they totally have them. somewhere. probably in storage. they've already got an energy rifle and pistol, either of which works on danged near everything. as noted, even energy rifles can have SDC capabilities.

if they're going on a vampire hunt? sure, the CS will issue them half a dozen clips each of wood or silver bullets, and probably a silver plated dagger, and a few wooden stakes too, and they'll carry their assault rifles (and probably leave their energy rifles behind... they'll bring their energy pistol sidearm though).

I generally assume most would be issued a conventional side are or shot gun. Shot guns have uses besides killing depending on ammo stick and shot or bean bags to capture a target alive, rounds to shoot off hinges, rounds with reduce chance to go threw walls and what not(the special ammo is why US infantry carry them in addition to assault rifles in combat). Something either light a side arm or has a tactical use(shot gun) assault rifle would be to bulky with limited intent of use to warrant a grunt slogging it every where he goes and it it is not something the expect to carry with them why issue the weapon. (ammo could be covered by the other gear clause ei they are issued ammo for their mission.)

[glitterboy2098]

pretty sure most of them carry pump-pistols now.

[eliakon]

But it's not a standard issue sidearm for the CS.

Unless the individual is from a special unit that can pick its own weapons or has purchased his own the sidearm options are the CS laser pistols or a Pump Pistol.

Why do people assume that the only weapons the CS has are
1) MD weapons
2) the ones explicitly listed in the books?
Especially since
3) the CS teaches their soldiers WPs like Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun and others (since they are all taught one WP and it is not restricted in any way then it means that they can pick any WP in the RUE book at a bare minimum)
4) the CS issues out an "additional non-energy weapon of choice" to every solider

For example, just because first aid kits are listed in "common gear" and not "CS gear" should we assume that the CS doesn't have them?
ESPECIALLY since they are explicitly said to use Northern Gun gear (who explicitly makes a wide variety of guns)

Now I guess it is possible that the CS is the only group on the planet that doesn't manufacture regular fire arms...
...but I find that to be so unlikely as to be absurd.
I find it more likely that they simply make one of the generically stated out SDC weapons that are found in the books and not assigned any specific manufacturer... since SDC weapons are not smexy and thus do not get write-ups unless they have something special about them.

The CS likely does not (or at least did not) make the more unusual weapons or ammunition types, but a generic 9mm pistol? That's not hard to imagine at all, considering that they were in the RMB book in the same sections where other gear that we know IS issued out or of CS origin is found...

CS grunt standard equipment includes "additional non-energy weapon of choice" (though no ammo is mentioned, i would presume at least one clip of conventional ammo).

same with SAMAS pilot, military specialist, technical officer, and CS psi-stalker (they get the same gear as grunts). oddly enough, the dog boy does not, though it is available upon assignment.

like i said, though, i figure most grunts get issued an assault rifle, but don't normally carry it with them, because it's a bunch of added weight that they likely use infrequently at best. they're the best damage and range you can get in a conventional firearm, more accurate (pistols match them at even levels only, but lack greatly in other areas), and can handle a large magazine capacity. now, officers and specialists, you might see them get issued sidearms instead (especially psi-stalkers, who specifically don't want to keep their distance), but i'd expect the great majority of issued firearms to be assault rifles... and are not generally carried except in situations where the soldier specifically expects to need one, or their commanding officer has a stick up their butt

so yeah, they totally have them. somewhere. probably in storage. they've already got an energy rifle and pistol, either of which works on danged near everything. as noted, even energy rifles can have SDC capabilities.

if they're going on a vampire hunt? sure, the CS will issue them half a dozen clips each of wood or silver bullets, and probably a silver plated dagger, and a few wooden stakes too, and they'll carry their assault rifles (and probably leave their energy rifles behind... they'll bring their energy pistol sidearm though).

I generally assume most would be issued a conventional side are or shot gun. Shot guns have uses besides killing depending on ammo stick and shot or bean bags to capture a target alive, rounds to shoot off hinges, rounds with reduce chance to go threw walls and what not(the special ammo is why US infantry carry them in addition to assault rifles in combat). Something either light a side arm or has a tactical use(shot gun) assault rifle would be to bulky with limited intent of use to warrant a grunt slogging it every where he goes and it it is not something the expect to carry with them why issue the weapon. (ammo could be covered by the other gear clause ei they are issued ammo for their mission.)

I would assume that "issue" means just like it did for me in the Army...
...I got issued a lot of stuff that then spent a lot of time locked up in the Arms Room or behind double lock and key in my shop truck.
When you go out on an actual mission you will draw the weapon(s) from the Arms Room that you need for that mission. If your basic issue wont cover it, then you will be signing for something else on a temporary basis (note that temporary can sometimes mean "the rest of your time in the military")

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

But it's not a standard issue sidearm for the CS.

Unless the individual is from a special unit that can pick its own weapons or has purchased his own the sidearm options are the CS laser pistols or a Pump Pistol.

Why do people assume that the only weapons the CS has are
1) MD weapons
2) the ones explicitly listed in the books?
Especially since
3) the CS teaches their soldiers WPs like Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun and others (since they are all taught one WP and it is not restricted in any way then it means that they can pick any WP in the RUE book at a bare minimum)
4) the CS issues out an "additional non-energy weapon of choice" to every solider

For example, just because first aid kits are listed in "common gear" and not "CS gear" should we assume that the CS doesn't have them?
ESPECIALLY since they are explicitly said to use Northern Gun gear (who explicitly makes a wide variety of guns)

Now I guess it is possible that the CS is the only group on the planet that doesn't manufacture regular fire arms...
...but I find that to be so unlikely as to be absurd.
I find it more likely that they simply make one of the generically stated out SDC weapons that are found in the books and not assigned any specific manufacturer... since SDC weapons are not smexy and thus do not get write-ups unless they have something special about them.

The CS likely does not (or at least did not) make the more unusual weapons or ammunition types, but a generic 9mm pistol? That's not hard to imagine at all, considering that they were in the RMB book in the same sections where other gear that we know IS issued out or of CS origin is found...

CS grunt standard equipment includes "additional non-energy weapon of choice" (though no ammo is mentioned, i would presume at least one clip of conventional ammo).

same with SAMAS pilot, military specialist, technical officer, and CS psi-stalker (they get the same gear as grunts). oddly enough, the dog boy does not, though it is available upon assignment.

like i said, though, i figure most grunts get issued an assault rifle, but don't normally carry it with them, because it's a bunch of added weight that they likely use infrequently at best. they're the best damage and range you can get in a conventional firearm, more accurate (pistols match them at even levels only, but lack greatly in other areas), and can handle a large magazine capacity. now, officers and specialists, you might see them get issued sidearms instead (especially psi-stalkers, who specifically don't want to keep their distance), but i'd expect the great majority of issued firearms to be assault rifles... and are not generally carried except in situations where the soldier specifically expects to need one, or their commanding officer has a stick up their butt

so yeah, they totally have them. somewhere. probably in storage. they've already got an energy rifle and pistol, either of which works on danged near everything. as noted, even energy rifles can have SDC capabilities.

if they're going on a vampire hunt? sure, the CS will issue them half a dozen clips each of wood or silver bullets, and probably a silver plated dagger, and a few wooden stakes too, and they'll carry their assault rifles (and probably leave their energy rifles behind... they'll bring their energy pistol sidearm though).

"An additional non-energy weapon of choice" is almost assuredly going to be something like, oh, i dunno... A pump pistol (for dealing with energy-immune enemies) or...

A Vibro Blade. Or perhaps a Neural Mace.

You know, so they aren't helpless if they get cornered or run out of ammo. Yeah, the CS doesn't issue Vibro Blades as standard. Figure that out.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

The good old C-12 provides a SDC capability.

as does the CP-40, if im not mistaken.

[RockJock]

Love the info in your linked post KC.

I was going on the basis that an SDC pistol is cheap, and has a fair share of uses. I see it as a fairly common sidearm, or extra weapon. Just my two cents.

The versatility of a shotgun makes sense to me as a common add on to assault rifles.

Does the pump pistol have book listed SDC rounds anywhere? It makes sense for them to be interchangeable with SDC shotgun style rounds, but I don't remember it actually being spelled out that way. For what it is worth, War Campaign says it is common with ISS, but not that common in the regular military(Commandos, SF, and the occasional field officer, much less with grunts).

[Killer Cyborg]

Love the info in your linked post KC.

Thanks!!

I was going on the basis that an SDC pistol is cheap, and has a fair share of uses. I see it as a fairly common sidearm, or extra weapon. Just my two cents.

Yup.

The versatility of a shotgun makes sense to me as a common add on to assault rifles.

Definitely.

Does the pump pistol have book listed SDC rounds anywhere?

Not that I know of, but yeah, it'd make sense for there to be some.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Just to note, according to Heroes of Humanity, page 64, a sawed off or military style shotgun are generally permitted as secondary weapons. Same section also indicates that silver plated bullets, swords and knives are well stocked.

Also in the same book, the Death Knight power armor lists a 10mm pistol, the CA-115, used as a sidearm. It doesn't say it's exclusive to the Death Knight...

[Dustin Fireblade]

Hi guys.

I was prepping some Open House stuff and left wondering about what CS soldier loadouts were the most iconic. This is for a "new style" soldier, but I know many artists and players prefer some of the old weapon designs, so those might fit better.

What weapons are most iconic in the hands of the following CS troops, do you think? I've noted my thoughts, but feel free to give any answer you want.

Grunt - Fire Breather? Or something new style?
Psi-Stalker - neural mace is the no brainier here, right?
Ranger - a sidearm? Maybe more likely to carry an old style than the Grunt.
Juicer - Forearm claws? Heavy weapon?

If this is a Minion War campaign...
Grunt - Has the newest gear from CWC. An older veteran might still carry a C-12 or C-14, but mostly likely switched to the new armor.
Psi-Stalker - neural mace for an ISS role, more like a grunt if assigned to the Regular Army.
Ranger - lighter armor for stealth, C-10 rifle.
Juicer - Forearm weapon systems and a heavy weapon like the C-29. Interestingly the Heroes of Humanity book says they typically get the old C-18 laser pistol

[Blue_Lion]

But it's not a standard issue sidearm for the CS.

Unless the individual is from a special unit that can pick its own weapons or has purchased his own the sidearm options are the CS laser pistols or a Pump Pistol.

Why do people assume that the only weapons the CS has are
1) MD weapons
2) the ones explicitly listed in the books?
Especially since
3) the CS teaches their soldiers WPs like Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun and others (since they are all taught one WP and it is not restricted in any way then it means that they can pick any WP in the RUE book at a bare minimum)
4) the CS issues out an "additional non-energy weapon of choice" to every solider

For example, just because first aid kits are listed in "common gear" and not "CS gear" should we assume that the CS doesn't have them?
ESPECIALLY since they are explicitly said to use Northern Gun gear (who explicitly makes a wide variety of guns)

Now I guess it is possible that the CS is the only group on the planet that doesn't manufacture regular fire arms...
...but I find that to be so unlikely as to be absurd.
I find it more likely that they simply make one of the generically stated out SDC weapons that are found in the books and not assigned any specific manufacturer... since SDC weapons are not smexy and thus do not get write-ups unless they have something special about them.

The CS likely does not (or at least did not) make the more unusual weapons or ammunition types, but a generic 9mm pistol? That's not hard to imagine at all, considering that they were in the RMB book in the same sections where other gear that we know IS issued out or of CS origin is found...

CS grunt standard equipment includes "additional non-energy weapon of choice" (though no ammo is mentioned, i would presume at least one clip of conventional ammo).

same with SAMAS pilot, military specialist, technical officer, and CS psi-stalker (they get the same gear as grunts). oddly enough, the dog boy does not, though it is available upon assignment.

like i said, though, i figure most grunts get issued an assault rifle, but don't normally carry it with them, because it's a bunch of added weight that they likely use infrequently at best. they're the best damage and range you can get in a conventional firearm, more accurate (pistols match them at even levels only, but lack greatly in other areas), and can handle a large magazine capacity. now, officers and specialists, you might see them get issued sidearms instead (especially psi-stalkers, who specifically don't want to keep their distance), but i'd expect the great majority of issued firearms to be assault rifles... and are not generally carried except in situations where the soldier specifically expects to need one, or their commanding officer has a stick up their butt

so yeah, they totally have them. somewhere. probably in storage. they've already got an energy rifle and pistol, either of which works on danged near everything. as noted, even energy rifles can have SDC capabilities.

if they're going on a vampire hunt? sure, the CS will issue them half a dozen clips each of wood or silver bullets, and probably a silver plated dagger, and a few wooden stakes too, and they'll carry their assault rifles (and probably leave their energy rifles behind... they'll bring their energy pistol sidearm though).

I generally assume most would be issued a conventional side are or shot gun. Shot guns have uses besides killing depending on ammo stick and shot or bean bags to capture a target alive, rounds to shoot off hinges, rounds with reduce chance to go threw walls and what not(the special ammo is why US infantry carry them in addition to assault rifles in combat). Something either light a side arm or has a tactical use(shot gun) assault rifle would be to bulky with limited intent of use to warrant a grunt slogging it every where he goes and it it is not something the expect to carry with them why issue the weapon. (ammo could be covered by the other gear clause ei they are issued ammo for their mission.)

I would assume that "issue" means just like it did for me in the Army...
...I got issued a lot of stuff that then spent a lot of time locked up in the Arms Room or behind double lock and key in my shop truck.
When you go out on an actual mission you will draw the weapon(s) from the Arms Room that you need for that mission. If your basic issue wont cover it, then you will be signing for something else on a temporary basis (note that temporary can sometimes mean "the rest of your time in the military")

I would say check your facts, while it is in the arms room it may be assigned to you but it is not issued to you. Issue is when you draw it from the arms room.

Issued is when the military puts it in your possession, assigned to you means it may be in your name but not necessary in your possession.

Nice try but you need to make sure the term is used correctly. The army only calls something issued when it is put in your possession. That was true in the 90s and is still true now.

[eliakon]

Why do people assume that the only weapons the CS has are
1) MD weapons
2) the ones explicitly listed in the books?
Especially since
3) the CS teaches their soldiers WPs like Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun and others (since they are all taught one WP and it is not restricted in any way then it means that they can pick any WP in the RUE book at a bare minimum)
4) the CS issues out an "additional non-energy weapon of choice" to every solider

For example, just because first aid kits are listed in "common gear" and not "CS gear" should we assume that the CS doesn't have them?
ESPECIALLY since they are explicitly said to use Northern Gun gear (who explicitly makes a wide variety of guns)

Now I guess it is possible that the CS is the only group on the planet that doesn't manufacture regular fire arms...
...but I find that to be so unlikely as to be absurd.
I find it more likely that they simply make one of the generically stated out SDC weapons that are found in the books and not assigned any specific manufacturer... since SDC weapons are not smexy and thus do not get write-ups unless they have something special about them.

The CS likely does not (or at least did not) make the more unusual weapons or ammunition types, but a generic 9mm pistol? That's not hard to imagine at all, considering that they were in the RMB book in the same sections where other gear that we know IS issued out or of CS origin is found...

CS grunt standard equipment includes "additional non-energy weapon of choice" (though no ammo is mentioned, i would presume at least one clip of conventional ammo).

same with SAMAS pilot, military specialist, technical officer, and CS psi-stalker (they get the same gear as grunts). oddly enough, the dog boy does not, though it is available upon assignment.

like i said, though, i figure most grunts get issued an assault rifle, but don't normally carry it with them, because it's a bunch of added weight that they likely use infrequently at best. they're the best damage and range you can get in a conventional firearm, more accurate (pistols match them at even levels only, but lack greatly in other areas), and can handle a large magazine capacity. now, officers and specialists, you might see them get issued sidearms instead (especially psi-stalkers, who specifically don't want to keep their distance), but i'd expect the great majority of issued firearms to be assault rifles... and are not generally carried except in situations where the soldier specifically expects to need one, or their commanding officer has a stick up their butt

so yeah, they totally have them. somewhere. probably in storage. they've already got an energy rifle and pistol, either of which works on danged near everything. as noted, even energy rifles can have SDC capabilities.

if they're going on a vampire hunt? sure, the CS will issue them half a dozen clips each of wood or silver bullets, and probably a silver plated dagger, and a few wooden stakes too, and they'll carry their assault rifles (and probably leave their energy rifles behind... they'll bring their energy pistol sidearm though).

I generally assume most would be issued a conventional side are or shot gun. Shot guns have uses besides killing depending on ammo stick and shot or bean bags to capture a target alive, rounds to shoot off hinges, rounds with reduce chance to go threw walls and what not(the special ammo is why US infantry carry them in addition to assault rifles in combat). Something either light a side arm or has a tactical use(shot gun) assault rifle would be to bulky with limited intent of use to warrant a grunt slogging it every where he goes and it it is not something the expect to carry with them why issue the weapon. (ammo could be covered by the other gear clause ei they are issued ammo for their mission.)

I would assume that "issue" means just like it did for me in the Army...
...I got issued a lot of stuff that then spent a lot of time locked up in the Arms Room or behind double lock and key in my shop truck.
When you go out on an actual mission you will draw the weapon(s) from the Arms Room that you need for that mission. If your basic issue wont cover it, then you will be signing for something else on a temporary basis (note that temporary can sometimes mean "the rest of your time in the military")

I would say check your facts, while it is in the arms room it may be assigned to you but it is not issued to you. Issue is when you draw it from the arms room.

Issued is when the military puts it in your possession, assigned to you means it may be in your name but not necessary in your possession.

Nice try but you need to make sure the term is used correctly. The army only calls something issued when it is put in your possession. That was true in the 90s and is still true now.

Anything that I had signed for was "issued" to me
That included the both of my trucks, my trailer, the generator on said trailer, the tools in said truck, and yes, even the weapons in the arms room.
Even if I didn't have them in my possession they were still listed as being issued to me and I was singing custodian of said item.
That is why when it went into the arms room I simply signed it in and out instead of signing a 2062 sub-hand receipt from a controlling HRH each time.
I know this because every time I had to do my accountabilities for everything on my personal HR (which was monthly since I had controlled and sensitive equipment under my control in my shop) my M-4, M-203, and PVS-4 showed up on the list with all the other items and I had to go get them out of the arms room and bring them over to the motor pool to lay out with all the other stuff for Chief to visually see and check off on.
So yeah, I would say that if I had to sign for it when I arrived at the unit, it then stayed on my master hand receipt until I left the unit...
...that it would be something that was "issued" to me. Indeed I would be hard pressed to think of how one could define something in any other way.

[Blue_Lion]

No signed for means you are responsible for it. That does not always mean issue. You are showing a lack of understanding of the army terms issue and signed for. People in command often sign for things that are not issued to them.
(Also army standard you only sighn for your weapon when you draw it once you turn it in it goes back to being signed by whoever is signed for the arms room. So if you are signed for it and it is in the arms room your unit was out of lines with army policy and regulations.)
I was signed for the whole barriks but the building was not issued to me. The building was never mine I was just responsible for it. Same with the humve trailer generator.

Your story of having to draw things out of a arms room for a lay out sounds out side of normal the only things I ever had to lay out where not in a arms room. Sensitive items in the arms room are typically inventoried in the arms room during monthly inventory.(I have assured with many arms room inventories.) So it sounds like your chief was doing things his way not the army way.

I have served in the roll of supply Sgt even though that is not my mos. My mos deals with lots of sensitive items have been in l Multiple units and never seen or heard of drawing items out of the arms room so they can be laid out to do monthly inventory. That would be a waste of time and resources not required by ARMY policy.

[eliakon]

No signed for means you are responsible for it. That does not always mean issue. You are showing a lack of understanding of the army terms issue and signed for. People in command often sign for things that are not issued to them.
(Also army standard you only sighn for your weapon when you draw it once you turn it in it goes back to being signed by whoever is signed for the arms room. So if you are signed for it and it is in the arms room your unit was out of lines with army policy and regulations.)
I was signed for the whole barriks but the building was not issued to me. The building was never mine I was just responsible for it. Same with the humve trailer generator.

Your story of having to draw things out of a arms room for a lay out sounds out side of normal the only things I ever had to lay out where not in a arms room. Sensitive items in the arms room are typically inventoried in the arms room during monthly inventory.(I have assured with many arms room inventories.) So it sounds like your chief was doing things his way not the army way.

I have served in the roll of supply Sgt even though that is not my mos. My mos deals with lots of sensitive items have been in l Multiple units and never seen or heard of drawing items out of the arms room so they can be laid out to do monthly inventory. That would be a waste of time and resources not required by ARMY policy.

I'm going to go out on a limb here...
...I am betting that the authors of Palladium have the same colloquial understanding of the terms as most everyone else does. Just a guess but if it requires splitting grammatical hairs to decide if something is "issued" or not based on who's hand receipt it is on and who has physical custody of it...
Then it probably is NOT the definition that the book is worried about since most game books are not written by grammar Nazis.
Now since everyone in my units used the word "issued" then I am going to sort of assume that that was the word they thought was applicable. *shrugs*
These two things to me suggest that yes the CS probably does "issue" people weapons (and armor, and radios, and power armor)...
...and then expects that they are locked up in the arms room when not out on patrol/in the field/on maneuvers. Since I highly doubt that a totalitarian society that is concerned about who has power is going to be fine with letting joe-private take his half million dollars of MD gear home to the family flat in the burbs, let alone fly the SAMAS home for the night. Logic sort of dictates that if you are 'issued' a pistol and also 'issued' a suit of power armor and that they are using the same word for both then the author is probably thinking that they will both be treated the same.
(Never mind the fact that the word "Issue" wasn't even USED the actual term used is "Standard Equipment" so the entire argument here is totally and utterly moot...)

As for the Army way/non-Army way.
Yeah, both of my units had anyone and everyone that had to do a personal inventory demonstrate that they had any and all issued/signed for/whatever items not just, for example, the computers or crypto but everything, weapons TA-50, toolboxes, tools the whole nine-yards. Can't say if I got two abnormal units or not... just saying what I dealt with in both units I was in.

[RockJock]

Dustin, the 10mm fits exactly what I'm talking about. When I get a chance I'll check the book.

[glitterboy2098]

Just to note, according to Heroes of Humanity, page 64, a sawed off or military style shotgun are generally permitted as secondary weapons. Same section also indicates that silver plated bullets, swords and knives are well stocked.

"i like to keep this handy" *racks the slide* "for close encounters"

Also in the same book, the Death Knight power armor lists a 10mm pistol, the CA-115, used as a sidearm. It doesn't say it's exclusive to the Death Knight...

probably a copy of the Wellington MP-10 Caseless pistol from Mercenaries (pg103)

[Shark_Force]

i guess i just don't anticipate grunts constantly lugging around a weapon that they almost never expect to use most of the time. simple fact is, the CS doesn't need a regular SDC pistol very often. the vampires are very busy pretending not to be a problem (and the CS actually has a few cities in between that act quite effectively as a buffer zone). were creatures aren't noted as a major problem. and while there are certainly opponents where they need to worry about energy weapons not working well, most of them still have MDC.

if we only had RMB still, and were generating most of our monsters from those tables, maybe. but for a regular grunt, i just don't see it coming up that often. as in, i doubt it even comes up once per year. they aren't even necessarily trained in the use of an SDC firearm of any variety.

[Killer Cyborg]

i guess i just don't anticipate grunts constantly lugging around a weapon that they almost never expect to use most of the time. simple fact is, the CS doesn't need a regular SDC pistol very often.

Oh, okay.
Mind listing the book and page number that describes the percentage of SDC encounters vs. MDC encounters of the average CS Grunt?

[Dustin Fireblade]

Also in the same book, the Death Knight power armor lists a 10mm pistol, the CA-115, used as a sidearm. It doesn't say it's exclusive to the Death Knight...

probably a copy of the Wellington MP-10 Caseless pistol from Mercenaries (pg103)

I believe the stats are sufficiently different. But still possible I suppose.

[Dustin Fireblade]

i guess i just don't anticipate grunts constantly lugging around a weapon that they almost never expect to use most of the time. simple fact is, the CS doesn't need a regular SDC pistol very often. the vampires are very busy pretending not to be a problem (and the CS actually has a few cities in between that act quite effectively as a buffer zone). .

Heroes of Humanity would disagree with you. See my quotes up thread.

[Shark_Force]

i guess i just don't anticipate grunts constantly lugging around a weapon that they almost never expect to use most of the time. simple fact is, the CS doesn't need a regular SDC pistol very often. the vampires are very busy pretending not to be a problem (and the CS actually has a few cities in between that act quite effectively as a buffer zone).

Heroes of Humanity would disagree with you. See my quotes up thread.

you mean the one where it says it's permitted, and says absolutely nothing about needing it consistently?

look, i totally agree the CS has SDC firearms of all kinds. probably lots of them. they probably even have conventional flamethrowers and stuff like that. they probably even have a stockpile of crossbows and longbows (which are better for sticking a large pointy stick into a supernatural creature like a vampire that needs a large pointy stick in them long term). when they're needed, they're probably not stingy with them either (and in fact, i suspect many of them are assigned to various soldiers, just not hauled around everywhere). but most of the time, they're just not needed. most enemies either have MDC, or don't have MDC but don't specifically need bulky projectile weapons that add an entire extra element to the supply chain when there are perfectly good laser rifles that are still in fairly common use that are perfectly capable of dealing damage to normal objects without using anti-tank weaponry, and the energy expenditure required for those attacks are miniscule to boot.

you run into vampires, or signs of vampires, in an area, and the local CS forces probably get a bit more picky about requiring a percentage of their troops to carry weapons that can hurt them, whether that be silver-plated knives, a sack full of pointy sticks, or a shotgun loaded with modified gunpowder-propelled wooden bolts. but we're not talking about stuff that the CS might have in special situations, we're looking at what is iconic, or in other words, things that you'd expect to be more typical for the CS. things you associate with them.

so just like the US military most likely has some non-standard weapons in their arsenal (i'm sure they've got all kinds of guns, stuff like FN-FALs and Uzis and whatnot), but the M-16 is iconic of the typical US soldier (as in, you would associate the M-16 with the US military), the CS most assuredly has shotguns and assault rifles and pistols that fire conventional bullets, but they're not iconic. if you met a CS soldier carrying a revolver, you wouldn't think "impossible, the CS doesn't have access to revolvers", but you would probably think "well that was a little unusual, i wonder what was special about this particular CS soldier that they carried a revolver instead of an energy pistol". as a player (not a PC) it might even lead you to think that this particular soldier was in some way significant, because they weren't just armed with the typical weapons of a CS soldier.

now sure, if you're talking about a patrol that's headed out past juarez, they're going to have some conventional guns for sure. maybe even every single grunt will be carrying some form of conventional firearm (and if not that, at least they'll have some appropriate melee weaponry), and i'd go so far as to say some portion of them might be carrying assault rifles as their primary weapon with some kind of energy pistol as a sidearm (the CS has a few energy pistols with 800 foot range, and for extreme range engagements they can issue ramjet rounds as needed, because i'm sure the CS has those as well), and they might be carrying a variety of specialized ammunition for those conventional firearms, because that's known vampire territory.

but it's not iconic. it isn't typical. it isn't the first thing that springs to your mind when you think about the CS.

[dreicunan]

i guess i just don't anticipate grunts constantly lugging around a weapon that they almost never expect to use most of the time. simple fact is, the CS doesn't need a regular SDC pistol very often. the vampires are very busy pretending not to be a problem (and the CS actually has a few cities in between that act quite effectively as a buffer zone).

Heroes of Humanity would disagree with you. See my quotes up thread.

you mean the one where it says it's permitted, and says absolutely nothing about needing it consistently?

look, i totally agree the CS has SDC firearms of all kinds. probably lots of them. they probably even have conventional flamethrowers and stuff like that. they probably even have a stockpile of crossbows and longbows (which are better for sticking a large pointy stick into a supernatural creature like a vampire that needs a large pointy stick in them long term). when they're needed, they're probably not stingy with them either (and in fact, i suspect many of them are assigned to various soldiers, just not hauled around everywhere). but most of the time, they're just not needed. most enemies either have MDC, or don't have MDC but don't specifically need bulky projectile weapons that add an entire extra element to the supply chain when there are perfectly good laser rifles that are still in fairly common use that are perfectly capable of dealing damage to normal objects without using anti-tank weaponry, and the energy expenditure required for those attacks are miniscule to boot.

you run into vampires, or signs of vampires, in an area, and the local CS forces probably get a bit more picky about requiring a percentage of their troops to carry weapons that can hurt them, whether that be silver-plated knives, a sack full of pointy sticks, or a shotgun loaded with modified gunpowder-propelled wooden bolts. but we're not talking about stuff that the CS might have in special situations, we're looking at what is iconic, or in other words, things that you'd expect to be more typical for the CS. things you associate with them.

so just like the US military most likely has some non-standard weapons in their arsenal (i'm sure they've got all kinds of guns, stuff like FN-FALs and Uzis and whatnot), but the M-16 is iconic of the typical US soldier (as in, you would associate the M-16 with the US military), the CS most assuredly has shotguns and assault rifles and pistols that fire conventional bullets, but they're not iconic. if you met a CS soldier carrying a revolver, you wouldn't think "impossible, the CS doesn't have access to revolvers", but you would probably think "well that was a little unusual, i wonder what was special about this particular CS soldier that they carried a revolver instead of an energy pistol". as a player (not a PC) it might even lead you to think that this particular soldier was in some way significant, because they weren't just armed with the typical weapons of a CS soldier.

now sure, if you're talking about a patrol that's headed out past juarez, they're going to have some conventional guns for sure. maybe even every single grunt will be carrying some form of conventional firearm (and if not that, at least they'll have some appropriate melee weaponry), and i'd go so far as to say some portion of them might be carrying assault rifles as their primary weapon with some kind of energy pistol as a sidearm (the CS has a few energy pistols with 800 foot range, and for extreme range engagements they can issue ramjet rounds as needed, because i'm sure the CS has those as well), and they might be carrying a variety of specialized ammunition for those conventional firearms, because that's known vampire territory.

but it's not iconic. it isn't typical. it isn't the first thing that springs to your mind when you think about the CS.

THE most iconic enemy of the CS is the Federation of Magic, a group that included (and still includes) plenty of people who can become immune to energy weapons. Considering the scar that the battles with that group left upon the psyche of the CS, and upon Chi-town above all, if the inclusion of a non-energy weapon is not iconic in the minds of many players, it is only because we haven't been paying close attention.

In a world where your primary weapons can be rendered laughably impotent by any random magic user who happens to have that spell (not to mention Mystic Knights) I'm thinking that the non-energy weapon is going to be a constant companion of most, if not all, members of the CS military.

[Jefffar]

The CS has a lot of non-energy infantry weapons in its roster.

Pump Pistols
Grenades and Grenade Launchers
Missile Launchers
Railguns.
And apparently a machine pistol I didn't know about before this discussion.

[Dustin Fireblade]

i guess i just don't anticipate grunts constantly lugging around a weapon that they almost never expect to use most of the time. simple fact is, the CS doesn't need a regular SDC pistol very often. the vampires are very busy pretending not to be a problem (and the CS actually has a few cities in between that act quite effectively as a buffer zone).

Heroes of Humanity would disagree with you. See my quotes up thread.

you mean the one where it says it's permitted, and says absolutely nothing about needing it consistently?

look, i totally agree the CS has SDC firearms of all kinds. probably lots of them. they probably even have conventional flamethrowers and stuff like that. they probably even have a stockpile of crossbows and longbows (which are better for sticking a large pointy stick into a supernatural creature like a vampire that needs a large pointy stick in them long term). when they're needed, they're probably not stingy with them either (and in fact, i suspect many of them are assigned to various soldiers, just not hauled around everywhere). but most of the time, they're just not needed. most enemies either have MDC, or don't have MDC but don't specifically need bulky projectile weapons that add an entire extra element to the supply chain when there are perfectly good laser rifles that are still in fairly common use that are perfectly capable of dealing damage to normal objects without using anti-tank weaponry, and the energy expenditure required for those attacks are miniscule to boot.

you run into vampires, or signs of vampires, in an area, and the local CS forces probably get a bit more picky about requiring a percentage of their troops to carry weapons that can hurt them, whether that be silver-plated knives, a sack full of pointy sticks, or a shotgun loaded with modified gunpowder-propelled wooden bolts. but we're not talking about stuff that the CS might have in special situations, we're looking at what is iconic, or in other words, things that you'd expect to be more typical for the CS. things you associate with them.

so just like the US military most likely has some non-standard weapons in their arsenal (i'm sure they've got all kinds of guns, stuff like FN-FALs and Uzis and whatnot), but the M-16 is iconic of the typical US soldier (as in, you would associate the M-16 with the US military), the CS most assuredly has shotguns and assault rifles and pistols that fire conventional bullets, but they're not iconic. if you met a CS soldier carrying a revolver, you wouldn't think "impossible, the CS doesn't have access to revolvers", but you would probably think "well that was a little unusual, i wonder what was special about this particular CS soldier that they carried a revolver instead of an energy pistol". as a player (not a PC) it might even lead you to think that this particular soldier was in some way significant, because they weren't just armed with the typical weapons of a CS soldier.

now sure, if you're talking about a patrol that's headed out past juarez, they're going to have some conventional guns for sure. maybe even every single grunt will be carrying some form of conventional firearm (and if not that, at least they'll have some appropriate melee weaponry), and i'd go so far as to say some portion of them might be carrying assault rifles as their primary weapon with some kind of energy pistol as a sidearm (the CS has a few energy pistols with 800 foot range, and for extreme range engagements they can issue ramjet rounds as needed, because i'm sure the CS has those as well), and they might be carrying a variety of specialized ammunition for those conventional firearms, because that's known vampire territory.

but it's not iconic. it isn't typical. it isn't the first thing that springs to your mind when you think about the CS.

Interesting thoughts. I'll chalk it up to a matter of different playing styles. I've been giving at the least an SDC pistol to every CS Joe ever encountered since Rifts came out.

[eliakon]

i guess i just don't anticipate grunts constantly lugging around a weapon that they almost never expect to use most of the time. simple fact is, the CS doesn't need a regular SDC pistol very often. the vampires are very busy pretending not to be a problem (and the CS actually has a few cities in between that act quite effectively as a buffer zone).

Heroes of Humanity would disagree with you. See my quotes up thread.

you mean the one where it says it's permitted, and says absolutely nothing about needing it consistently?

look, i totally agree the CS has SDC firearms of all kinds. probably lots of them. they probably even have conventional flamethrowers and stuff like that. they probably even have a stockpile of crossbows and longbows (which are better for sticking a large pointy stick into a supernatural creature like a vampire that needs a large pointy stick in them long term). when they're needed, they're probably not stingy with them either (and in fact, i suspect many of them are assigned to various soldiers, just not hauled around everywhere). but most of the time, they're just not needed. most enemies either have MDC, or don't have MDC but don't specifically need bulky projectile weapons that add an entire extra element to the supply chain when there are perfectly good laser rifles that are still in fairly common use that are perfectly capable of dealing damage to normal objects without using anti-tank weaponry, and the energy expenditure required for those attacks are miniscule to boot.

you run into vampires, or signs of vampires, in an area, and the local CS forces probably get a bit more picky about requiring a percentage of their troops to carry weapons that can hurt them, whether that be silver-plated knives, a sack full of pointy sticks, or a shotgun loaded with modified gunpowder-propelled wooden bolts. but we're not talking about stuff that the CS might have in special situations, we're looking at what is iconic, or in other words, things that you'd expect to be more typical for the CS. things you associate with them.

so just like the US military most likely has some non-standard weapons in their arsenal (i'm sure they've got all kinds of guns, stuff like FN-FALs and Uzis and whatnot), but the M-16 is iconic of the typical US soldier (as in, you would associate the M-16 with the US military), the CS most assuredly has shotguns and assault rifles and pistols that fire conventional bullets, but they're not iconic. if you met a CS soldier carrying a revolver, you wouldn't think "impossible, the CS doesn't have access to revolvers", but you would probably think "well that was a little unusual, i wonder what was special about this particular CS soldier that they carried a revolver instead of an energy pistol". as a player (not a PC) it might even lead you to think that this particular soldier was in some way significant, because they weren't just armed with the typical weapons of a CS soldier.

now sure, if you're talking about a patrol that's headed out past juarez, they're going to have some conventional guns for sure. maybe even every single grunt will be carrying some form of conventional firearm (and if not that, at least they'll have some appropriate melee weaponry), and i'd go so far as to say some portion of them might be carrying assault rifles as their primary weapon with some kind of energy pistol as a sidearm (the CS has a few energy pistols with 800 foot range, and for extreme range engagements they can issue ramjet rounds as needed, because i'm sure the CS has those as well), and they might be carrying a variety of specialized ammunition for those conventional firearms, because that's known vampire territory.

but it's not iconic. it isn't typical. it isn't the first thing that springs to your mind when you think about the CS.

THE most iconic enemy of the CS is the Federation of Magic, a group that included (and still includes) plenty of people who can become immune to energy weapons. Considering the scar that the battles with that group left upon the psyche of the CS, and upon Chi-town above all, if the inclusion of a non-energy weapon is not iconic in the minds of many players, it is only because we haven't been paying close attention.

In a world where your primary weapons can be rendered laughably impotent by any random magic user who happens to have that spell (not to mention Mystic Knights) I'm thinking that the non-energy weapon is going to be a constant companion of most, if not all, members of the CS military.

especially since the first thing anyone who says that their group farms the CS for loot says is "Well we use Impervious to Energy to become immune to their weapons"...
That sort of suggests that it is iconic...
...though I can see why a segment of the population wouldn't want the CS to have a counter for one of the most commonly used tricks used in ambushes against them for since the game was released.

[Shark_Force]

In a world where your primary weapons can be rendered laughably impotent by any random magic user who happens to have that spell (not to mention Mystic Knights) I'm thinking that the non-energy weapon is going to be a constant companion of most, if not all, members of the CS military.

sure. immunity to energy weapons is something that probably comes up reasonably often.

but since those magic users are typically going to be wearing some form of MDC armour, ranging from armour of ithan or a ley line force field to actual body armour, your 10mm pistol firing conventional slugs is basically just as useless as your energy rifle in that situation. which is probably why an assortment of things like frag grenades (and launchers on some of the weapons), mini-missiles, rail guns, pump guns, vibro-blades, and other non-energy weapons capable of dealing mega-damage are part of the CS arsenal, and most squads are likely to be collectively carrying at least some of those weapons, and not so much pistols that are just as useless against most energy-immune threats, and substantially more likely to be completely useless against most everything else they could expect to face.

now, because there are a handful of threats that having a 10mm pistol will help against where frag grenades and neuro-maces won't even tickle (provided you're carrying specialized ammo), the CS allowing troops to choose 10mm pistols and 12-gauge shotguns as backup weapons is reasonable. they most likely have an excellent selection of SDC weaponry, and plenty of specialized ammunition to go with it (because without the specialized ammunition, the weapons aren't going to be terribly useful). but again, unless the soldiers are specifically expecting one of the few varieties of enemies where they know those typically less useful weapons are going to be important, i would expect that most probably choose something else.

to put it another way: if you gave modern soldiers the option of carrying a knife, a hatchet, or a 5 lb sledgehammer, you might expect that most will not choose the hammer as it is by far the less versatile tool, more easily replaced (you can just use a rock, really), probably harder to use in a fight if it comes down to it, and probably heavier and bulkier... unless they know in advance that they're about to go into a situation where they're going to need to pound wooden posts into the ground, or something like that.

[Killer Cyborg]

to put it another way: if you gave modern soldiers the option of carrying a knife, a hatchet, or a 5 lb sledgehammer, you might expect that most will not choose the hammer as it is by far the less versatile tool, more easily replaced (you can just use a rock, really), probably harder to use in a fight if it comes down to it, and probably heavier and bulkier... unless they know in advance that they're about to go into a situation where they're going to need to pound wooden posts into the ground, or something like that.

On the other hand, if you gave modern soldiers the choice of carrying only anti-armor weapons capable of destroying a building, OR carrying that stuff plus a conventional firearm, which way do you think they'd go?

[eliakon]

In a world where your primary weapons can be rendered laughably impotent by any random magic user who happens to have that spell (not to mention Mystic Knights) I'm thinking that the non-energy weapon is going to be a constant companion of most, if not all, members of the CS military.

sure. immunity to energy weapons is something that probably comes up reasonably often.

but since those magic users are typically going to be wearing some form of MDC armour, ranging from armour of ithan or a ley line force field to actual body armour, your 10mm pistol firing conventional slugs is basically just as useless as your energy rifle in that situation. which is probably why an assortment of things like frag grenades (and launchers on some of the weapons), mini-missiles, rail guns, pump guns, vibro-blades, and other non-energy weapons capable of dealing mega-damage are part of the CS arsenal, and most squads are likely to be collectively carrying at least some of those weapons, and not so much pistols that are just as useless against most energy-immune threats, and substantially more likely to be completely useless against most everything else they could expect to face.

now, because there are a handful of threats that having a 10mm pistol will help against where frag grenades and neuro-maces won't even tickle (provided you're carrying specialized ammo), the CS allowing troops to choose 10mm pistols and 12-gauge shotguns as backup weapons is reasonable. they most likely have an excellent selection of SDC weaponry, and plenty of specialized ammunition to go with it (because without the specialized ammunition, the weapons aren't going to be terribly useful). but again, unless the soldiers are specifically expecting one of the few varieties of enemies where they know those typically less useful weapons are going to be important, i would expect that most probably choose something else.

to put it another way: if you gave modern soldiers the option of carrying a knife, a hatchet, or a 5 lb sledgehammer, you might expect that most will not choose the hammer as it is by far the less versatile tool, more easily replaced (you can just use a rock, really), probably harder to use in a fight if it comes down to it, and probably heavier and bulkier... unless they know in advance that they're about to go into a situation where they're going to need to pound wooden posts into the ground, or something like that.

No.
But we did carry anything and everything we thought we might possibly need including back up weapons.
Which is why I can't imagine professional soldiers saying "well, sure all of our weapons are useless against a huge swath of enemies... lets not bring the back up pistol just incase."
Its beyond absurd.
as for your "choice"?
a back up kinetic weapon isn't a 5lb sledgehammer vs a combat knife
Its like asking if they will say "Oh never mind I don't want to bother taking my pistol and/or knife along because I have my rifle and it will never jam"
Which happens never... and if it does the rest of the patrol will smack said person around and send them back to get the rest of their gear so that they don't put everyone else in jeopardy.

[TeeAychEeMarchHare]

I'd go with the hatchet unless I could have an actual axe.

But us grunts don't necessarily do what other people think would be the thing to do. Especially if by doing something else we can have a better, more effective weapon or tool.

[Shark_Force]

On the other hand, if you gave modern soldiers the choice of carrying only anti-armor weapons capable of destroying a building, OR carrying that stuff plus a conventional firearm, which way do you think they'd go?

conveniently, the CS has laser rifles that can do regular damage too. at better range, without requiring an additional element in the supply chain, and with vastly more efficiency in terms of shots per clip/magazine (and before the gun nuts get mad at me, an e-clip is by definition of the game a clip, i'm not referring to the magazine on the conventional rifle )

No.
But we did carry anything and everything we thought we might possibly need including back up weapons.
Which is why I can't imagine professional soldiers saying "well, sure all of our weapons are useless against a huge swath of enemies... lets not bring the back up pistol just incase."
Its beyond absurd.
as for your "choice"?
a back up kinetic weapon isn't a 5lb sledgehammer vs a combat knife
Its like asking if they will say "Oh never mind I don't want to bother taking my pistol and/or knife along because I have my rifle and it will never jam"
Which happens never... and if it does the rest of the patrol will smack said person around and send them back to get the rest of their gear so that they don't put everyone else in jeopardy.

a weapon is a tool, like any other. it is a tool specialized for killing things, but still a tool. it can be compared to other tools as well.

and i never argued that there would be no backup weapons, so put that strawman away. i said they wouldn't haul around highly specialized weapons that only work well on a very limited selection of uncommon targets (but only if you have specialized ammo) and doesn't work at all on the great majority of the enemies they face. especially when they can carry general purpose weapons that do everything except for working well on the very limited selection of uncommon targets, unless they specifically know they're likely to encounter those targets.

going into vampire territory? sure they'll bring along a conventional firearm. on a typical wilderness patrol? their main weapon will be the energy rifle they're all issued by default. their secondary weapon will be the energy pistol they're all issued by default, as well as grenades, a survival knife, and probably some mix of other non-energy weapons that they're also issued by default, most of which will likely be such things as mini-missile launchers, pump pistols and pump rifles, vibro-blades, neural maces, etc, but some few of which may be shotguns or conventional pistols or other things... but most of which will probably not be, because conventional firearms are just dead weight against most actual threats.

this isn't a question of them bringing along a backup weapon, which CS soldiers already have plenty of. this is like arguing that modern soldiers are going to see major value in bringing along a sling just in case they completely run out of ammunition and are forced to resort to slinging stones. certainly, the sling has some potential usefulness (it's super quiet, it's easy to replace ammo, it can potentially do indirect fire, it doesn't waste a rifle round if you need to hunt birds or squirrels for food, and probably some others), but most still aren't going to go out of their way to learn how to use it, and if it was an extra 4-5 pounds of weight rather than a few ounces, it would probably get left in storage somewhere most of the time unless someone was constantly forcing them to haul it around.

[guardiandashi]

I use as a silly example I had a special forces char (from original mercs book) that literally carried, the energy handgun, and rifle, 3 additional weapons of choice some grenades (4 I think)
and a suit of power armor, but when not in the power armor she had if I remember right
1 ng-E12A heavy plasma ejector with 4 long clips
1 MP-23A caseless SMG with 6 clips 2 loaded with standard rounds, 1 with depleted uranium rounds, 1 clip of wi-10 1 clip loaded with wi-e2 explosive rounds, and if it was a thing 1 loaded with silver rounds
1 NE-4 plasma cartridge pistol with 4 clips, (I also had at least 100 spare rounds when I could get them)
A katana (later became a rune katana)
1 NG-57 heavy ion blaster 4 clips
1 NG-LG6 laser rifle and grenade launcher 4 long clips 20 grenades for grenade launcher
I used credits to add a vibro knife, and a "normal" knife to the chars arsenal

so then the challenge became to figure out how the char carried all that stuff, even though weight wasn't really a problem because she was exceptionally strong (strong enough that standard cybernetic implants were over their strength cap so she had to get bionic replacements when she lost a leg from the hip, and the other from mid calf)

I always figured she carried (stowed) the plasma ejector over 1 shoulder, the rifle over the other, with the sword along her spine, the plasma cartridge pistol and ion blaster in holsters (like the classic gunfighter image) and the smg not entirely sure. then having ammo belts, and pouches all over the place, so ya the char had to be careful, or she rattled when she walked.

later on through the adventures the char ended up in all kinds of places and picked up MORE guns that she tried to carry at one point it was so bad that the char was packing enough weaponry, that the weapons themselves almost would have been considered armor.....

[Killer Cyborg]

On the other hand, if you gave modern soldiers the choice of carrying only anti-armor weapons capable of destroying a building, OR carrying that stuff plus a conventional firearm, which way do you think they'd go?

conveniently, the CS has laser rifles that can do regular damage too. at better range, without requiring an additional element in the supply chain, and with vastly more efficiency in terms of shots per clip/magazine (and before the gun nuts get mad at me, an e-clip is by definition of the game a clip, i'm not referring to the magazine on the conventional rifle )

They absolutely DO!
And yeah, the C-12 and CP-40 are awesome for that. I'd love to see more weapons like that.

However, they're also only two of the energy rifles that are commonly used.
If you're a CS Grunt who instead gets issued a CV-212, C-10, C-14, CP-50, C-29, C-27, or other such weapon, then you might well want an SDC weapon you can pull out to use against SDC enemies.

[dreicunan]

Silver weapons and ammunition are effective against a wide range of supernatural threats, not just vampires. While wooden stakes may not be a standard thing to lug around, a silver knife probably should be, and having at least a few slug throwers with silver rounds available is a smart move, as is having pump pistols. I know that Coalition War Campaign didn't take that into account (laser rifle, laser pistol, and survival knife), but it realky doesn't make sense.

If I were going to arm a military in any part of the Megaverse with a fair amount of magic energy, I'd be choosing loadouts that had half the people with a solid weapon rifle and energy side-arm, and the other half with an energy rifle and solid side-arm.