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Well, I thought I'd ask a useful question for once. The power of See Aura detects magic and/or psionic abilities. How does it do this? I would expect by the presence of large amounts of PPE or ISP.

If this is the case, could you fool See Aura by expending your ISP/PPE?

-Vek
"I know Transference is a way to beat it."

i do it by aura colours and stripes and dots and sparkles, depending on the alignment of the character.

In the PF2 Mb says "● The presence of Magic (no indication of what or power level)."

What it does not say is: detecting spell casting abilities.
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The only place I know of that actually describes what an aura looks like was is in a NB book. (or maybe rifter article.) It was talk about learning something off the net and being able to see auras and that there were people with darker auras. (supposedly NB)

Well, I am not asking how the aura appears. I want to know if you can fool it by expending your ISP or PPE before someone scans your aura.

-Vek
"Maybe my question wasn't all that useful."

As it says it senses the presence of magic but not its power level, and high or low base ppe I would say not.

Well, that makes me wonder how it works then. How does it differentiate between a regular Joe with 4 PPE and a spent Warlock down to 4 PPE? I guess it somehow gauges the total possible PPE/ISP, as opposed to the current level, and anything over 15 or so counts as magic ability? Or maybe it senses OCC abilities. What would happen if you scanned a wizard with no tongue?

-Vek
"I won't posit how the tongue was lost."

I guess channelling magic through your body leaves a mark noticeable to see aura, and as removing the tongue only stops the act of spellcasting he would still detect as a magic presence. He still knows his spells, and if he gets a restoration can continue channelling the energy.

Veknironth wrote:Well, I am not asking how the aura appears. I want to know if you can fool it by expending your ISP or PPE before someone scans your aura.

-Vek
"Maybe my question wasn't all that useful."

Yes, a mage char can expend their PPE and just look like a normal human. ..... if they do not have any magic items on him/her.

Psychic are in the bind that the viewer can already tell that they are a psychic. The char can only appear to be a minor psi.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Yes, a mage char can expend their PPE and just look like a normal human. ..... if they do not have any magic items on him/her.

I find this bit unlikely as
It shows base ppe, not current ppe. High ppe for a standard player race = caster, there might be the odd exception but its not normal canon.
It shows level to a point
It shows if something is a supernatural/aberration/alien/inhuman creature, so this rules out dragon in human form etc
Its show the presence of magic - This one is trickier but I think warlocks, priests and witches would ping due to their gifts. The fact that a wizard can cast spells makes them ping in my book, but it is an arguable point.

made a mistake... Goes back and strikes.

the char would have to use alter aura to lower what their base PPE/ISP to look lower and to hide their psi abilities.


Or maybe have a NB Artifact that masks the wearer's aura with another one.

I would say that an aura of someone with magic or psionics looks notably different in some standard way... magic auras are sparkly, psionic auras have a particular hard edge that you recognize if you see it, or something like that. However, these distinctions aren't refined enough to give you an indication of what kind of psionics or how powerful the magic.

An analogy would be that every aura looks like a room. If the room has a blue chair in it, you know that room belongs to a psychic. But that blue chair is going to be completely individualized, so it won't tell you anything about their individual abilities... just blue chair = psychic. Red Ottoman? Magic powers.

I thought the aura was supposed to be kinda like the amount of ectplasm that surrounds u - I guess that doesnt get effected by how much ISP u have.

To the question Id say no as IMHO its not how the power is supposed to be used (IMO).

What mark was giving was an analogy to get an idea across by framing it differently. Not a description.

It would of probably have been better to talk about the outside of a house. And how every individual looks differently like a multitude of different houses. With Psychic being able to see one color to mean psi abilities, another for active magic or that of a magic object. Maybe the size of the house (aura) reading the char's base mana. Or how well the house is kept up being representative of how healthy the char is. .......
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If a mage does not have any active magic going on, on himself, or have any magic items or charged TW magic items the only thing according to the RAW text, is a high PPE base.

If KS meant the ability to cast spells was seen then that is what should of been written into the text.
I do realize that others will subconsciously have overlays that add meaning to the words that are not there in the text.

It mostly likely has to do how it is spoken of to.
Mages do magic. verses Mages have magic.
And in the technical since Mages do/create magic.

The way I tend to describe an aura to players is that the size of the aura (how thick it appears) indicates the rough amount of PPE in the person... the average adult with little unspent PPE has a fairly thin one (about a cm thick in most cases)... while children and teens (with a fair bit more PPE) have a bit thicker one. Most Superhumans tend to have a bit more PPE than normal, so theirs tends to be a little thicker, but generally not as thick as a child or teen. Men of magic are brimming with PPE, so their auras tend to be quite thick, but even here it isn't precise (a inexperienced mage can have a large PPE base because of a lucky roll, while a very experienced wizard might have a much smaller one because of bad rolls... but in both cases they tend to have much more than the average person). In all the above cases, the aura tends to fluctuate around the edge... almost like flame or energy (which it is).

In the case of psychics, their auras tend to have a much more well defined edge to them... almost as if something is holding their "spiritual" energy within them. Unless the character also has a large PPE base (as Mystics who have both magic and psionic powers tend to possess), then the aura remains similar in depth to those who have lower PPE bases (like normal people). It is the hard edge of the aura that indicates the presence of psychic abilities.

Rough level of experience is determined by the color of the aura... with lower levels tending towards blue and violet while high level characters tend towards orange and red.

How bright the aura appears is an indication of the characters well being... with a pale aura indicating sickness to some degree and a bright aura indicating healthy.

The presence of a possessing entity causes the auras of both to overlay each other in distinct bands that blend together near their edges... the aura of the possessed being closest to the body while the aura of the possessor is on the outside.

Abnormalities that might indicate an individual is different than a normal human will be seen, but the variations are too many to be accurately identified... mutants look very similar to normal humans, though the viewer does get an odd sensation about it. The same is true if they see the aura of a supernatural being disguised as human.

I tend not to give players direct information but describe what their characters see and let them figure out what the different aspects of the auras mean. Of course, different powers one has can sometimes mask these general standards... the Mask ISP & Psionics will make the outer edge of one's aura less defined (suggesting they don't have such abilities) while the Alter Aura power can completely change one's aura's appearance and Mind Block renders the aura completely invisible to this power (can not be detected sensed... which can alert a knowledgeable psychic to something odd, but is something less experienced psychics tend to ignore/not notice).

It may not be by the book... but it gives a lot of flavor to the power making it something that players decide to take... especially as they try to figure out exactly what all the different features of the aura mean (unless the one being viewed has the means to alter their aura... and reason to do so, I do my best to keep things fairly consistent... though with the aberrations that indicate a person is something more than human and such... there is some leeway in the descriptions I can provide).

The Dark Elf wrote:I thought the aura was supposed to be kinda like the amount of ectplasm that surrounds u - I guess that doesnt get effected by how much ISP u have.

To the question Id say no as IMHO its not how the power is supposed to be used (IMO).

I used something similar in the Ectoplasm and Telekinetics article... but, rather, it was that ectoplasm was spun out of your aura.

I may be a minority here...
...but I don't think it CAN detect spell casting ability.
I think it can detect magic abilities though.
Thus if you have innate magical powers, or are a creature of magic or are a curse lycanthrope or something it will say "This being is magical"
Otherwise you need to guess based on the PPE amounts.

I base this on the fact that even though the CS has wide access to See Aura abilities and the like, they are not able to simply identify all the mages on sight. Same with all the other places that have rules against magic and then manage to have magic undergrounds. If you could just look at auras and know "these are the mages we are looking for" that would be impossible.


Just my two G.P. (debased Western Empire currency to boot)

eliakon wrote:I may be a minority here...
...but I don't think it CAN detect spell casting ability.
I think it can detect magic abilities though.
Thus if you have innate magical powers, or are a creature of magic or are a curse lycanthrope or something it will say "This being is magical"
Otherwise you need to guess based on the PPE amounts.

I base this on the fact that even though the CS has wide access to See Aura abilities and the like, they are not able to simply identify all the mages on sight. Same with all the other places that have rules against magic and then manage to have magic undergrounds. If you could just look at auras and know "these are the mages we are looking for" that would be impossible.


Just my two G.P. (debased Western Empire currency to boot)

Well you would be correct, as the power states it senses the presence of magic, not the ability to cast magic. So using it on some random person could indicate they may be a mage, but it could also indicate they're under the effect of a magical buff, or maybe carrying something with magical power in it, or magically cursed, and so on.

eliakon wrote:I may be a minority here...
...but I don't think it CAN detect spell casting ability.
I think it can detect magic abilities though.
Thus if you have innate magical powers, or are a creature of magic or are a curse lycanthrope or something it will say "This being is magical"
Otherwise you need to guess based on the PPE amounts.

I base this on the fact that even though the CS has wide access to See Aura abilities and the like, they are not able to simply identify all the mages on sight. Same with all the other places that have rules against magic and then manage to have magic undergrounds. If you could just look at auras and know "these are the mages we are looking for" that would be impossible.


Just my two G.P. (debased Western Empire currency to boot)

The only problem with that is that the CS should be able to pick out wizards with see aura just because of the wizards high base ppe, even priests have way more than normal.

kiralon wrote:

eliakon wrote:I may be a minority here...
...but I don't think it CAN detect spell casting ability.
I think it can detect magic abilities though.
Thus if you have innate magical powers, or are a creature of magic or are a curse lycanthrope or something it will say "This being is magical"
Otherwise you need to guess based on the PPE amounts.

I base this on the fact that even though the CS has wide access to See Aura abilities and the like, they are not able to simply identify all the mages on sight. Same with all the other places that have rules against magic and then manage to have magic undergrounds. If you could just look at auras and know "these are the mages we are looking for" that would be impossible.


Just my two G.P. (debased Western Empire currency to boot)

The only problem with that is that the CS should be able to pick out wizards with see aura just because of the wizards high base ppe, even priests have way more than normal.

That is true.
There are two parts to that
the first is that the canon description of See Aura explicitly says that seeing PPE is the power. Ergo seeing PPE is the power
Second is that I do not believe it shows base PPE, it shows current. Thus if your PPE is depleted to human norms (which is creeping up as the books keep adding to it so that more and more 'muggles' can use TW. It used to be more that 2 or 3 PPE was abnormal, now its quite normal to see people with 10 or 12 or more...)

eliakon wrote:

kiralon wrote:

eliakon wrote:I may be a minority here...
...but I don't think it CAN detect spell casting ability.
I think it can detect magic abilities though.
Thus if you have innate magical powers, or are a creature of magic or are a curse lycanthrope or something it will say "This being is magical"
Otherwise you need to guess based on the PPE amounts.

I base this on the fact that even though the CS has wide access to See Aura abilities and the like, they are not able to simply identify all the mages on sight. Same with all the other places that have rules against magic and then manage to have magic undergrounds. If you could just look at auras and know "these are the mages we are looking for" that would be impossible.


Just my two G.P. (debased Western Empire currency to boot)

The only problem with that is that the CS should be able to pick out wizards with see aura just because of the wizards high base ppe, even priests have way more than normal.

That is true.
There are two parts to that
the first is that the canon description of See Aura explicitly says that seeing PPE is the power. Ergo seeing PPE is the power
Second is that I do not believe it shows base PPE, it shows current. Thus if your PPE is depleted to human norms (which is creeping up as the books keep adding to it so that more and more 'muggles' can use TW. It used to be more that 2 or 3 PPE was abnormal, now its quite normal to see people with 10 or 12 or more...)

Both my Palladium second ed book and my rifts main book says the same thing. (my rifts book is an old one though so it could have been updated by now)

Seeing an aura will indicate the following:
• High or low base P.P.E.

Which is pretty straightforward, and as mindblock hides the amount of ppe, you can tell if someone is a psionicist by the fact you cant tell how much ppe someone has.

kiralon wrote:

eliakon wrote:

kiralon wrote:

eliakon wrote:I may be a minority here...
...but I don't think it CAN detect spell casting ability.
I think it can detect magic abilities though.
Thus if you have innate magical powers, or are a creature of magic or are a curse lycanthrope or something it will say "This being is magical"
Otherwise you need to guess based on the PPE amounts.

I base this on the fact that even though the CS has wide access to See Aura abilities and the like, they are not able to simply identify all the mages on sight. Same with all the other places that have rules against magic and then manage to have magic undergrounds. If you could just look at auras and know "these are the mages we are looking for" that would be impossible.


Just my two G.P. (debased Western Empire currency to boot)

The only problem with that is that the CS should be able to pick out wizards with see aura just because of the wizards high base ppe, even priests have way more than normal.

That is true.
There are two parts to that
the first is that the canon description of See Aura explicitly says that seeing PPE is the power. Ergo seeing PPE is the power
Second is that I do not believe it shows base PPE, it shows current. Thus if your PPE is depleted to human norms (which is creeping up as the books keep adding to it so that more and more 'muggles' can use TW. It used to be more that 2 or 3 PPE was abnormal, now its quite normal to see people with 10 or 12 or more...)

Both my Palladium second ed book and my rifts main book says the same thing. (my rifts book is an old one though so it could have been updated by now)

Seeing an aura will indicate the following:
• High or low base P.P.E.

Which is pretty straightforward, and as mindblock hides the amount of ppe, you can tell if someone is a psionicist by the fact you cant tell how much ppe someone has.

Hmmmm, so it does.
My bad. I think I am guilty of the "using a house rule for so long that I forgot it was not a house rule"
That said... yeah if the GM doesn't want mages to be instantly identified by the CS they will need to tweak things for their game.
Or just leave it as is and figure this is how the CS did their new purge in the HoH book.

The problem with using High or Low Base PPE to determine who is and isn't a Mage is very unreliable.

Children and Teenagers have much higher levels of PPE than adults... does this mean that all children and teens are mages? Of course not.

Not all mages have huge PPE bases... many do, but some have very little (mechanically due to a bad roll of the dice). The amount of PPE does not immediately prove that one is a spellcaster... just that one has a lot of energy that might be used for such.

Additionally... just because The Coalition States uses Psychics, it doesn't mean that ALL of them have this power or that the Coalition States actually trusts these psychics 100%. Nearly all Psychics are treated as second class citizens (with identification tattoos and chips to monitor ANYONE with Major or Master levels of Psychic ability... and even those with Minor Psychic powers are watched). Even the infamous Psi-Stalkers and Psi-Hounds (Dog Boys) that are commonly used to track down mystics (because of their much more refined ability to actually detect and track magic) are barely trusted by these Human Supremists that think that think that any variation of humanity that grants paranormal powers of ANY sort makes you less than human. This attitude was very present within the former Coalition State of Free Quebec... where Psychics were even less trusted than they were in other States. Simply put... the Coalition States may have Psychics, but that doesn't mean that they trust them... how can they when these Psychics have powers that are potentially as dangerous and as mysterious as the magic they fear and revile? Psychics may be able to identify individuals that should be watched... but until a more respected member of the Military has further proof that such "questionable" individuals actually have magical powers, they are not likely to take a Psychic's "word" for it... even if they are a Psi-Stalker or Psi-Hound.

Psychics are rare to begin with... and the chances of them having this ability are even rarer... and with the level of subjective conclusions such psychics make while "reading" an aura... well... let's just say that it really does leave a lot of room for error... too much room for them or this power to be completely trusted. It gives generalities... not specifics. Places like the Coalition may be a little lax on what evidence is admissable or what justifies probable cause, but even they are not foolish enough to take a Psychic's word as Gospel.

Razorwing wrote:The problem with using High or Low Base PPE to determine who is and isn't a Mage is very unreliable.

Children and Teenagers have much higher levels of PPE than adults... does this mean that all children and teens are mages? Of course not.

Yes they do, but still a lot lower than what a mage has (look through the books and see if you can find a wizard with less than 100ppe, I have never dm'd one either).
There is a big difference between 3d4x10+20 vs 5d6, but its easy to pick out children and teenagers from adults anyway so that wouldn't be an issue to begin with. I wouldn't say that a kids starting ppe was high, even if they did roll all 6's. Elves are a little different but max out like kids do, and yet again are easy to pick out for extra questioning.

From what I have read of the dog packs if any of them pointed out a wizard he would be shot/arrested first and they would ask questions later, and they can take see aura straight up. The same goes with a psi stalker, the may be classed as second rate citizens but i'm yet to read anything about the coalition not believing psi stalkers or dog packs, as the Coalition has been very salem/witch like with magic, and the doubts you bring up don't sound very coalition like, but happily i'm not a rifts expert, I leave that to someone else.


Also the rarity of psychics also came up not too long ago, I don't know about rifts but, to quote the main palladium book
In the Palladium World, psychic powers are comparatively common.
Even an average person may have some degree of psychic power
so psychics aren't even rare (1/4 the population).

Razorwing wrote:The problem with using High or Low Base PPE to determine who is and isn't a Mage is very unreliable.

Children and Teenagers have much higher levels of PPE than adults... does this mean that all children and teens are mages? Of course not.

Not all mages have huge PPE bases... many do, but some have very little (mechanically due to a bad roll of the dice). The amount of PPE does not immediately prove that one is a spellcaster... just that one has a lot of energy that might be used for such.

The issue here is what one sets as "high"
if we say 20 or 30 is high then this might work...
...but if we use the standard from the Dog-Boy that says that it can detect mages by there reserve of 80+ PPE then its going to not work.

Razorwing wrote:Additionally... just because The Coalition States uses Psychics, it doesn't mean that ALL of them have this power or that the Coalition States actually trusts these psychics 100%. Nearly all Psychics are treated as second class citizens (with identification tattoos and chips to monitor ANYONE with Major or Master levels of Psychic ability... and even those with Minor Psychic powers are watched). Even the infamous Psi-Stalkers and Psi-Hounds (Dog Boys) that are commonly used to track down mystics (because of their much more refined ability to actually detect and track magic) are barely trusted by these Human Supremists that think that think that any variation of humanity that grants paranormal powers of ANY sort makes you less than human. This attitude was very present within the former Coalition State of Free Quebec... where Psychics were even less trusted than they were in other States. Simply put... the Coalition States may have Psychics, but that doesn't mean that they trust them... how can they when these Psychics have powers that are potentially as dangerous and as mysterious as the magic they fear and revile? Psychics may be able to identify individuals that should be watched... but until a more respected member of the Military has further proof that such "questionable" individuals actually have magical powers, they are not likely to take a Psychic's "word" for it... even if they are a Psi-Stalker or Psi-Hound.

Quebec doesn't use psychics yes.
The rest of the CS though trusts psychics in several ways. After all, tracking and destroying the supernatural and mages is the entire reason that they have the Dog Boys and Psi-Stalkers in the first place...

Razorwing wrote:Psychics are rare to begin with... and the chances of them having this ability are even rarer... and with the level of subjective conclusions such psychics make while "reading" an aura... well... let's just say that it really does leave a lot of room for error... too much room for them or this power to be completely trusted. It gives generalities... not specifics. Places like the Coalition may be a little lax on what evidence is admissable or what justifies probable cause, but even they are not foolish enough to take a Psychic's word as Gospel.

25%+ of the human population should have psionic powers...
That is a pretty good chunk right there. The number with this particular ability will be much smaller yes...
...but it isn't zero or even close to it.
And the power is pretty specific sadly.
It can be houseruled to make it more vague (which I did and forgot was a house rule not canon) but its pretty clear that the official RAW one detects several traits and its very black and white on those traits.
Moreover other than a few isolated places psychics are not actively distrusted outright either.
The only wiggle room will be what the GM decides is going to be the threshold for "High" and "Low", and that may actually be defined someplace that I am not familiar with off the top of my head...

eliakon wrote:

Razorwing wrote:The problem with using High or Low Base PPE to determine who is and isn't a Mage is very unreliable.

Children and Teenagers have much higher levels of PPE than adults... does this mean that all children and teens are mages? Of course not.

Not all mages have huge PPE bases... many do, but some have very little (mechanically due to a bad roll of the dice). The amount of PPE does not immediately prove that one is a spellcaster... just that one has a lot of energy that might be used for such.

The issue here is what one sets as "high"
if we say 20 or 30 is high then this might work...
...but if we use the standard from the Dog-Boy that says that it can detect mages by there reserve of 80+ PPE then its going to not work.

IIRC, CB1 has some kind of standard for what constitutes "high PPE."

You know what might be really useful and cool? If there was an artsy way to show what a "see aura" person sees. It could be a diagram with 9 versions of the same subject with different visual effects to indicate magic, psionics, et cetera. I bet MadManMike could do something like this.

25% of PLAYER CHARACTERS have Psychic abilities.

Do NOT confuse the rules that make player characters with the norm for all people. Player Characters are by their very nature exceptional individuals who take greater risks than the vast majority of people in the world. They account for at most 1% of the population... with the remaining 99% being very average to below average in most cases.

Even if we were to assume that 25% of ALL humans have Psychic abilities... that still doesn't make a lot of psychics in the world... let alone in the Coalition States (where they aren't actually trusted... you don't tattoo and electronically tag someone you trust... which almost ALL psychics are... including loyal Psi-Stalkers and Psi-Hounds). They are seen as a necessary evil in the Coalition States... using these "sub-humans" to protect the rest of humanity (and they are seen as less than human... even if they are held up as an example of what it means to be a selfless protector of humanity). In many ways, Psychics are treated much like many ethnic minorities in our modern society. But I digress.

So... if 25% of all humans have psychic abilities... that still isn't much. The City of Chi-Town only has about 2.2 million people... with another 3 million people living in the burbs outside of the city (though the amount of humans there is unknown... as there is also a sizable amount of D-Bees there too). The rest of the State of Chi-Town has another 1.3 million... though again we can't be sure how many of those are human. That puts the total number of humans probably close to the 5 million mark in the largest of the Coalition States. That would mean that the total number of psychics would be around 1.25 million.

of those 1.25 million... most wouldn't have a large amount of psychic ability... most would only have Minor Psychic Abilities with a smaller number of Major Psychics... and a far smaller number of Master Psychics. 60% of these Psychics (going by the division presented in the book... would only have 2 powers from 1 of the 3 minor categories. That is 750 thousand of these people. Of these... only 1/3rd have psychic sensitive powers... or 250,000 that may have psychic abilities that can give them this 1 power. There are approximately 25 known psychic sensitive abilities... which means that there is only a 4% chance that either one of these powers will be the see Aura power... but given that they have 2 powers we can increase that to maybe a 10% chance of having this one ability. This means that of all the minor psychics in the Coalition State of Chi-Town, only about 25,000 have this power... that's the ENTIRE State.

But what of the 500,000 Major or Master level psychics. Well... Master level psychics are not technically covered in the 25% of the human psychic potential... so we will assume that they make up less than 1% of the total population of psychics... that would mean less than 125 thousand. For simplicity... let's say the State of Chi-Town has less than 100,000 Master level human psychics in the entire state... which would include loyal Psi-Stalkers (but not Psi-Hounds as they are not human). Even here, not all Master Psychics will have access to See Aura... Bursters for example are not likely to have it (though it is possible) while Nega-Psychics won't have it at all. All said... maybe 25% of Master Psychics will have developed this ability (given the vast choices of powers many of these Psychics have)... and that is being generous. that adds another 25,000 psychics with this one power in the ENTIRE State of Chi-Town.

That still leaves us with approximately 400,000 Major Psychics to deal with. This is where things get a little tricky... as Major Psychics can have either 8 powers from 1 of the three lesser categories... or 6 powers from any of the three. Assuming that the spread is more or less equal... we would have 100,000 Major Psychics with 8 powers in the Psychic Sensitive category... and another 100,000 that might have sensitive powers as one or more of their 6 powers. We can probably assume that 1/3rd of the Major Sensitive Psychics will have this power... as they will have 1/3rd of all known Psychic Sensitive powers... that is approximately 33,000 more Psychics in the ENTIRE State. Of the Psychics that only have 6 abilities from any of the three lesser categories... the chances of having that 1 ability out of the 60 or so minor powers is much smaller... with a mere 10% of having it (they will have 1/10th of all known minor abilities)... adding a mere 10,000 psychics.

This means that from a total population of 1,250,000 possible human Psychics in the Coalition State of Chi-Town (the entire State)... less than 100,000 of them will have this one power. That is in the ENTIRE State of Chi-Town... with an estimated human population of about 5 million (making the overall prevalence of this ONE power being possessed by a mere 2% of the estimated total human population). With that large of a sample... we can expand that to assume that the prevalence of this ONE power is close to that number in all Psychics... with maybe 3-5% of all Psychics having this one specific power. In total, that may seem like a lot... but given how spread out populations are... it is still a very rare chance that a person one encounters will be both a psychic and possess this specific power. Even with 100,000 Psychics with this power in the entire State of Chi-Town... very few will actually be part of the military or have any real position of power within the political structure of the State... so the chances of being outted as a Mage by one of these individuals is also very low (not to mention the fact that they have to actively use the power, suggesting that they have to suspect something is off first... or that they are completely paranoid).

Finally... one also has to wonder how many of these individuals will actually know what the different aspects of a person's aura means... the number of Mages that get inside the City of Chi-Town are very low, so any minor psychic with this power living in the city may not realize what a high level of Base PPE may mean... assuming of course that such individuals happen across one of these rare infiltrators and look at their aura.

Yes... this power can be used to identify possible mages... but it isn't 100% reliable or common... and unless one is a Psi-Stalker, Psi-Hound or a member of the Military, such assessments may not mean much to the psychic.

The Palladium Book says the following right after the percentages

In the Palladium World, psychic powers are comparatively common.
Even an average person may have some degree of psychic power.

Comparatively common is a lot more than %1
Psi abilities aren't random anymore for the non-psionic classes, so people can pick, and going by what pc's pick see aura is pretty common.

In Palladium it is a very good way to ID wizards, as others just don't have the PPE as it picks out the aberrations as well. (hey look , that guy has high ppe and a presence of magic/supernatural, it looks human but isn't or hey the human has high ppe, the only way he can have that is by being a wizard, either way grab him for questioning)

And it only takes a few detecting at key points for you to make it real hard for a wizard to get around. Entrances to towns and cities for one.

Razorwing wrote:25% of PLAYER CHARACTERS have Psychic abilities.

Do NOT confuse the rules that make player characters with the norm for all people. Player Characters are by their very nature exceptional individuals who take greater risks than the vast majority of people in the world. They account for at most 1% of the population... with the remaining 99% being very average to below average in most cases.

Palladium Fantasy Revised Main Book Page 228 has the racial description for Humans. Page 228 has the stats where we find:
Psionics: Standard; See Psionics Section.
So yes, the rules are for ALL humans, not just players.
Those rules also apply to every other race that says "Standard" in the racial write up for psionic abilities.
That is why there are write ups, to tell us what the race is like, including the standard average member of said race.
The player characters might be exceptional in some ways...
...but they are still "just humans" in other ways.

The rest of this I am spoilering as they are irelivent to a thread in the Palladium Fantasy forum.

I was using the Coalition States as an example because it had been brought up before in this thread... and since Psionic Powers are in both settings (with very little difference)... it is relevant as an example.

Palladium Books is infamous for contradicting itself in many cases... saying that humans in a racial description in one place have the same psychic potential as the Adventurers... and other times when they say that Adventurers are above the norm and that most people DO NOT have psychic powers (even minor ones).

Really think it through of what even a medieval society would be like if 1 in 4 people had verifiable psychic powers... peasant and Nobles alike. Do you think that the Nobles would be treating their peasants like dirt if they thought there was even the slightest chance that one of them might lash out at them with a telekinetic push... or that peasants wouldn't be paranoid if they thought that any given Noble might be listening in to their thoughts of rebellion (even if they have no actual intention of acting on such thoughts) with telepathy? If even mere peasants that have no intention of adventuring have access to the kind of power that even minor and major psychics have... that changes the balance of power in most feudal societies. Do you think arrogant Nobles who rely on keeping the masses powerless will tolerate such power in the hands of mere peasants? Remember... in Palladium Fantasy, Psionics are still believed to be a form of magic... and in many areas it is reviled as unnatural too... which is likely to see purges and witch-hunts that slaughter many on the mere rumor that someone has "unnatural" abilities.

Simply put... take everything Palladium says about racial norms with about a cup of salt... because they never take that into account anywhere else.

Even without Master Psychic classes like Psi-Stalkers or Psi-Hounds in Palladium Fantasy, overall, the number of psychics (Master, Major or Minor) that will have this power will be very small indeed... and that number will be even smaller in the overall population. That's the thing about statistics... they remain true whether one is talking Palladium Fantasy or Rifts... the overall numbers remain more or less similar.

kiralon wrote:Comparatively common is a lot more than %1
Psi abilities aren't random anymore for the non-psionic classes, so people can pick, and going by what pc's pick see aura is pretty common.

A bit of non-canon world building...

I figure most Minor psychics are fairly random, in practice, perhaps tending towards family lines (i.e. "This family is almost always mediums, so they're likely to have Commune with Spirit and/or Clairvoyance and/or See Invisible"). They have an ability, they use it as they can. While the PLAYER picks those abilities, the CHARACTER likely just has them.

Major psychics are more likely to have have trained, at least some. Sort of like how a random person might be unusually strong, but an unusually strong person who doesn't work out isn't going to win any competitions. Minor psychics are usually the unusually strong person. Major psychics are the unusually strong person who worked out or had a job that made them exercise. This is why there's a cost (poorly implemented, but a cost) to being a major psychic.

Master psychics HAVE trained, and have usually trained in very specific ways. They're the guys who enter World's Strongest Man or Mr. Universe competitions (those being two very different kinds of preparation). You very rarely have natural master psychics with no training... at least, among humans.

Razorwing wrote:I was using the Coalition States as an example because it had been brought up before in this thread... and since Psionic Powers are in both settings (with very little difference)... it is relevant as an example.

Palladium Books is infamous for contradicting itself in many cases... saying that humans in a racial description in one place have the same psychic potential as the Adventurers... and other times when they say that Adventurers are above the norm and that most people DO NOT have psychic powers (even minor ones).

Interesting claim there do you have a citation?
Because all I can find is over and over again the exact opposite statement so I am rather curious where the statement about people not having psychic powers was written.
PF main page 155 "Approximately 25-30% of the human population possesses minor psionic abilities. Of them, a comparatively tiny percentage (25 to 4%) possess incredible psi powers."
PF main book Page 21 "In the Palladium World, psychic powers are comparatively common, Even an average person may have some degree of psychic power." (bold and italics original text)

Razorwing wrote:Really think it through of what even a medieval society would be like if 1 in 4 people had verifiable psychic powers... peasant and Nobles alike. Do you think that the Nobles would be treating their peasants like dirt if they thought there was even the slightest chance that one of them might lash out at them with a telekinetic push... or that peasants wouldn't be paranoid if they thought that any given Noble might be listening in to their thoughts of rebellion (even if they have no actual intention of acting on such thoughts) with telepathy? If even mere peasants that have no intention of adventuring have access to the kind of power that even minor and major psychics have... that changes the balance of power in most feudal societies. Do you think arrogant Nobles who rely on keeping the masses powerless will tolerate such power in the hands of mere peasants? Remember... in Palladium Fantasy, Psionics are still believed to be a form of magic... and in many areas it is reviled as unnatural too... which is likely to see purges and witch-hunts that slaughter many on the mere rumor that someone has "unnatural" abilities.

Again I would like to see the page citation for the claim that Psionics are purged and seen as "unnatural" (and that magic would be seen as unnatural in a magic world where anyone can be born with magic (warlock) )
It makes for an interesting grimdark house setting. But unless the game is set in The Middle Kingdoms of the Western Empire then there is not, as far as I am aware, any part of the Palladium Fantasy setting where Psionics are said to be seen as unnatural or purged.
As for the effect on the world? I would assume it should have the same level of effect as the ability for anyone to pray to a god for relief... and get it. For people to be randomly born linked to the elements (warlocks). For wizards to exist and magic. There should be vast changes in everything from the politics to the city structures... but there isn't. To claim that the lack of changes is acceptable for every other detail but not for psi is... yeah.

Razorwing wrote:
Simply put... take everything Palladium says about racial norms with about a cup of salt... because they never take that into account anywhere else.

It looks like they take it into account regularly though. In fact I can't find any part of the Palladium Fantasy setting that has any information that disagrees with the stated claims on page 289, which is total agreement with page 155. Even page 99 where we find the write up for Peasants supports this since it is an O.C.C. which means that since they are a character they go through the "Creating a Character" system and thus they would go through Step 3 How to Determine Psionics on page 20.

Razorwing wrote:Even without Master Psychic classes like Psi-Stalkers or Psi-Hounds in Palladium Fantasy, overall, the number of psychics (Master, Major or Minor) that will have this power will be very small indeed... and that number will be even smaller in the overall population. That's the thing about statistics... they remain true whether one is talking Palladium Fantasy or Rifts... the overall numbers remain more or less similar.

The burden though is on the one making the claim to prove it.
You are the one claiming that the power will be rare... so prove it with some sort of citation from a book supporting this in any way, shape or form.
In the mean time, I will present my proof and statistics here for peer review

Page 21 "In the Palladium World, psychic powers are comparatively common. Even the average person may have some degree of psychic power.
Page 155 "Approximately 25-30% of the human population possesses minor psionic abilities. Of them, a comparatively tiny percentage (25 to 4%) possess incredible psi powers."
Page 289 "Psionics: Standard; See psionics section"
Page 155 "Characters of O.C.C.s may posses major or minor psionc abilities. See Step Three in the Character Creation section for the random psionics table and details about these "lesser" psychics
Page 21 Random Psionics Table 01-09 Major Psionics 10-25 Minor Psionics 26-00 No Psionics

I am saying that 16% of the population is a Minor Psionic with 2 powers from any category. that gives us ~5% of the population that is selecting from Healing giving them a 2/19 chance of having See Aura (or any other particular ability). (Sorry, its been a bit since I did statistics and I'm rusty on I think it's .175% )

I am saying that 9% of the population is a Major Psionic which gives them either 8 powers from one category or 6 from any three assuming each option is equally represented
1/2 of 1/3 of 9% will have an 8/19 chance of having See aura (or any other particular ability) (Again I think this is 1.35)
where as the other
1/2 will have a 6/53 chance of having it (Again I think that's .5%)
Which, if I did my math right is going to be just over 2.025% of the population will have any specific psychic power

This is all assuming of course that the distribution of psionic abilities is totally random.
The distribution of any particular psychic ability in the population isn't going to be too wide spread, in any group of 50 or more people odds are that at one of them can see auras at least part time (or read minds, or see the future, or heal wounds, or pick up rocks with their minds, or resist cold or what ever)