P.S. over 30, Lift

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. Okay, so I was doing some work on exceptional attributes for a character and a question came up while talking with my wife.

Rifts Ultimate Edition (RUE) on page 284 has bonuses for attributes over 30. One note is:

For every five points above 30 (round down), the strong character can lift or carry 30% more than usual.

So at P.S. 35 you get a +30% to carry. Got it. Now at P.S. 40 you get an extra 30% to carry. Do we figure this out as flat 60% to the base, or an extra 30% of the extra 30%?

Beyond just a grammatically accurate answer, which do you think Palladium intended? I have my opinions, but also like to hear the view of others to try and make it as official as possible. Thank you for your time and help. Farewell and safe journeys.


::Edit:: Okay, so the questions just keep on coming. I'll add two more to the list.

2: A character can normally carry their P.S. x20 (over 17, and since this is talking about P.S. over 30, this would qualify). So at 30, the character can lift 600 lbs. Now, does the above statement (adding 30% to the usual) mean that at P.S. 35 we're adding 30% to 700 pounds, or does the lifting stop at 30 meaning 30% increase to 600? My wife and I again seem to disagree.

3: The above quote also mentions "lift and carry 30% more" than usual. So let's look at the "lift" part for a moment. Lift is normally double the carry capacity. I can think of three ways this rule could be applied. First, we can double the usual carry capacity, then add 30% to the carry and lift separately. This means you can Lift less than double once we reach a P.S. 35 or higher. Second, we can add 30% to carry, then double it, then add another 30% to lift. This would mean we're lifting more than double. Third, the 30% only applies to carry, and then you double it for lift. This means the sentence is just poorly worded, and you can "lift" more because you can carry more.

For note: The above questions apply to normal strength. Appreciate any thoughts on the matter.

[Glistam]

I did the math a long time ago, but ultimately as G.M. when I was making pre-gens I favored the math that was most beneficial to the amount that could be lifted.

[Glistam]

Ah, I found it. What I did was, for every 5 points above 30, I added the percentages together, then multiplies the final percentage by the final weight limit. So for example, a character with a P.S. of 45 would be able to carry 1,710 lbs and deadlift double that amount.

P.S. 45 × 20 lbs = 900 lbs
30% = 0.3
(45 - 30)/5 = 3
(0.3 × 3) = 0.9

900 lbs × 1.9 = 1,710 lbs

[drewkitty ~..~]

The way I see/read what is said is that the % is added in after the base L/C calculations (pounds per Score) are made.


I also as a GM would consider omitting or changing this rule for my game due to to looks like a M pandering rule. Partly because the C rules already doubles the c limits @ PS score 17. At very least I would make the over30 PS rule only apply only to 'Lifting'.

However, a Player Char having a normal PS of over 30 is very unlikely. So it is not a high rated concern..until a char with a PS over 30 is submitted for approval.

[Glistam]

I remember I was specifically applying this to Heroes Unlimited and the enhanced strength categories. I didn't do it in my current game, but I did in my last game. It didn't break the game to me; it was just more work than I wanted to do in this game.

[Prysus]

I remember I was specifically applying this to Heroes Unlimited and the enhanced strength categories. I didn't do it in my current game, but I did in my last game. It didn't break the game to me; it was just more work than I wanted to do in this game.

Greetings and Salutations. The work is a non-factor for me. The reason I ask is I'm developing something to remove the work. However, I want to make sure I'm using the right formula (or at least the generally agreed upon formula).

1: At P.S. 45 is it Carry +30%×3 (90%, where you just keep raising the % by 30) or 30%^3 (270%, you add 30%, then add 30% to that, then 30% to that)? My wife and I disagreed, so I wanted some additional feedback. I don't care whether her or I are correct, as long as the formula I use is correct.

2: Does the Carry stop at 30 (600 pounds) and then the % is added to that, or does the lift continue (900 pounds at P.S. 45) and then the % get added on top of that?

For the record Glistam, your response was clear from the information you provided. I'm just restating the question in a different way in case my question wasn't clear for some others. Farewell and safe journeys.

[Killer Cyborg]

Best I can tell you on this one is to go through all the books looking at NPCs created after that rule, see if any of them list the lift/carry weight, and compare notes on them.
The way it's worded, it's a toss-up what they meant.

[Axelmania]

multiplying lift by 1.6 seems easier than 1.69

[eliakon]

My belief is that it is 30%, 60%, 90%, and so on all of the base.
This is because the game tends to use simple formulas and principles and introducing a compounding formula would a new and unique thing. Which I personally find to be doubtful especially in something as core and unavoidable as strength. If they DID do something that novel I believe they would give it a better explanation and a demonstration, as they usually give a for example in a number of situations where a rule might be unclear. And while they do not do so for all of them, I would be surprised if they didn't do so for something as radical as utterly redoing the strength system to an entirely new form of math.

[guardiandashi]

I look at it as the simplest answer is the "right" one.
there is absolutely nothing that I have ever found that says your lifting/carrying limit stops increasing at some arbitrary number just that its Strength times multiplier.
so at 45 strength I would say its 45 X20 = 900lbs base carrying capacity
to make it simple I would just add the bonus, and multiply the total
so their adjusted carry at 45 strength is 900 times 1.9 = 1710 lbs, and their lifting doubles that so 3420lbs max lifting or just under 1.75 tons.
and if it was a dogboy it would be double that, (because of the little comment in lone star and in RUE pg 146 special features #6 )
double their effective lifting and carrying weight limit, and they fatigue at 1/2 the rate of a human so a dogboy (psihound) with a 45 strength could carry 3420lbs and lift 6840lbs or 3.42 tons!

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. So far the consensus appears to be that the Lift/Carry continues to increase beyond 30, and that the % increase is 30, 60, 90, etc. As such, this is the formula I'll be using until I hear a majority start voting the other way and/or someone provides an official answer. Thank you everyone for your time and input. Continued opinions are still welcome, but I wanted to provide a small update.

For those curious, the reason I asked is I've been working on an Excel based Character Sheet that will calculate your lift/carry, running speed, throw distance, attribute bonuses, and basically automatically add in attributes/bonuses into the correct places. There are limitations to the sheet (like doing the penalties to certain figures is problematic, or how a high M.A. provides bonuses to certain skills only and penalties to certain situations, or how certain O.C.C. or races may have special rules that break the norm), but I think it came out as a good basic character sheet. I've been testing this out recently with a few PF characters to work out the kinks. While not perfect, I think it fulfills the purpose I had hoped it would. Thank you and please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys to all.

[rc_brooks]

I realize this is a bit old now, but does this bonus also apply to supernatural strength? Our group had some disagreement on that.

[guardiandashi]

I realize this is a bit old now, but does this bonus also apply to supernatural strength? Our group had some disagreement on that.

Per a strict reading, no. however i personally think it should

[jlm2924]

Let me add my 2 cents. According to the descriptors under PS once you hit 24, the carry/lift is x50/x100. Also the Maximum strength for a human is 40 (not counting cybernetics, extraordinary PS, superhuman PS, or Supernatural PS). So if you applied +30% at 35, then you would apply it one more time at 40, ergo 1.6 is correct. All other PS points after 40 (for a normal human) are dropped as that character hit the maximum possible. SO max overhead the head press at 40 = 6,400 lbs! Calculated like this: 40*100=4000*1.6=6,400. Personally I don't use the +30% option and I came up for a fix regarding Palladium's PS attributes.

If you look at a PS of 23, the maximum that person can power lift is 960 lbs. This is, of course, like an Olympic power lifter a very LARGE individual. However +1 more point and you hit 24 at that point you're a mutant because the multiplier changes to x50/x100. So someone at 24 can power lift 2,400 lbs. This individual in nearly 3x stronger than 23. I henceforth call 23 "The Threshold". In my games I do not allow players to go beyond The Threshold unless there is a part of their character that allows for it (like Extraordinary PS, Super Human PS, Supernatural PS, Cybernetics or Robotic PS, or if they rolled a 24+ on their stats). Further I fixed the multiplier problem with the PS limits making it possible to compare PS values (and I too have an excellent fully coded excel sheet).

PS 24+ Norman Human x50 / x100 MAX 40
Extraordinary PS x100 / x200 MAX 45
Superhuman PS x200 / x400 MAX 60
Supernatural PS x400 / x800 MAX 75

Remember I don't add the +30% at all. So using the above "fixes" you get a little more lift for your buck and it makes the math entirely possible.

Example: A Human Super Powerhouse with a PS of 40 is the same as Extraordinary of 20 which is the same as Superhuman of 10 and Supernatural of 5. (Understand that these values only reflect lifting and damage is still by the book as I am looking into how to do that.)