Forums of the Megaverse®

I really could use some thoughts about good Operatives and Hunters in Heroes. I am pretty much revamping all of the special training categories, because so many of them are lackluster.

So tell me about your cool char concepts for Operatives and Hunters (if you have one at all!) and also tell me what you wish that power cat could do for you!

zerombr wrote:I really could use some thoughts about good Operatives and Hunters in Heroes. I am pretty much revamping all of the special training categories, because so many of them are lackluster.

So tell me about your cool char concepts for Operatives and Hunters (if you have one at all!) and also tell me what you wish that power cat could do for you!

Honestly, if I want an experienced operative who superstealths around and maintains a number of cover identities — and maybe has bionic feats on tap, if that’s the way you want to go — then it’s hard for me to avoid the temptation of simply breaking out NINJAS AND SUPERSPIES: sniper tricks, kung-fu moves, even the ability to just talk a little sense into someone; you name it, the toolkit is pretty much there.

Regularguy wrote:

zerombr wrote:I really could use some thoughts about good Operatives and Hunters in Heroes. I am pretty much revamping all of the special training categories, because so many of them are lackluster.

So tell me about your cool char concepts for Operatives and Hunters (if you have one at all!) and also tell me what you wish that power cat could do for you!

Honestly, if I want an experienced operative who superstealths around and maintains a number of cover identities — and maybe has bionic feats on tap, if that’s the way you want to go — then it’s hard for me to avoid the temptation of simply breaking out NINJAS AND SUPERSPIES: sniper tricks, kung-fu moves, even the ability to just talk a little sense into someone; you name it, the toolkit is pretty much there.

indeed, I had figured this was something of a dead topic the moment i posted it, but I wanted to see what people thought of the categories. N&S has some very good agent characters, for sure. And I'd probably do the same due to the hand to hand options alone!

Secret Operatives can be a fun class to play. I tend to see them as either the tactical leader of a team based on their experience, or the outsider who gets the job done when things are on the line. They have a good skill set, and access to all sorts of tech. Energy weapons, flexisteel, jet packs/flying harnesses, vibroblades, and light cybernetics are common for SOs, with things groups like SECRET providing exoskeletons. While it isn't in the RAW, but things like the nanites Wiz Kid has invented seem like they would be available to some agents.

So for me you might have a character that is made to harken back to a James Bond type in a Savile Row suit over a Flexi-Steel suit and impact layer, and a gadget watch, or one with more in common with a Jim Steranko Nick Fury cover using a flight pack, laser pistols and force field generator, or a alphabet agent in a light combat exoskeleton or with a pocket full of pills that provide temporary powers, all in the same class.

Hunter/Vigilantes can follow the same path, but in most of my games I'm afraid they end up being stand end for gun toting thugs. Better than a normal guy with a gun, but to fit with the power level of most of my games they need to go farther outside of the rules, or book examples compared to the SO. It might not be RAW, but I can't see a reason why a Hunter working for an agency wouldn't have access to the same "stuff" as the SO.

you know, it never occurred to me that Nick Fury is a secret operative, that makes perfect sense, and gives me more inspiration to draw from.


Now, assuming you have the newest rifter, my plan for both of those categories is to be revamped with an ability list like the Stage Mage has (already have the Super Sleuth done)

I think the last time I played a special training...yeesh too long, mostly because our games tend to be a leeeeetle on the crazy side but I remember a hunter worked out very well and was fun, just make sure you bring a big gun and HUNT your target, do you stand on an open safari and dare the lion to eat you? tempt a rhino to charge? no you set traps, your attack from range, you use cunning and viciousness and methods that normal people would never be able to pull off...that speedster thrashing your team? set up a trip wire and lob a grenade, that invincible character laughing off your bruisers beating? garrote him, that energy expulsion character melting your ride? put him down from out of his range

honestly special training isn't bad, you just have to do things differently and make sure the DM lets you, for instance the tanky mutant and rock alien may not care where they are in the fight cause, hey even if they get hit so what? but your looking for cover, finding alternate routes, using technology and cunning to get the drop on people, no way a stage magician can win vs a superstrength mutant? how about a blinding flash of light and then a stun gun, or maybe he just tripped you onto that contact glue. super agents have the best start with gadgets but really if your hunter/magician can't lay hands on some goodies to mess with more powerful enemies then your either not trying hard enough or your DM isn't letting you go all out. Heck how many movies have you watched someone use household items or a store to get or make the thing that they need to defeat the aliens/horror/inhuman creature?

and ancient masters...I honestly have no worries about them holding their own 90% of the time, often the person I know who plays them is the LEAST concerned when the supers start throwing down, and the first to pull some nonchalant move where there enemy ends up keeling over unable to fight.

Honestly this makes me wanna go play a special training character again...but they do need the DM to work with you a little, unlike a mutant or alien who tends to be a stat block that you can throw stuff at till it sticks

Nightmartree wrote:honestly special training isn't bad, you just have to do things differently and make sure the DM lets you, for instance the tanky mutant and rock alien may not care where they are in the fight cause, hey even if they get hit so what? but your looking for cover, finding alternate routes, using technology and cunning to get the drop on people, no way a stage magician can win vs a superstrength mutant? how about a blinding flash of light and then a stun gun, or maybe he just tripped you onto that contact glue.

But can’t you also do that stage-magician stuff as a guy with powers?

Can’t you still make a point of looking for cover, and pitching the occasional flash grenade before breaking out a stun gun, regardless of whether you also have powers? Can’t you still be just as cunning, and just as fond of getting the drop on people who may well get tripped next to the glue, even if you have powers? Can’t you still use household items, or make a trip to the store, despite having powers?

Regularguy wrote:

Nightmartree wrote:honestly special training isn't bad, you just have to do things differently and make sure the DM lets you, for instance the tanky mutant and rock alien may not care where they are in the fight cause, hey even if they get hit so what? but your looking for cover, finding alternate routes, using technology and cunning to get the drop on people, no way a stage magician can win vs a superstrength mutant? how about a blinding flash of light and then a stun gun, or maybe he just tripped you onto that contact glue.

But can’t you also do that stage-magician stuff as a guy with powers?

Can’t you still make a point of looking for cover, and pitching the occasional flash grenade before breaking out a stun gun, regardless of whether you also have powers? Can’t you still be just as cunning, and just as fond of getting the drop on people who may well get tripped next to the glue, even if you have powers? Can’t you still use household items, or make a trip to the store, despite having powers?

sure but why do you need to?want to?whats your motivation to spend hours and days learning how to slip ropes and put together gimmicks when you can just throw a firebolt or move faster than the eye can see?and unless you have a doctorate or so your not going to have the sheer amount of skills a special training character runs. Whats to stop the stage magician from using his skills to walk into a top secret lab and steal all the research and knowledge they have on super soldiers and give himself powers?

Nightmartree wrote:sure but why do you need to?want to?whats your motivation

Your whole point is that it often makes sense for a nonpowered guy to look for cover and get the drop on folks and use a variety of weapons and so on. Would it often make sense for a powered guy to do that stuff?

If the answer is ‘yes’, then that’d be why.

to spend hours and days learning how to slip ropes and put together gimmicks when you can just throw a firebolt or move faster than the eye can see?

But some powers don’t let you blast stuff or move any faster. With some powers, you’d still have exactly as much use for skills and cover and gear when up against this or that enemy; you’d just also have powers that’d occasionally come in handy. (You know, just like how some powers make you better at slipping ropes and putting together gimmicks, even though other powers don’t.)

Whats to stop the stage magician from using his skills to walk into a top secret lab and steal all the research and knowledge they have on super soldiers and give himself powers?

If that’s how it works, what’s to stop anyone from using their abilities to walk into a lab and steal stuff before doing things? If you think a ‘skills’ guy can do it, why do you think a ‘skills and powers’ guy can’t do it too?

Regularguy wrote:

Nightmartree wrote:sure but why do you need to?want to?whats your motivation

Your whole point is that it often makes sense for a nonpowered guy to look for cover and get the drop on folks and use a variety of weapons and so on. Would it often make sense for a powered guy to do that stuff?

If the answer is ‘yes’, then that’d be why.

to spend hours and days learning how to slip ropes and put together gimmicks when you can just throw a firebolt or move faster than the eye can see?

But some powers don’t let you blast stuff or move any faster. With some powers, you’d still have exactly as much use for skills and cover and gear when up against this or that enemy; you’d just also have powers that’d occasionally come in handy. (You know, just like how some powers make you better at slipping ropes and putting together gimmicks, even though other powers don’t.)

Whats to stop the stage magician from using his skills to walk into a top secret lab and steal all the research and knowledge they have on super soldiers and give himself powers?

If that’s how it works, what’s to stop anyone from using their abilities to walk into a lab and steal stuff before doing things? If you think a ‘skills’ guy can do it, why do you think a ‘skills and powers’ guy can’t do it too?

So if your the equivelant of the hulk or super man, or can dodge anything short of a nuclear bomb, or teleport to safety, or ect. your going to be approaching combat the same as the guy with a pocket full of pepper?

Your right some powers don't let you blast stuff or move faster, they let you do other things, like slip ropes or putting together gimmick, guess what, when that happens? you find situations where you can use your powers just like the skills guy finds ways to use his skills to do the same thing. And not every situation requires you to have super powers to be usefull, i'm pretty sure thats what i said...so why are you arguing that powers aren't always useful?

And sure, the super hero person can walk into a lab, steal their formula and use it on himself for more powers...but why should they? they have their powers, if they wanna risk the side effects and try for more, more power to them all we need is Megasuperawesomeempoweredamazing Dude, you know that guy who stole every super power out there and has 2000 years of college because he's immortal and is a literal god because he used his powers to gain worshipers and ascend before he mind controlled all the other gods and now rules the multiverse as the AllpowerfulMegasuperawesomeempoweredamazing Dude.

because some people don't want to be freaks? don't want to be supers? don't want inhuman powers? Some people are content with their lives, and feel that they can make a difference without wearing power armor? Sure they may not stop the moon from crashing into the Earth, but that doesn't mean their skills don't have value.

In short, if I rolled up a stage mage and kept trying to get powers out of it, I'd probably be a lot better off if I had just rolled a char with powers and taken out the middleman.

zerombr wrote:because some people don't want to be freaks? don't want to be supers? don't want inhuman powers? Some people are content with their lives, and feel that they can make a difference without wearing power armor? Sure they may not stop the moon from crashing into the Earth, but that doesn't mean their skills don't have value.

In short, if I rolled up a stage mage and kept trying to get powers out of it, I'd probably be a lot better off if I had just rolled a char with powers and taken out the middleman.

*applauds* and the point I was trying to make is that unless everyone is powergaming and your GM is short changing you then your stage magician can still contribute

yeah, its true the SM is more for lower-power games, but I happen to be writing a setting just for lower-power chars, where they get to come out from under the 'Hey guys, I'll just erase time for six weeks, its cool!" I love my Century Station games, love the high-caliber heroics, but I also want to get my Batman on at times.

So if your the equivelant of the hulk or super man, or can dodge anything short of a nuclear bomb, or teleport to safety, or ect. your going to be approaching combat the same as the guy with a pocket full of pepper?

But say you’re playing a cunning nonpowered planner who approaches combat by using cover and flash grenades and all the rest — including, as you say, a pocketful of pepper. Because he’s not bulletproof, and he can’t reliably dodge bullets; and he can’t teleport away if normal guys with bullets get the drop on him, so he works to get the drop on them.

So what happens if he has Negate Super Abilities? If he’s going into a situation where he’s only up against normal guys, he (a) may as well not even have that power; which I figure means he (b) would still act the same, using cover and weapons and gimmicks while getting the drop on people. And when he’s facing a super, the only thing his power might be good for is — turning it into a situation where he’s facing a normal, which is what we were just talking about with cover and weapons and so on.

Same with Mimic: when it’s just him and normals, he (a) effectively has no power, and so (b) has as much reason as any nonpowered hero to be a cunning planner who uses cover and weapons and the rest.

Your right some powers don't let you blast stuff or move faster, they let you do other things, like slip ropes or putting together gimmick, guess what, when that happens? you find situations where you can use your powers just like the skills guy finds ways to use his skills to do the same thing.

Well, not necessarily. Some powers just grant a bonus to this or that skill; you’d presumably still take the ‘slip ropes’ and ‘put gimmicks together’ skills, just as if you didn’t have any powers, despite having a power that just lets you succeed a little more often.

At that, what about something like Pause Temporal Flow? Yeah, a few times per day you can grant yourself a little free time to do stuff — but as soon as that effect wears off, you’re not bulletproof and you have no ‘deal direct damage’ powers or anything; so you’d be well-advised to use those fifteen seconds to get behind cover and draw your weapon — or, if you’d already done that (and why wouldn’t you?) then you’d maybe be well-advised to set traps, or otherwise get ready to act like a skilled guy who has some useful gimmicks.

Or take Darkness Control: you fire it up, and — well, anyone in that darkness could still shoot you, so I figure you’d still use cover; and, since your power won’t directly deal out any damage, I figure you’ll then still use weapons or gimmicks or whatever on them. (And since you never know when you’re going to come up against someone who can see in that darkness, or who can negate your ability to create that darkness, I figure you’d go into situations like a cunning guy who relies on skills and tries to sneakily get the drop on people.)

And not every situation requires you to have super powers to be usefull, i'm pretty sure thats what i said...so why are you arguing that powers aren't always useful?

Because the fact that powers sometimes aren’t useful — combined with the fact that skills are sometimes useful — means that it makes sense for a powered guy to develop his skills; and it also means that, if you’re a cunning enough planner to play a nonpowered guy with skills, you don’t suddenly lose your knack for ‘cunning planner’ stuff just because your character has a power.

Think of how big a fan as you are — right now — of using cover and weapons and gimmicks and all the rest while getting the drop on people: you can still keep thinking that way if your character gets a power; you can still be just as sensible, and I don’t see why you’d bother to stop.

Nightmartree wrote:*applauds* and the point I was trying to make is that unless everyone is powergaming and your GM is short changing you then your stage magician can still contribute

But this is where you lose me: is it powergaming when your stage magician cunningly uses cover and skills and weapons and gimmicks to contribute? Is it powergaming if you keep contributing by doing all of that, but the guy also owns an enchanted weapon or something?

Regularguy wrote:

Nightmartree wrote:*applauds* and the point I was trying to make is that unless everyone is powergaming and your GM is short changing you then your stage magician can still contribute

But this is where you lose me: is it powergaming when your stage magician cunningly uses cover and skills and weapons and gimmicks to contribute? Is it powergaming if you keep contributing by doing all of that, but the guy also owns an enchanted weapon or something?

Its power gaming when you build a character to have the absolute most combat potential you can at the cost of everything else. Some people like having a guy who can trash a city before breakfast and then another two before dinner and the alien fleets that were visiting. That's alright, but if he is in a campaign were you have a stage magician and all your GM lets that stage magician have is a pocket full of pepper, some smoke bombs and a few extra pockets...that's not alright.

Its power gaming if you say that since the special training categories are just a skill set its okay for you to make a mutant with invulnerability and flight and take the ancient master category.

What i'm talking about is that in a NORMAL campaign a special training category has the ability to do a variety of things even if they can't do the frontal assault beat down that some mutants do (the "high" powered ones). They have their own abilities and skills that allow them to take another route. Sure anyone can use a flashbang, everyone can throw dirty in someones eyes, or use tactics like circling the enemy as their allies go in the front. But in general these tactics are used by characters that need them to even the playing field or by characters made to make these tactics more effective. They were just some examples of things I might have my special training character do if they had to fight a mutant with combat powers.

And even if the campaign is on a higher power level that doesn't make them useless, just about every special training category has a focus and skillset that is usable in nearly any campaign...assuming your GM allows it to be done. Honestly i think that most of the special training categories work better in an alien/space/future enviorment, mostly because every one has tech and it frees them from the constraints of human tech. A stage magician juggling plasma grenades and energy knives when he's not using a flash of smoke and active camo to dissapear, a hunter using all he's learned hunting alien beasts, a secret agent packing tech beyond what everyone else has....

basically all i'm trying to say is that special training only gets marginalized if you let it, they have their own ways to keep up and they can do things that mutants can't (at least not without a doctorate and GM leniency, but special training also require more from you GM then just "theres a bad guy attacking smash it!")

Nightmartree wrote:They have their own abilities and skills that allow them to take another route. Sure anyone can use a flashbang, everyone can throw dirty in someones eyes, or use tactics like circling the enemy as their allies go in the front. But in general these tactics are used by characters that need them to even the playing field or by characters made to make these tactics more effective. They were just some examples of things I might have my special training character do if they had to fight a mutant with combat powers.

But what I’m asking is: if that’s what you might have a special training character do, then why would you stop doing that if you start playing a character who has a super power?

If you’re playing a nonpowered guy, it sounds like you’d think in terms of staying behind cover while circling around behind enemies he could then get the drop on — the better to pitch a flashbang at them, or snipe them from a distance, or whatever — and you’d have him bring along useful gear, but have him eyeball the surroundings for impromptu solutions to the problem du jour; and there’d presumably be tricks with explosives and smokescreens and anything else that occurs to you along the way.

If so, then wouldn’t you keep doing that even if he had a power?

Regularguy wrote:

Nightmartree wrote:They have their own abilities and skills that allow them to take another route. Sure anyone can use a flashbang, everyone can throw dirty in someones eyes, or use tactics like circling the enemy as their allies go in the front. But in general these tactics are used by characters that need them to even the playing field or by characters made to make these tactics more effective. They were just some examples of things I might have my special training character do if they had to fight a mutant with combat powers.

But what I’m asking is: if that’s what you might have a special training character do, then why would you stop doing that if you start playing a character who has a super power?

If you’re playing a nonpowered guy, it sounds like you’d think in terms of staying behind cover while circling around behind enemies he could then get the drop on — the better to pitch a flashbang at them, or snipe them from a distance, or whatever — and you’d have him bring along useful gear, but have him eyeball the surroundings for impromptu solutions to the problem du jour; and there’d presumably be tricks with explosives and smokescreens and anything else that occurs to you along the way.

If so, then wouldn’t you keep doing that even if he had a power?

Most of the time i'm trying to think of the best way to use my powers. If i'm an invulnerable meat wall my goal is to get shot as much as possible so people don't shoot at my friends. Similar if an an unkillable regenerator or an APS who is resistant to harm. If I have super strength I'm more likely to take a straight line to my target, after all doors are just an option when your strong enough. Night stalking in the dark? sure I can sneak, but now i'm more likely to sneak around and assassinate than to avoid danger and go for an objective, why? because my ability to hide being from a power gives me a bit more leeway as long as I meet the conditions. As a teleporter i'm trying to find line of sight or if I have the skills access to cameras and lay outs so that the entire place is but a step away (this is a super hero who would love a super sleuth on the team, all the information he needs the sleuth can get, and the sleuth can do it easier than anyone else). If I have divine aura i'm trying to find some weak willed people to coerce or causing a riot/leading a team of normal people to cause a distraction.

the reason you stop doing certain things with a super powered character is because your powers give you different options, if you have a high powered gravity hammer, then you of course prefer to hit nails rather than trying to find a wrench for some nuts or a welder for a sheet of metal. The unpowered heros are given a tool belt of abilities, the mutant usually gets a power tool or two that they try to make work in every situation. If you don't more power to you, but the original point of this thread was asking about how we felt about unpowered heros and I feel they're fine, you just have to actually play them to their potential instead of coasting on your powers.

What sort of bad guys do your character/team encounters? Who you fight has a big influence on what works. If your average thug is equal to a Century Station gangbanger, with the real toughs as Color Punks than a street level Stage Magician with pepper in their pockets, or Hunter/Vigilante with a couple of toys works. If the average baddie is a pack of nasties in SHOCK armor, or a former military mercenary group outfitted with the best from the Workshop the SM or H/V will need more then flash powder and a sniper perch.

On a different note, how characters react and work in battle should have at least something to do with their backstory and education level. If you take a mutant or accidental experiment with say Super Energy Expulsion, Targeting, Heightened Sense of Balance, and Heightened Sense of Awareness who was a third grade school teacher with YMCA learned hth, they are not going to see/deal with a combat situation in the same way as a character with the same power set who was a military academy trained officer, or who was taught to use his or her powers by a backing agency(combat training by the Mutant Underground, alphabet soup group responsible for the experiment, etc).
Just my two cents.

RockJock wrote:If the average baddie is a pack of nasties in SHOCK armor, or a former military mercenary group outfitted with the best from the Workshop the SM or H/V will need more then flash powder and a sniper perch.

Instant glitter? throw it at a guy, cover him and his entire suit of armor in a shiny glittery sensor and visor covering mass of particulate, perhaps made from a material that will flash to an incredibly hot fire when hit by a catalyst?

and i'll say this a sniper really isn't supposed to put down a lot of people, and the real question that should be asked when a sniper starts firing heavy armor piercing rounds isn't "can we get the guy with our high tech suits of armor and toys" but rather "am i the one whos gonna get shot first". Even a military unit will take cover when sniper fire starts dropping by. Then you for the best effect have hopefully trapped nearby vehicles/locations with cover and escape routes (yours and theirs) to ensure that your targets are weakened and slowed. Probably a bomb if you can manage it at initial sniper location to get people who try to rush your position as you move to wherever you have to be to complete your objective, and as a hunter that objective should probably be a person or object, not a group. If your hunting a group you'd do best to lure them into a location where you have matters prepared and can hopefully weedle them down one by one until they're manageable. If the objective is a person try to separate him from the pack and bring them down alone, distractions, and forcing them to flee down a route you choose are good ways to do start. If you can make them lose units before the conflict that would be a good option, a car that suddenly has trouble needing to pull off or slow down the escape, a tracer beacon so you know where the target is at any moment (trace the cars if not the person, this also means that you'd likely had access to their vehicles at some point, this will let you rig them for trouble if you have the know how). It becomes a battle between you and the prey you seek, and if they realize your hunting them, that your pushing them and separating them and react to counter it...that's when it gets fun

this thread is really making me wanna play a hunter again, but its a lot more set up and compexity than a team of mutants going "lets get them!" and then breaking face...

I think the problem is that there are two mutaually exclusive schools of thought on this topic.

School one is the school that says that (in the end) views a character as the sum of their abilities. In this school skill based characters are not considered useful because you can get almost all the skills with a character that also has abilities... so why make the weaker character?

School two is the school that says that in the end the character is about the character and that abilities are just a way to contribute. That sometimes it isn't the number of d6 you can do, but having the right tool for the job.

I know I am highly simplifying here, and I am not trying to be insulting or short changing anyone. It is just that some people come at the game from one direction, some from another. And these two view points look at certain classes or powers in different ways.

eliakon wrote:I think the problem is that there are two mutaually exclusive schools of thought on this topic.

School one is the school that says that (in the end) views a character as the sum of their abilities. In this school skill based characters are not considered useful because you can get almost all the skills with a character that also has abilities... so why make the weaker character?

School two is the school that says that in the end the character is about the character and that abilities are just a way to contribute. That sometimes it isn't the number of d6 you can do, but having the right tool for the job.

I know I am highly simplifying here, and I am not trying to be insulting or short changing anyone. It is just that some people come at the game from one direction, some from another. And these two view points look at certain classes or powers in different ways.

Well, I don’t feel insulted, but I may feel short-changed. Because, as it happens, I’m not sure I do see those as “mutually exclusive”.

With regard to that second school of thought, I figure that — as you just put it — the character is about the character, and abilities are just a way to contribute; and that sometimes it’s not about how many d6 you can do, but about having the right tool for the job. And if I were playing a nonpowered character who excels at being the clever guy who plans ahead and improvises in the moment, using cover and weapons and gimmicks and whatever’s at hand, I’d like to think I’d really shine.

And if I were playing that character, only he had a power or two — well, then, all of that’s still true, so I figure that I’d still play him with exactly as much cleverness; because, well, that’s the character, right? I’d just keep on doing second-school-of-thought stuff, because I’d figure he wouldn’t suddenly become less clever upon getting a power.

Night,

Your glitter/flash powder that burns super duper hot is an upgrade of the basic powder in the book. The particles blocking vision have to work against IR, UV, and thermo imaging, (since the Workshop builds with Multi-Optics)plus pulling the goggles up to use the old Mark Is.

Most of the run of the mill rifles are doing 4d6 or 5d6 to about 2,000 ft versus my example Workshop outfitted merc using a handheld grenade launcher doing 2d4x10 at 3,000ft.

This doesn't even bring up the bad guy examples have a couple hundred sdc in armor with a decent to good AR and other advantages(SHOCK armor has a jetpack for example).

My examples were meant to make the point that if you are playing a higher powered game the H/V, or SM come benefit from access to a good bit more kit, including things like your super glitter. In an environment where an average beat cop has an automatic weapon capable of bursts and SWAT has a decent exoskeleton and a laser rifle you might need more than the basic tech and gear.

zerombr wrote:Tell me about your Secret Operatives

But if we did that they wouldn't be secret anymore.

RockJock wrote:Night,

Your glitter/flash powder that burns super duper hot is an upgrade of the basic powder in the book. The particles blocking vision have to work against IR, UV, and thermo imaging, (since the Workshop builds with Multi-Optics)plus pulling the goggles up to use the old Mark Is.

My examples were meant to make the point that if you are playing a higher powered game the H/V, or SM come benefit from access to a good bit more kit, including things like your super glitter. In an environment where an average beat cop has an automatic weapon capable of bursts and SWAT has a decent exoskeleton and a laser rifle you might need more than the basic tech and gear.

Yes but all of those visions are entirely blockable with the right material (and in fact most are simply blocked by solid matter) and if you pull off those multi optics and are using the mark I eyeball...that's glitterable too and likes sudden combustion even less.

and ya I get it, my thing is if your hunter is facing people in exoskeletons with laser rifles...why doesn't he have his own tech? same with the SM, supers scale through experience and powers, non-supers scale use tech and skills, on an equal tech level a SM or a H/V shouldn't be losing out.

Really the rifles in the main book aren't that good, the single shot aren't worth much of a mention and most of the rifles are meant for burst fire or full auto, not single shot. Even a .50 cal is only 6d6 compared to the machine guns 1d6x10...which after talking to my father the damage shouldn't be that different round to round unless your discussing the mounted .50 cals which btw can stop a jet in the air when they open up. Forget a man on the ground. Back to topic, so really most of the people I see with sniper rifles are packing something similar to the simpyr from aliens 1d6x10 or that laser rifle from rifts that does 1d4x10 per shot, which unless your using the material piercing rules or some such...can both be stopped with a little luck by a set of leather armor or modern concealed armor, which means the only way your killing things is called shots and hoping you GM gives nice bonuses for wherever you hit. Also gonna have to ask are those guys slinging a grenade launcher around everywhere or did they bring it special for you? cause unless your in the middle of no where, and they're expecting you and a few one man armies to show up...why in the world is your hunter fighting them? What did you do to pull down so much heat that a team of guys in power armor with grenade launchers (ignoring the fact that do we really wanna have an entire team of guys with grenade launchers?what do they do when you get too close?) found out your identity or staged a incident to get you? if they aren't focused on you specifically...they i'd say that's when I hunter gets to play his game, get some people who are alone or wounded and finish them off. You shouldn't be trying to face that kinda heat head on, even if your also equipped with the same level of gear, its not a very hunter thing to do? If they're after your team then you provide cover, set up traps and other things. If you have to get something they are guarding that doesn't mean you have to fight them all.

You saying they benefit from a good bit more kit, doesn't contradict me at all, i'm saying that if your in that high powered campaign and don't have that kit something is wrong. Personally? clippers from aliens, an EMP device (perhaps something you attach to an enemy to bypass EMP shielding?and add some spice to life),camouflage that blocks out thermos imaging, a drone who maps surrounding and marks targets/enemies, probably a few smoke grenades/noisemakers, some explosives (and remote detonators), and leg traps, a high powered rifle (1d6x10 sounds right) targeting and a multi optics system, maybe an exo suit of your own....that sounds like a decent enough hunter for a higher tech game and I didn't even break into the REAL high tech toys, like camouflage and plasma casters...the arm nuke revenge is a plus

Night,

I agree that we are basically saying the same thing. The RAW book versions can easily be out classed.

I also see the mutant/experient having a chance to upgrade as well as the HV/SM. Multi-optics, body armor, whatever.

RockJock wrote:I also see the mutant/experient having a chance to upgrade as well as the HV/SM. Multi-optics, body armor, whatever.

I agree, however I think they would have a lower amount/quality available than the special training (access to general gear, and far less specialized things). Unless there is some backstory involved explaining why your mutant has contacts like that or your special training is lacking contacts in their field.

I feel like being part of a special training category should give you at least access to people who can provide (for a price) the things relevant to your trade. Like a perk of being a hunter is knowing a good "specialty" shop, or this one guy who can custom make just what your looking for in a rifle for your next trip into the jungle, concrete or otherwise. I mean, your supposed to be a long time hunter with years of hunting across the world, or the other categories are skilled specialist in their fields. That doesn't happen in a void. A mutant is just a person who was born with weird stuff, they could get picked up by an organization, or be born wealthy, but maybe they're only Random Joe off the street and have trouble tying their shoes too. The special training even if they're currently out on their luck, broke and hated by everyone they ever met has to have started somewhere to acquire they're skills, and most of them have a very specialized skillset. Experiments have a better chance of having gear from the organization, but there is a good chance that they were selected because they had a high odds of success and not because they were Rambo first and a super second (no matter what we as PC's make them into).

But this is all GM and backstory related...nothing set in game specifically, but...a mutant can be anyone, a special training agent or hunter HAS to have that in their background, which would give them contacts or knowledge of those cultures/resources...which most mutants wont have

Again, pretty much on the same page. That was my point with the mutant school teacher versus one who has a background.

That is why you have everything from supersuits like the X-Men, to Cable, Domino, and Deadpool having everything and the kitchen sink in comics.