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Ok, I read the Hardware Unlimited Ver 0.0.5 thread, and I started wondering : How far should you let players go with inventing things? A lot of things in that thread are effectively giving super powers. This is in pretty big contrast to the sample inventions in HU2 (nightvision sunglasses, modified shotgun shells...). Admittedly, we now have the super-invention category from PU2, and some example NPC's that are making super inventions - Whiz Kid for example (belt forcefields, nightmaker grenades, etc.), and Soundwave in VU (Sonic Power anyone?). So what modifiers do you use for someone who wants to develop a super-invention? How much does it cost?

Further question, are really high "conventional" skills - the natural genius for example - more limited than Hardware characters?

I typically don't let Hardware characters invent things with superabilities. They typically build things that are more common like robots and weapons and vehicles.

I just answered a similar question in the GM Section about Rifts Operators. http://palladium-megaverse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=155040

My post is a few posts down but I think it'll be useful to you too.

Hey, there are actually people here - this sat for a week without replies. Thank you to both of you.
Beast, I replied to your post in the other thread.

But for this thread, my take is pretty close to Stone Gargoyle's - I am very hesitant to let people build super-abilities. IMO 1) It steps on other power categories' toes, 2) It can be game breaking - too much relative power to an individual PC - a suit of PA with a teleporter, an image inducer/holo camouflage, flight, and onboard weapons is easily a mega hero. The problem is, of course, is that we have so many examples of weird (unrealistic) invented capabilities in Palladium canon - say the holographic invisibility system (Mutants Down Under), assorted antigrav flight systems, Fabricators Inc. has teleporters, forcefields (and projected force fields - air densifiers anyone?), the Dark Tribunal has hypno masks...

pad300 wrote:Hey, there are actually people here - this sat for a week without replies. Thank you to both of you.
Beast, I replied to your post in the other thread.

But for this thread, my take is pretty close to Stone Gargoyle's - I am very hesitant to let people build super-abilities. IMO 1) It steps on other power categories' toes, 2) It can be game breaking - too much relative power to an individual PC - a suit of PA with a teleporter, an image inducer/holo camouflage, flight, and onboard weapons is easily a mega hero. The problem is, of course, is that we have so many examples of weird (unrealistic) invented capabilities in Palladium canon - say the holographic invisibility system (Mutants Down Under), assorted antigrav flight systems, Fabricators Inc. has teleporters, forcefields (and projected force fields - air densifiers anyone?), the Dark Tribunal has hypno masks...

i'd say don't let them build super abilities unless A) its part of their core concept as in they have devoted their life's work to creating a portable mind control device or a serum that gives you super strength, this doesn't allow them to have every power under the sun but if your PC is brilliant genius inventor I think they should be able to push the boundaries in their field, just not every field or B) they have an example of the tech to reverse engineer, even with this if you feel that it would imbalance things for your PCs to get the tech have it destroy in a freak accident, self destruct or simply be beyond understanding for anyone not a peak expert in that field. They can use a teleporter but not duplicate it unless that have degrees in physics, spacetime anomalies and a few decades of practical experience with teleportation powers.

And you don't have to build super abilities, even slightly improving modern tech could quickly make a character quite powerful, what if he designs a new polymer that improves his class 4 hard armor, tweaks and modifies a heavy pistol for more damage, then adds explosive armor piercing rounds, adds a full optics helmet, ect. ect. ect. over time that all adds up.

As for cost? It depends totally on what you think is needed for the item, if they can assemble if from soda cans and pseudo science then its gonna be pretty cheap, if they need pure crystals of this grade and clarity that have to be man made and cost billions...

pad300 wrote:Hey, there are actually people here - this sat for a week without replies. Thank you to both of you.

I don't always browse the forums to see what new threads come up. Sometimes I just check the threads I'm already posting in.
But, yeah, it takes away the specialness of the Super Invention category to allow Hardware characters to create and give new devices to others. Not to mention the fact that it can get out of hand really quick. If you do allow it, make it a rare occurrence and cost prohibitive.

I'm very late to the party, but here is my two cents. I tend to limit Hardware to non-superpowers as well. There are exceptions, but they tend to fall into one of two categories. If they have several powers they tend to be treated like Megas in our games. Wiz Kid from Century Station has already been mentioned, but he is the perfect example of a Hardware/Inventor we would consider a Mega. HU still has a lot of gimmicky tech characters thrown in there. Some like Soundwave I would probably be built as a Super Invention character today (as was suggested), but others tech bits and pieces are much lower level such as Spinnerette from GI and her glue grenades (carpet of adhesion from a tech base) or even Apex from CS with his Catchwebs (magic net without the magic). The one trick pony stuff I usually leave as the base character type (not a Mega), as long as the power doesn't seem to be unbalancing.

For cost I tend to use the Eugenics class as a really, REALLY basic starting point for the cost of making a super invention. You can flip through the class and usually come up with something in the realm of what you want the Super Invention to be, and fudge it up or down from there. As for modifiers, well, out Super Inventions have been pretty much in character creation, or taken from an NPC during the game(including an NPC bequeathing her inventor to a new player).I have used alien tech modifiers to fix unfamiliar super inventions, but it has not been universal.

Over time I've made the Natural Genius less of an inventor, and more of an "understander". By this I mean a Hardware character might build a laser, specialized shotgun shell, or even a battlesuit, where I would have a Natural Genius be competent, and able to copy a piece a tech they could examine, or maybe come up with a counter, but not be able to just come up with it on their own. We tend to play Natural Geniuses more like Rick Hunter, or even Batman, where Hardware (well, except for Weapons) and Super Invention inventors as more along the lines of Tony Stark or Hank Pym.

A related issue that comes up in our games fairly often is availability of super tech. There are so many sources of tech from Fabricators Inc and the Workshop to aliens and SHOCK to spy and police organizations that it is hard to keep high tech weapons and equipment off the black market (think Spiderman Homecoming or even Black Panther). A mafia enforcer with the equal of SHOCK armor, or a gang banger with a shotgun firing rounds equal to Apex's Microjet arsenal can up the ante for heroes. Make it a Secret Operative, or Hunter with those weapons and it can change the flavor of the character. Add in other equipment like Fabricator's Vibro Blades or Archimedes Knuckle Dusters and you can easily have Training characters with the equal of several minor powers. Most of our games are on the fairly high-powered level, so it tends to be equalizers with god, mutants, and Megas, but it can quickly unbalance a game if left without oversight. How would heroes from CS fair if the Minotaur decided to give colors gangs CSWAT level equipment, and the Syndicates upgraded their equipment (ninjas with vibroblades and Flexisteel body armor, Triads with guns and armor from the Workshop, the Red Menace using the gear of their boss, etc )?