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im working on a character with one of my players for my rifts campaign and we're not exactly sure how to do it.
Hes set on the idea of flying to the moon.to do this hes using the techno-form power in conjunction with cloaking,so he can turn into a spacecraft and evade the killer satellites which wont be able to detect him.but we're not sure if the techno-form would allow a spacecraft/shuttle shape.even if we do allow it to mimic a spacecraft/shuttle,should we allow it to mimic an FTL capable one(i personally think its a bit much).in the alternative i'd would probably require he take the power of superluminal flight.hes not sure he'd want his third major to be superluminal flight,but we cant find any other powers that could achieve escape velocity.

So being indecisive on this matter we're open to opinion.

iteration27 wrote:im working on a character with one of my players for my rifts campaign and we're not exactly sure how to do it.
Hes set on the idea of flying to the moon.to do this hes using the techno-form power in conjunction with cloaking,so he can turn into a spacecraft and evade the killer satellites which wont be able to detect him.but we're not sure if the techno-form would allow a spacecraft/shuttle shape.even if we do allow it to mimic a spacecraft/shuttle,should we allow it to mimic an FTL capable one(i personally think its a bit much).in the alternative i'd would probably require he take the power of superluminal flight.hes not sure he'd want his third major to be superluminal flight,but we cant find any other powers that could achieve escape velocity.

So being indecisive on this matter we're open to opinion.

Rocket Fists (powers unlimited 1 p. 82) can do it, as can anti-grav flight (slowly). However, if the technoform is not an integral part of the idea I'd suggest giving him APS Light and ignore the makes absolutely no sense maximum altitude for the power.

Take Space Native to avoid having to worry about breathing in a vacuum. Just the combo of Rocket Fists and Super-luminal flight would also work as written to give a pretty nice ability to traverse space. Flight:Space could be in the mix as well. Rocket-fists also gives you a pretty potent attack ability (as well as to crash into things without taking any damage).

hmm im not sure about rocket fists.i think escape velocity is about 25000mph so to reach escape velocity with rocket fists he'd need to be way over lvl 15,and he couldnt really use it in vehicle form,so couldnt take anyone with him.techno form is the basis of his idea,as is being a party vehicle of sorts,so any power used would need to be useable in vehicle form.but as a techno form he wont need space survival powers as its included in techno form.
I didnt see any anti-grav flight power,where was that?
superluminal flight is probably the best bet sofar,but he wasnt keen on it,as it cant go any slower.but it would achieve escape velocity and get him to the moon in a matter of seconds.
the idea of becoming an actual spacecraft is still on the table,but as the power description only mentions turning into conventional vehicles and doesnt mention spacecraft,we're not sure if the any vehicle description applies.

oh do you mean anti-gravity flight (self) under gravity manipulation? yeah that we DID look at,but he didnt want gravity manipulation.i guess i could possibly assign it as a minor power,but it is a bit slow.although i could allow him to fly at his normal speed in vehicle form,using the gravity flight for altitude(basically transforming to a vehicle with an anti-grav drive) getting around the spacecraft issue.but then he'd be limited to his normal speeds in space,taking forever to get anywhere lol so he'd still need an extra power to make him go faster than a few MACH.

I guess i could allow him to become a space fighter craft,but he'd have to see one first,and they're not exactly common on RIFTS earth.

He should keep technoform as with SLF he can become a space shuttle for his team mates.
If the GM dislikes this get bio-aura, as that should protect your insides, and they will be inside you.

i am the GM for the game and im happy with his altered form providing environmental protection for passengers.i guess the actual question is,can he transform into spacecraft,as only terrestrial vehicles are given as example.and if not,how does he achieve escape velocity? superluminal flight is the biggest contender,but he was hoping to find another way so he can use his last major power slot for something else.

Reading through the power while they don't give examples of a space ship I honestly don't see why they wouldn't be able to turn into one. I'd probably limit it to ones based on the 'general' tech level of the campaign setting and planet the character is from, so if it's a version of Earth like our world but with supers and they don't have future tech etc I'd say he could do a space shuttle or something like that, but not let him turn into an Atorian space ship with a FTL drive.


Daniel Stoker

well i posted here cos its a powers question,but its set on rifts earth.the problem with that is they dont have spacecraft and the power says he can turn into any vehicle he's seen.the other problem im having is the vehicle forms dont have any sensors,so space navigation would be next to impossible with all the readings and calculations that would be needed,even with appropriate skills.which is why im not sure a spacecraft would be possible.he just cant emulate ALL the bells and whistles.

Well I guess then the very first question is what type of space vehicles has he seen then? And nothing says you can't bring a navigation system from another ship (or wreck) and use it to give the character directions. I mean it seems easily possible to do it based on the description even if he's limited to where he can fly to in orbit and the like. Outside the solar system and via FTL... that's going to be a REAL PITA but you can also do that too with help from characters on board even if the trip takes a lot longer as they make small jumps and plot his course over and over again.

Think of it as two people on ships in the sea, one who has GPS and can just plot a course and go compared to someone else with a sextant and a map who has to stop and make measurements and calculations 3 times a day and make multiple course course corrections due to currents, wind, etc. It's not going to be as easy, but it IS doable.


Daniel Stoker

oh no,of course i do agree with what you just said.it is possible with the right tools.i was just thinking in terms of what is possible for the character just based on his powers,in order to come to a decision about what he can become.and seein as the power doesnt give him the tools for the job,im not sure it WOULD allow spacecraft transformation.or it would,but only in terms of form and not function.requiring,like you said,the extra tools or appropriate powers.of course i dont think there are any appropriate powers for space navigation,only skills.

I don't see any reason why he wouldn't be able to become a space craft even if he can't navigate on his own, but that's me and how the power seems to read to me. Much like turning into a car you don't get to know how to get to Omaha from Rio you can still transform into a car and try and drive there. And you can fly as a space craft to your hearts content, but getting home is gonna be more then a bit of an issue without help.


Daniel Stoker

well a car doesnt need all the complex navigational equipment to know where its going.a spacecraft is a bit more difficult to point in the right direction without it.but i get what youre sayin.im probably bein a bit too fussy.its a flaw.i'll just let the player shoot off into space and tell the rest of the party they never see him again lol one player down ten to go!

Yeah I think this is one of those things where you can explain to the character the issues he’s going to have with that, but if he REALLY wants to do it and without some crazy rolls he’s pretty much SOL.


Daniel Stoker

i mean i could modify stuff.i am the GM.But if i mod something up,im gonna mod something else down.
But i guess its not a big thing.I got 10 other rifts supers with crazy powers.theyre all gonna cause probs for me in one way or another.this guy just basically wantin to be a spaceship is the least of those problems.i mean,hes really not going to be able to do anything but be a vehicle.and ive got people who are gonna cause me a headache EVERY single moment of play.

Eh, I'd let him do it but just make sure he knows how hard it will be and let the other players help him navigate, it's a good reason for them to work together as a team.


Daniel Stoker

"Don't you have an operator's manuel in this glove compartment?"
<<"HEY! DID I GIVE YOU PERMISSION TO GO THROUGH MY POCKETS?! PUT THAT BACK!">>

taalismn wrote:"Don't you have an operator's manuel in this glove compartment?"
<<"HEY! DID I GIVE YOU PERMISSION TO GO THROUGH MY POCKETS?! PUT THAT BACK!">>

Is this the wrong moment for a "your inside me huhuhuhu"?

and if techno form allows you to turn into a machine you've encountered...i'd probably houserule and allow him to do a space craft with the bells and whistles...assuming he has encountered one with the bells and whistles (or at least the FTL, figuring out the coordinates to aim at however...again iffy, maybe give up a minor for the calculation ability to do it yourself?). But that's making a lot of assumptions and kinda goes with the "How TV do you want your powers?". I mean, technically we have seen alien star fighters that can rain lasers and plasma torpedoes onto our foes...but would you agree that would allow you to transform into one? In some media it would be certain...and fun, other cases it's "broken" so...what do you think would be fun?

iteration27 wrote:hmm im not sure about rocket fists.i think escape velocity is about 25000mph so to reach escape velocity with rocket fists he'd need to be way over lvl 15,and he couldnt really use it in vehicle form,so couldnt take anyone with him.techno form is the basis of his idea,as is being a party vehicle of sorts,so any power used would need to be useable in vehicle form.but as a techno form he wont need space survival powers as its included in techno form.
I didnt see any anti-grav flight power,where was that?
superluminal flight is probably the best bet sofar,but he wasnt keen on it,as it cant go any slower.but it would achieve escape velocity and get him to the moon in a matter of seconds.
the idea of becoming an actual spacecraft is still on the table,but as the power description only mentions turning into conventional vehicles and doesnt mention spacecraft,we're not sure if the any vehicle description applies.

oh do you mean anti-gravity flight (self) under gravity manipulation? yeah that we DID look at,but he didnt want gravity manipulation.i guess i could possibly assign it as a minor power,but it is a bit slow.although i could allow him to fly at his normal speed in vehicle form,using the gravity flight for altitude(basically transforming to a vehicle with an anti-grav drive) getting around the spacecraft issue.but then he'd be limited to his normal speeds in space,taking forever to get anywhere lol so he'd still need an extra power to make him go faster than a few MACH.

I guess i could allow him to become a space fighter craft,but he'd have to see one first,and they're not exactly common on RIFTS earth.

"Escape velocity" can be 1mph if you can maintain the thrust long enough. It is a ballistic trajectory concept. Rocket Fists specifically mentions spaceflight.

There are multiple sources of antigrav flight, but that is one of them.

There is also the minor power flight:space (galaxy guide p. 219) if you want a power based reason for flight in space. He wouldn't need one for in atmosphere flight. If a jet can fly at 700mph from the technoform power that is enough to get you off the ground.

Nothing in the power description woukd rule out a space shuttle form, so I'd say the any vehicle means any vehicle.

iteration27 wrote:i mean i could modify stuff.i am the GM.But if i mod something up,im gonna mod something else down.
But i guess its not a big thing.I got 10 other rifts supers with crazy powers.theyre all gonna cause probs for me in one way or another.this guy just basically wantin to be a spaceship is the least of those problems.i mean,hes really not going to be able to do anything but be a vehicle.and ive got people who are gonna cause me a headache EVERY single moment of play.

I sure wanna hear a breakdown of the complete cast. Been running a pair of technoform/aps light characters for decades myself. In an odd coincidence I added them to the Hero Exchange barely a week ago.

funis always a factor.the point IS fun,which is why i try not to place limits on what my characters can get upto.the characters are the part of a shipment of splugorth slaves that were liberated by the characters in another GM's game.i was told about the adventure and asked what happened to this "cargo",but the GM hadnt written any of that up as the games characters ended up being captured themselves and the slaves just disappeared into the background,whisked away by the underground.so i decided to run a game with those escaped slaves.
The idea is that they established a small secret community,where they try to hide their powers and remain low key for fear that the splugorth will find and recapture them.there was about 80 of them and they established a small settlement in the west and set about trying to build a life for themselves.limiting their contact with other settlements and the use of their powers.
The players themselves are a group of these mutants that have grown restless and want more.to see the world and explore and make something of themselves.theyre sick of hiding and living in fear.becoming disruptive members of the community as a result.theyve been asked to leave by the community leaders.
and so they are released into the world to do whatever they like.no set plans from me.ive got stories and set pieces that i'll insert in places.but im just lettin them run amuck in the world to see what they will make of themselves.the sky is the limit.they can even split up and go their separate ways.if they do splinter into smaller groups,i'll run alternating stories,where the players run NPCs if their particular characters are in a different group.so they'll all get turns running their own characters on some nights then get a change of pace with whatever NPCs on other nights.
I do just want the players to have fun with their characters and to explore the world at their leisure,making whatever impact,large or small,that they like,without having to shepard them around meticulously detailed adventures or wondering why my work went awry,when they go off on ridiculous tangents.
I do tend to get hung up on rules and specific things though.especially in character creation.so im going to have to learn to relax a little in this regard.especially with palladium.and just have fun myself.

so yeah,the suggestions so far have decided me on a course of action for the character.people seem in agreeance that he can shipshift,so i'll allow it.i'll take necessary navigation skills and make them a power.and i'll allow instrumentation and propulsion as part of his shipshifting.

a breakdown of the cast? i'll have to that later.all the character writeups are indoors.i dont think all of them are complete either.some are missing a power or two and some are missing an OCC.i think im gonna relax the OCC limitations for rifts supers though.i think its bizarre that a vagabond could gain powers from being bathed in weird alien radiation but a merc cant? doesnt make sense to me.

ok ive looked over what ive got of the characters and it seems i was mistaken...all powers accounted for.its just a couple missing OCCs and bearing in mind that ive decided to relax the OCC restrictions,some of the OCCs might change.
so lets see what we got here then.

first guy is an operator with the powers multiple selves/dimension door/item reduction/sensory orb/multi tasking/speed tasking.im sure he'll stay an operator.hes expressed a desire for collecting gear through both theft and salvage,aswell as starting his own business.

second guy is a professional gambler with the powers X PP/lightning reflexes/blur/heightened touch/heightened balance/targeting.obvious combat character,might change to a gunslinger or something,lookin at his powers.hes expressed a desire to shoot people and make money.simple enough lol

third guy is a wilderness scout with the powers animal brother/beast master/feral/adapt to environment/matter expulsion bone/summon large animals.hes expressed a desire for exploration in general,to see the megaverse and experience as much life as possible.hes described himself as impulsive and inquisitive so i can see him jumping through random rifts alot.

fourth guy is a body fixer with the powers APS blood/absorb biomass/merge biomass/bio aura/living anatomy/alter physical body.yeah,this guys a bit wonky i think.wants to become lord of the vampires and bring about the demise of the the "so called dr reid"...not sure if hes serious though.

fifth guy has the powers of flying force disc/shadow cloak/shadow molding/X PP/cloaking/iron will.hasnt settled on an OCC yet,but think he'll go with some kind of warrior.wants all his powers except X PP to work only when shadow cloaked and for his force disk power to be a shadow disc instead.fair enough.comes across as a kind of shadow ninja type.another obvious combat character.hasnt expressed any particular wants,so i guess hes easy for now.

sixth guy has the powers of teleportation/ectoplasmic armour/inhabitation/advanced sight/x ray vision/paranormal vision.hasnt settled on an OCC yet but did mention being a rogue scholar,but might take a combat OCC now.obvious ghost hunting,assassin vibe to this guy.wants to fight evil and conquer madhaven? havent read through that yet so cant really comment.but theres alot of ghosts there apparently,so i guess it makes sense.

seventh guy is a rogue scientist with the powers AA mustled/AA crustacean/AA insect/feral/lightning reflexes/X PE.wants to raise mutant awareness and breed his own race of super mutants"must claim the lonestar facility for myself!" was exclaimed rather enthusiastically.again,a good combat build,mega amount of skills,abilities for advantage in any environment.but another player who might be just a little bit crazy.

the eighth guy(girl in this case) is a saloon girl with the powers tentacles/SN PS/life leech/X PP/X PE/resin.creepy little monster girl.sweet on the outside,icky on the inside.shes not an experienced roleplayer,but says she wants to be famous.i see more infamy in her future.

the ninth guy is a saloon bum with the powers of demon fists/alter dimensional fabric/immortality/paranormal vision/X ME/X PE.wanted a kind of demon queller type character.interested in taking it back to the splugorth and any other intelligence that wants some.but mostly he'll go where the booze is.but would like to take a trip to the demon dimension.hasnt been.heard they're nice to visit.

the tenth guy has the powers of APS electricity/energy absorbtion/gateways/sensory orb/spectrum vision/lightning reflexes.hasnt chosen an OCC yet.this guys more typical of what i was expecting people to build to be honest.he actually has a desire to get into the mercenary scene,make a name for himself,acquire property and maybe start his own small kingdom in the future.

the eleventh guy is the shipshifter.obviously not finished yet.

so not really what i'd call a typical bunch of supers.very low on the flying and blasting front.not alot of APS as a group either(i would have expected more).a mix of ambition and indifference(although im not sure if some of the ambitions are serious or not).a good number of combat orientated power sets,a good cross section of skills based on the OCCs sofar.No one individual is obviously a problem,but considered as a group,they could cause quite a headache.

Sounds like a good group. If first player wanted to start a mobile black market weapons depot he'd sound just like one of the guys I run with a lot. (particularly if you replaced his tasking mutations with inhabitation)... I'm also frequently surprised how often folks avoid the APS powers, but with so much to choose from the other possibilities do seem like a lot more fun. I like seeing the good solid themes for each of them. Team has a real nostalgia to it even if its twice as big as any group I've ever been in. Also dig the new term for player 11's build... 'shipshifter'. This going to be an on line endeavor or in person?

people really avoid APS alot? i wouldnt have thought that.Its a new group i joined recently,with the addition of my GF and an old gaming buddy of mine.I wont be startin the game for a few months yet,but yes,it will be in person.I havent roleplayed in over ten years though,let alone GM'd and its a new system for me aswell.But the group has apparently been playing rifts since it came out,so they're all pretty experienced and promise not to make things too difficult for me...but players just cant help themselves,in my experience lol.most of them have never done a supers game,so were up for it.But i do have alot of work and reading ahead of me.Like i said,im not running it like a normal set campaign,but i still have to put together all the bits im gonna drop here and there.I'm also gonna have to come up with a butt load of NPCs and while im doin that im playin in the regular GMs game,so im getting some firsthand experience.

Personally I adore the APS powers, so if you need an eleventh I'd be in.


Daniel Stoker

Might be something that only happens in my group. The lure of so many other major powers seems to push APS right out the bottom of the list.

actually you'd be number 12 and i think ive got enough players.back in the day i only had 6 players to contend with,so i think eleven is quite enough lol

id definitely go for an APS power myself.theres so many of them and they offer a good amount of secondary abilities.some of them arent written especially well though,thats a fixable problem.i like the idea of APS shadow or APS lava.but yeah,theres alot of powers and possible combos without APS.

one thing i do like about my players characters is that in general they seem to have avoided puttin together power combos that make little sense,just to be super powerful.all the characters make a certain kind of sense.none of them,individually,are ubermega hard and they have some kind of theme.

But then,being new to this game,i might be missing the power of some of the characters.personally i think the operator,the teleporting guy and the electric APS guy are the most potentially problematic,with the professional gambler being the most dangerous combatant. but we'll see.

I've always been big fans of APS:Ice and APS: Mercury, but yeah there's a lot you can do with many of them, especially if you've got a few complimentary powers to plug into them.


Daniel Stoker

yeah mercury is a nice one.so is silver from AU.i was lookin at a vampire huntin HU demigod with APS silver.makes me wonder though,why they've done demigods and other immortals differently in HU compared to the other settings.i mean accordin to the conversion book,supernatural creatures/creatures of magic cant have super abilites and dont need them as theyre pretty much superbeings anyway.and they convert right over.so why just do them differently.unless its to save on reprinting.
would you just use immortals as printed in PU2 or use them as printed in other books.or both? and is a demi god from pantheons a creature of magic? as in vampire kingdoms revised a supernatural being is classified as being different to a creature of magic,the difference being supernatural beings are immortal and creatures of magic are mortal.so demi gods,havin a finite lifespan cant be supernatural,but their god parent is.and im sure ive seen other supernatural creatures that are mortal(i think) so im a little confused.

sorry,that was a little off topic.so APS ice or mercury...how would you complete that character? might use it as an NPC if i like it.

infact if anyone has got any ideas for(non munchkin) NPCs it would save me a bit of work.im lookin at puttin together about 30 NPCs for if and when my group splinters.they dont have to be supers.they just have to be within the power level of the player characters i mentioned earlier.

If you're pulling more from Heroes Unlimited for the character with powers and the like I'd lean to using the Immortal class from PU2 as it was more designed for that kind of thing.


Daniel Stoker

oh of course.like i said,pantheons demi gods cant actually have superpowers.Im just tryin to decide with that potential character,whether or not it would be appropriate as a rifts character,strictly speaking.im not sure i'd use HU demigods or immortals in rifts as those roles are already filled by rifts equivalents and are built differently.if i did decide to use HU demigods,then i'd probably replace the rifts versions with them.of course,i do realize with the megaverse being what it is that the two different kinds can exist together.
although i do feel,with their super powers that HU immortals are much more godlike,in comparison to mere mortals,than their rifts counterparts are.i mean,in rifts battles between gods are often described as lasting days or weeks,but thats probably because,despite their vast amounts of MDC/PPE/ISP,the scope of their powers(except for their deific stuff) is the same as mortals.they use all the same spells and psionics,with only the occasional special power,with the same increments of range/duration/damage.meaning really,they're not any more powerful than a mortal.their strength is mostly in the range of abilities they possess and their ability to basically just outlast most opponents.I think god level power should see some kind of increase,like 3x the range/duration/damage compared to mortals.when a god casts a spell,it should bloomin well be god like.but im not sure if that would upset the balance of things much.same with intelligences(maybe more so)

I dont even know how i got onto gods lol

iteration27 wrote:oh of course.like i said,pantheons demi gods cant actually have superpowers.Im just tryin to decide with that potential character,whether or not it would be appropriate as a rifts character,strictly speaking.im not sure i'd use HU demigods or immortals in rifts as those roles are already filled by rifts equivalents and are built differently.if i did decide to use HU demigods,then i'd probably replace the rifts versions with them.of course,i do realize with the megaverse being what it is that the two different kinds can exist together.
although i do feel,with their super powers that HU immortals are much more godlike,in comparison to mere mortals,than their rifts counterparts are.i mean,in rifts battles between gods are often described as lasting days or weeks,but thats probably because,despite their vast amounts of MDC/PPE/ISP,the scope of their powers(except for their deific stuff) is the same as mortals.they use all the same spells and psionics,with only the occasional special power,with the same increments of range/duration/damage.meaning really,they're not any more powerful than a mortal.their strength is mostly in the range of abilities they possess and their ability to basically just outlast most opponents.I think god level power should see some kind of increase,like 3x the range/duration/damage compared to mortals.when a god casts a spell,it should bloomin well be god like.but im not sure if that would upset the balance of things much.same with intelligences(maybe more so)

I dont even know how i got onto gods lol

Palladium does a poor job of scaling many things.

The Demi-God RCC from Pantheons spells out forbidden OCCs in both Rifts and Heroes Unlimited, and regarding Heroes Unlimited it only forbids them from taking Full conversion Cyborg, robot, alien, magic, or mutant animal. Therefore, they can be either a mutant or an experiment and thus would most definitley get super-powers. They would also choose one power from under Godlings. They also then get one extra power, similar to that of the godly father or mother (and that is beyond a shadow of a doubt rules as written, as it clearly says "besides the powers listed below" and one of those common powers is choosing one from the godling list; though of course the whole thing was ultimately at GM discretion). That extra power may or may not come from the Godlings list; it is a bit vague. I know that for HU we interpreted it as one extra major power (or two extra minors if that better represented the aspect of the parent deity better). And since you could have Rifts native super-heroes we used them in HU as well (this was all long before we got our hands on Powers Unlimited 2).

I know that one of my characters who I thought was just an experiment was later revealed to be a demi-god experiment by the GM (unbeknownst to me until then!).

The moral of the story was that the demi-god actually presented better opportunities for a munchkin than the Godling did (just take power #10 for magic and know all spells of all levels up to your current one plus have the abilities of a Ley Line Walker, Shifter, or Warlock).

On the other hand, depending on which immortal you are looking at the pantheons version can actually pale in comparison in other categories. If you do use the pantheons version, I suggest that you use PEx10 for their MDC instead of PEx5. An HU demi-god gets 1d6x10+60+PE+2d6 HP and 3d6X10 SDC, then combines those and doubles it to for the MDC total in Rifts. That means that even a minimum roll for PE (4 due to a 1d4 bonus) and min rolls for HP and SDC (81 HP and 30 sdc) you'd have 222 MDC minimum (and could get as high as 692) at level 1. The pantheons demigod would need a PE of 38 to have a chance of breaking 200 with the PEx5 rule.

Without a doubt we've had some mutant demigods in our campaigns before.

well i hate to do it,dreicunan,as i prefer to be the agreeable sort.but i heavily disagree with you assessment of the pantheons demi-god and how many people,in my opinion,abuse it.
It can NOT get super powers.as stated earlier,the revised CB 1 explicitly forbids supernatural,creatures of magic,men of magic from having super abilites.it also forbids borgs,juicers,crazies,robots,psychic RCCs,monster races.It also states most natural MDC races(with very few GM approved exceptions) cannot take superpowers.
it says this on page 43 at the end of the rifts superhumans section.under notes.
As for the ability to take a demigod power PLUS a power of the god parent? well,its not clear.I'd say no.The confusion i think arises from the end of the fluff text sayin they get a parental power.But its fluff text.fluff text often demonstrate things that arent true or possible.ive seen many arguments over something fluff text has seemingly endorsed,which is not actually written down as tangible rules in rules related sections.fluff is written with artistic license and IN MY OPINION (im definitely not layin down the law here),should be disregarded if it contradicts the RAW or adds to them without tangible clarification.so IN MY OPINION,pantheons demigods only get the powers as listed under the abilities section of the class.the ability they choose is the ability representing their parent ie my dad is zurvan so i take the powers of a temporal mage as my demigod ability.I also point out that godlings dont get this parental power and they are even closer to their parent in terms of divinity and bloodline.
a demi god can easily end up as or more powerful than a godling if you cherry pick God powers and super abilities.i dont believe this is whats intended.but what do I know? I havent been playin long.
And just to close,i'd like to say again,that is just my opinion.Im sure alot of people have a different one.Im just going by the rules that i can see.
The HU immortals are much more powerful,but then,they're designed as mega super heroes.I personally would only allow them in a HU game.

iteration27 wrote:As for the ability to take a demigod power PLUS a power of the god parent?

I'd say that's less fluff text and more a clearly stated "the GM will have to work with this because it varies by parent and GM call". This also clearly states the power is included as an addition to the below stats. And I think a Demigod gets 1 "Parent Power" while the godling doesn't is because a godling is more personally divine, their powers are their own while the demigod is getting them from the divine parent. They're the rank and file "really minor gods and/or divine beings" of the world and less a case of "My daddy is Zeus!" more like "I work for Zeus's Third General!"

but that's my take

fair enough take.
But i also disagree that it clearly states an additional power.if it was clear,it wouldnt be in contention.
What im saying is it seems to clarify what im saying in the first part of the text, then clarifies what youre saying in the second part.But its all contained within the flavour/fluff text.I tend to take whats written in the rules of a class over whats written in the preceeding text,for reasons previously stated.
If the power was meant to be an extra power in addition to whats printed under abilities,then,quite simply the extra parent ability would also be printed in the abilities section.but it isnt.So either the second part of the fluff text is wrong or the second ability was accidentally omitted from the ACTUAL abilities section.which is more likely? seein as its palladium,both.which leaves it completely open to interpretation and debate.

The demigod entry in pantheons does state up front that a mutant could be given demigod or even godling status, so as a guide of whats possible I'm inclined to say godlings with mutations is AOK even though the book doesnt explicitly state that one must occur before the other in a particular order. As a gm I'm personally ok with mutant godlings and feel like the printed material supports the possibility. As with all games though I think its fair for the gm to set the limits on what they're personally willing to let pass.

I do think its funny what the system says works and doesnt as if it mattered knowing that there seem to be so many workarounds. 'a bionic addition to your demigod will interfere with your powers... but nothing stopping a demigod from picking up a suit of power armor or a heroes unlimited exoskeletal 'robot' suit or find a magical weapon or object. Given enough campaign time a character could mix and match heroes unlimited power categories all over the place so I feel like limiting combinations of choices 'because of RAW' makes no sense (especially with palladium), while limiting combinations of choices because 'seriously dude, lets dial it back a notch and see how it goes' makes plenty of sense.

I certainly wouldnt want a player to 'build a character that combined stuff right out of the gate'... I'd want that to happen through in game activities... 'I'm a mutant who wants do become a demigod' kinda stuff. But even that is less about whats on the page in the manuals and more about personal preference. In practice though I'll say I've let players make mutant godlings right outta the gate because I like players to be able to discover that sometimes more power means less fun, which... can... teach them to self regulate.

no of course.I think its fine for GMs to allow whatever.I was merely stating my own feelings on the matter and the Rules that i could see.But anything goes as long as its fun and agreed on,is the be all rule in palladium.
i actually really hate disagreeing with people,but it happens.although i dont disagree without reason.with the demi-gods "extra" ability,it really should be included under the the demi-gods natural abilities and not just mentioned in the text preceeding the actual class write up.i cant think of any other classes,off the top of my head,that include MAJOR class abilities only in the preceeding text,without including them in the actual class write up.but i might have missed some.i havent read everything yet.it might not be an isolated case.

and of course i do see some things as abuse of the system,like giving already powerful supernatural creatures extra powers that are usually the province and defining characteristic of other kinds of characters.and i see the inclusion of the rules forbidding such unions as both necessary and balancing.But then i can see how players can become jaded,bored with the power levels already at their command and the need to build power levels ever upward,to inject extra life and sparkle into a character that might become stale.But i see continually jacking up on extra power to be only a stop gap measure.the familiar malaise returning more and more quickly.Better to start afresh,i say.
but thats not for everyone.and combining all this stuff together works wonders for some people and i wont condemn another groups or players style of play,if its what makes them happy and keeps them interested.
All i will say(if i can actaully stop typing) is that if its a question of ACTUAL rules i will tend to go with what is ACTUALLY presented in the appropriate sections.and if players have problems with anything,then i will bow to majority rule for the sake of fun.but i'll be grumpy on the inside.
i gotta stop gettin carried away,my fingers are gonna get worn to stumps.

iteration27 wrote:well i hate to do it,dreicunan,as i prefer to be the agreeable sort.but i heavily disagree with you assessment of the pantheons demi-god and how many people,in my opinion,abuse it.
It can NOT get super powers.as stated earlier,the revised CB 1 explicitly forbids supernatural,creatures of magic,men of magic from having super abilites.it also forbids borgs,juicers,crazies,robots,psychic RCCs,monster races.It also states most natural MDC races(with very few GM approved exceptions) cannot take superpowers.
it says this on page 43 at the end of the rifts superhumans section.under notes.

Yeah, the original CB1 had that blurb, too. Then Conversion Book 2 came out and made it very clear that the Demi-God RCC could most definitely have super-powers by spelling out that the Demi-God can pick "any O.C.C. that fits his human/D-bee background and interests with the following exceptions," and lists the exceptions that I cited. Mutants and experiments are not on the list, and thus can be taken by a Demi-God. CB1r was published in 2002, and then Powers Unlimited 2 was published in 2004 with explicitly supernatural Immortal beings who also have super-powers (as well as possibly having both super-powers and psi!). Each time that prohibition was put into writing, it was subsequently contradicted.

iteration27 wrote:As for the ability to take a demigod power PLUS a power of the god parent? well,its not clear.I'd say no.The confusion i think arises from the end of the fluff text sayin they get a parental power.But its fluff text.fluff text often demonstrate things that arent true or possible.ive seen many arguments over something fluff text has seemingly endorsed,which is not actually written down as tangible rules in rules related sections.fluff is written with artistic license and IN MY OPINION (im definitely not layin down the law here),should be disregarded if it contradicts the RAW or adds to them without tangible clarification.so IN MY OPINION,pantheons demigods only get the powers as listed under the abilities section of the class.the ability they choose is the ability representing their parent ie my dad is zurvan so i take the powers of a temporal mage as my demigod ability.I also point out that godlings dont get this parental power and they are even closer to their parent in terms of divinity and bloodline.

Well, you can hold that opinion, but doing so requires ignoring the plain meaning of the text. "In general, beside the powers listed below, most demigods will have ONE extra power, similar to that of the godly father or mother." One of the powers listed below is "Natural Abilities (all demigods): Fire and cold resistant (does half damage), regenerates 1D6X5 M.D.C. every minute. And select any one power from those listed under godling." So all demi-gods get that. In general, they then also get one extra power, which cannot be the chosen power because ALL demi-gods get that, whereas the extra power is only received in general, which one only says if not every demi-god does.

Ok i think youre either missing the point of what im saying or ignoring it entirely.which is fine.you dont have to do things my way.but repeating what i already disagreed with and explained why i disagreed with doesnt change my opinion.yes ok i understand what youre saying,but ive already had an argument before with someone about whether or not a POWER CATEGORY actually constitutes an OCC anyway,so thats clearly something else we disagree on.however you read conversion book 2,its invalidated by by conversion book 1 revised.PU doesnt contradict or invalidate what CB1r says.it presents a demigod equivalent,built using HU rules and powers.it by no means signifies that supernaturals everywhere in every setting can now have superpowers.but its up to you if you choose to see it that way.i wont try to convince you otherwise.

as for god powers.like i said,youre not reading or ignoring my point,that Im ignoring the Text you refer to,as its not,in my opinion valid(an opinion i in no way claim to be right)...i dont see it as valid because,like i already said,the extra god power should be listed with the rest of the abilities,like every other class i have so far read.

Now i did already make it clear that i simply disagree with you and that it was my opinion and that i was only quoting the rules which i had read and how i understood them to read.But you seem to have,come at me,in a way that i find ever so slightly confrontational.which i feel is unnecessary.like i said,i already heard your argument,which youve repeated,and disagreed with it.i stated why i disagreed and expressed it was my opinion.why do you feel that you need to convince me to your way of thinking? is there not room on this forum for both our opinions?

Edit: actually its 3am here and im tired and maybe im reading aggression where there is none.I apologise if i in any way offended you.Im being told not to be so cranky.I feel we just have a very clear difference of opinion on this subject,which wont change,because we're probably as stubborn as eachother.But i will repeat.everything i said is just my opinion and i in no way claim my opinion is more right or valid than anyone elses.

iteration27 wrote:Ok i think youre either missing the point of what im saying or ignoring it entirely.which is fine.you dont have to do things my way.but repeating what i already disagreed with and explained why i disagreed with doesnt change my opinion.yes ok i understand what youre saying,but ive already had an argument before with someone about whether or not a POWER CATEGORY actually constitutes an OCC anyway,so thats clearly something else we disagree on.however you read conversion book 2,its invalidated by by conversion book 1 revised.PU doesnt contradict or invalidate what CB1r says.it presents a demigod equivalent,built using HU rules and powers.it by no means signifies that supernaturals everywhere in every setting can now have superpowers.but its up to you if you choose to see it that way.i wont try to convince you otherwise.

Regarding OCC vs Power Category: CB2 clearly treats power categories as OCCs when it list a bunch of power categories as OCCs that the Demi-God RCC can't take.

And I'll once again point out that the original CB had the same basic language about supernatural beings (and creatures of magic and so on) not being able to have super-powers. So, since the Demi-God RCC in the next book clearly could have those super-powers, we are left with how to understand that. I'd suggest that you read the Demi-god RCC from Pantheons as being an exception to that general rule, because otherwise you have to argue that the writers of CB2 were telling people that they could make mutant or experiment demi-gods but without any powers, which seems a bit of a stretch!

iteration27 wrote:If the power was meant to be an extra power in addition to whats printed under abilities,then,quite simply the extra parent ability would also be printed in the abilities section.but it isnt.So either the second part of the fluff text is wrong or the second ability was accidentally omitted from the ACTUAL abilities section.which is more likely? seein as its palladium,both.which leaves it completely open to interpretation and debate.

I disagree that it would be printed in the actual abilities section because the wording says that it is in addition to the following stated abilities. If it said that and then stated that the demi god got 1 godling power and 1 parent power in the following description then i'd be saying they have 2 parent powers...Which means neither the preceding text or the stats is wrong, just that they are incomplete and really could have been written better.

Like say lose the preceeding text and actually insert a paragraph of explanation into the R.C.C.s ability write up where it belongs.

That all said the completely open to interpretation and debate seems to be a goal in palladium design..."this doesn't quite make sense, should we leave it in?" "Sure! they can interpret however they feel best and we'll keep quite on it not to influence them".

im saying it SHOULD be in the abilities section and not in the place that it is.Its an ability of the race,put it where its supposed to be.so yes it poorly written.i got another complaint about how its written,but i'll get to that.i got sank more important to say first.
im going to concede on the godpower...i looked at the only two demigods i could find.Gilgamesh,in the pantheons book doesnt appear to have a god power.i rubbed my hands together in glee at that,hahaha proof!!! no,in splynn the demigod white feather has a weather sensing power,that isnt standard,although she doesnt seem to have the common godling ability in addition.so i could argue that shes got the weather sensing as the godling ability.But im not going to.it will cause more argument.and im going to cite it as proof of the god power.so thats settled.
I'm still not sold on super powers.the occ section relating to HU list categories that cant be taken.one of those seems to be magic,although later in the same section they tend towards magic.(thats my other complaint) typical palladium inconsistency.the class is inconsistent and poorly written.initially i would assume that Dgods can have super abilities in HU,although personally i'd balk at them being mutants or experiments.but in a HU game superpowers are reasonable.Not in a rifts game.they clearly show what classes cant be taken for a rifts game and power categories arent a normal part of rifts.they may,in HU be analogous to an OCC,but they dont exist in rifts unless ported over.In rifts to be superhuman,you look in the conversion book.and in there the rules are quite clear.the rules are all kiinds of compatible so its easy to see why someone would,in rifts,make a demigod and give it superpowers.but really thats a HU demigod.disagree all you like,thats how i see it.Now we have PU2.a heroes unlimited sourcebook.not rifts,not a conversion book.a heroes unlimited sourcebook.
So in there we have demigods and other immortals who have,in contravention of CB1r,super abilities.But they are heroes unlimited.specifically.they use superpowers to express the supernatural powers that these immortals have.just like other races and classes throughout rifts have use superpowers,copy and pasted to represent abilities that arent "superpowers" but racial abilities.
These PU2 demis are HUs version of demigods and are built using HU rules.they are not Rifts demis and do not allow supernaturals across the board to have superpowers.they are a specific exception,in a different setting.They replace demis in HU.unless,like i said Gms decide otherwise.

This is my opinion.you cant tell me im wrong.you cant state that what youre saying is correct.only the writer can do that.I think my view is perfectly reasonable.i dont think you need to continue trying to convince me otherwise,as it really is a matter of opinion and interpretation.

the two demis are not the same things,they exist in different game settings and do not use the same rules.otherwise in HU you can just say that your superpowered mega immortal is also going to take leyline walker magic as his godling power and zeus's lightning bolts as his parent power.because all demigods use the same rules.they dont.Heroes demis represent these abilities with superpowers.they are an exception to the CB1r rule,because they have superpowers specifically listed under them,and do not set a precedent for pre existing classes and races.The CB1r rule makes it clear that supernaturals and creatures of magic,can not have superpowers,with the exception of a pantheons demigod being made for a HU game.if its made for a rifts game,the rule is they cant according to the CB1r rules.
Its worth noting that demons in AU,which is for heroes unlimited,can have superpowers,but i dont see anyone claiming all demons have the option to walk around with superpowers.also PU2 gives demons,dragons and a whole variety of supernaturals "powers".am i to understand from this that its a power grabbing free for all for supernaturals across the megaverse? no.again,powers are used to represent the usual supernatural abilities that these creatures would usually have elsewhere and dont represent members of those races as printed in other books.
maybe i should have stated that i was making a distinction between how things are handled in different settings,but i think it would not have made a difference.

so yeah,i've conceded one argument.by simply looking up corroborating evidence.yet i hold firm to my second,as its a matter of opinion and interpretation and i simply disagree with the opposing argument.

iteration27 wrote:i hold firm to my second,as its a matter of opinion and interpretation and i simply disagree with the opposing argument.

Oh always man, this is a game, apparently even the game designer house rules in his home games to better fit what he wants to do and game masters are encouraged to do the same. We all are just expressing our opinions and point of view.


The golden rule of gaming is "If its not fun, don't play"

iteration27 wrote:im saying it SHOULD be in the abilities section and not in the place that it is.Its an ability of the race,put it where its supposed to be.so yes it poorly written.i got another complaint about how its written,but i'll get to that.i got sank more important to say first.
im going to concede on the godpower...i looked at the only two demigods i could find.Gilgamesh,in the pantheons book doesnt appear to have a god power.i rubbed my hands together in glee at that,hahaha proof!!! no,in splynn the demigod white feather has a weather sensing power,that isnt standard,although she doesnt seem to have the common godling ability in addition.so i could argue that shes got the weather sensing as the godling ability.But im not going to.it will cause more argument.and im going to cite it as proof of the god power.so thats settled.
I'm still not sold on super powers.the occ section relating to HU list categories that cant be taken.one of those seems to be magic,although later in the same section they tend towards magic.(thats my other complaint) typical palladium inconsistency.the class is inconsistent and poorly written.initially i would assume that Dgods can have super abilities in HU,although personally i'd balk at them being mutants or experiments.but in a HU game superpowers are reasonable.Not in a rifts game.they clearly show what classes cant be taken for a rifts game and power categories arent a normal part of rifts.they may,in HU be analogous to an OCC,but they dont exist in rifts unless ported over.In rifts to be superhuman,you look in the conversion book.and in there the rules are quite clear.the rules are all kiinds of compatible so its easy to see why someone would,in rifts,make a demigod and give it superpowers.but really thats a HU demigod.disagree all you like,thats how i see it.Now we have PU2.a heroes unlimited sourcebook.not rifts,not a conversion book.a heroes unlimited sourcebook.
So in there we have demigods and other immortals who have,in contravention of CB1r,super abilities.But they are heroes unlimited.specifically.they use superpowers to express the supernatural powers that these immortals have.just like other races and classes throughout rifts have use superpowers,copy and pasted to represent abilities that arent "superpowers" but racial abilities.
These PU2 demis are HUs version of demigods and are built using HU rules.they are not Rifts demis and do not allow supernaturals across the board to have superpowers.they are a specific exception,in a different setting.They replace demis in HU.unless,like i said Gms decide otherwise.

This is my opinion.you cant tell me im wrong.you cant state that what youre saying is correct.only the writer can do that.I think my view is perfectly reasonable.i dont think you need to continue trying to convince me otherwise,as it really is a matter of opinion and interpretation.

the two demis are not the same things,they exist in different game settings and do not use the same rules.otherwise in HU you can just say that your superpowered mega immortal is also going to take leyline walker magic as his godling power and zeus's lightning bolts as his parent power.because all demigods use the same rules.they dont.Heroes demis represent these abilities with superpowers.they are an exception to the CB1r rule,because they have superpowers specifically listed under them,and do not set a precedent for pre existing classes and races.The CB1r rule makes it clear that supernaturals and creatures of magic,can not have superpowers,with the exception of a pantheons demigod being made for a HU game.if its made for a rifts game,the rule is they cant according to the CB1r rules.
Its worth noting that demons in AU,which is for heroes unlimited,can have superpowers,but i dont see anyone claiming all demons have the option to walk around with superpowers.also PU2 gives demons,dragons and a whole variety of supernaturals "powers".am i to understand from this that its a power grabbing free for all for supernaturals across the megaverse? no.again,powers are used to represent the usual supernatural abilities that these creatures would usually have elsewhere and dont represent members of those races as printed in other books.
maybe i should have stated that i was making a distinction between how things are handled in different settings,but i think it would not have made a difference.

so yeah,i've conceded one argument.by simply looking up corroborating evidence.yet i hold firm to my second,as its a matter of opinion and interpretation and i simply disagree with the opposing argument.

Supers from HU have canonically shown up in Rifts (and in one case then become a member of the Order of the White Rose). Is your argument really that a pantheons demi-god who starts in the HU universe and gets rifted to Rifts Earth no longer has super-powers?

I really can't emphasize enough that the no superpowers for supernatural beings was already present in CB1 unrevised, and yet the Pantheons Demigod was able to take superpowers. CB1r did not revise anything in this regard, so the argument that it overrides CB2 only holds water if CB1 unrevised preepmtively overrode it.

If you want them to succeed, make sure they get enough warning, or carry sensors good enough to alert them, to the counter-debris ring. Cloaking or no, that will wreak their life. That cloaking idea is solid though, will keep them from being picked off from space or the ground while they look for a thin spot. Notably the poles where it is more killer satellite than ring would make a reliable entry-exit point, without feeling like they have complete run of the place.

no my argument is not that a HU demigod loses his powers in rifts.again,youre not reading or understanding what im saying.Im sayin that superpowers as a function of a demigod are a HU thing and that he'd have to be built FOR HU to have them.But built as a rifts character,he would not.To have your superpowered demi in rifts,he would have to be rifted there.I also dont take NPCs as canon.they are often built as exceptions to the RAW and in my opinion do not establish canon.infact in the Q&A in one of the rifters,it was said that players build characters using the rules,and NPCs do not.so citing NPC's as examples of canon is incorrect,as they are not.and once again,i have not stated that powered characters cannot show up in rifts.just that supernaturals,in the rifts setting.cannot have superpowers,unless stated otherwise under the character/race description.

I have to state,that from my point of view,CB 1 and CB1r are primarily(but not solely) conversion books for rifts,that the no superpowered supernaturals proviso is to cover rifts characters. and that a sourcebook for HU does not alter that for rifts.The pantheons demigod does itself differentiate between HU and rifts in the available occ section and power categories are not rifts OCCs.youre looking at the whole palladium megaverse as one setting with completely interchangeable rules.im not.they are different settings with differing rules.yes,the same core set of rules,but with differences.Im talking about characters built specifically for the RIFTS setting.

I am enjoying the argument immensely lol but we clearly have a fundamentally different outlook on the game.like i said,we're both stubborn.But im not trying to convince you mate.im not sayin youre wrong at all.well i am,but only in regards to what i think.I could very well be wrong myself,but feel that my opinion is totally valid.we're not gettin anywhere here.

in reply to nightmaretree.yeah,ive heard they do that,which shows that even the writers often disagree with what they've written lol and it is about fun,which is why i said earlier that in a game,i would always bow to majority rule.If most of my players thought like dreicunan,i would play it their way.and indeed,some of them do.but im fortunate that they respect my opinion and are not arguing the toss with me.

in reply to armorlord,yes i didnt realize about this debris field.but the way ive decided to handle the character means that he will have sophisticated sensors,which should address that.

edit:thinking i might be asked about the rifter Q&A about NPC's,its Rifter #13 pg16

Ah sweet rifter 13 and your deck of fate.

yeah thats a nice item...i wouldnt draw any cards out of it though.i have terrible luck with cards.

My thoughts on getting to space would be to use a minor flight power, Flight:Space/Wingless/Energy are the top contenders there.
FTL might require some external factors, Orbital Stargates, "gravity POints" or what have you, to help the GM keep things in control.