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The philosophy behind HtH and Boxing granting extra attacks isn't that it makes your hands faster. It's that it trains your mindset for combat. You become more decisive and aggressive when faced with a fight or flight situation. Do a little internet research on combat mindset for more information.

I thought boxing didn't add extra attacks in ranged combat. Have I been wrong all this time?

Willy Elektrix wrote:I thought boxing didn't add extra attacks in ranged combat. Have I been wrong all this time?

we may have been doing it wrong, but your APM (Actions per Melee) applies to all attack options, whether you are shooting a bow, or a gun, or fighting in melee.

the basic breakdown as I understand it is:
you get 2 for being alive
you get an additional based on hand to hand training (if any)
you get additional if you have any skills that add attacks (such as boxing)
if your class or occ/rcc adds attacks you get those as well.
if your race or certain powers add attacks you get them as well.
if you have combat training and are using a correct power armor or vehicle, you get those also

when you add all that up that gives your characters actions/attacks per melee round (15 seconds)
then as you start acting different skills and abilities use a certain number of actions/attacks to use.

for instance a punch or kick uses 1
a power punch or leap kick uses a minimum of 2
firing a gun typically uses 1 unless you are taking extra time to aim etc.

what the OP is proposing is to change the mechanics to ENCOURAGE melee at the expense of ranged combat.

Willy Elektrix wrote:I thought boxing didn't add extra attacks in ranged combat. Have I been wrong all this time?

You expend melee attacks to make ranged attacks. See p. 361 RUE. Also the current rule is spell invocations levels 1-5 take one melee attack, 6-10 take two, 11-15 take three.

I dont see that melee needs more of a bonus than it already has.

Being in melee presents a ton of benefits over ranged combat already.

Average strike bonuses with a ranged weapon are quote low (pretty much just WP bonuses and maybe an OCC bonus, POSSIBLY an optics bonus).

Strike bonuses with melee weapons are quite a bit higher, so you're a lot more likely to actually hit with the attacks. And (if you're in close melee range) you can even parry attacks from guns (by parrying the gun out of the way).

Damage is quite high on a lot of frequently available melee weapons. (A TW Flaming Sword can easily inflict 5D6 MD if you have Fencing). Even tech-based options can be quite good (a Wilk's Laser Sword w/fencing inflicts 6D6 MD).

Melee doesn't need help.

VaderLike wrote:

Khanibal wrote:The philosophy behind HtH and Boxing granting extra attacks isn't that it makes your hands faster. It's that it trains your mindset for combat. You become more decisive and aggressive when faced with a fight or flight situation. Do a little internet research on combat mindset for more information.

I understand the reasoning behind it, but how does that effect the game? For one absolutely everyone chooses boxing. Why wouldn’t they? Mage? Operator? Seer? Everyone is a trained boxer because gaining an extra melee attack makes it too powerful and enticing a skill, even if it makes no character sense.

Adjusting to make the boxing skill only give an additional attack per melee if in melee-combat makes it much less appealing to classes who probably shouldn’t know it to begin with.

I honestly could argue against the premis that boxing makes you a more effective rifleman anyway.

1 - the system isn't about realism.

2 - a lot of the classes you listed cant take boxing. Not everyone can.

3 - its an abstract system; i view Boxing in its current form as "additional semi-pro/hobby combat training of some form"; if you want to represent it as some other combat-related activity that you do on a hobbyist basis, then go right ahead.

That being said, in my ongoing (extremely slow) rewrite, Boxing IS being changed into having a game mechanic attached to it:

One-Two Punch
After a successful melee attack, or an attack that is parried or dodged by less than 4 points, a Character with boxing may make an additional melee attack immediately."

However, i'm also adding or changing other similar skills to account for other fighting styles. For instance, W.P. Sharpshooting no longer grants a flat extra action, either, but rather:

Follow-up Shot
Once per round, a character with this skill may immediately make an additional attack with his weapon following any successful attack or an attack that misses (not dodged) by less than 5 points.

This basically represents making a quick follow-up shot to a successful shot or near-miss by just slightly adjusting aim and taking another shot.

FWIW, i agree that Palladium Proliferation is a an issue, but it's not one that can be fixed merely by changing one aspect in isolation. For instance, as part of my "overhaul", im changing the system to have three types of actions - General, Defensive, and Offensive. General can be used as any type of action, but defensive actions can ONLY be used for defensive maneuvers, and Offensive actions can ONLY be used to make attacks.

It re-balances a lot of the issue.

I would just like to add in that altering how actions are allocated and privileging some actions to certain kind of activities will seriously impact mages, psychics and supers.
For example, the average mage starts with 4-5 APM, a rare get six (most of them can't take boxing either). With that they need to take their dodges and perform their class function... spell casting.
If they can only use two of those for spell casting at all... well it will make most mages basically useless in combat unless you add in some sort of compensating factor.

It will also hinder people like Snipers/Gunslingers who already have very low APM totals to start with, and routinely need to spend 2-3 of them per action...
It would drop, for example, a shooter with 6 APM from making 2 aimed called shots per round to only making 2/3 of one per round...I don't know many people that would be interested in playing a character who only gets to take an action every other turn... especially while the tank is now getting to make four or five times as many attacks as you...
Now yes I get that sniping is supposed to take time... but again making a class pointless is simply going to make it less fun... and likely result in an increase in the already high numbers of melee specialists with obscene numbers of APMs with bonuses in the teens (or higher).

Instead I would suggest simply implementing the full rules for guns.
If shooters have to deal with movement penalties, and if everyone remembers that the ONLY bonus that applies to strike with guns is your WP + Equipment + special (so you are looking at normal people getting +2 or +3 to strike), and that when you use guns in melee range the shots can be dodged. And the rules for wild shots can be nasty. RAW if you dodged last action the next shot is wild... think about that for a moment.
And its not so bad. Or at the very least it requires people to specialize in a field. If you want to be a gunbunny you need to sink lots of skills in that, if you want to be a Cuisinart you have to sink your skills in that... but it becomes a lot harder to dabble and be good at both.

eliakon wrote:I would just like to add in that altering how actions are allocated and privileging some actions to certain kind of activities will seriously impact mages, psychics and supers.
For example, the average mage starts with 4-5 APM, a rare get six (most of them can't take boxing either). With that they need to take their dodges and perform their class function... spell casting.
If they can only use two of those for spell casting at all... well it will make most mages basically useless in combat unless you add in some sort of compensating factor.

It will also hinder people like Snipers/Gunslingers who already have very low APM totals to start with, and routinely need to spend 2-3 of them per action...
It would drop, for example, a shooter with 6 APM from making 2 aimed called shots per round to only making 2/3 of one per round...I don't know many people that would be interested in playing a character who only gets to take an action every other turn... especially while the tank is now getting to make four or five times as many attacks as you...
Now yes I get that sniping is supposed to take time... but again making a class pointless is simply going to make it less fun... and likely result in an increase in the already high numbers of melee specialists with obscene numbers of APMs with bonuses in the teens (or higher).

Instead I would suggest simply implementing the full rules for guns.
If shooters have to deal with movement penalties, and if everyone remembers that the ONLY bonus that applies to strike with guns is your WP + Equipment + special (so you are looking at normal people getting +2 or +3 to strike), and that when you use guns in melee range the shots can be dodged. And the rules for wild shots can be nasty. RAW if you dodged last action the next shot is wild... think about that for a moment.
And its not so bad. Or at the very least it requires people to specialize in a field. If you want to be a gunbunny you need to sink lots of skills in that, if you want to be a Cuisinart you have to sink your skills in that... but it becomes a lot harder to dabble and be good at both.

FWIW, my current numbers are basically splitting up the current APM into Offensive and General pools (so if you have 4 attacks now, youd probably have 2 Offensive, 2 general), and then im ADDING defensive actions (usually 1 or 2 at level 1). Still working on the final numbers, and still working on how additional actions will be added via Combat Training.

Where im cutting “proliferation” is by not having skills like Boxing, WP Sharpshooting, or some class abilities not adding general actions (for instance, Gunslinger types from New West and similar classes will see their blaket extra attacks turn into offensive actions, or something else cool, but not general actions), and Vehicle Combat Training -not- stacking with regular Combat Training. (H2H skils are being replaced with Combat Training, to reflect that it isnt just hand to hand training, and split into two branches - Civilan and Military).

Im also reverting/doing away with how basic aimed single shots work, and called shots. Called shots go back to being something you can do with a single action, but have a target number to beat (depending on what youre shooting at) and potentially a penalty on top of that. Single action aimed/steady shots go back to being a thing, and “Aimed” shots are now a stacking +1 strike bonus per Offensive or General action you “aim” before shooting. (So if you wait and aim for 4 actions, you get an additional +4 to hit). If you have to do anything else before you fire, your aim is ruined (like dodging).

Combat Training (replaces H2H skills) is split into two branches - Civilian and Military. Some classes will only have one branch available, or will have to pay extra to pick one from the other branch). Combat Training skills will have more varied bonuses than the current H2H skills - such as bonuses with modern, high-tech, or melee weapons, etc.

Civilian Combat Training skills (so far) are:
Streetwise (City Rats, etc, focus on melee bonuses, pistols/small weapons, and parrying over dodging)
Militia (similar to Basic Military training with a focus more on defensive maneuvers)
Police/SWAT (focus on CQB weapons and non-lethal takedowns and maneuvers)
Assassin (pretty much H2H Assassin with bonuses added for long range sniping OR close-in kills, player choice)

Military Combat Training skills are pretty much the existing skills, with bonuses shuffled or added (modern weapon bonuses, etc):
Basic, Expert, Advanced/Ranger (still looking for a better name for the renamed Martial Arts), and Commando/Special Forces.

Actions from combat training DONT stack with Vehicle Combat skills.

Also, your points about the *current* system as written are extremely valid. If people actually ran it as written, people using guns are shooting wild 3/4 of the time or facing steep penalties on top of the rather paltry bonuses you get with guns.

I have been running (& every GM I've played under), that Boxing is +1 attk only for melee.

And once my co-GM & I got used to the change in RUE that WP bonuses w/ ranged weapons require eating attacks (meaning "I'm aiming, thus taking a knee"; next action is PEW), it's taken care of ranged battle just being pew-pew back & forth.

But we've not had issues with melee attacks. And spells now take 1 apm per 5ish levels, which has made low level mages much more viable.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

eliakon wrote:I would just like to add in that altering how actions are allocated and privileging some actions to certain kind of activities will seriously impact mages, psychics and supers.
For example, the average mage starts with 4-5 APM, a rare get six (most of them can't take boxing either). With that they need to take their dodges and perform their class function... spell casting.
If they can only use two of those for spell casting at all... well it will make most mages basically useless in combat unless you add in some sort of compensating factor.

It will also hinder people like Snipers/Gunslingers who already have very low APM totals to start with, and routinely need to spend 2-3 of them per action...
It would drop, for example, a shooter with 6 APM from making 2 aimed called shots per round to only making 2/3 of one per round...I don't know many people that would be interested in playing a character who only gets to take an action every other turn... especially while the tank is now getting to make four or five times as many attacks as you...
Now yes I get that sniping is supposed to take time... but again making a class pointless is simply going to make it less fun... and likely result in an increase in the already high numbers of melee specialists with obscene numbers of APMs with bonuses in the teens (or higher).

Instead I would suggest simply implementing the full rules for guns.
If shooters have to deal with movement penalties, and if everyone remembers that the ONLY bonus that applies to strike with guns is your WP + Equipment + special (so you are looking at normal people getting +2 or +3 to strike), and that when you use guns in melee range the shots can be dodged. And the rules for wild shots can be nasty. RAW if you dodged last action the next shot is wild... think about that for a moment.
And its not so bad. Or at the very least it requires people to specialize in a field. If you want to be a gunbunny you need to sink lots of skills in that, if you want to be a Cuisinart you have to sink your skills in that... but it becomes a lot harder to dabble and be good at both.

FWIW, my current numbers are basically splitting up the current APM into Offensive and General pools (so if you have 4 attacks now, youd probably have 2 Offensive, 2 general), and then im ADDING defensive actions (usually 1 or 2 at level 1). Still working on the final numbers, and still working on how additional actions will be added via Combat Training.

Where im cutting “proliferation” is by not having skills like Boxing, WP Sharpshooting, or some class abilities not adding general actions (for instance, Gunslinger types from New West and similar classes will see their blaket extra attacks turn into offensive actions, or something else cool, but not general actions), and Vehicle Combat Training -not- stacking with regular Combat Training. (H2H skils are being replaced with Combat Training, to reflect that it isnt just hand to hand training, and split into two branches - Civilan and Military).

Im also reverting/doing away with how basic aimed single shots work, and called shots. Called shots go back to being something you can do with a single action, but have a target number to beat (depending on what youre shooting at) and potentially a penalty on top of that. Single action aimed/steady shots go back to being a thing, and “Aimed” shots are now a stacking +1 strike bonus per Offensive or General action you “aim” before shooting. (So if you wait and aim for 4 actions, you get an additional +4 to hit). If you have to do anything else before you fire, your aim is ruined (like dodging).

Combat Training (replaces H2H skills) is split into two branches - Civilian and Military. Some classes will only have one branch available, or will have to pay extra to pick one from the other branch). Combat Training skills will have more varied bonuses than the current H2H skills - such as bonuses with modern, high-tech, or melee weapons, etc.

Civilian Combat Training skills (so far) are:
Streetwise (City Rats, etc, focus on melee bonuses, pistols/small weapons, and parrying over dodging)
Militia (similar to Basic Military training with a focus more on defensive maneuvers)
Police/SWAT (focus on CQB weapons and non-lethal takedowns and maneuvers)
Assassin (pretty much H2H Assassin with bonuses added for long range sniping OR close-in kills, player choice)

Military Combat Training skills are pretty much the existing skills, with bonuses shuffled or added (modern weapon bonuses, etc):
Basic, Expert, Advanced/Ranger (still looking for a better name for the renamed Martial Arts), and Commando/Special Forces.

Actions from combat training DONT stack with Vehicle Combat skills.

Right... all well and good.
But how do you intend to handle mages?
If I only get 2 offensive actions then I am going to be pretty much nerfed at my core ability... spell casting because many spells take 2 or three actions to perform... which is fine when the premise is that this is just a third of a round or half a round... but it will basically make high level spells utterly impossible to cast in any combat situation and midlevel ones virtually impossible.

Myrrhibis wrote:I have been running (& every GM I've played under), that Boxing is +1 attk only for melee.

So... you can dodge an extra time... but only in melee range? ‘Kay. That seems... weird. Did you also do this with Sharpshooting? (only get your extra attack outside of melee range? Cant use it to dodge melee attacks?). Seems unfair otherwise.

And once my co-GM & I got used to the change in RUE that WP bonuses w/ ranged weapons require eating attacks

Only if you want the +2 for aiming. The base WP bonuses apply at all times.

(meaning "I'm aiming, thus taking a knee"; next action is PEW), it's taken care of ranged battle just being pew-pew back & forth.

Uhh.. how so? Its just half as much pew pew. It also REALLY disadvantages non-RPA characters. A lot of robot and power armor weapons like railguns cant fire aimed shots, which means they dont have to bother wasting attacks “aiming”, and they already get between 1-3 extra attacks at level 1 anyway...

But we've not had issues with melee attacks.

Because melee was never weak? MUCH higher strike bonuses, decent to high damage commonly available, and the ability to parry ranged/gun attacks when youre in melee range.

And spells now take 1 apm per 5ish levels, which has made low level mages much more viable.

This is already the rule in RUE. Or is that what you were trying to say? Because it felt like you were saying it was a house rule, and it isnt.

eliakon wrote:

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

eliakon wrote:I would just like to add in that altering how actions are allocated and privileging some actions to certain kind of activities will seriously impact mages, psychics and supers.
For example, the average mage starts with 4-5 APM, a rare get six (most of them can't take boxing either). With that they need to take their dodges and perform their class function... spell casting.
If they can only use two of those for spell casting at all... well it will make most mages basically useless in combat unless you add in some sort of compensating factor.

It will also hinder people like Snipers/Gunslingers who already have very low APM totals to start with, and routinely need to spend 2-3 of them per action...
It would drop, for example, a shooter with 6 APM from making 2 aimed called shots per round to only making 2/3 of one per round...I don't know many people that would be interested in playing a character who only gets to take an action every other turn... especially while the tank is now getting to make four or five times as many attacks as you...
Now yes I get that sniping is supposed to take time... but again making a class pointless is simply going to make it less fun... and likely result in an increase in the already high numbers of melee specialists with obscene numbers of APMs with bonuses in the teens (or higher).

Instead I would suggest simply implementing the full rules for guns.
If shooters have to deal with movement penalties, and if everyone remembers that the ONLY bonus that applies to strike with guns is your WP + Equipment + special (so you are looking at normal people getting +2 or +3 to strike), and that when you use guns in melee range the shots can be dodged. And the rules for wild shots can be nasty. RAW if you dodged last action the next shot is wild... think about that for a moment.
And its not so bad. Or at the very least it requires people to specialize in a field. If you want to be a gunbunny you need to sink lots of skills in that, if you want to be a Cuisinart you have to sink your skills in that... but it becomes a lot harder to dabble and be good at both.

FWIW, my current numbers are basically splitting up the current APM into Offensive and General pools (so if you have 4 attacks now, youd probably have 2 Offensive, 2 general), and then im ADDING defensive actions (usually 1 or 2 at level 1). Still working on the final numbers, and still working on how additional actions will be added via Combat Training.

Where im cutting “proliferation” is by not having skills like Boxing, WP Sharpshooting, or some class abilities not adding general actions (for instance, Gunslinger types from New West and similar classes will see their blaket extra attacks turn into offensive actions, or something else cool, but not general actions), and Vehicle Combat Training -not- stacking with regular Combat Training. (H2H skils are being replaced with Combat Training, to reflect that it isnt just hand to hand training, and split into two branches - Civilan and Military).

Im also reverting/doing away with how basic aimed single shots work, and called shots. Called shots go back to being something you can do with a single action, but have a target number to beat (depending on what youre shooting at) and potentially a penalty on top of that. Single action aimed/steady shots go back to being a thing, and “Aimed” shots are now a stacking +1 strike bonus per Offensive or General action you “aim” before shooting. (So if you wait and aim for 4 actions, you get an additional +4 to hit). If you have to do anything else before you fire, your aim is ruined (like dodging).

Combat Training (replaces H2H skills) is split into two branches - Civilian and Military. Some classes will only have one branch available, or will have to pay extra to pick one from the other branch). Combat Training skills will have more varied bonuses than the current H2H skills - such as bonuses with modern, high-tech, or melee weapons, etc.

Civilian Combat Training skills (so far) are:
Streetwise (City Rats, etc, focus on melee bonuses, pistols/small weapons, and parrying over dodging)
Militia (similar to Basic Military training with a focus more on defensive maneuvers)
Police/SWAT (focus on CQB weapons and non-lethal takedowns and maneuvers)
Assassin (pretty much H2H Assassin with bonuses added for long range sniping OR close-in kills, player choice)

Military Combat Training skills are pretty much the existing skills, with bonuses shuffled or added (modern weapon bonuses, etc):
Basic, Expert, Advanced/Ranger (still looking for a better name for the renamed Martial Arts), and Commando/Special Forces.

Actions from combat training DONT stack with Vehicle Combat skills.

Right... all well and good.
But how do you intend to handle mages?
If I only get 2 offensive actions then I am going to be pretty much nerfed at my core ability... spell casting because many spells take 2 or three actions to perform... which is fine when the premise is that this is just a third of a round or half a round... but it will basically make high level spells utterly impossible to cast in any combat situation and midlevel ones virtually impossible.

... General Actions can be used as either. Thought i made that clear. If not, that should clear it up.

Generally speaking (and the numbers are still rough) if you have 4 H2H attacks now, youll probably have two offensive and two general, AND a single defensive action (or maybe 2 for the more defense-oriented CT skills like Militia, but that might be 1O/2G/2D). So youd still have 4 actions potentially available for spellcasting at level 1 (2 offensive, 2 general), just like now. Generally speaking, Offensive and General actions will equal to the current number of H2H attacks, +/- 1, at any given level.

For example (and clarity):

Currently at level 1 with H2H Basic you get 4 attacks/actions.
If you were, say, a Glitter Boy pilot, youd add two more attacks to this, for a total of 6.

Under my system, we revert back to some number of actions being inherent to the character, so at level 1:

All characters inherently have 1 offensive and 1 general action.
Military Basic Combat Training (what was H2H Basic) grants 1 Offensive, 1 General, and 1 Defensive action, for a total of 2 Offensive, 2 General, and 1 Defensive - roughly equivalent to now, with one less chance to dodge (only 3 actions available for defensive maneuvers that consume actions), but you will always have 2 actions to attack/cast with.

However, if youre a GB pilot in this scenario, you DO NOT add the GB Combat Training to the Military Basic CT, instead you add it to your inherent stats, just like regular combat training. For this example, lets say that PA Elite Combat Training in GB adds 1 Offensive and 2 General Actions, which would give you a total of 2 offensive/3 general. Just an example - i havent even begun to look at re-balancing the vehicle combat training skills yet (and theyll need a lot of work to make sure actions even out, etc, since they wont be building on top of regular Combat Training skills).

Thats where the proliferation-curtailing comes in, though, and it makes classes that get honest-to-goodness extra actions (like Juicers and Crazies) more appealing and fit the lore a little better (as they ARE now actually faster/have more actions). Most of those classes (especially those that get more than a single extra action) tend not to use Power Armor/Robots or heavy vehicles anyway (a lot of them cant even take the skills).

Its still rough and im definitely open to having holes punched in it. But for casters, you will generally have the same number of total actions available (Offensive + General) for spellcasting as now at any given level.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:... General Actions can be used as either. Thought i made that clear. If not, that should clear it up.

Yes, yes it does . My bad.

VaderLike wrote:Does fewer attacks for melee up the strategery of combat or just slow it down?

I would argue that it slows it down. Compare Robot/Power Armor Combat to regular combat. R/PA Combat has more actions per melee than regular combat, so you don't have to roll for initiative as often.

VaderLike wrote:I’m leaning heavily towards a House Rule where Boxing will only grant an additional attack in melee-fighting, having to at least attack physically once to get the second.

Bonus attacks for specific circumstances are not without precedent. You have it with Robot Combat skills, New West's gun fighter OCC types, Paired Weapons (to an extent), etc.

VaderLike wrote:*The benefit of ranged attacks is, and always has been, in getting to attack your enemy without him attacking you. That advantage remains.

Actually this is not true, your target can always engage with ranged weapons of their own if they have them.

VaderLike wrote:*Two parties pew pew’ing at each other from a distance wash the fewer APM penalty out.

No it doesn't. At least not without some other changes to the system. By putting fewer APMs in place you end up drawing out combat in terms of the number of melees since they still do the same amount of damage per APM as before, so to counter the "high" protective values in place you'd end up taking more a "character perceived time" than previously.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

eliakon wrote:I would just like to add in that altering how actions are allocated and privileging some actions to certain kind of activities will seriously impact mages, psychics and supers.
For example, the average mage starts with 4-5 APM, a rare get six (most of them can't take boxing either). With that they need to take their dodges and perform their class function... spell casting.
If they can only use two of those for spell casting at all... well it will make most mages basically useless in combat unless you add in some sort of compensating factor.

It will also hinder people like Snipers/Gunslingers who already have very low APM totals to start with, and routinely need to spend 2-3 of them per action...
It would drop, for example, a shooter with 6 APM from making 2 aimed called shots per round to only making 2/3 of one per round...I don't know many people that would be interested in playing a character who only gets to take an action every other turn... especially while the tank is now getting to make four or five times as many attacks as you...
Now yes I get that sniping is supposed to take time... but again making a class pointless is simply going to make it less fun... and likely result in an increase in the already high numbers of melee specialists with obscene numbers of APMs with bonuses in the teens (or higher).

Instead I would suggest simply implementing the full rules for guns.
If shooters have to deal with movement penalties, and if everyone remembers that the ONLY bonus that applies to strike with guns is your WP + Equipment + special (so you are looking at normal people getting +2 or +3 to strike), and that when you use guns in melee range the shots can be dodged. And the rules for wild shots can be nasty. RAW if you dodged last action the next shot is wild... think about that for a moment.
And its not so bad. Or at the very least it requires people to specialize in a field. If you want to be a gunbunny you need to sink lots of skills in that, if you want to be a Cuisinart you have to sink your skills in that... but it becomes a lot harder to dabble and be good at both.

FWIW, my current numbers are basically splitting up the current APM into Offensive and General pools (so if you have 4 attacks now, youd probably have 2 Offensive, 2 general), and then im ADDING defensive actions (usually 1 or 2 at level 1). Still working on the final numbers, and still working on how additional actions will be added via Combat Training.

Where im cutting “proliferation” is by not having skills like Boxing, WP Sharpshooting, or some class abilities not adding general actions (for instance, Gunslinger types from New West and similar classes will see their blaket extra attacks turn into offensive actions, or something else cool, but not general actions), and Vehicle Combat Training -not- stacking with regular Combat Training. (H2H skils are being replaced with Combat Training, to reflect that it isnt just hand to hand training, and split into two branches - Civilan and Military).

Im also reverting/doing away with how basic aimed single shots work, and called shots. Called shots go back to being something you can do with a single action, but have a target number to beat (depending on what youre shooting at) and potentially a penalty on top of that. Single action aimed/steady shots go back to being a thing, and “Aimed” shots are now a stacking +1 strike bonus per Offensive or General action you “aim” before shooting. (So if you wait and aim for 4 actions, you get an additional +4 to hit). If you have to do anything else before you fire, your aim is ruined (like dodging).

Combat Training (replaces H2H skills) is split into two branches - Civilian and Military. Some classes will only have one branch available, or will have to pay extra to pick one from the other branch). Combat Training skills will have more varied bonuses than the current H2H skills - such as bonuses with modern, high-tech, or melee weapons, etc.

Civilian Combat Training skills (so far) are:
Streetwise (City Rats, etc, focus on melee bonuses, pistols/small weapons, and parrying over dodging)
Militia (similar to Basic Military training with a focus more on defensive maneuvers)
Police/SWAT (focus on CQB weapons and non-lethal takedowns and maneuvers)
Assassin (pretty much H2H Assassin with bonuses added for long range sniping OR close-in kills, player choice)

Military Combat Training skills are pretty much the existing skills, with bonuses shuffled or added (modern weapon bonuses, etc):
Basic, Expert, Advanced/Ranger (still looking for a better name for the renamed Martial Arts), and Commando/Special Forces.

Actions from combat training DONT stack with Vehicle Combat skills.

Right... all well and good.
But how do you intend to handle mages?
If I only get 2 offensive actions then I am going to be pretty much nerfed at my core ability... spell casting because many spells take 2 or three actions to perform... which is fine when the premise is that this is just a third of a round or half a round... but it will basically make high level spells utterly impossible to cast in any combat situation and midlevel ones virtually impossible.

... General Actions can be used as either. Thought i made that clear. If not, that should clear it up.

Generally speaking (and the numbers are still rough) if you have 4 H2H attacks now, youll probably have two offensive and two general, AND a single defensive action (or maybe 2 for the more defense-oriented CT skills like Militia, but that might be 1O/2G/2D). So youd still have 4 actions potentially available for spellcasting at level 1 (2 offensive, 2 general), just like now. Generally speaking, Offensive and General actions will equal to the current number of H2H attacks, +/- 1, at any given level.

For example (and clarity):

Currently at level 1 with H2H Basic you get 4 attacks/actions.
If you were, say, a Glitter Boy pilot, youd add two more attacks to this, for a total of 6.

Under my system, we revert back to some number of actions being inherent to the character, so at level 1:

All characters inherently have 1 offensive and 1 general action.
Military Basic Combat Training (what was H2H Basic) grants 1 Offensive, 1 General, and 1 Defensive action, for a total of 2 Offensive, 2 General, and 1 Defensive - roughly equivalent to now, with one less chance to dodge (only 3 actions available for defensive maneuvers that consume actions), but you will always have 2 actions to attack/cast with.

However, if youre a GB pilot in this scenario, you DO NOT add the GB Combat Training to the Military Basic CT, instead you add it to your inherent stats, just like regular combat training. For this example, lets say that PA Elite Combat Training in GB adds 1 Offensive and 2 General Actions, which would give you a total of 2 offensive/3 general. Just an example - i havent even begun to look at re-balancing the vehicle combat training skills yet (and theyll need a lot of work to make sure actions even out, etc, since they wont be building on top of regular Combat Training skills).

Thats where the proliferation-curtailing comes in, though, and it makes classes that get honest-to-goodness extra actions (like Juicers and Crazies) more appealing and fit the lore a little better (as they ARE now actually faster/have more actions). Most of those classes (especially those that get more than a single extra action) tend not to use Power Armor/Robots or heavy vehicles anyway (a lot of them cant even take the skills).

Its still rough and im definitely open to having holes punched in it. But for casters, you will generally have the same number of total actions available (Offensive + General) for spellcasting as now at any given level.

Just a quick clarification question: would a defensive spell like Armor of Ithan be castable with a defensive action? Or is the pool for casting always offensive + general? (I can see an argument for each way, with just using general + offensive = casting pool simplifying the issue of how many actions you get to cast spells that are inherently neither offensive nor defensive).

Of course, another option would be that casters can just convert a certain number of actions of any kind into "casting actions" as they go up in level. Heck, that could be a benefit to a class like a Combat Mage - they get an extra casting action in combat due to their focus on casting in battle. I could see doing a similar thing for psionic powers. Not sure if that would make balancing easier or harder, however.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
... General Actions can be used as either. Thought i made that clear. If not, that should clear it up.

Generally speaking (and the numbers are still rough) if you have 4 H2H attacks now, youll probably have two offensive and two general, AND a single defensive action (or maybe 2 for the more defense-oriented CT skills like Militia, but that might be 1O/2G/2D). So youd still have 4 actions potentially available for spellcasting at level 1 (2 offensive, 2 general), just like now. Generally speaking, Offensive and General actions will equal to the current number of H2H attacks, +/- 1, at any given level.

For example (and clarity):

Currently at level 1 with H2H Basic you get 4 attacks/actions.
If you were, say, a Glitter Boy pilot, youd add two more attacks to this, for a total of 6.

Under my system, we revert back to some number of actions being inherent to the character, so at level 1:

All characters inherently have 1 offensive and 1 general action.
Military Basic Combat Training (what was H2H Basic) grants 1 Offensive, 1 General, and 1 Defensive action, for a total of 2 Offensive, 2 General, and 1 Defensive - roughly equivalent to now, with one less chance to dodge (only 3 actions available for defensive maneuvers that consume actions), but you will always have 2 actions to attack/cast with.

However, if youre a GB pilot in this scenario, you DO NOT add the GB Combat Training to the Military Basic CT, instead you add it to your inherent stats, just like regular combat training. For this example, lets say that PA Elite Combat Training in GB adds 1 Offensive and 2 General Actions, which would give you a total of 2 offensive/3 general. Just an example - i havent even begun to look at re-balancing the vehicle combat training skills yet (and theyll need a lot of work to make sure actions even out, etc, since they wont be building on top of regular Combat Training skills).

Thats where the proliferation-curtailing comes in, though, and it makes classes that get honest-to-goodness extra actions (like Juicers and Crazies) more appealing and fit the lore a little better (as they ARE now actually faster/have more actions). Most of those classes (especially those that get more than a single extra action) tend not to use Power Armor/Robots or heavy vehicles anyway (a lot of them cant even take the skills).

Its still rough and im definitely open to having holes punched in it. But for casters, you will generally have the same number of total actions available (Offensive + General) for spellcasting as now at any given level.

"...and as you can see here on chart 34c-17..."


Hey, wanna play Rolemaster?