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Just as the question asks... exactly who knows the secret that the Sunaj are Atlanteans?

Going through Atlantis, Splynn Dimentional Market and Secrets of the Atlanteans, it seems rather unclear just who knows that the Sunaj are Atlanteans.

When first presented, it seemed that most of Clan Aerihman knew of the secret, with those who didn't agree keeping quiet out of loyalty to their clan. Now it seems that the majority of them are as clueless of the Sunaj identity as the rest of the Atlantean Clans. It is also unclear if the death of the 1,300 Aerihman Atlanteans that are the volunteers that willingly sacrificed their lives for the Sunaj cause... or if they were chosen to be sacrificed to throw suspicion off of the Clan (but were otherwise true innocents that were attacked by the Sunaj… even tortured by them).

As for others, it is suggested in the early books that the Splugorth (and possibly some of their minions) know the Sunaj are Atlanteans, but just how many of them are aware of the truth? We know that many of the minions can demean and belittle the Sunaj without fear of reprisal (at least none that can be traced back to the Sunaj), but does this mean that most minions are aware that the Sunaj are Atlanteans? With millions of minions (if not billions), it seems unlikely that this secret could be kept for any length of time if they are all aware of who the Sunaj truly are. So, which minions are most likely to be aware of the truth?

What of others? Are there any other groups presented that have discovered or been let in on this secret? I have only looked through these three books dealing specifically with Atlantis and the Atlanteans... are there any others that have information on the Sunaj that offers more insight into who knows of their idenity?

Just who knows that the Sunaj are Atlanteans?

Right now, only the Sunaj themselves and Spylnncryth, in cannon. Technically none of the other Splurgorth are in on it, the deal was made directly with Splynn alone.

How the secret is kept is the same way that the CS has unlimited resources to build Mecha: Because Kevin Said So. There is no logical way the secret could be kept for any length of time.

The Sunaj are Atlanteans? No way. That's impossible. No Atlantean would ever harm another Atlantean.

You must be working for them, spreading lies to cover their tracks!

Given the cell structure of the Sunaj (presented in Secrets), it is easier for them to keep a lower profile than before... even with a great number of them (with only one or two members in a cell knowing anyone in another cell).

Some how I don't think that Splyncryth is the only Splugorth that knows the secret... he may have been the first approached and the main influence for the Sunaj among the other Splugorth, but it seems that others have either been told or have figured out the truth. And for his minions, the High Lords seem the most likely to also know (since their loyalty to the Splugorth is almost absolute). Even here, not all High Lords are likely aware of the truth... only those who need to know and those smart enough to discover the truth.

Other minions may have been told, but only if they need to know it (which most likely don't). While all of the major (Elite) minions are able to get away with belittling the Sunaj (who likely realize attacking them will be punished by both the Splugorth and their superiors among the Sunaj), the lesser minions are less likely to share that protection.

I can work with this... in many ways the Sunaj will be working to keep their identity a secret for as long as possible... much how the Atlantean Monster Hunters currently keep the secret of their Monster Shaping Tattoos a clan secret (the Sunaj are like a small secretive Clan within the larger Aerihman clan). Given the spread out nature of the Atlanteans (and the Sunaj themselves), their cell structure does seem to work to keep things quiet... for now.

originally the Sunaj, like the Kittani, appear to have been written up as Splynncryth exclusive minions. only later writers stuck both into the forces of other Splugorth nowhere near earth, making their status more complicated.

glitterboy2098 wrote:originally the Sunaj, like the Kittani, appear to have been written up as Splynncryth exclusive minions. only later writers stuck both into the forces of other Splugorth nowhere near earth, making their status more complicated.

Not necessarily. Who says Splynncryth doesn't rent his minions out to other forces? Or sell them. Minions may be treated better than slaves, but I always assumed that Splurgorth bartered for Minions with specific needed talents and skills between each-other.

that still makes it complicated. my point is that as written, the kittani and sunaj were set up as Splynncryth specific minions. which is fairly straight forward. then the Kittani became a standard splugorth minion race in the Three galaxies, and we got Sunaj showing up with nearly every splugorth as well. which means now things are complicated, because instead of a straight forward "they all work for splynncryth at atlantis' we now have to speculate on the possibilities of them being loaned out, or other splugorth hiring them under the table, or other splugorth buying/kidnapping breeding stock (for kittani) and slave-warriors (sunaj) or any number of other scenarios that might explain it.

an i nthe case of the sunaj, we now have to figure out who of these many employers actually know their secret, how do the sunaj manage to hide their identity from their employers or prevent their employers from revealing the secret, etc..

so, complicated.

glitterboy2098 wrote:originally the Sunaj, like the Kittani, appear to have been written up as Splynncryth exclusive minions. only later writers stuck both into the forces of other Splugorth nowhere near earth, making their status more complicated.

Exactly.
Originally the Kittani, Kyndians, and Sunaj were examples of the sorts of resources a Splugorth might have... Which is why in Atlantis it says that they are all loyal to him, and why
He had picked up a couple private races here and there, and some minions and hirelings.
Then instead of making up other races for the other Splugorth to have picked up... they suddenly became generic.

The Shadow knows.

Honestly... the Sunaj thing is one of the things I change all the time in my games. It helps cut down on the metagaming, significantly, if players don't actually know all the secrets and have to figure them out themselves too. It also makes it more rewarding when/if they do so as they get the satisfaction of solving a real mystery and not one that they already know the answer to and have to try and solve with out using their insider information...

I like the idea that other Splugorth having Splynncryth's minions are an example of his spreading power, which makes sense, since he's parked on Rifts Earth, the ultimate nexus. He could probably oust that Three Galaxies loser instantly.

Axelmania wrote:I like the idea that other Splugorth having Splynncryth's minions are an example of his spreading power, which makes sense, since he's parked on Rifts Earth, the ultimate nexus. He could probably oust that Three Galaxies loser instantly.

Theres more than one Splugorth in the 3G. Klynncryth, in Center, is emulating Splynncryth. The other Splugorth have Kingdoms numbering in the hundreds of worlds. Splynncryth only has 3 that we know of.

Not even most Sunaj know that they are Atlanteans; their characteristic armor is demon-born, similar to the equipment of Armageddon Unlimited, and blinds them to that fact while they wear it, and when it's removed, it dissolves completely, leaving the Aehrimann Atlantean with only a plausible reason they are where they are. If the armor is destroyed, it teleports the "corpse" away.

Mark Hall wrote:Not even most Sunaj know that they are Atlanteans; their characteristic armor is demon-born, similar to the equipment of Armageddon Unlimited, and blinds them to that fact while they wear it, and when it's removed, it dissolves completely, leaving the Aehrimann Atlantean with only a plausible reason they are where they are. If the armor is destroyed, it teleports the "corpse" away.

Where is that said?

Mark Hall wrote:Not even most Sunaj know that they are Atlanteans; their characteristic armor is demon-born, similar to the equipment of Armageddon Unlimited, and blinds them to that fact while they wear it, and when it's removed, it dissolves completely, leaving the Aehrimann Atlantean with only a plausible reason they are where they are. If the armor is destroyed, it teleports the "corpse" away.

That seems more of the ridiculousness to explain why nobody's ever figured out the truth about them, a patch to cover one of the obvious 'but why doesn't anyone end up with the corpse which would be great proof that these evil people are really an evil Atlantean clan?' holes.

I just figured they should all have explosives in their armor wired to their hearts.

dragonfett wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:Not even most Sunaj know that they are Atlanteans; their characteristic armor is demon-born, similar to the equipment of Armageddon Unlimited, and blinds them to that fact while they wear it, and when it's removed, it dissolves completely, leaving the Aehrimann Atlantean with only a plausible reason they are where they are. If the armor is destroyed, it teleports the "corpse" away.

Where is that said?

The post right above yours.

Mark Hall wrote:

dragonfett wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:Not even most Sunaj know that they are Atlanteans; their characteristic armor is demon-born, similar to the equipment of Armageddon Unlimited, and blinds them to that fact while they wear it, and when it's removed, it dissolves completely, leaving the Aehrimann Atlantean with only a plausible reason they are where they are. If the armor is destroyed, it teleports the "corpse" away.

Where is that said?

The post right above yours.

No I meant what book and page is that on?

dragonfett wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:

dragonfett wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:Not even most Sunaj know that they are Atlanteans; their characteristic armor is demon-born, similar to the equipment of Armageddon Unlimited, and blinds them to that fact while they wear it, and when it's removed, it dissolves completely, leaving the Aehrimann Atlantean with only a plausible reason they are where they are. If the armor is destroyed, it teleports the "corpse" away.

Where is that said?

The post right above yours.

No I meant what book and page is that on?

i believe he means that it isn't in a book on any page, it's something he just made up on the spot to explain a giant gaping plot hole away.

personally, i prefer to have the sunaj simply not be true atlanteans (with bio-wizardry, it isn't hard to believe that splynncryth developed an enhanced human tattooed slave more impressive than the maxi-man). or, if they are, then they aren't really even part of any regular atlantean clan, but rather consist entirely of captive-bred true atlanteans, subject to intense conditioning since the day they were born that have never even known their birth parents, were never raised as "true atlanteans", and that it is probably known to the real true atlanteans more or less what is going on, and is the source of great emotional pain to many of them, in addition to these captive-bred true atlanteans (or bio-wizardry enhanced humans) in many cases posing as real true atlanteans to act as spies for the splugorth.

because really, the amount of effort that would need to go into keeping this kind of secret really feels greater than the benefit by a significant margin.

Is it possible to tell a true atlantean apart from a regular human once they've had as many magic tattoos as the sunaj use?

Since iirc the Sunaji use a different set of marks of heritage than the rest of their clan, it seems likely that even if it is known they are atlanteans, it might just be assumed they are renegade from multiple clans.. Or true Atlantean slavestock the amplifier need specifically for the job.

Shark_Force wrote:

dragonfett wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:

dragonfett wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:Not even most Sunaj know that they are Atlanteans; their characteristic armor is demon-born, similar to the equipment of Armageddon Unlimited, and blinds them to that fact while they wear it, and when it's removed, it dissolves completely, leaving the Aehrimann Atlantean with only a plausible reason they are where they are. If the armor is destroyed, it teleports the "corpse" away.

Where is that said?

The post right above yours.

No I meant what book and page is that on?

i believe he means that it isn't in a book on any page, it's something he just made up on the spot to explain a giant gaping plot hole away.

personally, i prefer to have the sunaj simply not be true atlanteans (with bio-wizardry, it isn't hard to believe that splynncryth developed an enhanced human tattooed slave more impressive than the maxi-man). or, if they are, then they aren't really even part of any regular atlantean clan, but rather consist entirely of captive-bred true atlanteans, subject to intense conditioning since the day they were born that have never even known their birth parents, were never raised as "true atlanteans", and that it is probably known to the real true atlanteans more or less what is going on, and is the source of great emotional pain to many of them, in addition to these captive-bred true atlanteans (or bio-wizardry enhanced humans) in many cases posing as real true atlanteans to act as spies for the splugorth.

because really, the amount of effort that would need to go into keeping this kind of secret really feels greater than the benefit by a significant margin.

Up until now, I was assigning 100% truth to his statement on the basis that he's one of the writers. I don't know specifically which books he's had a hand in, but I just figured even if he didn't know it all, it's a fair assumption that he knows more than I do.

dragonfett wrote:

dragonfett wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:

dragonfett wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:Not even most Sunaj know that they are Atlanteans; their characteristic armor is demon-born, similar to the equipment of Armageddon Unlimited, and blinds them to that fact while they wear it, and when it's removed, it dissolves completely, leaving the Aehrimann Atlantean with only a plausible reason they are where they are. If the armor is destroyed, it teleports the "corpse" away.

Where is that said?

The post right above yours.

No I meant what book and page is that on?

Up until now, I was assigning 100% truth to his statement on the basis that he's one of the writers. I don't know specifically which books he's had a hand in, but I just figured even if he didn't know it all, it's a fair assumption that he knows more than I do.

Nah, I'm freelance. A few Rifter articles, a giant manuscript a decade ago that they published 1/3rd of. What I say means relatively little.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Right now, only the Sunaj themselves and Spylnncryth, in cannon. Technically none of the other Splurgorth are in on it, the deal was made directly with Splynn alone.

How the secret is kept is the same way that the CS has unlimited resources to build Mecha: Because Kevin Said So. There is no logical way the secret could be kept for any length of time.

Where does it say that Spylnncryth knows?

WB2p62 initially has a ridiculous left column:

Nobody really knows exactly who they are or where they came from.
Nobody has ever seen the face of a Sunaj.

That obviously can't be true since "nobody" would exclude the Sunaj themselves! Have they never seen their own faces? Do they not know who they are or where they came from? DISCARD.

Right column reveals something more believable:

The Splugorth are eager to participate with the Aerihman scheme for several reasons.
First, it finally gives them the opportunity to eliminate a hated, ancient foe

So obviously the SPLUGORTH (if not their minions, even High Lords may be ignorant) do know who they are. Is this ALL Splugorth or only some? Unspecified.

Pg 39:

It was he whom the Sunaj leader first contacted and it was he who sold the idea of an alliance to the other Splugorth.
..
continues to be the personal liaison between the Sunaj and the Splugorth

I think the strongest candidate for "part of the Splugorth who know" is Splynncryth, based on his esteemed position as both first-contact and personal-liason. Presumably he is the ONLY liason (since it says "the" rather than "a") which would make it harder for other Splugorth to know things about them without Splynncryth informing them.

Since page 63 is PLURAL, I believe the implication here is at least 1 other Splugorth must know the truth about the Sunaj, and they are among the other Splugorth who Splynncryth sold the idea of an alliance to.

I guess Splynncryth isn't an absolute guarantee based on page 39. It is plausible, for example, that Splynncryth didn't know who they are, but then 2 other Splugorth figured it out and didn't tell him. But it doesn't seem very likely.

Did Splynncryth reveal the truth to EVERY Splugorth he pitched the alliance to? Perhaps only to those who accepted? Perhaps only to 1 among those who accepted? Or perhaps he didn't reveal it to any of them and only a small minority (perhaps a minority of 1) figured it out on their own?

That's what's unclear to me. I can buy some loser Splugorth (IQ a mere 15, less than the average High Lord) not being able to figure it out, I guess.

I could also imagine a very intelligent high lord (IQ 24) having figured it out on their own, even if not explicitly told. Do we explicitly know that ONLY the alien intelligences know, or could other minions also know? If any non-Splugorth were to know, the likeliest candidate would probably be a High Lord since they are the smartest and highest-ranking.

Page 109 of WB21 (Splynn Dimensional Market) is also informative here:

the Sunaj joined the Splugorth as part of their plan to exterminate the True Atlantean race and there is no way the Splugorth will jeopardize that plan over such a small indiscretion

This implies that multiple Splugorth know the Sunaj want to exterminate the True Atlantean race (presumably excluding the Aerihman clan) and knowledge of that plan is probably strongly associated with knowing they at Atlanteans themselves (if not necessarily which clan of them)