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Hello, I am just hoping for some clarification. In melee combat, a roll of 1-4 is considered a miss. Is this understood to be a "natural" 1-4 is always a miss (don't consider bonuses). Considering bonuses, it would seem that even most 1st level characters would only miss in melee combat with a natural roll of "1". Thanks!

I look at it as a modified roll of X is a miss, because I don't think a constant 20%+ chance of missing no matter what is very realistic.

jburkett wrote:Hello, I am just hoping for some clarification. In melee combat, a roll of 1-4 is considered a miss. Is this understood to be a "natural" 1-4 is always a miss (don't consider bonuses). Considering bonuses, it would seem that even most 1st level characters would only miss in melee combat with a natural roll of "1". Thanks!

It is supposed to be natural roll of 1-4 always fails. If you do it as a modified roll it really just takes characters like Juicers and turns them into unstoppable killing machines. Natural failure is also a really necessary counterpoint to the critical hit rule for natural 19-20.

jburkett wrote:Hello, I am just hoping for some clarification. In melee combat, a roll of 1-4 is considered a miss. Is this understood to be a "natural" 1-4 is always a miss (don't consider bonuses). Considering bonuses, it would seem that even most 1st level characters would only miss in melee combat with a natural roll of "1". Thanks!

Rifts Ultimate Edition pg346 wrote:[b]Miss: A roll of 1-4 (after bonuses) is always a miss.
A roll of one always misses regardless of bonuses.

Emphasis in original text.

This really isn't contradicted by RUE pg339-40 when discussing the Combat Rules Step 2: Attack Rolls to Strike as it mentions that it is after bonuses. The only new thing is the result of a roll of 1.

This was always the case even in RMB, except for a Natural 1 part that was added into RUE in the glossary section (the term isn't in RMB).

And No, most 1st level characters wouldn't miss only on a natural 1, at least not unless they have some high PP bonus given WP melee weapons are typically +1 at level 1 (if even that), and HTH styles don't add strike until later levels.

ShadowLogan wrote:

jburkett wrote:Hello, I am just hoping for some clarification. In melee combat, a roll of 1-4 is considered a miss. Is this understood to be a "natural" 1-4 is always a miss (don't consider bonuses). Considering bonuses, it would seem that even most 1st level characters would only miss in melee combat with a natural roll of "1". Thanks!

Rifts Ultimate Edition pg346 wrote:[b]Miss: A roll of 1-4 (after bonuses) is always a miss.
A roll of one always misses regardless of bonuses.

Emphasis in original text.

This really isn't contradicted by RUE pg339-40 when discussing the Combat Rules Step 2: Attack Rolls to Strike as it mentions that it is after bonuses. The only new thing is the result of a roll of 1.

This was always the case even in RMB, except for a Natural 1 part that was added into RUE in the glossary section (the term isn't in RMB).

And No, most 1st level characters wouldn't miss only on a natural 1, at least not unless they have some high PP bonus given WP melee weapons are typically +1 at level 1 (if even that), and HTH styles don't add strike until later levels.

Yeah, Shadow is correct on this one. After I posted I started looking through the book and found the actual rule. I don't use this rule in my house rules combat system so I guess I just forgot what it is.

Thanks for the correction Shadow.

ShadowLogan wrote:

jburkett wrote:Hello, I am just hoping for some clarification. In melee combat, a roll of 1-4 is considered a miss. Is this understood to be a "natural" 1-4 is always a miss (don't consider bonuses). Considering bonuses, it would seem that even most 1st level characters would only miss in melee combat with a natural roll of "1". Thanks!

Rifts Ultimate Edition pg346 wrote:[b]Miss: A roll of 1-4 (after bonuses) is always a miss.
A roll of one always misses regardless of bonuses.

Emphasis in original text.

This really isn't contradicted by RUE pg339-40 when discussing the Combat Rules Step 2: Attack Rolls to Strike as it mentions that it is after bonuses. The only new thing is the result of a roll of 1.

This was always the case even in RMB, except for a Natural 1 part that was added into RUE in the glossary section (the term isn't in RMB).

And No, most 1st level characters wouldn't miss only on a natural 1, at least not unless they have some high PP bonus given WP melee weapons are typically +1 at level 1 (if even that), and HTH styles don't add strike until later levels.

Okay, thanks for the clarification. I assume then that bonuses could also be applied in Ranged Combat to achieve the minimum number to Strike ("8" according to RUE). I think that when I mentioned 1st level characters I was already jumping ahead to this Ranged Combat question. A first level character, taking an Aimed Shot (+3 to Strike) with a W.P. Laser Pistol (+1 to Strike at Level 1) could hit a target with a natural roll of "4" (4+3+1 = 8 ). Does that math add up for everyone? Thanks again!

The rule is basically one that bonuses are always added on afterwards.
THAT said, as you mention it can result in some pretty bad situations when certain builds are used as it can allow for characters that always hit and never miss (unless the optional n1 rule is used).

I have played in games that do it both ways (modified 4/8+ and natural) and they both work, they just have slightly different 'feels' to them. The slightly higher miss rate comes out in the wash because everyone PC and NPC alike has the same increased miss rate. The reduction in hits is offset by the ability to actually miss. This is especially important if your GM implements a n1 critical miss effect...

If it doesn’t SAY “Natural,” then it’s not.

If your target isn't either parrying or simultaneously attacking, they're doing it wrong!

This particular rule (1-4 AFTER bonuses) doesn't really work well based on the way that Palladium writes the rules...

What the 1-4 rule ACTUALLY represents is:

1. Natural 1 is always a miss. Natural 20 is always a hit (and I believe a critical, but I don't know if that rule is universal).

2. Base to-hit is 5+.

So, you start with a 5+ to-hit and you have a +4 to strike and your opponent has +5 to parry. Assuming these are ALL the modifiers, you need to roll a 6+ to-hit ([5+]+5-4).

For ranged weapons, if Palladium used the same language, the language would say that a roll of 1-7 AFTER BONUSES is a miss.

Sidenote:

I utilize a house rule for dodging gunfire in place of the -10 dodge.

Instead rolling to dodge, I simply apply (at the cost of one attack or no attack if the target is using auto-dodge) a penalty to the firer based on the target's attempt to dodge. Generally, I allow for an ADDITIONAL penalty equal to 1/4 of the evading target's dodge (round up) in addition to the -1 for moving and -1 for evading.

Personally, I would like to see a complete revamp of the combat rules.

Definitely with bonuses. The idea of a trained melee combatant missing someone who isn't defending themselves is laughable.

jburkett wrote:Hello, I am just hoping for some clarification. In melee combat, a roll of 1-4 is considered a miss. Is this understood to be a "natural" 1-4 is always a miss (don't consider bonuses). Considering bonuses, it would seem that even most 1st level characters would only miss in melee combat with a natural roll of "1". Thanks!

Rifts - H-to-H Combat, pg. 35 wrote:STEP 2: Attacker Rolls Strike
The next step is for the first attacker to roll a twenty-sided die. If the result is a four or less (counting bonuses), then the attacker misses.

Rifts - Combat Rules for High-Tech War Machines, pg. 38 wrote:Resolving Combat
The basic steps of resolving combat are essentially unchanged. Players must still determine initiative, roll to strike, ....

Cr'Imson

ranged combat has a target of 8 rather than 4. and ranged bonuses are less common than hth ones, especially at lower levels. but it makes sense that it would be easier to hit someone with a punch or kick than it would be to try and shoot them from dozens or hundreds of feet away.

glitterboy2098 wrote:ranged combat has a target of 8 rather than 4. and ranged bonuses are less common than hth ones, especially at lower levels. but it makes sense that it would be easier to hit someone with a punch or kick than it would be to try and shoot them from dozens or hundreds of feet away.

Rifts, pg. 40 wrote:Close Proximity Strike Bonuses
Technological advances have made war a long- range affair, with soldiers firing missiles at opponents, who appear as tiny blips on a radar screen miles away. However, the creation of battle armor, has restored the strength of the infantry, making close range combat possible. Thus, if opponents are within close proximity of one another (within 500ft/152m), they gain a bonus of + 1 to strike. This bonus applies to all combatants, skilled and unskilled, using weaponry or hand to hand combat with Robots and Power Armor. It does not apply to normal hand to hand combat among humans.

Cr'Imson

jburkett wrote:Okay, thanks for the clarification. I assume then that bonuses could also be applied in Ranged Combat to achieve the minimum number to Strike ("8" according to RUE). I think that when I mentioned 1st level characters I was already jumping ahead to this Ranged Combat question. A first level character, taking an Aimed Shot (+3 to Strike) with a W.P. Laser Pistol (+1 to Strike at Level 1) could hit a target with a natural roll of "4" (4+3+1 = 8 ). Does that math add up for everyone? Thanks again!

Aimed Shot per RUE is +2 not +3, though after adding in WP it would be +3 total in that case (assuming the E-pistol being used doesn't have a strike bonus). It should also be noted that under RUE rules an Aimed Shot will take multiple actions (2).

glitterboy2098 wrote:ranged combat has a target of 8 rather than 4. and ranged bonuses are less common than hth ones, especially at lower levels. but it makes sense that it would be easier to hit someone with a punch or kick than it would be to try and shoot them from dozens or hundreds of feet away.

Remember that the language is different between ranged and melee combat...

Melee combat: "4 or below" is a miss. This means that your target is 5+. (miss on 1-4)

Ranged combat: "8 or above" is a hit. This means your target is 8+. (miss on 1-7)

rue PG 339 wrote: The next step is for the first attacker to roll a twenty-sided die. If the result is a four or less (counting bonuses), the attacker misses. Any roll above a/our will hit the opponent, unless the defender can parry or dodge the attack.

rue pg 340 wrote:A roll of 1-4 to strike is always a miss. A roll of a Natural 20 is always a hit and a Critical Strike (double damage), unless the defender also rolls a Natural 20 to parry or dodge. Defender always wins ties.

Current rules specify it is a modified roll 1-4 misses. When rifts originally came out a natural roll of 1-4 would miss. RUE changed the core combat rules.-That is likely the source of some of the confusion.


Missile combat is the only current combat rule that does not have a target number that instructs you to add in bonuses.

Cr'Imson wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:ranged combat has a target of 8 rather than 4. and ranged bonuses are less common than hth ones, especially at lower levels. but it makes sense that it would be easier to hit someone with a punch or kick than it would be to try and shoot them from dozens or hundreds of feet away.

Rifts, pg. 40 wrote:Close Proximity Strike Bonuses
Technological advances have made war a long- range affair, with soldiers firing missiles at opponents, who appear as tiny blips on a radar screen miles away. However, the creation of battle armor, has restored the strength of the infantry, making close range combat possible. Thus, if opponents are within close proximity of one another (within 500ft/152m), they gain a bonus of + 1 to strike. This bonus applies to all combatants, skilled and unskilled, using weaponry or hand to hand combat with Robots and Power Armor. It does not apply to normal hand to hand combat among humans.

Cr'Imson

Is the CPSB rule still in effect? I thought RUE did away with it.

shadrak wrote:This particular rule (1-4 AFTER bonuses) doesn't really work well based on the way that Palladium writes the rules...

What the 1-4 rule ACTUALLY represents is:

1. Natural 1 is always a miss. Natural 20 is always a hit (and I believe a critical, but I don't know if that rule is universal).

2. Base to-hit is 5+.

So, you start with a 5+ to-hit and you have a +4 to strike and your opponent has +5 to parry. Assuming these are ALL the modifiers, you need to roll a 6+ to-hit ([5+]+5-4).

For ranged weapons, if Palladium used the same language, the language would say that a roll of 1-7 AFTER BONUSES is a miss.

Where does it say a natural 1 always misses?

Your math is off a persons parry modifier is irrelevant to a number needed to roll to hit them. To hit them you need to roll a modified 5 or higher. Parry bonus is used when your target chooses to defend themselves with a parry and is an opposed roll not a passive defense so if you have no bonus to strike and your target has a +15 to parry you would hit on a roll of 5. . So if you had a +3 to strike and rolled a 2 you would hit. (2+3 =5.) However if the defender has a +2 to parry and roll a 3 they parry your attack because all ties go to defender.

Prysus wrote:[justify]

Blue_Lion wrote:Current rules specify it is a modified roll 1-4 misses. When rifts originally came out a natural roll of 1-4 would miss. RUE changed the core combat rules.-That is likely the source of some of the confusion.

Greetings and Salutations. In my copy of RMB (11th Printing) it has the "(counting bonuses)" line as well. So it's possible this was errata added later, or I'd personally suspect that since it's a single line that it was easily missed and/or forgotten.

my sixth printing says, on pg 35, says counting bonuses.

but on pg40 under 'combat rules for high tech warmachines' in the "how to strike" section it says The Proceedure for ascertaining a strike is unchanged. The Attacker rolls a 20 sides die (1D20). a roll of a 1, 2, 3, or 4, is an automatic miss. A roll of a 5 or higher is a strike/hit., and that section does not address bonuses at all, even in the "strike bonuses" bit below it.


so the confusion might not be due to a wording change in a reprinting, rather it might be that RMB presented the same info different ways on different pages.

The Beast wrote:Is the CPSB rule still in effect? I thought RUE did away with it.

Maybe. Not fully up to date on all of the changes, yet. However, it does establish a baseline for when to apply Long-Range rolls/penalties, short any other situational bonuses/penalties.



Cr'Imson

If you have characters with bonuses so high they can never miss, you haven't dug deep enough for ways to penalize them!

guardiandashi wrote:I look at it as a modified roll of X is a miss, because I don't think a constant 20%+ chance of missing no matter what is very realistic.

Not in a game.

But have you ever shot a gun in real life?
You ever shot at someone shooting at YOU?

Its not as easy as Arnold makes it look.

glitterboy2098 wrote:

Prysus wrote:[justify]

Blue_Lion wrote:Current rules specify it is a modified roll 1-4 misses. When rifts originally came out a natural roll of 1-4 would miss. RUE changed the core combat rules.-That is likely the source of some of the confusion.

Greetings and Salutations. In my copy of RMB (11th Printing) it has the "(counting bonuses)" line as well. So it's possible this was errata added later, or I'd personally suspect that since it's a single line that it was easily missed and/or forgotten.

my sixth printing says, on pg 35, says counting bonuses.

but on pg40 under 'combat rules for high tech warmachines' in the "how to strike" section it says The Proceedure for ascertaining a strike is unchanged. The Attacker rolls a 20 sides die (1D20). a roll of a 1, 2, 3, or 4, is an automatic miss. A roll of a 5 or higher is a strike/hit., and that section does not address bonuses at all, even in the "strike bonuses" bit below it.


so the confusion might not be due to a wording change in a reprinting, rather it might be that RMB presented the same info different ways on different pages.

The confusion comes from people not understanding that Natural rolls have to be specified in order to be in the rules.
The rules say "A natural 20 is a critical strike" (or words to that effect), for example, NOT "a roll of 20."
That's because your "roll" is the die plus bonuses, unless otherwise specified.
In the combat section, it is NOT otherwise specified. It doesn't say jack about a Natural roll of 1-4 missing.
Therefore, bonuses are included.
That's the very point of bonuses, and the very point of the term "natural."

Shorty Lickens wrote:

guardiandashi wrote:I look at it as a modified roll of X is a miss, because I don't think a constant 20%+ chance of missing no matter what is very realistic.

Not in a game.

But have you ever shot a gun in real life?
You ever shot at someone shooting at YOU?

Its not as easy as Arnold makes it look.

Look at police shootings. Even in those where they aren't being shot at the miss as much as 50% of the time.

Truthfully 20% miss rate is low

You wouldn't so much need a static 20% rate of missing. That's a problem because police can consistently place good groupings on non-moving targets at close distances at a shooting range.

What you need are rough accumulating penalties based on distance and movement which inevitably lead to the percentages you're looking for, making long-distance shots at fast targets near-impossible without making close-range shots at slow targets sillily difficult.

Almost like some kind of "Speed/Range Table"

well RUE has rules for penalties based on target speed. but since they require more work and make hitting flying stuff a lot harder, a lot of Gm's chose not to use them.

According to the RMB pg.35 any roll after adds is a 4 or less it is a miss.