Forums of the Megaverse®

Normally when you dodge, it is a 1-time thing you use against a successful attack for a chance to avoid it. If you fail, the attack hits. If it's a normal dodge, this costs you an attack/action, if it's an automatic dodge, it doesn't.

In the case of someone who defends against an attack with a successful Entangle, it is specified that a Dodge is used to escape the Entangle.

In that sense, dodging is presumably NOT a one-time thing. If you failed to escape an entangle on your first go, you're presumably not trapped forever and at some point later on are able to try and roll to Dodge again to try and escape the Entangle.

Clarification's needed as to how this works with automatic dodges though, because if you could just keep rolling auto-dodge to brute-force until you get a natural 20, then auto-dodge is the ultimate nullifier of Entangles, and that seems unfair.

I don't know if any combat examples or books have ever gone into detail of Dodge v. Entangle mechanics or how they might interact with Entangle. Is it 1/round, 1/turn? Is auto-dodge even possible for continuous free escape attempts against entangles every turn or round?

If it's per turn, then when there are different numbers of attacks, is your attempts / round equal to the Entanglers or the Entangleds? Higher of two? Lesser of two?

I don't think you can machinegun dodge an entangle roll. Only one entangle roll per melee round is required to maintain the entangle, so a single dodge roll to counter it. I'd say a character with autododge gets to make his one escape attempt at no cost to his remaining attacks per round each round... Doesnt matter how many attacks per round you have if you fail that single roll to escape. You're stuck for the rest of the round.

Regarding this once/round thing, is that explicitly worded in every core book, or perhaps only some of the games?

Also, do you think this would be a "roll entangle at start of melee" thing, or keep track of which action you began Entangle on and require re-asserting it on same action next round?

As far as I know, the entangler only getting one roll per round to maintain the entangle is in all of the core books for how entangle works. But infinite autododges per round seems like its failing the 'use your common sense' aspect of the game. Suddenly an autododge character becomes the tazmanian devil and jacks 50 escape attempts into 15 seconds seems a little silly. Not as silly as a character with 15 attacks per round spending all 15 of those attacks in 'attempt to escape' dodge rolls. Still doesnt feel right to me personally to allow more than one dodge roll per round against an ability that is only allowed one entangle roll per round. It would be the only place in the game where one could pile multiple defense rolls against a single attack. I can't find such a precedent set in any other rule. One cannot multiautododge a single thrown knife attack.

Being entangled seems to be limiting your physical attacks per round to the escape attempt, and though escaping does use the dodge 'metric' for resolution, it does not seem like its an actual dodge, so it doesnt feel like it should fall under the umbrella of autododge mechanics at all, but again. We're dancin into that territory of no I cant find a single place in the book that says any of those positions is 'the one true way'. Definitely a mother may I fiat situation. They just as clearly don't state that you can't as clearly as they don't state that you can. Not spelling it out puts it roundly into fiat territory.

The good news is that the entangler has to reroll his entangle roll each round as well, so escaping them shouldnt be that tough long term. Its a hard enough move to pull off and maintain, I see no reason to grease the wheels for the escaper. It would trivialize entangle as a maneuver.

I would allow that dodge roll to be an autododge if the character could do them, but I personally wouldnt let them do it twice per round.

As a side note, simultaneous attack does not allow entangle as the offensive action OR a defensive action, and if we're being honest, entangle in ninjas and superspies at least is written in a way that suggests its a defensive action only, not an offensive one. The DEFENDER can attempt to trap. So entangle as an offense not really a thing at least in terms of martial art techniques. With those things in mind what they're implying is that your character attempted an attack, and then someone defended against your attack with an entangle, so your initial action in the exchange was an offensive one. Getting to fire up autodoge when you're the initial attacker also seems kinda silly.

As if to say 'I'm going to do a combination parry attack, but my attack will be one thing and my parry will be autoparry!'

The language in 'combination moves' in ninjas and superspies DOES specifically have language that 'no other automatic moves are possible' (and also cannot be knockouts and deathblows)... It also states that dodges when used in a combination move do not get dodge bonuses. But again. Just because escaping an entangle is resolved against dodge mechanics doesnt necessarily mean they are themselves 'dodges'.

Further, In ninjas and superspies anyway, under automatic dodge: 'Automatic dodge DOES use one melee attack and it must be the characters first attack of the meelee round. What if you character loses the initiative? Sorry, you cant use automatic dodge "against that first attack"!?!?!? (which is wierd, since you also cant set up autododge on your SECOND attack of the round since it clearly states that it must be the first attack in the round). So you'd have needed to win initiative, then use your first attack to set up autododge, before the entangle happens in the first place. LOL.

Thats clearly a much harder situation to set up, so in that case I may very well allow someone who's gone to all that trouble to roll autododges against the entangle. You basically wasted the first attack of initiative that you won 'holding your action' in anticipation of an entangle in response to your second attack'...

Autododge no longer seems to need these special conditions in 2005's rifts core ultimate or 2009's dead reign though.

I think the way it might work is that initiating an entangle is always done as a defense (it wins ties against attacks) but then maintaining it in subsequent rounds would count as an attack, since a defense is used to oppose it to try and escape.

Vincent Takeda wrote:Further, In ninjas and superspies anyway, under automatic dodge: 'Automatic dodge DOES use one melee attack and it must be the characters first attack of the meelee round. What if you character loses the initiative? Sorry, you cant use automatic dodge "against that first attack"!?!?!? (which is wierd, since you also cant set up autododge on your SECOND attack of the round since it clearly states that it must be the first attack in the round). So you'd have needed to win initiative, then use your first attack to set up autododge, before the entangle happens in the first place. LOL.

Thats clearly a much harder situation to set up, so in that case I may very well allow someone who's gone to all that trouble to roll autododges against the entangle. You basically wasted the first attack of initiative that you won 'holding your action' in anticipation of an entangle in response to your second attack'...

Autododge no longer seems to need these special conditions in 2005's rifts core ultimate or 2009's dead reign though.

For Ninjas and Superspies in the example you would STILL be using it as the characters first attack of the round. If they are player A it would go like this
Player A wins initiative
PA Action #1 Autododge
PB Action #1 Whatever

Player B wins
PB Action #1 Attack player A
PA Action #1 Autododge all future attacks

Juicers with N&SS art providing auto-dodge.... double autododge?

Axelmania wrote:Juicers with N&SS art providing auto-dodge.... double autododge?

Nope.
You can only make one defense roll against an attack. This is why you can not make an 'action dodge' or a parry if your autododge fails.
attacker rolls to strike,
If they strike defender chooses to roll a defense.
There is no "if that defense roll fails, pick another untill you run out of options" if it fails you go straight to damage.

Axelmania wrote:Juicers with N&SS art providing auto-dodge.... double autododge?

lol
Nope!

The martial Arts autododge would be effectively useless, BUT any bonuses to autododge from the martial art should count toward the Juicer autododge.
So there's that.

As a GM I would never allow autododge as a defense against an ongoing entangle. The idea of an autododge is that the character is either super fast or has otherwise superior reflexes. These may allow the character to sidestep a blade or, maybe, a bullet, but should not be applied to an entangle-in-progress. I don't care how fast your character is, if your hands are pinned, you cannot duck your way out of it. Maybe an autododge as the defense against the initial grapple attempt, depending on the circumstances and method of entangle, but not to slip it once the entangle has begun.

eliakon wrote:You can only make one defense roll against an attack. This is why you can not make an 'action dodge' or a parry if your autododge fails.

What about dodge / roll with impact?

Also I seem to recall there being a N&SS defensive kata which says you get a Group Dodge + Circular Parry against all attacks, so that might be one exception where you get to roll twice.

Axelmania wrote:

eliakon wrote:You can only make one defense roll against an attack. This is why you can not make an 'action dodge' or a parry if your autododge fails.

What about dodge / roll with impact?

Also I seem to recall there being a N&SS defensive kata which says you get a Group Dodge + Circular Parry against all attacks, so that might be one exception where you get to roll twice.

Roll with impact isn't a defense roll. it is a mitigation roll that you apply after failing a defense roll.
And special abilities that violate the normal rules are just that... special exceptions, they don't allow anyone else to do that just them.