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HWalsh wrote:So what's the deal? Are base classes just hated? I do not understand.

HWalsh wrote:This just strikes me as odd...

There are some truly great base OCCs in Rifts, yet even new players seem to hate them. I don't see why.

I've been playing Rifts since like 1997. I guess I got all the funkiness out of my system. I don't know.

Why do I need a Temporal Wizard when a Ley Line Walker is perfectly fine? What's wrong with a Glitterboy pilot? Why do you need a Knight of the White Rose when you can play a Cyber-Knight, or maybe s True Atlantean Undead Slayer (albeit that isn't a base class, but I've only been in 3 games in 22 years that didn't have one). Why are Bursters and Mind Melters so avoided? Even a Vagabond can be s blast.

So what's the deal? Are base classes just hated? I do not understand.

torjones wrote:

HWalsh wrote:So what's the deal? Are base classes just hated? I do not understand.

That is not something that I've encountered. The classes from the Rifts Main Book are some of the best classes out there. Most of the time, 2/3rds of my groups will wind up playing one of those OCCs, unless we are playing somewhere like Japan or something, but even when playing something like New West, I might get one extra player going for the local character. For pretty much any game I've either played in or run in the central region of the North American Continent, I'll often see a borg/juicer/RPA or some other generic gun-bunny type character, an Operator or maybe a city rat if we are in a city campaign, a line walker or mind melter, and something completely random. Depending on who is at the table, and if we have any newbies, I might even see a GB Pilot or some giant robot pilot. Once you get above 6 players though, you start seeing more variety, and more branching out into additional books, just to have something unique to play, or at least, that's my experience.

Equipment and gear on the other hand... Some people seem to have this blind spot that newer gear has to be better than the older gear, but one of the best guns in the game is the NG-P7 and it was introduced in RMB. Armor is a bit more variable, assuming that you don't just want to sub-in CS EBA. The two NG books were needed for a long time, I think, and the Black Market book was another good gap-filler. I still have a binder full of adventuring gear I've written up over the past 20 years of GMing, but at least now I don't feel like I have to drag it out for every game. I always felt that a lot of little things were missing from the game until those three books came out.

HWalsh wrote:This just strikes me as odd...

There are some truly great base OCCs in Rifts, yet even new players seem to hate them. I don't see why.

I've been playing Rifts since like 1997. I guess I got all the funkiness out of my system. I don't know.

Why do I need a Temporal Wizard when a Ley Line Walker is perfectly fine? What's wrong with a Glitterboy pilot? Why do you need a Knight of the White Rose when you can play a Cyber-Knight, or maybe s True Atlantean Undead Slayer (albeit that isn't a base class, but I've only been in 3 games in 22 years that didn't have one). Why are Bursters and Mind Melters so avoided? Even a Vagabond can be s blast.

So what's the deal? Are base classes just hated? I do not understand.

Hotrod wrote:I've always thought that Body Fixers were lame. In a world of MDC, serious wounds require a cyber-doc or magic, and disease isn't a significant part of the game, so the primary role of this class doesn't come up during gameplay. I've never seen anyone play one. Ever.

Hotrod wrote:I dislike Crazies. I've heard of one or two cases of a person playing one well, but I've never seen it done. The only crazies I've seen played were by people with the personality of a troll using their characters as a free license to act like trolls. The Crazy O.C.C. is the Kender of Rifts.

Hotrod wrote:Elemental Fusionists have never held any appeal to me. Their magic section is incomplete, they don't show up anywhere else except in a video game that almost no-one has played, and Bursters are far more compelling.
Pretty much everything else, though? Awesome.

I can't disagree with you about the fusionist either. Then again, I never much cared for the Warlocks, so I can't really tell if it's an improvement or not over the original non-psychic OCC. They might make a tiny bit more sense in PF, but honestly, I'd still rather play pretty much anything else, LLW, Shifter, TW, Diabolist, all far more interesting to me than the Warlocks and Fusionists, and if you want a PCC, Bursters and Melters are more interesting. Though, to be honest, one of my favorite PCCs is the Neo-Human. I love flying, they are one of the best healers on Rifts Earth, and they are just as competent at ass kicking as most other characters. Any way you want to play them, you can. Lots of fun to play. (even if they aren't from the RMB)

Warshield73 wrote:I do agree that trolls can be drawn to the Crazy, and few other players are, but I have seen a few people play it well and it is a solid OCC with lots of depth and great versatility of powers and skills. It might be a little old school now but I remember when RMB came out. Of the 7 people who made characters for my original group 3 of them had crazy on there final list. I have a hard time GMing this OCC but it's still a solid OCC.

Warshield73 wrote:The criticism of the Glitter Boy seems out of whack. I understand how some people can call it over powered but meh? The GB is a great armor, the OCC has great skills - military, espionage, rogue, and lore skills. Every group I have ever run on Rifts Earth has had a GB pilot in it. You add in the "Descended" option from RUE and it only gets better.

Warshield73 wrote:While I agree that the Rogue Scientist is a better choice for S&A the Body Fixer is still great. Since the CB1 came out in 1991 people in body armor and light power armor have been taking SDC damage from big physical hits and magic/psi healing is not always available. Also, if you have a Body Fixer in your group (just like an Operator) you can be welcomed into any community. They have a lot of skills and can pilot anything including robots and power armor so they can function in combat. I have never had a player run this OCC but it would work as well as any other S&A.

Hotrod wrote:The GB inverts the issue I have with the Crazy. It adds a distinctive capability to a group, and its concept is sound. Where it fails is in the development of the character. The emphasis is 80% on the armor, 20% on the character who drives it. How do GB pilots keep their suits up and running? What happens when a GB pilot's suit gets smashed? Is there a "GB Pilot culture?" If so, how does it work? What sorts of rules do they have? What makes GB pilots tick? The lack of good canon answers to these question are at the heart of my issue with this O.C.C. An O.C.C.'s fluff should give the reader a strong idea of that type of character's way of life. As written, there's not enough to genuinely distinguish a conventional power armor pilot who happens to pilot a Glitter Boy from a Glitter Boy O.C.C.

Warshield73 wrote:I have to say that most of the players I've had, when the game is set in North America, have run OCCs from first RMB and then RUE. Even when I tried to get an Underseas game running, I tried to do a game exploring the Pacific Rim in a Trident sub, when they had OCC's from Japan & Australia to choose from 4 of the 6 went to RMB OCCs. My most recent attempt to get a gaming group going with 5 players, 4 new to rifts, a few years ago I asked them to give me what they wanted in a character and I gave them a list of OCCs that they might like. Those lists always included a few OCCs from the Merc books and WBs but all 5 ran OCCs from RUE.

I think these are among the most versatile and solid OCCs in the books and they just draw players in. They are also, and I hate to use this word, generic enough where they can fit almost anywhere in the world where as a lot of the OCCs found in the WBs just aren't.

I have to disagree with some of the criticisms in here though:

I do agree that trolls can be drawn to the Crazy, and few other players are, but I have seen a few people play it well and it is a solid OCC with lots of depth and great versatility of powers and skills. It might be a little old school now but I remember when RMB came out. Of the 7 people who made characters for my original group 3 of them had crazy on there final list. I have a hard time GMing this OCC but it's still a solid OCC.

The criticism of the Glitter Boy seems out of whack. I understand how some people can call it over powered but meh? The GB is a great armor, the OCC has great skills - military, espionage, rogue, and lore skills. Every group I have ever run on Rifts Earth has had a GB pilot in it. You add in the "Descended" option from RUE and it only gets better.

While I agree that the Rogue Scientist is a better choice for S&A the Body Fixer is still great. Since the CB1 came out in 1991 people in body armor and light power armor have been taking SDC damage from big physical hits and magic/psi healing is not always available. Also, if you have a Body Fixer in your group (just like an Operator) you can be welcomed into any community. They have a lot of skills and can pilot anything including robots and power armor so they can function in combat. I have never had a player run this OCC but it would work as well as any other S&A.

Hotrod wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:I do agree that trolls can be drawn to the Crazy, and few other players are, but I have seen a few people play it well and it is a solid OCC with lots of depth and great versatility of powers and skills. It might be a little old school now but I remember when RMB came out. Of the 7 people who made characters for my original group 3 of them had crazy on there final list. I have a hard time GMing this OCC but it's still a solid OCC.

I like how developed the class is. I just find that, in practice, its distinctiveness causes aggravation and discord to gaming sessions, and it adds no gaming or roleplaying benefit.; its capabilities and many of its themes are redundant with juicers. I acknowledge that it's possible to play it well; I just haven't seen it done.

Warshield73 wrote:The criticism of the Glitter Boy seems out of whack. I understand how some people can call it over powered but meh? The GB is a great armor, the OCC has great skills - military, espionage, rogue, and lore skills. Every group I have ever run on Rifts Earth has had a GB pilot in it. You add in the "Descended" option from RUE and it only gets better.

The GB inverts the issue I have with the Crazy. It adds a distinctive capability to a group, and its concept is sound. Where it fails is in the development of the character. The emphasis is 80% on the armor, 20% on the character who drives it. How do GB pilots keep their suits up and running? What happens when a GB pilot's suit gets smashed? Is there a "GB Pilot culture?" If so, how does it work? What sorts of rules do they have? What makes GB pilots tick? The lack of good canon answers to these question are at the heart of my issue with this O.C.C. An O.C.C.'s fluff should give the reader a strong idea of that type of character's way of life. As written, there's not enough to genuinely distinguish a conventional power armor pilot who happens to pilot a Glitter Boy from a Glitter Boy O.C.C.

Warshield73 wrote:While I agree that the Rogue Scientist is a better choice for S&A the Body Fixer is still great. Since the CB1 came out in 1991 people in body armor and light power armor have been taking SDC damage from big physical hits and magic/psi healing is not always available. Also, if you have a Body Fixer in your group (just like an Operator) you can be welcomed into any community. They have a lot of skills and can pilot anything including robots and power armor so they can function in combat. I have never had a player run this OCC but it would work as well as any other S&A.

The primary function of the class is to cure diseases and treat injuries. Diseases hardly ever come up in Rifts, and the Body Fixer is out-classed in treating injuries by healing psionics, healing magic, cybernetics, and gizmos that require no medical skill whatsoever. Body Fixers can't effectively get severely injured people back to full capability, because severe injuries tend to involve loss of limbs, paralysis, deafness, blindness, and other conditions that Body Fixers cannot fix.

I agree that there's nothing intrinsically bad about the class. I'd have no objection to a player who wants to play one, and it could actually be interesting to have a medically-focused adventure/campaign. There's a reason why people like hospital shows, after all. Rifts isn't designed for that kind of gameplay. Players generally want to play O.C.C.'s that bring something special and useful to a group. If they don't, well, that's what the Vagabond O.C.C. is for (and Vagabonds with healing psionics > body fixers at healing).

The "people are welcoming" aspect of the class can be neat from a roleplay perspective, but this isn't unique to Body Fixers. Cyber-Docs, Cyber-Knights, and Glitter Boys are also favorably viewed and often welcomed. If the party becomes well-established/famous, they may be welcomed regardless of their O.C.C.

HWalsh wrote:Why do I need a Temporal Wizard when a Ley Line Walker is perfectly fine?

HWalsh wrote:What's wrong with a Glitterboy pilot?

HWalsh wrote:Why do you need a Knight of the White Rose when you can play a Cyber-Knight

HWalsh wrote:Why are Bursters and Mind Melters so avoided?

kaid wrote:On your points about the glitterboy that is actually one of the really interesting parts of them is that you basically at level 1 start having "won the game" you already have the biggest most bad ass power armor you are ever likely to own. Their game play is not like most people the hunt to acquire such a thing but theirs is the struggle and hardship of KEEPING what they have. Their money their resources get deeply sunk into repairing and resuppling their armor. It winds up with an interesting dynamic where they start off as billy bad ass but as they progress they wind up having to be a lot smarter and a lot more tactical in how/when/where they use their glitterboy least they get it totally wrecked.

kaid wrote:

Hotrod wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:The criticism of the Glitter Boy seems out of whack. I understand how some people can call it over powered but meh? The GB is a great armor, the OCC has great skills - military, espionage, rogue, and lore skills. Every group I have ever run on Rifts Earth has had a GB pilot in it. You add in the "Descended" option from RUE and it only gets better.

The GB inverts the issue I have with the Crazy. It adds a distinctive capability to a group, and its concept is sound. Where it fails is in the development of the character. The emphasis is 80% on the armor, 20% on the character who drives it. How do GB pilots keep their suits up and running? What happens when a GB pilot's suit gets smashed? Is there a "GB Pilot culture?" If so, how does it work? What sorts of rules do they have? What makes GB pilots tick? The lack of good canon answers to these question are at the heart of my issue with this O.C.C. An O.C.C.'s fluff should give the reader a strong idea of that type of character's way of life. As written, there's not enough to genuinely distinguish a conventional power armor pilot who happens to pilot a Glitter Boy from a Glitter Boy O.C.C.

On your points about the glitterboy that is actually one of the really interesting parts of them is that you basically at level 1 start having "won the game" you already have the biggest most bad ass power armor you are ever likely to own. Their game play is not like most people the hunt to acquire such a thing but theirs is the struggle and hardship of KEEPING what they have. Their money their resources get deeply sunk into repairing and resuppling their armor. It winds up with an interesting dynamic where they start off as billy bad ass but as they progress they wind up having to be a lot smarter and a lot more tactical in how/when/where they use their glitterboy least they get it totally wrecked.

Warshield73 wrote:

kaid wrote:

Hotrod wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:The criticism of the Glitter Boy seems out of whack. I understand how some people can call it over powered but meh? The GB is a great armor, the OCC has great skills - military, espionage, rogue, and lore skills. Every group I have ever run on Rifts Earth has had a GB pilot in it. You add in the "Descended" option from RUE and it only gets better.

The GB inverts the issue I have with the Crazy. It adds a distinctive capability to a group, and its concept is sound. Where it fails is in the development of the character. The emphasis is 80% on the armor, 20% on the character who drives it. How do GB pilots keep their suits up and running? What happens when a GB pilot's suit gets smashed? Is there a "GB Pilot culture?" If so, how does it work? What sorts of rules do they have? What makes GB pilots tick? The lack of good canon answers to these question are at the heart of my issue with this O.C.C. An O.C.C.'s fluff should give the reader a strong idea of that type of character's way of life. As written, there's not enough to genuinely distinguish a conventional power armor pilot who happens to pilot a Glitter Boy from a Glitter Boy O.C.C.

On your points about the glitterboy that is actually one of the really interesting parts of them is that you basically at level 1 start having "won the game" you already have the biggest most bad ass power armor you are ever likely to own. Their game play is not like most people the hunt to acquire such a thing but theirs is the struggle and hardship of KEEPING what they have. Their money their resources get deeply sunk into repairing and resuppling their armor. It winds up with an interesting dynamic where they start off as billy bad ass but as they progress they wind up having to be a lot smarter and a lot more tactical in how/when/where they use their glitterboy least they get it totally wrecked.

I hear this a lot from people but the GB starts as the primary target in almost every game. Not just in combat but thieves are drawn to it and even monsters due to the reputation of the GB. This results in what you pointed out in that GB pilots have to invest everything they get into keeping and maintaining there asset. They are also the only one of the base OCCs in Rue, and one of the few in all the books, that is defined by something they can loose. The only way a Cyber-knight stops being a Cyber-Knight is to die. Same with a LLW or dog boy but if you are a GB pilot and you loose your GB what are you? This makes you far more dependent on your gear than most other OCCs and can limit you in some ways.

Riftmaker wrote:I have a saying for rifts Mind melters always work.

They had the smallest revamp in URE.

DhAkael wrote:* Line walkers are always a good solid stand by mage class.
* Cyberknights (with or without the anti-CS 'ZEN' crap) have the most skills at CharGen of any other base OCC.
* GB's are a pigeon-holed niche class, but an enterprising and "CREATIVE" (note that word... CREATIVE) player can do wonders with it.
* Juicers are still great for throwaway PC's, as long as you remember they get auto-dodge and better AD bonuses than Crazies.
* Robot / Power suit pilots, natch if you don't want to be beholden to the 'murrican Nazi's (CS)or the German Republicans.
* Full conversion borgs (now that they have given them full Robot PS...Finally...) are also a no brainer.
* Rogue Shcolars actually have BETTER science skills than the RS, go figure...

So yeah, there are a few base PC classes that actually work. Heck, I had someone play a Vagabond who helped stave off an Infernal siege on a badly compromised base...and live.

I guess among the veteran players, it is "been there, done that." While NEWBS just wanna wanna min-max and play the baddest mutha's on the block (I tend to stomp those players down hard with "They are listed as optional...and I do not have them as an option. At least until you've proven you can ROLE play as opposed to Roll-Play."

But there is still love for the baseline OCC's; just have to have players and a GM willing to give'em a chance.

DhAkael wrote:* GB's are a pigeon-holed niche class, but an enterprising and "CREATIVE" (note that word... CREATIVE) player can do wonders with it.

DhAkael wrote:* Rogue Shcolars actually have BETTER science skills than the RS, go figure...

DhAkael wrote:* Line walkers are always a good solid stand by mage class.
* Cyberknights (with or without the anti-CS 'ZEN' crap) have the most skills at CharGen of any other base OCC.
* GB's are a pigeon-holed niche class, but an enterprising and "CREATIVE" (note that word... CREATIVE) player can do wonders with it.
* Juicers are still great for throwaway PC's, as long as you remember they get auto-dodge and better AD bonuses than Crazies.
* Robot / Power suit pilots, natch if you don't want to be beholden to the 'murrican Nazi's (CS)or the German Republicans.
* Full conversion borgs (now that they have given them full Robot PS...Finally...) are also a no brainer.
* Rogue Shcolars actually have BETTER science skills than the RS, go figure...

So yeah, there are a few base PC classes that actually work. Heck, I had someone play a Vagabond who helped stave off an Infernal siege on a badly compromised base...and live.

I guess among the veteran players, it is "been there, done that." While NEWBS just wanna wanna min-max and play the baddest mutha's on the block (I tend to stomp those players down hard with "They are listed as optional...and I do not have them as an option. At least until you've proven you can ROLE play as opposed to Roll-Play."



But there is still love for the baseline OCC's; just have to have players and a GM willing to give'em a chance.

kaid wrote:Even without robot strength full conversion borgs were always a great option. With the extra strap on armor applied the real tanky full conversion borgs are second in combat survivability only to glitterboys. Also the extra cybor armor is pretty cheap relatively speaking so its a lot easier for a cyborg to ditch a spent or nearly spent set of it and pick up a new one than it is to repair power armor/robot vehicles of a comparable amount of damage. Seriously that extra armor add on stuff is crazy its like hey I am already one of the biggest toughest MOFO's around so lets just slap a samas to my chest for some extra protection.

Hotrod wrote:

kaid wrote:Even without robot strength full conversion borgs were always a great option. With the extra strap on armor applied the real tanky full conversion borgs are second in combat survivability only to glitterboys. Also the extra cybor armor is pretty cheap relatively speaking so its a lot easier for a cyborg to ditch a spent or nearly spent set of it and pick up a new one than it is to repair power armor/robot vehicles of a comparable amount of damage. Seriously that extra armor add on stuff is crazy its like hey I am already one of the biggest toughest MOFO's around so lets just slap a samas to my chest for some extra protection.

Seconding this. Though I've never played one, the flexibility and power of the combat cyborg became apparent to me when I created it as an N.P.C. generator. Between the firepower and armor of the heavier classes and the mobility and covert capabilities of the lighter classes, I've found that even the stock version and the three basic variants can make for some memorable challenges.

Warshield73 wrote:

Hotrod wrote:

kaid wrote:Even without robot strength full conversion borgs were always a great option. With the extra strap on armor applied the real tanky full conversion borgs are second in combat survivability only to glitterboys. Also the extra cybor armor is pretty cheap relatively speaking so its a lot easier for a cyborg to ditch a spent or nearly spent set of it and pick up a new one than it is to repair power armor/robot vehicles of a comparable amount of damage. Seriously that extra armor add on stuff is crazy its like hey I am already one of the biggest toughest MOFO's around so lets just slap a samas to my chest for some extra protection.

Seconding this. Though I've never played one, the flexibility and power of the combat cyborg became apparent to me when I created it as an N.P.C. generator. Between the firepower and armor of the heavier classes and the mobility and covert capabilities of the lighter classes, I've found that even the stock version and the three basic variants can make for some memorable challenges.

I use a full con borg as an adversary in a lot of my con games. A few years ago the players took out every other merc in the band except the borg. The borg had so much MDC that the mage just hit him with carpet of adhesion and they ran away from him, which I had to admit saved a lot of time.

kaid wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:

Hotrod wrote:

kaid wrote:Even without robot strength full conversion borgs were always a great option. With the extra strap on armor applied the real tanky full conversion borgs are second in combat survivability only to glitterboys. Also the extra cybor armor is pretty cheap relatively speaking so its a lot easier for a cyborg to ditch a spent or nearly spent set of it and pick up a new one than it is to repair power armor/robot vehicles of a comparable amount of damage. Seriously that extra armor add on stuff is crazy its like hey I am already one of the biggest toughest MOFO's around so lets just slap a samas to my chest for some extra protection.

Seconding this. Though I've never played one, the flexibility and power of the combat cyborg became apparent to me when I created it as an N.P.C. generator. Between the firepower and armor of the heavier classes and the mobility and covert capabilities of the lighter classes, I've found that even the stock version and the three basic variants can make for some memorable challenges.

I use a full con borg as an adversary in a lot of my con games. A few years ago the players took out every other merc in the band except the borg. The borg had so much MDC that the mage just hit him with carpet of adhesion and they ran away from him, which I had to admit saved a lot of time.

Hehe better hope that lasts long enough. Even the slowest of combat cyborgs are still pretty damn quick.

dreicunan wrote:

kaid wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:

Hotrod wrote:

kaid wrote:Even without robot strength full conversion borgs were always a great option. With the extra strap on armor applied the real tanky full conversion borgs are second in combat survivability only to glitterboys. Also the extra cybor armor is pretty cheap relatively speaking so its a lot easier for a cyborg to ditch a spent or nearly spent set of it and pick up a new one than it is to repair power armor/robot vehicles of a comparable amount of damage. Seriously that extra armor add on stuff is crazy its like hey I am already one of the biggest toughest MOFO's around so lets just slap a samas to my chest for some extra protection.

Seconding this. Though I've never played one, the flexibility and power of the combat cyborg became apparent to me when I created it as an N.P.C. generator. Between the firepower and armor of the heavier classes and the mobility and covert capabilities of the lighter classes, I've found that even the stock version and the three basic variants can make for some memorable challenges.

I use a full con borg as an adversary in a lot of my con games. A few years ago the players took out every other merc in the band except the borg. The borg had so much MDC that the mage just hit him with carpet of adhesion and they ran away from him, which I had to admit saved a lot of time.

Hehe better hope that lasts long enough. Even the slowest of combat cyborgs are still pretty damn quick.

Indeed, that is another thing that I've noticed many people forget about Combat Cyborgs - not only are they massive hunks of machinery that can take a pounding, they are also often quite agile (minimum PP of 18, only 32,000 credits to upgrade that to the max of 26 for the arms (legs are only max 24, so your kicks won't be quite as accurate as your punches...and I've got a different post to make now) and can keep up with, if not outrun, many vehicles (minimum speed of 132/90mph)!

Hotrod wrote:One other deeply-flawed O.C.C. is the Cyber-Knight. In terms of the fluff, I love it; it's a richly-developed O.C.C. and way of life. Zen combat, however, is an abomination that effectively turns them into anti-tech warriors so that they could be really good against the C.S. in the Siege on Tolkeen. It's also a broken, unworkable, nonsensical mess that I have never seen properly applied in a Rifts game. I want to kill Zen Combat with fire and dump its ashes in a cesspool.

kaid wrote:

Hotrod wrote:One other deeply-flawed O.C.C. is the Cyber-Knight. In terms of the fluff, I love it; it's a richly-developed O.C.C. and way of life. Zen combat, however, is an abomination that effectively turns them into anti-tech warriors so that they could be really good against the C.S. in the Siege on Tolkeen. It's also a broken, unworkable, nonsensical mess that I have never seen properly applied in a Rifts game. I want to kill Zen Combat with fire and dump its ashes in a cesspool.

I honestly like the savage rifts take on them a bit better than the RUE varient. Where they are almost more like splicer technojackers where their anti tech powers are nanite driven. So their living cyberarmor is nanite driven not some weird technomagical cybernetic thing.

Hotrod wrote:

kaid wrote:

Hotrod wrote:One other deeply-flawed O.C.C. is the Cyber-Knight. In terms of the fluff, I love it; it's a richly-developed O.C.C. and way of life. Zen combat, however, is an abomination that effectively turns them into anti-tech warriors so that they could be really good against the C.S. in the Siege on Tolkeen. It's also a broken, unworkable, nonsensical mess that I have never seen properly applied in a Rifts game. I want to kill Zen Combat with fire and dump its ashes in a cesspool.

I honestly like the savage rifts take on them a bit better than the RUE varient. Where they are almost more like splicer technojackers where their anti tech powers are nanite driven. So their living cyberarmor is nanite driven not some weird technomagical cybernetic thing.

I do as well, though I should mention that I'm not against CKs having some anti-tech capabilities. If I were redesigning the class, I'd give them anti-tech abilities as one optional specialization branch, to which I'd add an anti-supernatural specialization branch and one or two others (psi-sword abilities, cyber-armor upgrades, possibly others).

kaid wrote:

Hotrod wrote:

kaid wrote:

Hotrod wrote:One other deeply-flawed O.C.C. is the Cyber-Knight. In terms of the fluff, I love it; it's a richly-developed O.C.C. and way of life. Zen combat, however, is an abomination that effectively turns them into anti-tech warriors so that they could be really good against the C.S. in the Siege on Tolkeen. It's also a broken, unworkable, nonsensical mess that I have never seen properly applied in a Rifts game. I want to kill Zen Combat with fire and dump its ashes in a cesspool.

I honestly like the savage rifts take on them a bit better than the RUE varient. Where they are almost more like splicer technojackers where their anti tech powers are nanite driven. So their living cyberarmor is nanite driven not some weird technomagical cybernetic thing.

I do as well, though I should mention that I'm not against CKs having some anti-tech capabilities. If I were redesigning the class, I'd give them anti-tech abilities as one optional specialization branch, to which I'd add an anti-supernatural specialization branch and one or two others (psi-sword abilities, cyber-armor upgrades, possibly others).

The rifter update of the technojacker for splicers is an excellent template for a highly specialized anti tech warrior that hits most of the points of a cyber knight other than psionics.

Axelmania wrote:Coake hates tech and the CS, unsurprising focus IMO from a D-Bee invention.

Hotrod wrote:

Axelmania wrote:Coake hates tech and the CS, unsurprising focus IMO from a D-Bee invention.

I don't think SoT4 supports that position. Per his N.P.C. description, he likes particle beam rifles of any type, Wilk's Laser Rifles, Vibro blades (??) and the Neural Mace. As for his stance on the Coalition, he didn't choose to fight with Tolkeen against them, and Coake himself led the effort to rescue Lady Prosek from Alistair Dunscon.

HWalsh wrote:This just strikes me as odd...

There are some truly great base OCCs in Rifts, yet even new players seem to hate them. I don't see why.

I've been playing Rifts since like 1997. I guess I got all the funkiness out of my system. I don't know.

Why do I need a Temporal Wizard when a Ley Line Walker is perfectly fine? What's wrong with a Glitterboy pilot? Why do you need a Knight of the White Rose when you can play a Cyber-Knight, or maybe s True Atlantean Undead Slayer (albeit that isn't a base class, but I've only been in 3 games in 22 years that didn't have one). Why are Bursters and Mind Melters so avoided? Even a Vagabond can be s blast.

So what's the deal? Are base classes just hated? I do not understand.

HWalsh wrote:Though him hating the CS makes sense. They're Nazis. Nazis are evil with little to no redeeming values save for those who leave it. They're the big bad of North America. Coake is uber good. They're bound to clash.

Even the least evil CS member is all about Genocide. Coake is going to oppose it. Anyone with the least bit of common sense and a moral compassion would. Coake is among the most compassionate and good in Rifts. They're diametrically opposed.

The only reason he didn't jump in on Tolkeen's side was his belief that the Cyber-Knight order must remain politically neutral.

Shark_Force wrote:

HWalsh wrote:Though him hating the CS makes sense. They're Nazis. Nazis are evil with little to no redeeming values save for those who leave it. They're the big bad of North America. Coake is uber good. They're bound to clash.

Even the least evil CS member is all about Genocide. Coake is going to oppose it. Anyone with the least bit of common sense and a moral compassion would. Coake is among the most compassionate and good in Rifts. They're diametrically opposed.

The only reason he didn't jump in on Tolkeen's side was his belief that the Cyber-Knight order must remain politically neutral.

eh, he was probably at least as strongly opposed on the basis that tolkeen were also dumb enough to ally with demons, and it is blindingly obvious to anyone that isn't monumentally stupid that such an alliance was going to lead to a battle between two groups, neither of which are actually good. probably more so, really... he has no rules that the cyber-knights must not oppose the CS. in fact, they probably clash fairly often. but that doesn't mean he's in favour of doing everything and anything against the CS no matter how evil it is.

HWalsh wrote:Even the least evil CS member is all about Genocide. Coake is going to oppose it. Anyone with the least bit of common sense and a moral compassion would.

Hotrod wrote:

HWalsh wrote:Even the least evil CS member is all about Genocide. Coake is going to oppose it. Anyone with the least bit of common sense and a moral compassion would.

Citation needed. Please provide some canon reference to the effect that all citizens of the CS are "all about genocide."

Also, and this is a minor semantic point, I don't think the slaughter of other species is properly called genocide. Xenocide might be a more fitting term. Of course, if those species are sentient, there's probably not much moral difference.