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Axelmania wrote:I always figured the objections to SA were more about self-healing borgs (anti-monsters) the powerful psychic cats and "free power armor for PPE" bio-mancers.

SA2 would be the "free monsters without tats" nazca and more powerful psychic mutants.

Captain_Nibbz wrote:Interesting take on things. I've never gotten my hands on a copy of either of the South America books, but I have heard a lot of people talking about how overpowered everything was over the years. It will be interesting to see you continue on with this balance review. I'll be staying tuned!

Axelmania wrote:I always figured the objections to SA were more about self-healing borgs (anti-monsters) the powerful psychic cats and "free power armor for PPE" bio-mancers.

SA2 would be the "free monsters without tats" nazca and more powerful psychic mutants.

Axelmania wrote:I don't think it endangers the balance of power in the world in any way if the GM can invent reasons that would keep those things localized.

IMO the worldwide impact of "Underseas" potentially arming millions of dolphins with permanent 150 MDC help armor that they can freely bestow upon seaside-visiting allies is actually much more disruptive to the power balance than SA1+SA2 combined. We at least know that Spellsongs can be cast in a given amount of time...

Can't remember how long it's supposed to take to make Bio-Armor (Chitin or Wood) but those require certain environmental types to be built, and are a lot more expensive. I think the amount of biomancers in the world is also far more limited, and they're far less mobile than the Whale Singers.

Byzantine_Basileus wrote:Colombia – RC-15 Laser Rifle
The RC-15 Laser Rifle does 3D6+6 MD per blast compared to the Coalition C-12 Heavy Assault Laser Rifle, which does 4D6 MD, and the Wilk’s 447 Laser Rifle, which does 3D6 MD. This means the RC-15 does the same maximum damage as the C-12, is capable of a higher average damage with a single shot, and is much more powerful than the 447. It also has the same payload as the other two (20 shots), and is much cheaper (14500 credits) However, at 9.5 kg the RC-15 is much heavier and has a far shorter range (305 to 610 m), making it much less viable as a weapon. An infantryman with this weapon cannot carry much additional gear, and will be vulnerable against opponents who can out-range them. As such, I would call this weapon quite balanced.

Byzantine_Basileus wrote:Localized is one thing, but the effectiveness of weapons and armor should still be limited by the overall tech level to keep things plausible within the rules of the universe.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Byzantine_Basileus wrote:Colombia – RC-15 Laser Rifle
The RC-15 Laser Rifle does 3D6+6 MD per blast compared to the Coalition C-12 Heavy Assault Laser Rifle, which does 4D6 MD, and the Wilk’s 447 Laser Rifle, which does 3D6 MD. This means the RC-15 does the same maximum damage as the C-12, is capable of a higher average damage with a single shot, and is much more powerful than the 447. It also has the same payload as the other two (20 shots), and is much cheaper (14500 credits) However, at 9.5 kg the RC-15 is much heavier and has a far shorter range (305 to 610 m), making it much less viable as a weapon. An infantryman with this weapon cannot carry much additional gear, and will be vulnerable against opponents who can out-range them. As such, I would call this weapon quite balanced.

The 4D6 Damage roll for the C-12 is a 5-shot burst. Confirmed by Kevin. Its single shot damage is 2D6MD.

Also, i factor range in the 'how powerful is this weapon' matrix..

Yeah, your RC-15 might do more damage, but if i kill you before you can even enter range to fire, its a moot point.

Both the C-12 and Wilks' weapons have a 2000ft range, which is the winner here for me. I agree that i dont find the RC-15 all that overpowered. In fact, i dont really find much of anything in SA that overpowered. Yeah, some of the weapons do absurd damage, but they all have pretty huge drawbacks to go with them.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Byzantine_Basileus wrote:Localized is one thing, but the effectiveness of weapons and armor should still be limited by the overall tech level to keep things plausible within the rules of the universe.

If you're expecting that kind of detail and continuity from Palladium, you're in for a seriously rude awakening.

SereneTsunami wrote:Isn't the "Power Creep" from the offending books more about the differences in vision of what Rifts Earth could/should be? Mr. Seimbeida and Mr. Carella clearly had different visions of what Rifts is.

Kevin saw the Earth as a wasteland with vagrant D-Bees, wandering boy-scouts and revived Pre-Rifts cultures, and until much later, that's about it. Mr. Carella saw a world invaded and inhabited by a wide and fantastic variety of cultures, tech levels, and races. Whole cities and races are dumped into South America some with great power. Kevin didn't do that, so it was all low power stuff from him.

It seems to me that literary vision and not numbers is responsible for the difference in power level. It also explains Kevin's repudiation of some of Mr. Carella's work.

SereneTsunami wrote:Isn't the "Power Creep" from the offending books more about the differences in vision of what Rifts Earth could/should be? Mr. Seimbeida and Mr. Carella clearly had different visions of what Rifts is.

Kevin saw the Earth as a wasteland with vagrant D-Bees, wandering boy-scouts and revived Pre-Rifts cultures, and until much later, that's about it. Mr. Carella saw a world invaded and inhabited by a wide and fantastic variety of cultures, tech levels, and races. Whole cities and races are dumped into South America some with great power. Kevin didn't do that, so it was all low power stuff from him.

It seems to me that literary vision and not numbers is responsible for the difference in power level. It also explains Kevin's repudiation of some of Mr. Carella's work.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

SereneTsunami wrote:Isn't the "Power Creep" from the offending books more about the differences in vision of what Rifts Earth could/should be? Mr. Seimbeida and Mr. Carella clearly had different visions of what Rifts is.

Kevin saw the Earth as a wasteland with vagrant D-Bees, wandering boy-scouts and revived Pre-Rifts cultures, and until much later, that's about it. Mr. Carella saw a world invaded and inhabited by a wide and fantastic variety of cultures, tech levels, and races. Whole cities and races are dumped into South America some with great power. Kevin didn't do that, so it was all low power stuff from him.

It seems to me that literary vision and not numbers is responsible for the difference in power level. It also explains Kevin's repudiation of some of Mr. Carella's work.

I have heard it before and it makes a lot of sense, but as a counterpoint, I point to Atlantis, which was definatly penned by Kevin himself, that had a whole *contiennt* with a dizzying variety of races involved, and a power level stated to be so great that it could singlehandedly conquer the rest of the planet any time it felt like and the only reason it didn't is because it was *Such* a huge power that other similar dizzying powers might interfear to stop it. And that was as old as WB 2.

dreicunan wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

SereneTsunami wrote:Isn't the "Power Creep" from the offending books more about the differences in vision of what Rifts Earth could/should be? Mr. Seimbeida and Mr. Carella clearly had different visions of what Rifts is.

Kevin saw the Earth as a wasteland with vagrant D-Bees, wandering boy-scouts and revived Pre-Rifts cultures, and until much later, that's about it. Mr. Carella saw a world invaded and inhabited by a wide and fantastic variety of cultures, tech levels, and races. Whole cities and races are dumped into South America some with great power. Kevin didn't do that, so it was all low power stuff from him.

It seems to me that literary vision and not numbers is responsible for the difference in power level. It also explains Kevin's repudiation of some of Mr. Carella's work.

I have heard it before and it makes a lot of sense, but as a counterpoint, I point to Atlantis, which was definatly penned by Kevin himself, that had a whole *contiennt* with a dizzying variety of races involved, and a power level stated to be so great that it could singlehandedly conquer the rest of the planet any time it felt like and the only reason it didn't is because it was *Such* a huge power that other similar dizzying powers might interfear to stop it. And that was as old as WB 2.

Exactly. I was about to make the same point. The vision difference explanation crumbles pretty hard in light of that.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

SereneTsunami wrote:Isn't the "Power Creep" from the offending books more about the differences in vision of what Rifts Earth could/should be? Mr. Seimbeida and Mr. Carella clearly had different visions of what Rifts is.

Kevin saw the Earth as a wasteland with vagrant D-Bees, wandering boy-scouts and revived Pre-Rifts cultures, and until much later, that's about it. Mr. Carella saw a world invaded and inhabited by a wide and fantastic variety of cultures, tech levels, and races. Whole cities and races are dumped into South America some with great power. Kevin didn't do that, so it was all low power stuff from him.

It seems to me that literary vision and not numbers is responsible for the difference in power level. It also explains Kevin's repudiation of some of Mr. Carella's work.

I have heard it before and it makes a lot of sense, but as a counterpoint, I point to Atlantis, which was definatly penned by Kevin himself, that had a whole *contiennt* with a dizzying variety of races involved, and a power level stated to be so great that it could singlehandedly conquer the rest of the planet any time it felt like and the only reason it didn't is because it was *Such* a huge power that other similar dizzying powers might interfear to stop it. And that was as old as WB 2.

dreicunan wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

SereneTsunami wrote:Isn't the "Power Creep" from the offending books more about the differences in vision of what Rifts Earth could/should be? Mr. Seimbeida and Mr. Carella clearly had different visions of what Rifts is.

Kevin saw the Earth as a wasteland with vagrant D-Bees, wandering boy-scouts and revived Pre-Rifts cultures, and until much later, that's about it. Mr. Carella saw a world invaded and inhabited by a wide and fantastic variety of cultures, tech levels, and races. Whole cities and races are dumped into South America some with great power. Kevin didn't do that, so it was all low power stuff from him.

It seems to me that literary vision and not numbers is responsible for the difference in power level. It also explains Kevin's repudiation of some of Mr. Carella's work.

I have heard it before and it makes a lot of sense, but as a counterpoint, I point to Atlantis, which was definatly penned by Kevin himself, that had a whole *contiennt* with a dizzying variety of races involved, and a power level stated to be so great that it could singlehandedly conquer the rest of the planet any time it felt like and the only reason it didn't is because it was *Such* a huge power that other similar dizzying powers might interfear to stop it. And that was as old as WB 2.

Exactly. I was about to make the same point. The vision difference explanation crumbles pretty hard in light of that.

SereneTsunami wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

SereneTsunami wrote:Isn't the "Power Creep" from the offending books more about the differences in vision of what Rifts Earth could/should be? Mr. Seimbeida and Mr. Carella clearly had different visions of what Rifts is.

Kevin saw the Earth as a wasteland with vagrant D-Bees, wandering boy-scouts and revived Pre-Rifts cultures, and until much later, that's about it. Mr. Carella saw a world invaded and inhabited by a wide and fantastic variety of cultures, tech levels, and races. Whole cities and races are dumped into South America some with great power. Kevin didn't do that, so it was all low power stuff from him.

It seems to me that literary vision and not numbers is responsible for the difference in power level. It also explains Kevin's repudiation of some of Mr. Carella's work.

I have heard it before and it makes a lot of sense, but as a counterpoint, I point to Atlantis, which was definatly penned by Kevin himself, that had a whole *contiennt* with a dizzying variety of races involved, and a power level stated to be so great that it could singlehandedly conquer the rest of the planet any time it felt like and the only reason it didn't is because it was *Such* a huge power that other similar dizzying powers might interfear to stop it. And that was as old as WB 2.

I would put Atlantis in the same category as the CS, ultra evil ultra powerful, foe to build a campaign around, but until Japan Kevin does not to the big transplants and "whole race enclaves". Carella's work is all about transplants, and entire races as a force. Even if we grant Kevin with Atlantis as you see it, it is only the exception that proves the rule. North America is still a much different style of world then South America.

Byzantine_Basileus wrote:

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Byzantine_Basileus wrote:Colombia – RC-15 Laser Rifle
The RC-15 Laser Rifle does 3D6+6 MD per blast compared to the Coalition C-12 Heavy Assault Laser Rifle, which does 4D6 MD, and the Wilk’s 447 Laser Rifle, which does 3D6 MD. This means the RC-15 does the same maximum damage as the C-12, is capable of a higher average damage with a single shot, and is much more powerful than the 447. It also has the same payload as the other two (20 shots), and is much cheaper (14500 credits) However, at 9.5 kg the RC-15 is much heavier and has a far shorter range (305 to 610 m), making it much less viable as a weapon. An infantryman with this weapon cannot carry much additional gear, and will be vulnerable against opponents who can out-range them. As such, I would call this weapon quite balanced.

The 4D6 Damage roll for the C-12 is a 5-shot burst. Confirmed by Kevin. Its single shot damage is 2D6MD.

Also, i factor range in the 'how powerful is this weapon' matrix..

Yeah, your RC-15 might do more damage, but if i kill you before you can even enter range to fire, its a moot point.

Both the C-12 and Wilks' weapons have a 2000ft range, which is the winner here for me. I agree that i dont find the RC-15 all that overpowered. In fact, i dont really find much of anything in SA that overpowered. Yeah, some of the weapons do absurd damage, but they all have pretty huge drawbacks to go with them.

I am aware of the blood that has been spilled over the discussion of how much damage the C-12 does, but until I actually see it written by KS either on the website or in one of the books, I am treating 4D6 as a single shot setting because of the "also able to shoot bursts" in the description setting.

SereneTsunami wrote:until Japan Kevin does not to the big transplants and "whole race enclaves".
Carella's work is all about transplants, and entire races as a force.
Even if we grant Kevin with Atlantis as you see it, it is only the exception that proves the rule.
North America is still a much different style of world then South America.

Axelmania wrote:

SereneTsunami wrote:until Japan Kevin does not to the big transplants and "whole race enclaves".
Carella's work is all about transplants, and entire races as a force.
Even if we grant Kevin with Atlantis as you see it, it is only the exception that proves the rule.
North America is still a much different style of world then South America.

Exceptions don't prove rules, in fact you assume a rule exists to label them an exception at all.

Wormwood has Demon Goblins as a race enclave, WB! had vamps, England had Fomorians, Africa had Tautons, WB5 had gargoyles, Mindwerks had Brodkil

Byzantine_Basileus wrote:Greetings All!

Byzantine_Basileus wrote:South America 1
Colombia – RC-10 Laser Pistol
I think reducing either the payload to 10 shots, or the range to 182 m, would make the RC-10 much more representative of the lower tech-level of Colombia.

Byzantine_Basileus wrote:Colombia – RC-15 Laser Rifle
As such, I would call this weapon quite balanced.

Byzantine_Basileus wrote:Colombia – RP-C20 Rocket Pistol
Rocket bullets represent a unique technology for Colombia, and so the statistics are going to be different to weapons in other nations. For this weapon in particular, I would say the damage, payload, and cost are all balanced, but the range needs to be shorter. It has the same range as the RR-C40 Rocket Rifle, even though the RR-C40 has a far longer barrel. I would reduce the range to 244 m.

Byzantine_Basileus wrote:Colombia – RR-C40 Rocket Rifle
Colombia – RAR-C15 Rocket Auto-Cannon Rifle.
Colombia – RA-C15 Rocket Auto-Cannon

torjones wrote:

Byzantine_Basileus wrote:Greetings All!

Salutations!
I am so disappointed that I only just now saw this thread, so to hopefully get it back on your original premise, I did something similar a few years back, except I went through every book, and collected the whole thing into a little spreadsheet to process the data. I didn't include direct clones, but if the stats were the same except for x, then it was included.
After all the comparisons, laser pistols with laser pistols, laser rifles with laser rifles, etc., you tend to see a few major trends, and while a lot of weapons stray outside the normal range, they only do so for one attribute and pay for it somewhere else. Long ago KS once said "Remember that Balance does not mean equal."

Byzantine_Basileus wrote:South America 1
Colombia – RC-10 Laser Pistol
I think reducing either the payload to 10 shots, or the range to 182 m, would make the RC-10 much more representative of the lower tech-level of Colombia.

I disagree, the RC-10 is either equal or inferior in nearly every category. Even in setting, it's nothing special, it's just ubiquitous. No changes need to be made here, not even if a whole bunch of them wound up in N.A. you wouldn't have to do anything with them. Some players will go for it, but I don't think most players would give up their wilks for it. That to me is the sign of something that needs to be nerfed, lots of players gravitating to the thing. Even in setting, I would go for the Inti-10 from SA2 for a laser pistol. The king of the Laser Pistol world though, remains to this day, the Wilks 237, though the NG-45LP is a serious contender due to greatly extended range while only losing 1d6 damage. Then again, these are pistols, and pistols aren't meant as long range weapons.

Byzantine_Basileus wrote:Colombia – RC-15 Laser Rifle
As such, I would call this weapon quite balanced.

I think you're making a mistake in how you're comparing weapons damage. It is more useful, IMO, to look at the min., max., and average damages, with average damage being most important over the long run. 4d6 and 3d6+6 do yield the same maximum damage, but very different minimum damages and average damages. Which would you rather have in combat, a weapon that did a minimum of 4 points of damage or one which dealt 9? In this case, 14 and 16.5 may not be that far apart, but still tells an important tale.
That aside, I agree that the weapon is comparable or inferior to most other weapons in setting and in N.A. While heavy, this often does not figure into combat. I don't see N.A. characters giving up their C-12's or C-14's for an RC-15 in spite of its higher damage. In setting, I still think I'd go for the Inti-20, swapping for a Tri-Beam rifle the first chance I got.

Byzantine_Basileus wrote:Colombia – RP-C20 Rocket Pistol
Rocket bullets represent a unique technology for Colombia, and so the statistics are going to be different to weapons in other nations. For this weapon in particular, I would say the damage, payload, and cost are all balanced, but the range needs to be shorter. It has the same range as the RR-C40 Rocket Rifle, even though the RR-C40 has a far longer barrel. I would reduce the range to 244 m.

First, I want to say that I never really considered the cartridge powered weapons in my initial analysis. In a world that has reactor powered energy weapons, bullets, even exploding bullets, don't really make much sense tactically or strategically. (either your weapon is directly powered from a reactor or you're recharging your e-clips from that reactor) Even explosives do not make much sense since the cost is so high, and the damage inflicted for that cost is so low, it just really doesn't make much sense for the majority of encounters. Tactically, it makes sense to keep one weapon on hand that will damage that rare creature that is immune to energy weapons, which this weapon would cover quite nicely, but that just makes it a niche weapon, just like RPGs and missiles.
It's a rocket, what does barrel length have to do with how far a rocket flies? Nothing. Reducing its range because it has a shorter barrel is mindboggeling. It could have no barrel or a meter long barrel and the rocket would still fly the same distance.
Fairly decent weapons for dealing with vampires, but that's about it. I've never seen a player character use one, but I'm sure it's happened. What that tells me though, is that it's very under powered for the setting. It would probably get more use in an anti-vampire game, but outside of that, it would need a big damage boost to overcome the advantages energy weapons have. Leave it alone since it's essentially irrelevant as a weapon outside of a few edge case applications.

Byzantine_Basileus wrote:Colombia – RR-C40 Rocket Rifle
Colombia – RAR-C15 Rocket Auto-Cannon Rifle.
Colombia – RA-C15 Rocket Auto-Cannon

Pretty much all my points for the pistol version still apply here to all three larger weapons, they are largely irrelevant as weapons outside of a few edge case applications.

I tried doing the same thing with RPA, but they are far too variable to apply the same kind of analysis to. However, if we stick to a Main Body MDC level comparison, most of the stuff from SA1 is equal or inferior to the stuff found in N.A. Heavy CS EBA is nearly equal to the SA1 entry level ground PA, and the robots are on roughly even footing, though, N.A. still has an edge in weapons and armor, it's not a huge one.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Hes comparing to the other books available at the time, not books that came years later, as a test of the “CJ started the power creep” thesis. All the weapons you brought up came WAY later.