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mental guard vs Saves.
Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:46 pm
by pblackcrow
Bit of a question.
Should someone who doesn't believe in either magic or psionics, never "seen" it before, (so they have never truly developed any type of "mental guard" against it) get a minus on saves until they see physically see and/or to their knowledge experience it and uh "See the light"? Basically, it's a question that keeps coming up in the game that I am in.
Re: mental guard vs Saves.
Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:25 pm
by ShadowHawk
On that same thought...And not to get off of your initial question, I think you will agree that the two questions run hand and hand. But is it possible to catch a normal somebody, who does have a clue and some idea off guard with spells and psionics?
Re: mental guard vs Saves.
Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:27 pm
by Shark_Force
how would knowing about it help? it isn't like you're actively planning out how to protect your mind from telepathy 24/7 just because you know it actually exists.
so i would say that generally speaking nobody should suffer a penalty due to lack of awareness (that doesn't mean they aren't more vulnerable in any way; someone who is aware that psionic mind control is a thing might react very differently to the realization that they can't explain why they would be thinking or feeling a certain way, which might lead to them suspecting that a known psychic is trying to control them or lead them to search for a previously unknown psychic, or might lead to them seeking out something that offers protection from mind control).
Re: mental guard vs Saves.
Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:17 pm
by ShadowHawk
Shark_Force wrote:how would knowing about it help? it isn't like you're actively planning out how to protect your mind from telepathy 24/7 just because you know it actually exists.
so i would say that generally speaking nobody should suffer a penalty due to lack of awareness (that doesn't mean they aren't more vulnerable in any way; someone who is aware that psionic mind control is a thing might react very differently to the realization that they can't explain why they would be thinking or feeling a certain way, which might lead to them suspecting that a known psychic is trying to control them or lead them to search for a previously unknown psychic, or might lead to them seeking out something that offers protection from mind control).
Right. So, the save reduction makes sense or not?
Re: mental guard vs Saves.
Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:46 pm
by Shark_Force
ShadowHawk wrote:Shark_Force wrote:how would knowing about it help? it isn't like you're actively planning out how to protect your mind from telepathy 24/7 just because you know it actually exists.
so i would say that generally speaking nobody should suffer a penalty due to lack of awareness (that doesn't mean they aren't more vulnerable in any way; someone who is aware that psionic mind control is a thing might react very differently to the realization that they can't explain why they would be thinking or feeling a certain way, which might lead to them suspecting that a known psychic is trying to control them or lead them to search for a previously unknown psychic, or might lead to them seeking out something that offers protection from mind control).
Right. So, the save reduction makes sense or not?
not.
it might help in other ways to be aware of the possibilities. but it isn't an important part of resisting the effect.
Re: mental guard vs Saves.
Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:52 am
by Prysus
pblackcrow wrote:Bit of a question.
Should someone who doesn't believe in either magic or psionics, never "seen" it before, (so they have never truly developed any type of "mental guard" against it) get a minus on saves until they see physically see and/or to their knowledge experience it and uh "See the light"? Basically, it's a question that keeps coming up in the game that I am in.
Greetings and Salutations. Game Masters may rule how they like and house rules can affect how other rules work, but just from the basic system ...
No penalties. Knowledge is not required. Reasons I say this ...
1: No such rule exists in settings such as BtS, where the setting is based around most people not believing.
2: Nega-Psychics (I think they're the ones) specifically resist by NOT believing (along with psychic powers, but the point is they don't believe or "see the light").
3: If knowledge is required, this has further ripples such as anyone not aware a spell (or psychic power) is cast receiving similar penalties (after all, they don't KNOW the spell is being cast to actively resist), and other oddities that could arise as a result.
Knowledge of spell casting isn't required to save. Belief is a requirement of the spellcaster, not the other way around. Knowledge does help though, and that's why magic classes tend too have better saves (bonuses). That's all for now. Farewell and safe journeys.
Re: mental guard vs Saves.
Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:19 am
by ShadowLogan
pblackcrow wrote:Bit of a question.
Should someone who doesn't believe in either magic or psionics, never "seen" it before, (so they have never truly developed any type of "mental guard" against it) get a minus on saves until they see physically see and/or to their knowledge experience it and uh "See the light"? Basically, it's a question that keeps coming up in the game that I am in.
By the RAW that would be a big fat No. Such a thing would be a house rule. Though by RAW it might also be situational on when you need to roll in some cases.
ShadowHawk wrote:On that same thought...And not to get off of your initial question, I think you will agree that the two questions run hand and hand. But is it possible to catch a normal somebody, who does have a clue and some idea off guard with spells and psionics?
Can you catch someone off guard with Spells and Psionics? Yes. For Saving Throw purposes? No.
Re: mental guard vs Saves.
Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:06 am
by Axelmania
Prysus wrote:No penalties. Knowledge is not required. Reasons I say this ...
1: No such rule exists in settings such as BtS, where the setting is based around most people not believing.
The closest I can see is on pg 74 for "Ordinary People", you got a +1 to save vs magic as children which you lost by the time you became a teenager/adult. On the plus side, you double your bonus vs possession and resist psychic stuff better (+2 means your 15 or higher is basically 13 or higher, nearly as good as a minor/major)
Also, like what you bring up with the nega-psychic, the OPs also automatically applied a -8% penalty (not sure if cumulative) within 10ft of clairvoyants (85-86) / mediums (87-88) / object readers (88-90)
Re: mental guard vs Saves.
Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:27 pm
by Nekira Sudacne
pblackcrow wrote:Bit of a question.
Should someone who doesn't believe in either magic or psionics, never "seen" it before, (so they have never truly developed any type of "mental guard" against it) get a minus on saves until they see physically see and/or to their knowledge experience it and uh "See the light"? Basically, it's a question that keeps coming up in the game that I am in.
No. They work based on the beleif of the caster, not the beleif of the target. There is no penalty for being faced with something new.