Grant Powers vs Negate Super Abilities

[Axelmania]

regarding Powers Unlimited 3 page 65 vs pg 283-284 of the main book HU2.

We know the main power GP itself is immune to NSA:

cannot be stolen, copied, mimicked or negated by another super being

But prior to that it also gives a bonus vs:

attacks that would take and borrow, negate or cancel out any of this character's super abilities

It's unclear to me when this bonus would actually come up. As far as I can see you don't actually get a savings throw against Negate Super Abilities, for example...

Is it basically only useful against (PU1p64) "Borrow Power" which does give a save?

I guess it's a pointless bonus if you already have (PU3p15) "Immune to (Some) Super Abilities" since that applies to anything where a save is allowed. That would be immunity to Borrow Power (so you can't ever borrow Immune to Super, though I guess someone with Grant Powers could gift it to others) but not to Negate Super Abilities since it doesn't involve a savings throw.

With "take and borrow" referring (presumably exclusively?) to Borrow Power, what exactly would "negate or cancel" refer to, if not Negate Super Abilities?

PU3p73 "Life Leech" on 74 mentions a "Steal the Super Ability of Another" and 73 allows a savings throw to avoid HP getting stolen. It seems like this should fall within the spirit of the bonus, but the difficulty in applying it here is the mechanics. HP is basically stolen "unspecified" so it could be spent on ANY of the abilities, so when you actually make the savings throw, you wouldn't know whether or not to apply the bonus, since you wouldn't know whether it's applying to a super ability or not.

I think maybe in the LL situation, unlike the others where you can track a "vague pool", perhaps someone wanting to "steal the super" should have to specify before the save is made they are trying to get those HP for that purpose, in which case the HP goes exclusively towards the 0/20 pool for that person's power if their save is failed, which is less likely for someone who has the bonus from Grant Power (and be an impossible pool to build in the case of Immune to Super: automatic failure: you deplete their HP but waste it, going nowhere!).

Another way to do it might be to roll and if they fail, then apply the +5. If it's a success: you fail as before and it becomes "incapable of stealing super" HP, if it's still a failure, it becomes "capable of stealing super" HP which you do need to track differently.

[eliakon]

You can't negate GP.
You can negate their OTHER powers... but they get a bonus vs that too.
Its not hard.

[green.nova343]

Well, as you pointed out, the Grant Powers description specifically states that the Grant Powers cannot be stolen, copied, mimicked, or negated "by another super being". I would say it's expressly saying that the major abilities Negate Super Abilities & Mimic (that's the "Negate" and "Mimick" part), nor will the "Steal the Super Ability of Another" from Life Leech in PU3 or Borrow Power from PU1 work (that's the "Stolen" part), & if using the Duplicate Selves powers I would guess that the duplicates lack Grant Powers themselves (that's the "copied"). If there are other powers out there with similar abilities, they'd fall under the same restrictions.

There is however, a key phrase there: by another super-being. It says nothing about your powers being stolen, negated, or copied/mimicked by a non-super-being...like, for example, some sort of supernatural monster (possibly demonic or even "angelic" in origin). Nor does it say anything about it being immune to manipulation by deities, Rifts Alien Intelligences, or other such powerful beings. And most importantly, it leaves Grant Powers open to negation by "conventional" means...such as the Power Dampeners from Gramercy Island, or the ABE (Aberrant Biological Energy) Dampeners in Aliens Unlimited. The former don't have a saving throw; they just require all 5 to be fitted & activated for the powers to be negated, & destroying each one gives a 20% cumulative chance of restoring powers. The latter are functionally identical to the Negate Super-Abilities power (as well as interfering with bionics, psionics & magic).

There are also a couple of instances where magic has the potential to negate superpowers. First off, a Mystically Bestowed character can lose their powers temporarily if someone casts Negate Magicl or Anti-Magic Cloud spell, causing them to revert to their normal unpowered self. Theoretically, then, a Mystically Bestowed character with Grant Powers could have the chance to (however temporary) lose their powers if they fail their save vs. magic; in this case, I would consider that to be an "attack that would negate" their super abilities, so they'd get the +5 bonus on the save (in addition to the +4 if saving against Negate Magic; since that spell would only turn them back for maybe 1D6 rounds, though, & Anti-Magic Cloud both seems more powerful -- being referred to as a "spell of legend" -- & having a longer duration -- the implication being that while the cloud is there only the caster's magic is supposed to work -- they'll be glad of that +5 bonus on the save).

Another option was technically omitted from HU2, but was found in HU Revised (as well as PFRPG & in Rifts CB1/Dark Conversions): Circle Magic. The Power Leech Circle cuts magic spell effects in half (including treating the caster as half their normal level), as well as affecting "non-physical super abilities" (HU Revised, p. 105). Again, if you have Grant Powers because you're a Mystically Bestowed hero, that's going to affect you...& even if you're not Mystically Bestowed, it would be up to the GM to decide if Grant Powers is a "physical" or "non-physical" super power. But at least your +5 bonus helps offset the -2 penalty for saving vs. circle magic.

By the same token, I would also treat the Mystic Drain ward used by the PFRPG Diabolist as the equivalent of the Negate Magic spell, but only the Grant Power's +5 bonus (plus any PE bonuses) will apply...but only Mystically Bestowed abilities would be affected.

That covers the RAW & near-RAW examples. Theoretically, however, you could have a home-rule psionic power or additional spell that could duplicate or approximate how the Power Dampeners work (i.e. negating super-abilities in non-magic-based heroes). That's particularly important, since Grant Powers allows you to grant your other abilities not only to "normal" humans but also to Psionics & Mystic Study heroes (albeit at half normal duration, just as with Mutant Animals & "mortal" aliens); since you can't grant powers to heroes with existing super abilities, the corollary is that psychics & mages are not considered super beings, so psychic & magic-based abilities would have the possibility of "stealing, copying, mimicking, or negating" Grant Powers.

[Axelmania]

You can't negate GP.
You can negate their OTHER powers... but they get a bonus vs that too.
Its not hard.

The hardness is that there is no savings throw against Negate Super Abilities.

A bonus is only useful if there's a resistance roll with a target number to apply it to.

So I'm asking, aside from Borrow Power and Life Leech, what other things would involve a savings throw for this bonus to be used against.

Well, as you pointed out, the Grant Powers description specifically states that the Grant Powers cannot be stolen, copied, mimicked, or negated "by another super being".

I would say it's expressly saying that the major abilities Negate Super Abilities & Mimic (that's the "Negate" and "Mimick" part), nor will the "Steal the Super Ability of Another" from Life Leech in PU3 or Borrow Power from PU1 work (that's the "Stolen" part), & if using the Duplicate Selves powers I would guess that the duplicates lack Grant Powers themselves (that's the "copied"). If there are other powers out there with similar abilities, they'd fall under the same restrictions.

There is however, a key phrase there: by another super-being. It says nothing about your powers being stolen, negated, or copied/mimicked by a non-super-being...

I am at fault for an incomplete quote here: it is actually:

another super being, magic or device.

Nor does it say anything about it being immune to manipulation by deities, Rifts Alien Intelligences, or other such powerful beings.

Do we have examples of them doing it using something other than magic?

And most importantly, it leaves Grant Powers open to negation by "conventional" means...such as the Power Dampeners from Gramercy Island, or the ABE (Aberrant Biological Energy) Dampeners in Aliens Unlimited. The former don't have a saving throw; they just require all 5 to be fitted & activated for the powers to be negated, & destroying each one gives a 20% cumulative chance of restoring powers. The latter are functionally identical to the Negate Super-Abilities power (as well as interfering with bionics, psionics & magic).

Since these are "devices" they couldn't stop/take Grant Powers but these are interesting considerations for other abilities.

Since there's no savings throw it sounds like a +5 wouldn't be helpful, much like NSA.

There are also a couple of instances where magic has the potential to negate superpowers. First off, a Mystically Bestowed character can lose their powers temporarily if someone casts Negate Magicl or Anti-Magic Cloud spell, causing them to revert to their normal unpowered self. Theoretically, then, a Mystically Bestowed character with Grant Powers could have the chance to (however temporary) lose their powers if they fail their save vs. magic; in this case, I would consider that to be an "attack that would negate" their super abilities, so they'd get the +5 bonus on the save (in addition to the +4 if saving against Negate Magic; since that spell would only turn them back for maybe 1D6 rounds, though, & Anti-Magic Cloud both seems more powerful -- being referred to as a "spell of legend" -- & having a longer duration -- the implication being that while the cloud is there only the caster's magic is supposed to work -- they'll be glad of that +5 bonus on the save).

Another option was technically omitted from HU2, but was found in HU Revised (as well as PFRPG & in Rifts CB1/Dark Conversions): Circle Magic. The Power Leech Circle cuts magic spell effects in half (including treating the caster as half their normal level), as well as affecting "non-physical super abilities" (HU Revised, p. 105). Again, if you have Grant Powers because you're a Mystically Bestowed hero, that's going to affect you...& even if you're not Mystically Bestowed, it would be up to the GM to decide if Grant Powers is a "physical" or "non-physical" super power. But at least your +5 bonus helps offset the -2 penalty for saving vs. circle magic.

Good point about the magic, especially with Power Leech. That's one downside I guess about losing the Circle Master from HU is there isn't really anywhere to keep errata about how it would affect super abilities.

Might've been useful in the Conversion Book since it introduced circles/supers simultaneously.

By the same token, I would also treat the Mystic Drain ward used by the PFRPG Diabolist as the equivalent of the Negate Magic spell, but only the Grant Power's +5 bonus (plus any PE bonuses) will apply...but only Mystically Bestowed abilities would be affected.

Whereas the circles would affect any power, magic-fueled or not?

That covers the RAW & near-RAW examples. Theoretically, however, you could have a home-rule psionic power or additional spell that could duplicate or approximate how the Power Dampeners work (i.e. negating super-abilities in non-magic-based heroes).

Since you mentioned psi, if it was at all possible to Mind Wipe the memory of how to use a particular power, perhaps the immunity / +5 could apply there?

[green.nova343]

Argh, & know I feel stupid for not double-checking that quote.

Although being immune to negation/copying/theft/mimicry from super-beings (apparently both super-abilities & psionics), magic and devices makes that awfully powerful. And it doesn't make a lot of sense to both give the bonus against it & say it's immune in the very next sentence. However...now that I think about it, if your other abilities are negated/borrowed/cancelled, then this power only allows you to grant the "random Minor Super Ability at 1st level strength", no matter what your own powers & level were (i.e. if you had Energy Expulsion at 10th level, normally you could gift it at 5th level, but if that's negated you're depending on a random roll to gift it at 1st level only).

I do like your suggestion of the +5 being useful against Mind Wipe, though.

[eliakon]

Argh, & know I feel stupid for not double-checking that quote.

Although being immune to negation/copying/theft/mimicry from super-beings (apparently both super-abilities & psionics), magic and devices makes that awfully powerful. And it doesn't make a lot of sense to both give the bonus against it & say it's immune in the very next sentence. However...now that I think about it, if your other abilities are negated/borrowed/cancelled, then this power only allows you to grant the "random Minor Super Ability at 1st level strength", no matter what your own powers & level were (i.e. if you had Energy Expulsion at 10th level, normally you could gift it at 5th level, but if that's negated you're depending on a random roll to gift it at 1st level only).

I do like your suggestion of the +5 being useful against Mind Wipe, though.

Basically you will always have GP. la la la
What else you have? That is up in the air. So you might not have your luck, or invulnerability, or mind control powers, or anything else. And on its own GP isn't terribly useful.
As for granting them... you can grant them even if they are negated. They still exist and you don't lose them while granting them. So your empowered person could use them, just you can't. The only way you couldn't grant them is if the powers were stolen/borrowed because in that case they are gone and you can't dupe gone.

It still isn't all that powerful really. I mean it means that, at best, someone will always be able to burn of some of their life force to grant super powers to someone else? That's not a world breaking power by itself. And the argument that there are combinations of powers that can be granted that are has no weight with me. That's what a GM exists for... to weed out game breaking builds before the game starts.

[Axelmania]

As for granting them... you can grant them even if they are negated.
They still exist and you don't lose them while granting them.
So your empowered person could use them, just you can't.

This seems like a pretty fuzzy area to me. I could see that if someone had done "Borrow Power" on your "APS Metal" or whatever, that it might also prevent you turning other people into Metal until you got that back.