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Something like the temporal spell "attune object to owner" being used on their largest cruisers (making them unusable until the spell is negated) could be pretty crippling, would you figure they trade for talismans-of-negate-magic with the UWW?

This spell requires the presence of the object, owner, and spell caster

It's impossible to cast Attune Object to Owner unless the Owner of the Starship is present. I don't think the Commander In Cheif of the CCW Navy is likely to be present on board, or prehaps it would only be castable if the entire CCW Parliment is present as the collective embodyment of the ownership of the state?

Either way, it's impossible to use it to stop the CCW from using their ships because it's impossible to cast Attune Object to Owner without the Owner being physically present. it does not allow you to claim ownership of something that belongs to someone else.

Is "owner" actually a metaphysical inherent concept though, or does the spell itself effectively create the status of ownership?

If you steal something for example, at what point would you become its owner? How does the universe acknowledge this?

Axelmania wrote:Is "owner" actually a metaphysical inherent concept though, or does the spell itself effectively create the status of ownership?

If you steal something for example, at what point would you become its owner? How does the universe acknowledge this?

It says the owner has to be present as a specific requirement of the spell and not an effect of the spell. So the Spell has no power to create the status of ownership, it only attunes an existing owner mystically.

I think the Rune Weapon's requirements establish a precident that might answer to the latter question. it takes some months of continous possession for ownership to transfer.

In reply to the question in the subject line: Lots. They are an interstellar polity with a well functioning economy in a universe where magic exists and is known...at that point, they have whatever magical defenses the GM thinks is appropriate. (In other words, whatever the GM needs to keep players like you from cheesing them.)

pad300 wrote:In reply to the question in the subject line: Lots. They are an interstellar polity with a well functioning economy in a universe where magic exists and is known...at that point, they have whatever magical defenses the GM thinks is appropriate. (In other words, whatever the GM needs to keep players like you from cheesing them.)

We don't have any information on this for the CCW but we have plenty from Rifts proper to port over. You can assume that some magic OCCs would be part of the CAF as specialists and they might even have some UWW assets on loan. I always figured that most of the CAFs magic defense would be tech, devices that allow them to detect magic in use. I used the SNARLs scope in Japan as a base line and a few other devices as well.

I also figure that the CAF has to be one of the largest, if not the outright largest, purchaser of UWW techno-wizardry devices. Humans, Wulfen, Seljuk they all have about 20% to 25% psionics while races like the Oni have higher and the Noro, the second largest race, is 100%. With numbers like this they have lots of personnel that can use TW so I have always assumed that was there primary defense.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I think the Rune Weapon's requirements establish a precident that might answer to the latter question. it takes some months of continous possession for ownership to transfer.

I like this idea of a guideline, though it still does bring up questions about how to define what possession is.

For example, with a rune staff, what if 2 brothers walk around for months both clutching opposite ends of the staff? Are they both in possession of it?

In the case of a vehicle, multiple people can be riding around in it. So is only the person in the driver's seat in possession of it?

What about cases where in a massive spaceship you have the pilot and the captain as separate roles? Or if nobody in the ship itself actually owns the ship and it's actually owned by a corporation who has hired you to operate it?

Axelmania wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I think the Rune Weapon's requirements establish a precident that might answer to the latter question. it takes some months of continous possession for ownership to transfer.

I like this idea of a guideline, though it still does bring up questions about how to define what possession is.

For example, with a rune staff, what if 2 brothers walk around for months both clutching opposite ends of the staff? Are they both in possession of it?

Simply storing something doesn't transfer ownership, so I think proximity is less important than intention.

If both brothers are fighting over it, I think it would not be considered in either of their possession until one of them gave up and stopped trying to get it, or died. Unlocking it's power means uncontested possession. if it's constantly being contested, then it's not going to bond with either until they settle it. This rule would encourage some brotherly backstabbing, so I like it as it fits with epic legends of jealousy over such items.

In the case of a vehicle, multiple people can be riding around in it. So is only the person in the driver's seat in possession of it?

I think the same logic applies, that ownership is not simple physical proximity. So long as none of the others in the vehicle are trying to assert ownership, then it doesn't matter.

What about cases where in a massive spaceship you have the pilot and the captain as separate roles? Or if nobody in the ship itself actually owns the ship and it's actually owned by a corporation who has hired you to operate it?

Corporations have owners in the form of their Shareholders, though. I think you'd need a shareholder meeting with a quorum to use it. No one in the ship would have ownership therefore, not even the captian. Unless the ship had the shareholder meeting held on board I suppose.

Same applies for military vehicles owned by democratic or republican instiutions. For a ship owned by a Monarchy or Tyrant where the military equipment is the King or Emporer's personal property in legal theory, then the King would be the owner of all of them directly and would have to be present for any transfer of ownership to occur. Or prehaps it would suffice for a formal Decree transfering ownership to be delivered first.

pad300 wrote:In reply to the question in the subject line: Lots. They are an interstellar polity with a well functioning economy in a universe where magic exists and is known...at that point, they have whatever magical defenses the GM thinks is appropriate. (In other words, whatever the GM needs to keep players like you from cheesing them.)

Yeah this is the safe bet. The CCW haven't exactly gone all-in on developing their magical potential, but they exist in a universe where magic is a known quantity and where several other civilisations have gone all-in. So while they might not have much in the way of magical defenses on some random frigate doing routine patrols in the middle of nowhere, they're almost definitely gonna have some kind of magical response going on at the fleet and planetary defense level. And they've probably got fairly comprehensive intelligence and countermeasures figured out for the more common kinds of magic out there, as well as for some of the more exotic stuff used by factions like the Splugorth or the United Worlds of Warlock.

Plus on top of that there's a bunch of CCW client races with psychic or supernatural abilities, and they'll do in a pinch for covering at least some of the Coalition's vulnerabilities against magic-using opponents.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Simply storing something doesn't transfer ownership, so I think proximity is less important than intention.

If both brothers are fighting over it, I think it would not be considered in either of their possession until one of them gave up and stopped trying to get it, or died. Unlocking it's power means uncontested possession. if it's constantly being contested, then it's not going to bond with either until they settle it. This rule would encourage some brotherly backstabbing, so I like it as it fits with epic legends of jealousy over such items.

Okay, but what exactly is required when in proximity to "contest" ownership?

Like for example if I'm some superhero with Shrinking in HU2 (ala Ant-Man or The Atom) and speck-sized I am lurking 24/7 camped out on your Rune Weapon and you don't even notice me there, staking a claim of my own, am I contesting the ownership?

When it comes to rune weapons, perhaps that might be resolved somehow through roleplay (the weapon chooses?) but when it comes to non-sentient weapons there's no clear means of resolving it.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I think the same logic applies, that ownership is not simple physical proximity. So long as none of the others in the vehicle are trying to assert ownership, then it doesn't matter.

So if I'm say, Splynncryth, I can't own my Dragon Dreadnought if a single bitter Kittani engineer thinks he is the owner? I need to mind-control/wipe the entire operating staff of the vehicle so they support me?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Corporations have owners in the form of their Shareholders, though. I think you'd need a shareholder meeting with a quorum to use it. No one in the ship would have ownership therefore, not even the captian. Unless the ship had the shareholder meeting held on board I suppose.

That's ownership according to a certain group's standards of who is owed what, which might not conform to other groups' sense of who should own what.

Land/property rights and so forth.

For example: the TGE probably thinks it is the rightful owner of the stolen Kreeghor Dreadnought that the Free World Council has taken over... and the FWC probably considers themselves the rightful owners because these ships are built by slave labor so the Kreeghor owe back wages and the Dreadnought is being claimed as those wages.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Same applies for military vehicles owned by democratic or republican instiutions. For a ship owned by a Monarchy or Tyrant where the military equipment is the King or Emporer's personal property in legal theory, then the King would be the owner of all of them directly and would have to be present for any transfer of ownership to occur. Or prehaps it would suffice for a formal Decree transfering ownership to be delivered first.

What about right of conquest? If people view the king to have stolen his wealth through unfair taxes?

Axelmania wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Simply storing something doesn't transfer ownership, so I think proximity is less important than intention.

If both brothers are fighting over it, I think it would not be considered in either of their possession until one of them gave up and stopped trying to get it, or died. Unlocking it's power means uncontested possession. if it's constantly being contested, then it's not going to bond with either until they settle it. This rule would encourage some brotherly backstabbing, so I like it as it fits with epic legends of jealousy over such items.

Okay, but what exactly is required when in proximity to "contest" ownership?

Like for example if I'm some superhero with Shrinking in HU2 (ala Ant-Man or The Atom) and speck-sized I am lurking 24/7 camped out on your Rune Weapon and you don't even notice me there, staking a claim of my own, am I contesting the ownership?

I don't think 24/7 Physical contact is required. just being generally present and both arguing over ownership would suffice. See the two brothers in a camp scenario. Neither of them have to be holding it to contest ownership, but they do need contact to establish it. There likely isn't an exact limit other than "Generally nearby during the entire duration of contesting ownership"

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I think the same logic applies, that ownership is not simple physical proximity. So long as none of the others in the vehicle are trying to assert ownership, then it doesn't matter.

So if I'm say, Splynncryth, I can't own my Dragon Dreadnought if a single bitter Kittani engineer thinks he is the owner? I need to mind-control/wipe the entire operating staff of the vehicle so they support me?

No? I'm not sure what your asking here. If your the owner, your the owner. if a Kittanni on board thinks he owns it, then that doesn't mean anything unless he does something to make the claim real. AKA, he has to actually contest it, not just think about contesting it.

I think this goes back. You can't *secretly* steal ownership. if Splyncryth publically owns a ship, and you want to steal the ship, then you have to not simply say you own it, but actually deny Splyncryth the use for the entire 3+ month long process.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Corporations have owners in the form of their Shareholders, though. I think you'd need a shareholder meeting with a quorum to use it. No one in the ship would have ownership therefore, not even the captian. Unless the ship had the shareholder meeting held on board I suppose.

That's ownership according to a certain group's standards of who is owed what, which might not conform to other groups' sense of who should own what.

Land/property rights and so forth.

For example: the TGE probably thinks it is the rightful owner of the stolen Kreeghor Dreadnought that the Free World Council has taken over... and the FWC probably considers themselves the rightful owners because these ships are built by slave labor so the Kreeghor owe back wages and the Dreadnought is being claimed as those wages.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Same applies for military vehicles owned by democratic or republican instiutions. For a ship owned by a Monarchy or Tyrant where the military equipment is the King or Emporer's personal property in legal theory, then the King would be the owner of all of them directly and would have to be present for any transfer of ownership to occur. Or prehaps it would suffice for a formal Decree transfering ownership to be delivered first.

What about right of conquest? If people view the king to have stolen his wealth through unfair taxes?

Again, all of these are answered by the above. I think, to put it in a slightly more ready checklist.

To attain contested ownership, you must:

1: Have physical access to the Object. this does not have to include physical contact, but must be ready, unfettered access.
2: must deny the previous owner any and all access and enjoyment for a period of several months

This second one is the real requirement. you can't just put a hand on it, you have to somehow take it AWAY from them, deny them any form of access or control of it, for sevreal continous months, for your ownership claim to override the other.

So long as both have ready access or enjoyment, the claim can remain disputed indefinately. one must either completely destroy/kill the other party/organization, or else simply remove access.

This makes it easy to answer your earlier ones

Kittanni Engineer on the ship -- It doesn't matter what he thinks. Splyncryth is still in command of it, the crew still does what he tells them to with it. He's not actually denying Splynncryth access to, or enjoyment of, the ship, so it's still Splyncryths. Ownership is not contested.

That's ownership according to a certain group's standards of who is owed what, which might not conform to other groups' sense of who should own what.

Sure. and if one managers to actually take sole poession of the ship, and deny the other any access to it, for several months, then they get it. Possession is 9/10ths of mystic law. Duration of possession is the other 10%

Right of Conquest: Well, if you dethrone the king, then you can take over. same with others. If the King/government formally surrenders, all ownership claims immediately transfer. if you kill the king/annilate the parliment/board of directors by killing all of them, then ALL ownership claims are voided and things belong to the first person who grabs them. This is probablly why there is such a scramble whenever a Splurgorth dies-- every single rune item and other magic object he owns is claimed by littearlly the first person who picks it up and says it's theirs. (and meets any other requirements)

For pretty much the rest of your questions, the answer to who owns it is "Whoever both has access to and can deny all access from all competing ownership claims for 2-6 months. Ownership, mystically speaking, can in fact be contested indefinately, though as one only has to use it openly yourself while denying the other side the ability to use it, mystic ownership can usually resolve eventually even if legally both continue to argue.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I don't think 24/7 Physical contact is required. just being generally present and both arguing over ownership would suffice. See the two brothers in a camp scenario. Neither of them have to be holding it to contest ownership, but they do need contact to establish it. There likely isn't an exact limit other than "Generally nearby during the entire duration of contesting ownership"

I'm just thinking of what would stop a fairy from camping out somewhere in your storage bin and claiming he owns your UAR-1 Enforcer and this somehow messing with whatever metaphysical existence ownership is for magical purposes.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:if a Kittanni on board thinks he owns it, then that doesn't mean anything unless he does something to make the claim real. AKA, he has to actually contest it, not just think about contesting it.

I think there are 2 progressive accomplishments here
1) deny someone else ownership status
2) affirm ownership status for self

There might be something one could do to interfere with (1) even if a situation isn't enough to warrant (2).

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I think this goes back. You can't *secretly* steal ownership. if Splyncryth publically owns a ship, and you want to steal the ship, then you have to not simply say you own it, but actually deny Splyncryth the use for the entire 3+ month long process.

If you need to keep Splynncryth away from your ship for 3 months to make it impossible for him to be treated as owner, then wouldn't Splynncryth need to keep you away from your ship for 3 months to make impossible for you to be ALSO treated as owner?

Perhaps he could rotate Kittani engineers every 2 months to avoid this problem?

We can't assume a "previous owner" necessarily exists at all. For it to be Splynncryth, he must do something initially to create that condition for himself.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:This second one is the real requirement. you can't just put a hand on it, you have to somehow take it AWAY from them, deny them any form of access or control of it, for sevreal continous months, for your ownership claim to override the other.

How often do we really think Splynncryth actually would personally access vehicles in his fleet? I think a lot of that is probably deferred.

The ones who build this stuff in the first place are the Kittani, so it seems like they would be the de-facto / automatic owners.

Unless maybe there is some kind of ritual of worship you can do which transfers mystical ownership of your possessions to some other entity?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Kittanni Engineer on the ship -- It doesn't matter what he thinks. Splyncryth is still in command of it, the crew still does what he tells them to with it. He's not actually denying Splynncryth access to, or enjoyment of, the ship, so it's still Splyncryths. Ownership is not contested.

He's personally contesting it, even though the rest of the crew isn't... but what if he gradually gains support from more and more of the crew to consider Splynncryth not the rightful owner? Where's the tipping point?

I'm wondering if mystically this could somehow be related to people unconsciously depositing micro-amounts of PPE into stuff they build, and this somehow attuning it to them.

If a crew of hundreds built a starship, it would be mix of all of them, and I guess be de-facto theirs collectively...

But if this crew happened to all swear fealty in a ritual manner to say, an alien intelligence, or even just a military ranking system, then maybe the PPE-bits would defer to those ritualistic alignments?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Sure. and if one managers to actually take sole poession of the ship, and deny the other any access to it, for several months, then they get it. Possession is 9/10ths of mystic law. Duration of possession is the other 10%

Sole possession is pretty hard on big ships with potential stowaways. Or even small vehicles since there could be invisible 6-inch stowaways.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:if you kill the king/annilate the parliment/board of directors by killing all of them, then ALL ownership claims are voided and things belong to the first person who grabs them.

1) what about inheritance (king>prince) ?
2) what about resurrection?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:For pretty much the rest of your questions, the answer to who owns it is "Whoever both has access to and can deny all access from all competing ownership claims for 2-6 months.

The problem is how to define "access" so we have a clear idea of just how hard it is to create that situation.

Like for example, people can clearly somehow own a boat, even if they are always ferrying passengers on that boat. The passengers do have access...

But in a way, I guess if you willingly become a passenger, there may be some subtle ritual of deferring your PPE to the PPE of the captain?

I would consider the CCW having small teams in the Army and in the Fleet/Marines who are tailored to countering magic. Heavy on psychics and psionic equipment, a tw gadget here and there, and some tech solutions.A Noro Psi Nullifier or Nega Psychic would not make a bad starting point to a counter magic team.