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Posted: **Sun May 24, 2020 12:33 pm**

The Following is a WHAT-IF Scenario and is not about the canon configuration of the New Generation Alpha or Beta, but rather an alternate version that could be plugged in a few different ways should the GM want to (IMU, AU-version, alternate engine configuration from the Genia-era carried forward or Shadow alternative, dual PC/Fusion setup seen elsewhere, etc).

What if the Alpha and Beta where equipped with a VF-1-type fusion engine/propulsion system (OSM Block5 engines) in place of the Protoculture-based system the Alpha and Beta use? This requires answering the following 3 questions:
-Can Fusion Engines be made to fit?
-How much SLMH fuel can each carry?
-What is the impact on performance?

Can Fusion Engines be made to fit?
Really the RPG allows these mecha to have backup fusion engines, so the answer is obviously yes given they can squeeze in a backup system to take over for the Protoculture system at reduced capacity. It can be shown that the known full-size engines from the VF-1/8/10 can be made to fit the Beta and 2/3 of them can fit the Alpha based on what we know of both units. Basically the answer is YES you can make full powered fusion engines that can fit either mecha.

So I will be considering these fusion engines in the following configurations for both mecha with their OSM thrust value augmented by overboost capability (so thrust will be double) and consume fuel at the same rate as the 2E RPG (which works out to 3.47x10^-3 kg/sec per ENGINE based on the density of SLMH and the OSM fuel capacity of the VF-1 of 1410L). That fuel consumption rate will be the average since both mecha have differing engines thrust values. This also assumes the RPG operating time is for ATMOSPHERIC use and not in space.

Operating in Space there are three possibilities (well more actually, but lets keep this simple): 1. OSM fuel consumption rate ratios between atmospheric and space remain the same, 2. adjust the specific impulse to arrive at the same Delta-V as the OSM, 3. adjust the space fuel rate to halve the specific impulse of the OSM’s VF-1 fusion engines (this factors in the SLMH’s greater fuel density IMHO while remaining “conventional”). Option 1 flat out result in an unworkable vehicle (from a variety of perspectives) and will be ignored. Option 2 and Option 3 will both be looked at and presented, allowing GM’s to decide on their own which works best for them. This means the Alpha and Beta’s engines will be assumed to have an average Specific Impulse of Option 2 and Option 3.

How much SLMH fuel can each carry?
Based on measurements of Cyclone Lineart profile views, one can estimate the size of the cylindrical Protoculture Canister to be 4-Liters (approximate, I rounded down). And simply replace their contents from PC to SLMH which would give us 64-Liters for the Alpha, and 128-Liters for the Beta (it should be noted officially 32 cells from the RPG is an RPG-ism). Which is a far cry from the 1410-Liter capacity of the VF-1 (assuming HG intends for a volume transfer of SLMH from Slush-H2 in the OSM). However I think we can improve this by replacing the cylindrical container with a rectangular cube, which would increase the individual cell capacity by 27% (or an extra 1-Liter per canister) without to much of stretch. This raises the Alpha to 81.95-L and the Beta to 163.89-L (if spacing between and within each 4-pack bank of canisters can be consolidated to a single tank the values will go up).

With the Alpha we can potentially do better than 81.95L, but this requires more of a stretch in terms of what they can/would change from the Protoculture baseline version in order to free up space to hold fusion fuel. Potential locations I’ve estimated (based on measurements from AotS pg78) to have:
-Each Wing can potentially hold around 184.89L (treating it as a basic triangle, which it is not), however practically speaking some of this volume will not be available due to transformation mechanisms, structural support, control surface mechanisms, etc.
-Forward VTOL thruster in the chest, can potentially offer 94.81L. This means sacrificing fighter mode S/VTOL (Shadow Fighter shows the UEEF is willing to give-up the capability)
-Rear VTOL thruster in groin, can potentially offer 28.44L This means sacrificing fighter mode’s S/VTOL (this is also external feature given the Shadow version, the interior aspect would increase this).
-Shoulder Sensor Pod that is concealed w/n the body in Fighter mode can offer up 599.83L (this one is actually based on the MPC Alpha not AotSC). This means a change to the Alpha’s avionics (which we know is possible given the Shadow Fighter dropped the pod). This might not even possible (F/G limited yes, B mode the cockpit folds back to where the unit appears to be stored, but we could change the shape of the pod and its contents for fuel and allow it to visually be similar to the H/I/Z instead of the S model)
-Cyclone storage bay can offer 809.08L, no real precedent for replacement unlike the thrusters and sensor pod
-Each 190mm Missile can offer up 8.62L (or ~10.97L as rectangular cube), and the first 8 might be free and not cost any capacity (the out lower leg is 2 banks, but the inner is 1 even though it looks like 2 banks are present, so 8 “free” missiles to exchange)
-Each Intake area from Shadow Drone Popup launchers (149L each based on SRM volume assuming they have the same length as the ones on the MM-60) or area from piloted types which would include the PC canisters (82.18L) and go no deeper than the canisters (the Drone appears to have a restricted intake area compared to manned models which might explain the difference). It should be noted the Piloted version of the intakes might also work as conformal tanks on the underside of the intake (they don’t have the same height as the OSM model kit missiles, which in theory gives them a bit more clearance for transformation, obviously this use precludes the use as a missile station if one uses it).
-Replace the nose cone and radar concealed within offers up 155.14L (this does not mean giving up radar capability, but it does mean the Alpha has to move the radar and possibly use conformal antenna).
-Use the OSM’s LOX tank for the Fuel Cell System would offer 263L in total, possibly more if the OSM stored the oxygen in less dense gas form (the O2 for the OSM’s fuel cell system is unlikely to be in the HBT canister IMHO, this also assumes 2.35kg of H2 per canister in the OSM based on the VR-052 if the canister holds more H2 the size will need to increase, then again it could decrease if the space endurance time is supposed to be less for the Legoiss Fuel Cell)

The Beta can do better than 32 canisters. Because there are no (useful) cutaways for the Beta (AFAIK), there is a big fat blank in terms of what can and can not work, so the following list should be taken with some skepticism in terms of accuracy and is based on the profile views in AotSC pg80:
-Each Wing can hold potentially 2,884.47L, in actual practice the amount is probably less due to internal frame work. It probably is not ideal either form a plumbing perspective, but it is an option.
-Chest Flip Down Missile Lid (MM20) can each potentially hold 1,725.75L, more actually because I ignored the “endcaps” on the side of the lid. Potential plumbing issues likely exist just like the wing. The cap does appear to be “hollow” when we see it open, all this would do is “fill it in”. To ease plumbing issue I would recommend converting the dual MM16/MM20 setup to a pure MM16 with reloads (2 or 3 sets) and not having them with the “flip down” feature
-Cyclone storage bay can offer 809.08L, this assumes the Beta has such a feature (the 2E RPG doesn’t give it one)
-Bomb Bay offers “seating” for 6 (per 2E RPG), assuming Ariel/Marlene’s dimensions in TSC (pg53) and as a simple rectangular cube to allow the tank to use open space Ariel wasn’t using but still there, each person could offer up 178.06L. This would have to be an optional feature though. Given females are shorter than males (on average), this results in a bit of low balling the volume if we assume the 6 person capacity is for 6 average males (~180cm vs Ariel’s 161cm height). It also assumes standing volume, sitting could allow more open space to be claimed per person.
-Lower Legs are assumed to have tanks in the legs, molded to the outer side one could potentially get 2,157.19L in each leg (and I went with a pretty shallow tank depth and a simplified shape and ignored the beveled area). This assumes only one side has a tank, though both might, and it ignores the possibility of other sides in the lower leg that might also be used.
-Use the OSM’s LOX tank for the Fuel Cell system (as Alpha per 16 canister increments)

For simplicity when assessing the impact on performance later I will be treating the mecha in the following configuration:
-Alpha (H/I-style) as only having the: Piloted Intakes + LOX =427.37L
-Alpha (S-style) as only having the Piloted Intakes + LOX + Forward VTOL Thruster + Shoulder Sensor Pod =1122.01L
-Beta as only having the: Lower Leg Tanks (one per leg) + LOX = 4,840.37L

Additional/Replacement/Removal will impact performance numbers below in terms of endurance (time) and Delta-V. I am not going to look at all possible configurations, but may consider additional specific configurations in the future.

What is the impact on performance?
In terms of available thrust, the use of fusion engines modeled after the RT VF-1 would see an increase in raw thrust from the use of Over-boost (which the NG PC fueled versions appear to lack). Using OB-modified OSM thrust levels for the Alpha gives it a thrust/weight ratio of ~5.67 and the Beta is ~2.5. This compares to a T/W Ratio of 2.6 for the PC Alpha (H/I) and 1.09 for the PC Beta (solo, note due to OSM vs RT weight change, I increased the thrust proportionally for the RT version from the OSM for the Beta).

In terms of atmospheric performance then both the Alpha and Beta can potentially see an increase in potential speed due to their higher thrust, though drag will prevent an easy 1:1 ratio change of thrust to increased speed. The higher speed is also at over boost. Additional thrust derived maneuverability for each fighter will also go up.

In Space, the resulting Delta-V with a standard payload (by RPG mass) comes out to (Beta lists solo first, then combo with the Alpha):
-Alpha (H/I) Option3 (22.48kps) vs Option2 (4.67kps)
-Alpha (S) Option3 (58.08kps) vs Option2 (12.06kps)
-Beta Option3 (129.19kps/85.97kps) vs Option2 (26.83kps/17.85kps)
-VF1 baseline Option3 (93.76kps) vs Option2 (19.47kps)
-baseline PC fueled Alpha (8.56ps) and Beta (30.63kps/20kps)

Operational Endurance times at full thrust using overboost are as follows (atmosphere/space):
-Alpha (H/I) Option3 (12.73hr/44.17min) vs Option2 (12.73hr/9.17min)
-Alpha (S) Option3 (9.75hr/115.96min) vs Option2 (9.75hr/24.08min)
-Beta Option3 (109.85hr/321.11min) vs Option2 (109.85hr/66.69min)
-VF1 baseline Option3 (48hr/50min) vs Option2 (48hr/10.38min)
-baseline PC fueled Alpha (336hr/3.29min) and Beta (336hr/48min)

Note the PC fueled version of the Alpha and Beta assume RPG listed canister numbers with an assumed fuel density of 0.975kg/L (for comparison SLMH is 0.85kg/L) which really can not go any higher (a fueled canister needs to be able to float in water). Some other assumptions are also involved, like forcing them to have Delta-Vs comparable to what I estimate the OSM has (which itself has assumptions). In effect these should not be viewed as their “canon” values. I am interpreting the RPG operating time here to be 2 weeks of constant use (this is the most demanding operating time based on the RPG’s stated time, a less demanding time is of course possible). It should be noted the PC version technically has Sub-Orbital (if not full Orbital) Earth capability, but from a practical sense it just exhausted all of its fuel limiting what it can do once it gets there (this agrees potentially with canon depending on if it is supposed to be a “practical” or “technical” limit).

Conclusion
Note the conclusions drawn here are based in on the assumptions that went into the above work, and should be limited to this WHAT-IF Scenario as said assumptions may not be accurate in terms of canon Robotech if they are ever filled in at a later date.

In terms of raw thrust metrics (Thrust-Weight Ratio, raw thrust, etc) both the Alpha and the Beta would seem to benefit from the use of a fusion system, though it should be noted that for the most part this could be duplicated by engineering in an overboost system for the craft’s baseline protoculture systems. The main question is can something like that even be done (and if it is advisable). Food for thought.

In terms of performance operating time in an atmosphere the fusion vehicles tend to suffer compared to their Protoculture Counter parts, and compared to the VF-1 the Alpha suffers but the Beta is a marked improvement. It probably should be considered though that the ASC Veritechs achieve a 3.5x greater operating time than the VF-1 (168hrs) with a 66% chance due to increased fuel efficiency (33% chance they just have bigger tanks) which is not be considered here because it is unclear if the ASC units are more fuel efficient (not to mention how much more) or have bigger tanks than the VF-1. Placing the VF-1 in Option2 with the Alpha/Beta in Option3 essentially operate as the ASC improved versions is a viable setup.

In terms of space performance it gets a bit more interesting. In terms of operating time, the fusion systems beat out the Protoculture system counter version part every time. In terms of Delta-V (analogous to a combined speed/range in space) Option 3 creates far more viable platforms than the PC version, but with Option 2 the Alpha (H/I) and Beta do not do as well. The Beta (solo or with Alpha) has enough Delta-V to fly from the surface of the Earth to the Lunar surface, and aside from the Option 2 Alpha (H/I) can all achieve SSTO at Earth with some level of propulsive power remaining

The main limiter on the Alpha and Beta performance is simply fuel capacity, in the fusion setups if you can find the room you can improve things the main issue is if you can find the space be it atmospheric use or space use. Getting to a break even point in terms of operating time (atmosphere) requires finding the room, and the Beta should have no trouble, but I don’t think the Alpha can work even using every possible option in the above list.

What may be interesting is that the Zentreadi and Masters both have numerous examples of using a Reflex Furnace to power fusion engines (sometimes text indicates plasma instead of fusion), which makes one wonder why the UEEF continually went with pure Protocutlure setups (TSC Main, NG SB, GP SB, Marines SB) given they had fusion technology available (backup system, plus they are the primary drivers for the UEDF mecha for nearly 30years before falling to the Invid). Hydrogen fuel is also much more readily accessible than Protoculture. This might mean the UEEF setup is like the Zent/Masters given the backup fusion system (meaning no PC and the fusion system has to be self-sustaining where it wouldn’t need to be when PC is available to power the reaction).

Posted: **Sun May 24, 2020 9:24 pm**

I've got a colony in my game that was located an impractical distance form the UEEF supply lines, so they relied exclusively on SLMH and other alternative power sources. They adapted their own line of Alphas that used SLMH. I kept things simple and basically kept the performance the same as the non-z variant Alphas, endurance the same as ASC veritechs. The SLMH Alphas do not have a Cyclone bay (internal space needed form the SLMH adaptation). The colony goes on to supply the Ark Angel with veritech squadrons for the SDF-3 locate mission.

Posted: **Mon May 25, 2020 12:17 am**

plug&play...no
the alphas and betas are as small as lang could design them and still put weapons on them.
Fuel bunkerage: 48 to 96 hours worth of constant space flight time. so carrier based only. the life support consumables will take up more space then the fuel.

Base the reduction of performance (i.e. combat bonuses) on the reduction of performance the hover tanks have when switched to fusion power plants.

Posted: **Mon May 25, 2020 2:25 am**

the Logan counters that claim drew. it is a third the size of the Alpha, almost twice as fast, and has two weeks of fuel endurance.

and the Logan predates the Alpha. and since there are no protoculture powered hovertanks, i'm not seeing your point on the idea of MECT reduction. especially since protoculture has no "machine man link stuff" going on in current continuity.

Posted: **Mon May 25, 2020 6:29 am**

This just made me think of why BattleTech mecha are so much heavier than Robotech mecha while still being comparable in volume. Hmmmm.

Anyway, that was really good extrapolation ShadowLogan. Good point glitterboy2098. I always forget that the Logan is actually a good mecha...actually, most of the ASC stuff is pretty good, they just look ugly. Who designed those things (in universe...)? They clearly did not prioritize aesthetics...yuck.

-STS

Posted: **Mon May 25, 2020 10:59 am**

glitterboy2098 wrote:the Logan counters that claim drew. it is a third the size of the Alpha, almost twice as fast, and has two weeks of fuel endurance.

and the Logan predates the Alpha. and since there are no protoculture powered hovertanks, i'm not seeing your point on the idea of MECT reduction. especially since protoculture has no "machine man link stuff" going on in current continuity.

And the Logan only has its nose laser cannon internal.....

"Logan, you have failed to meet parameters, you dismissed from the forge."

Posted: **Mon May 25, 2020 4:42 pm**

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:the Logan counters that claim drew. it is a third the size of the Alpha, almost twice as fast, and has two weeks of fuel endurance.

and the Logan predates the Alpha. and since there are no protoculture powered hovertanks, i'm not seeing your point on the idea of MECT reduction. especially since protoculture has no "machine man link stuff" going on in current continuity.

And the Logan only has its nose laser cannon internal.....

"Logan, you have failed to meet parameters, you dismissed from the forge."

and the Alpha only has that pair of dinky nose lasers. (remember the gunpod has its own isolated power packs)
missiles don't use much power to fire. (they are by design, self powering). and the two fighters have largely similar avionics.

and by being three times larger the alpha has more volume for use as SLMH storage tanks. especially in those wings, which aren't being used for anything else and in terms of internal volume each should provide as much or more fuel storage than the Logan's entire system. (given the Logan does not appear to havem uch in the way of large internal spaces much less ones not obviously filled by other hardware)

here, size compare using images right off robotech.com's chart*: [Link]
*their size compare pages sadly are member only otherwise i'd link straight there

(also interesting size note: one Logan is only a little bit bigger then a single dorsal FAST-pack off a VF-1. mostly by width. [link to fan made size compare]
additional size image.. Logan's are tiny. [LINK]

as far as the idea is concerned. i don't see why you couldn't do a SLMH fueled Fusion turbine Alpha. honestly i've often figured that the remass the Alpha's plasma engines use in space is probably SLMH anyway (PC powered ship and mecha using SLMH as remass would help explain where earth reverse engineered SLMH tech from on the SDF-1 after all. presumably the SDF-1's backup/secondary power systems could have been fusion reactors as well. combined with real world theory and experiments in fuusion prior to the late 90's and earth would be able to copy such systems fairly easily. we already know the principles and physics, the sticking point IRL has been figuring out the physical layout of the reactor in order to get sustained fusion with more output than it takes to maintain the reaction)

i don't think a fusion Alpha would be any faster than a PC one. airframes are designed for a specific set of speeds. too much higher than the designed velocities and you start having issues with airframe stress, stability, etc. plus it would let you get away with less powerful and thus potentially more robust engines.

as far as MECT goes.. the only mecha that i know of to switch power systems without extensive alterations to anything else is the VHR-2 Myrmidon hovertank, which spent the reconstruction and 2nd war as a SLMH fusion powered vehicle, but whcih was modified into the NHR--2S "widomaker" during the Invid occupation, a protoculture powered machine using an 8 cell power plant.

the Myrmidon had the following MECT:
+1 attack per melee at levels 2, 4, 8, 12.
+2 init
+2 strike ranged
+2 strike melee
+2 parry
+4 dodge
+1 disarm
+2 pull punch
+2 roll w/ impact.

the Widowmaker has;
+1 attack per melee at levels 2, 4, 8, 12.
+2 init
+2 strike ranged
+2 strike melee
+2 parry
+4 dodge
+1 disarm
+2 pull punch
+2 roll w/ impact.

these are identical MECTS as you can see. thus a switch between Fusion and protoculture had no effect on the machine's combat capabilities.

the only difference? the fusion powered Myrmidon has an endurance of 10 days. the PC powered Widowmaker has an endurance of two weeks (336 hours).

Posted: **Mon May 25, 2020 6:28 pm**

The alphas and betas would still need to redesigned for everything to fit.
Wasn't saying it couldn't be done....was just saying that it couldn't be done with off the reactors with off the shelf airframes. And that they would loose maneuverability with the redesign because they would be Heavier/Bigger (maybe just 5% but that is still bigger) and would loose the normal mecha avionics which are PC dependent.

Posted: **Mon May 25, 2020 11:47 pm**

ShadowLogan wrote:The Following is a WHAT-IF Scenario and is not about the canon configuration of the New Generation Alpha or Beta, but rather an alternate version that could be plugged in a few different ways should the GM want to (IMU, AU-version, alternate engine configuration from the Genia-era carried forward or Shadow alternative, dual PC/Fusion setup seen elsewhere, etc).

To what useful end, though? The Alpha is more or less canonically A Bad Idea and the Beta’s a failed concept twice over.

ShadowLogan wrote:What if the Alpha and Beta where equipped with a VF-1-type fusion engine/propulsion system (OSM Block5 engines) in place of the Protoculture-based system the Alpha and Beta use? This requires answering the following 3 questions:
-Can Fusion Engines be made to fit?
-How much SLMH fuel can each carry?
-What is the impact on performance?

Your answers are “No ones like the FF-2001A”, “Not enough”, and “Significant” respectively.

ShadowLogan wrote:Can Fusion Engines be made to fit?
Really the RPG allows these mecha to have backup fusion engines,[...]

No, it does not.

What the RPG does, in fact, grant them is a backup fusion generator. Not a backup fusion engine, a backup fusion generator to power whatever type of engine they’re using that is normally dependent on the protoculture cells. The backup is also only operable for a very short duration and not able to meet the energy demands of the entire aircraft or even most of it.

(See RTSC core book pg.102 right column under “Power System”.)

ShadowLogan wrote:[...] so the answer is obviously yes given they can squeeze in a backup system to take over for the Protoculture system at reduced capacity. It can be shown that the known full-size engines from the VF-1/8/10 can be made to fit the Beta and 2/3 of them can fit the Alpha based on what we know of both units. Basically the answer is YES you can make full powered fusion engines that can fit either mecha.

You missed some VERY important context here that throws your whole argument out of whack.

The Valkyrie’s high-performance fusion engines each contain their own dedicated fusion reactor that’s used to generate power AND produce thrust. The later, less capable models of engine on the Masters Saga mecha are smaller… but they’re not self-contained systems anymore. Those smaller models of engine no longer contain a dedicated reactor system of their own, they get all their motive power from an external stand-alone reactor elsewhere in the mecha. (See Masters Saga sourcebook pages 82 and 88.) So if you’re converting an Alpha or Beta to use the fusion engine tech of their Earth-bound contemporaries, you not only have to replace the engines and totally redo the fuel system… you have to find room for a separate, stand-alone reactor system that’s robust enough to power those engines. In an aircraft with as little workable space as the Alpha, that alone is almost certainly a deal-breaker.

ShadowLogan wrote:This also assumes the RPG operating time is for ATMOSPHERIC use and not in space.

This, at least, is a safe assumption.

ShadowLogan wrote:How much SLMH fuel can each carry?
Based on measurements of Cyclone Lineart profile views, one can estimate the size of the cylindrical Protoculture Canister to be 4-Liters (approximate, I rounded down). [...]

But once you’ve switched from protoculture canisters to fusion, there is no reason at all to keep to the canister-based fuel system… which would not provide anywhere near enough fuel for an extended period of operation. This, of course, runs into other logistical problems with this idea in the form of having almost no internal space for fuel storage apart from the inside of the wing.

ShadowLogan wrote:-Each Wing can potentially hold around 184.89L (treating it as a basic triangle, which it is not), however practically speaking some of this volume will not be available due to transformation mechanisms, structural support, control surface mechanisms, etc.

When I sat down and worked it out based on the modifications needed to convert the wings into fuel tanks, I got somewhere between 120L and 140L per wing.

ShadowLogan wrote:What is the impact on performance?
In terms of available thrust, the use of fusion engines modeled after the RT VF-1 would see an increase in raw thrust from the use of Over-boost (which the NG PC fueled versions appear to lack).

But engines like that won’t fit in the Alpha, and contemporaneous fusion engine systems have a different design dependent on an external reactor and are significantly less capable. How much less capable is unhelpfully obscured by Palladium’s generally poor math when it comes to stats like airspeed… unintentionally adding a 4-5% margin of error to many entries.

The fusion engines used by the Alpha and Beta’s Earth-bound contemporaries seem to top out at less than half of the maximum airspeed and only a fraction of the service ceiling compared to the VF-1A-5’s FF-2001A engines. You’ll note their highest listed service altitude is only 10km… we could call their service ceiling 15-18km if we’re generous enough to extrapolate from other, non-transformable aircraft in service at the same time. (Though it’s also worth noting that the contemporary non-transformable fusion-powered aircraft have even worse endurance… with some having as little as 55 minutes of total operating time in exchange for their more powerful engines (that are still significantly less powerful and capable than the VF-1’s, with less than 20% of the VF-1’s service ceiling and only about half its top speed).

glitterboy2098 wrote:the Logan counters that claim drew. it is a third the size of the Alpha, almost twice as fast, and has two weeks of fuel endurance.

Um… some of that is wrong.

Funnily enough, the RPG actually has wrong stats for the Logan that make it around the same size as the Alpha. The Alpha does weigh around 2.57x as much as the Logan does (16,700kg vs 6,500kg). The Logan’s flying speed at 10km is Mach 1.21, where the Alpha’s is Mach 1.55. The Alpha’s listed top speed in regular atmospheric flight (Mach 2.44) is more than double the Logan’s. Also, the Logan’s onboard fuel supply stat gives it an endurance of 7 days, not 14.

glitterboy2098 wrote:[...] and the Logan predates the Alpha. [...]

Sort of? The Logan went into production first, but the Alpha’s development started earlier… hence its lower design number. Basically, the simpler design made it into production first despite starting later.

glitterboy2098 wrote:especially since protoculture has no "machine man link stuff" going on in current continuity.

Now this is correct.

slade the sniper wrote:This just made me think of why BattleTech mecha are so much heavier than Robotech mecha while still being comparable in volume. Hmmmm.

That’s because BattleTech’s creators are American and the creators of Robotech’s source material are Japanese… fundamentally different schools of design thought when you’re talking about robots.

slade the sniper wrote:Good point glitterboy2098. I always forget that the Logan is actually a good mecha...actually, most of the ASC stuff is pretty good, they just look ugly. Who designed those things (in universe...)? They clearly did not prioritize aesthetics...yuck.

It’s not actually a very good point… a fair amount of what he said was incorrect, and to put the cherry on it, the Logan is actually canonically garbage in both Robotech and the original Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross. The OSM rated its combat capability more in terms of being a nuisance than an actual threat.

Aesthetically… that’s what happens when you change genres so late in development and don’t want to hire professional design studios. Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross wasn’t actually conceived as a mecha show, it was originally a slice-of-life comedy series about young women based on famous historical figures like Jeanne d’Arc and Cleopatra (the only part of this that survived into the final product being Jeanne’s name and Lana’s/Cleopatra’s hairstyle), then it changed genres after some time to be a juxtaposition of Japanese feudal period dramas into the space/sci-fi setting called Science Fiction Sengoku Saga (which is where the elaborate armor came from, and the Zor Lords (Robotech Masters) mothership was originally a flying castle design that they removed the castle part from). It didn’t become a mecha show until very late in development, and didn’t even have a final title until right before it aired.

glitterboy2098 wrote:i don't think a fusion Alpha would be any faster than a PC one. airframes are designed for a specific set of speeds. too much higher than the designed velocities and you start having issues with airframe stress, stability, etc. plus it would let you get away with less powerful and thus potentially more robust engines.

This is actually a good point… the Super Shadow Fighter supposedly loaded the Alpha’s frame all the way to the design limit, and its performance doesn’t seem to be much higher than what’s shown by the regular kind.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:The alphas and betas would still need to redesigned for everything to fit.
Wasn't saying it couldn't be done....was just saying that it couldn't be done with off the reactors with off the shelf airframes. And that they would loose maneuverability with the redesign because they would be Heavier/Bigger (maybe just 5% but that is still bigger) and would loose the normal mecha avionics which are PC dependent.

The amount of rework necessary would basically entail throwing the entire aircraft away and just building a new one from scratch.

Mind you, as noted previously there is no protocuture-dependency in the avionics. That was an aspect of the setting that was never really in the series, and was dispensed with when the series was rebooted back in ‘01. Protoculture is just an exotic and versatile organic compound with an array of different applications like petroleum… it has no supernatural power, it doesn’t induce ESP, and it doesn’t make mecha “alive”.

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2020 12:36 am**

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:"Logan, you have failed to meet parameters, you dismissed from the forge."

Nice!

-STS

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2020 12:03 pm**

Seto Kaiba wrote:snip...
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:The alphas and betas would still need to redesigned for everything to fit.
Wasn't saying it couldn't be done....was just saying that it couldn't be done with off the reactors with off the shelf airframes. And that they would loose maneuverability with the redesign because they would be Heavier/Bigger (maybe just 5% but that is still bigger) and would loose the normal mecha avionics which are PC dependent.

The amount of rework necessary would basically entail throwing the entire aircraft away and just building a new one from scratch.

Mind you, as noted previously there is no protocuture-dependency in the avionics. That was an aspect of the setting that was never really in the series, and was dispensed with when the series was rebooted back in ‘01. Protoculture is just an exotic and versatile organic compound with an array of different applications like petroleum… it has no supernatural power, it doesn’t induce ESP, and it doesn’t make mecha “alive”.

tell that to an old schooler and you'll get a ...

"yah...riiiight....."*nods head with sardonicism*

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2020 12:18 pm**

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:the alphas and betas are as small as lang could design them and still put weapons on them.

The Beta in some respects is as big if not bigger than the VF-1 in terms of dimensions. ASC full-size mecha (VF, VHT, nt-Battloids, NO Power Armor) are smaller than their Macross-era and NG-era counter parts and they still have fusion systems available to them. The main issue I found is not IF these types of engines could fit, it was in terms of fuel storage and distribution.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Fuel bunkerage: 48 to 96 hours worth of constant space flight time. so carrier based only. the life support consumables will take up more space then the fuel.

No the life support consumables will not take up more space than the fuel. An average person will use 5kg total of food/water/air per day (water does not include hygine). The Fuel capacity of the VF-1 works out to over 1000kg of SLMH. Technically we don't know the fuel mass for ASC mecha nor the PC canisters (officially).

Constant Space Flight time of this nature is potentially physics breaking (the exhaust velocity of the engines can exceed the speed of light, which is not possible for matter). Which is why I avoided this issue and went with differing operational time. Even if it wasn't physics breaking per say (for specific configurations), from a flavor standpoint it would mean some of the limitations would have to be thrown out from the RAW baseline (like Alpha lack of self orbital insertion capacity).

Seto wrote:To what useful end, though? The Alpha is more or less canonically A Bad Idea and the Beta’s a failed concept twice over.

Thought Experiment mostly. One of the Alpha's deficiencies is in terms of propulsion, perhaps it would have been less of a "bad idea" with this change. The Beta was included for the period. There are other uses for looking at this from an RPG perspective (Alternate Universe, alternate engine configuration during the evaluation period, basis for IMU, a pre-Shadow Device Invid Stealth mecha the UEEF was developing, UEDF-ASC version, etc) that are more subject to the GM.

Seto wrote:What the RPG does, in fact, grant them is a backup fusion generator. Not a backup fusion engine, a backup fusion generator to power whatever type of engine they’re using that is normally dependent on the protoculture cells. The backup is also only operable for a very short duration and not able to meet the energy demands of the entire aircraft or even most of it.

I know it is a backup fusion generator to power the engines, but if you can make the generator that small for backup purposes then a full-size generator to replace the PC system and its fusion backup is possible.

Zentreadi and Robotech Masters use Reflex/PC power on their mecha to drive fusion engines (sometimes identified as plasma) for propulsion, so the UEEF mecha might be doing something similar (we just don't know) but as you said we know the ASC mecha use a fusion generator to power fusion engines (though why the ASC went this route is never explained, it could be technology limitations or it could be design preference we just don't know). So a split system is possible.

Seto wrote:But once you’ve switched from protoculture canisters to fusion, there is no reason at all to keep to the canister-based fuel system… which would not provide anywhere near enough fuel for an extended period of operation. This, of course, runs into other logistical problems with this idea in the form of having almost no internal space for fuel storage apart from the inside of the wing.

In this I agree, there is no need to keep the canister system itself. However since the canister systems takes up internal volume on the Alpha it would help to know how much of this volume is available for other purposes in a redesign.

As for the idea of no internal space for storage apart from the wing, this I have to disagree with. There are options as I've listed and at least one I did not (Leading Edge Extension, very small amount). The main issue with a lot of them results in needing to work out the plumbing.

Seto wrote:When I sat down and worked it out based on the modifications needed to convert the wings into fuel tanks, I got somewhere between 120L and 140L per wing.

I have no doubt the wing volume I calculated is an over estimation, I treated it as a basic triangle and ignored internal workings that would reduce the volume further. I would think it would be implied if using the wings in an evaluation to modify it by only making a given percentage available given I did mention in the OP that "practically speaking some of this volume will not be available due to transformation mechanisms, structural support, control surface mechanisms, etc. "

Seto wrote:But engines like that won’t fit in the Alpha, and contemporaneous fusion engine systems have a different design dependent on an external reactor and are significantly less capable. How much less capable is unhelpfully obscured by Palladium’s generally poor math when it comes to stats like airspeed… unintentionally adding a 4-5% margin of error to many entries.

I agree you can not just take the main VF-1 engine and substitute if for the main and secondary engines of the Alpha's. It will require a new engine designed to offer the same performance in smaller package, which should be possible. I dropped this line when it came to trying to work out the impact on atmospheric speed performance (and 6 engines of this type would mean a T/W ratio of ~8.26 IINM, getting into the SSF thing about structural limits though personally I think those limits are more in the realm of keeping the add-ons connected to the mecha than the mecha itself).

The Beta can actually FIT three main VF-1 engines with what little information is available, one in each leg (easily) plus the center-line engine (this might require a bit of fudging admittedly). I actually looked at this configuration, compared to the options presented the total thrust generated was not as good IIRC and so dropped it. I actually cut some things like this to keep the length down.

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2020 12:24 pm**

The role of the Beta is as of a transatmopsheric booster and a bomber. As such it has to be BIG, for the role it plays. And if it was to use fusion power plants it would be still bigger.

Remember that PC power plants are smaller to the fusion power plants of simmiler output.

Fusion fuel storage vs life support consumables. We know about how much space PC powered alphas take up... about 4 cubic feet. with each four PC can bundle taking up about a cubic foot of storage and extraction infrastructure.

life support storage isn't about weight/mass...it is about volume. and more SMLH can be stored in the same volume than that of life support consumables.

It is not like they were converting to use aviation fuel like was first used in the VF-0A. (Macross Zero)
https://macross.fandom.com/wiki/VF-0A_Phoenix

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2020 2:21 pm**

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:tell that to an old schooler and you'll get a ...

"yah...riiiight....."*nods head with sardonicism*

... in your dreams. :roll:

That was arguably the single most-mocked Macek attempted retcon in the Robotech's setting... especially its incarnation as the "thinking cap" of the McKinney novels. Fans HATED the idea with a passion, and pretty much nobody raised a word in its defense when Harmony Gold summarily threw it out back in 2001 along with all the other woo BS surrounding protoculture. :lol:

ShadowLogan wrote:The Beta in some respects is as big if not bigger than the VF-1 in terms of dimensions. ASC full-size mecha (VF, VHT, nt-Battloids, NO Power Armor) are smaller than their Macross-era and NG-era counter parts and they still have fusion systems available to them. The main issue I found is not IF these types of engines could fit, it was in terms of fuel storage and distribution.

Physical dimensions are an issue... but not nearly as much of an issue as internal configurations, packaging efficiency, and available space for fuel storage. The Alpha and Beta's internal configurations are quite different from those of the VF-1 or later fusion-powered fighters, and might not facilitate easy adaptation to a different engine technology. There's definitely not enough space in the Alpha to adopt an all-in-one solution like the VF-1's, and the configurations used by later VFs pose even more packaging issues due to needing to package a separate thermonuclear reactor along with the main engines.

ShadowLogan wrote:No the life support consumables will not take up more space than the fuel. An average person will use 5kg total of food/water/air per day (water does not include hygine). The Fuel capacity of the VF-1 works out to over 1000kg of SLMH. Technically we don't know the fuel mass for ASC mecha nor the PC canisters (officially).

1,198.5kg, if we're being precise. For reference, the statistically average 50th percentile human male weighs 78kg (this is the average used for the Hybrid III crash test dummy standard male). So the fuel not only weighs more than life support consumables, fuel weighs over 15 times what the pilot himself does.

ShadowLogan wrote:Constant Space Flight time of this nature is potentially physics breaking (the exhaust velocity of the engines can exceed the speed of light, which is not possible for matter). Which is why I avoided this issue and went with differing operational time. Even if it wasn't physics breaking per say (for specific configurations), from a flavor standpoint it would mean some of the limitations would have to be thrown out from the RAW baseline (like Alpha lack of self orbital insertion capacity).

The RPG generally does not consider things like propellant for space flight... so that aspect is probably best ignored altogether.

ShadowLogan wrote:I know it is a backup fusion generator to power the engines, but if you can make the generator that small for backup purposes then a full-size generator to replace the PC system and its fusion backup is possible.

Potentially... but then you run into the problem that contemporary fusion systems are nowhere near powerful enough to not have SIGNIFICANT performance losses compared to the stock protoculture-powered model. We're talking falloffs of between 50 and 80%.

ShadowLogan wrote:Zentreadi and Robotech Masters use Reflex/PC power on their mecha to drive fusion engines (sometimes identified as plasma) for propulsion, so the UEEF mecha might be doing something similar (we just don't know) but as you said we know the ASC mecha use a fusion generator to power fusion engines (though why the ASC went this route is never explained, it could be technology limitations or it could be design preference we just don't know). So a split system is possible.

Given that the Alpha/Beta don't seem to require a second, separate fuel source for atmospheric service it seems unlikely that they're using protoculture-powered fusion engines... that would otherwise further curtail their operating time to a level below that of the fuel cell endurance.

As to the existence of split systems, the reason they exist seems fairly self-evident to me. These aircraft are being engineered to be quite small, and no longer have the available airframe space for an all-in-one engine-reactor system and/or the necessary cooling and fuel systems to sustain multiple reactors. They have to make do with much less powerful engines driven indirectly by a single fusion reactor to work within packaging constraints.

ShadowLogan wrote:As for the idea of no internal space for storage apart from the wing, this I have to disagree with. There are options as I've listed and at least one I did not (Leading Edge Extension, very small amount). The main issue with a lot of them results in needing to work out the plumbing.

That's what I'm getting at... the Alpha's internal configuration is NOT conducive to all that plumbing with all the other hot mess it's got going on in there.

On the VF-1, Logan, and AGACs, the fuel tanks are at least in the same zip code as the engines... the Alpha doesn't seem to have that luxury most of the time.

ShadowLogan wrote:I agree you can not just take the main VF-1 engine and substitute if for the main and secondary engines of the Alpha's. It will require a new engine designed to offer the same performance in smaller package, which should be possible.

If that were possible, we would see that borne out in the Masters Saga mecha... but we don't. The fusion engine technology available in the late 2020s is substantially less capable than what was used during the 2000s and 2010s. They have between 1/5th and 1/10th the service ceiling, they're at-best around 1/3 as fast, and the best of them have such poor fuel efficiency that the fighters drain the tank dry in under an hour. If it were possible to provide similar performance in a smaller package, we would see the Logan and AGACs having similar performance to the VF-1... not a fraction of it like they actually do.

ShadowLogan wrote:The Beta can actually FIT three main VF-1 engines with what little information is available, one in each leg (easily) plus the center-line engine (this might require a bit of fudging admittedly). I actually looked at this configuration, compared to the options presented the total thrust generated was not as good IIRC and so dropped it. I actually cut some things like this to keep the length down.

The Beta could conceivably fit the engines themselves... but its intakes definitely aren't up to that level of airflow, and you'll have some weird-as-hell ducting and cooling issues since there's not much free internal space.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Remember that PC power plants are smaller to the fusion power plants of simmiler output.

While it is indicated in official sources that, as a fuel, protoculture has greater "power density" than "conventional nuclear sources"... but that doesn't actually back up the assertion that a protoculture-powered VF has similar generator output to a fusion-powered one. The significant disparity in performance between the VF-1 and Alpha strongly suggests the opposite, in fact.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:life support storage isn't about weight/mass...it is about volume. and more SMLH can be stored in the same volume than that of life support consumables.

... this just plain doesn't make sense. Volume is volume. It doesn't change based on what you put into it. 1 liter of water occupies the same volume as 1 liter of metallic hydrogen. Mass is what's the difference there. The amount of volume needed for life support consumables is fairly trivial.

Assuming, for the sake of pure silliness, you had no oxygen scrubbers and were using just stored breathing mixture, you need a volume of gas equivalent to 4.5L in a standard "aluminum-80" scuba tank to survive on an hourly basis. If you're going to be out in space for 48 hours, that's 216L of breathing mixture... well under the 1,410L of fuel carried by the VF-1 and still less than the minimum lowball estimate of 240L of fuel carried by the fusion!Alpha. That's twelve standard scuba tanks worth of air, BTW. But since there ARE oxygen-recycling systems in play and the average human isn't really going to consume more than about 4L of water per day on average, the actual volume taken up by life support consumables is shockingly small. The entire Apollo CSM had a combined 41L of water for both waste purposes and potable water for its entire mission.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:It is not like they were converting to use aviation fuel like was first used in the VF-0A. (Macross Zero)
https://macross.fandom.com/wiki/VF-0A_Phoenix

The VF-0 was not converted to use overtuned conventional turbofan jet engines and aviation fuel... it was designed to use conventional engines and aviation fuel because, at the time it was developed, thermonuclear reaction turbine engines were not available. It was originally planned to be upgraded with the thermonuclear reaction turbine engines when they became available, but due to delays at the manufacturer it did not receive that upgrade until after the end of the Unification Wars. (Excluding a handful of units that were upgraded for data collection in space operations, which were initially outfitted with the FF-1999 engine from the QF-3000E Ghost, called VF-0-NF.)

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2020 3:50 pm**

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Remember that PC power plants are smaller to the fusion power plants of simmiler output.

[Citation Needed]

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2020 8:57 pm**

The VF series planes are powered but Two fusion engines. Located within their lower legs.
Persuptively one would presume that the power plants for Alphas are in the same place.
(yes there is no direct stats in the text so every comparison has to be done inferentially)

Based on the artwork...(cause that is the only thing that one can based size differences) the alpha's lower legs are 4 meters tall. This includes the knee structure and the 1 meter heal thrust vector containment structure. So the max the proportion engine can be is about 2.5 meters (approximately 8 feet)

The VF from grand to middle on the knee structure is 5 meter. Excluding the thrust vectoring foot structure, that is 4 meters which is where the fusion engines.

But you might argue that the Alpha's legs are thicker....remember that there are missile launchers in the alpha's legs. And that the alpha's legs are the same thickness as the VF series mecha. And the VF series do not have leg launched missiles.

Yes, it is very much a lot of Little Things that add up to the conclusion.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =3&theater
The size differences between the VF series, the alphas and hover tanks are like the size difference between Gandalf, the dwarves and a small hobbit. (see the relevant movies)

Posted: **Wed May 27, 2020 3:05 am**

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:The VF series planes are powered but Two fusion engines. Located within their lower legs.

In Macross, yes... albeit with exceptions where there are either more than two engines (e.g. VF-2SS, VA-1SS, VF-27, YF-29), designs where the engines are not in the legs (e.g. YF-21/VF-22, VA-3), and designs that have additional power sources above and beyond their engines (e.g. YF-27-5, YF-29, YF-30, VF-31 Custom).

In Robotech and the other 2/3 of its source material, not so much... there's only one place the Logan's powerplant could be, and that's directly behind the cockpit and between its engines, there's no clear location for the Auroran's except in its center torso between the engines, the Legioss's are in its upper torso, we don't know where the TLEAD's are...

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Persuptively one would presume that the power plants for Alphas are in the same place.

Nope... they're in the upper torso.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:(yes there is no direct stats in the text so every comparison has to be done inferentially)

... you're joking, right? You literally see them being refueled in the show, and there are official cutaways showing us exactly where the Legioss's (RT: "Alpha's") powerplants are. Those cutaways are from the Genesis Climber MOSPEADA: Color Graffiti book, and reprinted in several other official series artbooks.

Posted: **Wed May 27, 2020 10:32 am**

Seto wrote:Potentially... but then you run into the problem that contemporary fusion systems are nowhere near powerful enough to not have SIGNIFICANT performance losses compared to the stock protoculture-powered model. We're talking falloffs of between 50 and 80%.

I'm not so sure on this. Sure if we want to compare a back-up system's performance to its primary on the Alpha and Beta (and by extension the nt-mecha that use their Standard Features), but then when you have things like the later IMU's that switch from SLMH fusion to PC with no loss in speed (there is a difference in operating time) when you look at the AGAC and VHT-2 IMUs in NG SB (other IMUs in NG SB or GP SB are applicable), and the only other hydrogen powered vehicle with PC conversion stats I could find wasn't fusion powered.

I think the main performance drop off for mecha that make the conversion is for operating time, but not speed/mobility. The A/B examples while relevant to some degree should also be noted are back-up systems and might have been purposefully designed to NOT provide full power or capability for some reason.

Seto wrote:As to the existence of split systems, the reason they exist seems fairly self-evident to me. These aircraft are being engineered to be quite small, and no longer have the available airframe space for an all-in-one engine-reactor system and/or the necessary cooling and fuel systems to sustain multiple reactors. They have to make do with much less powerful engines driven indirectly by a single fusion reactor to work within packaging constraints.

It is possible that the UEDF/UEEF sought smaller output reactors, which would make things easier. The Alpha in the OSM generates what ~2.7-3.0MW total depending on the model, and the Beta is ~3.4MW (if we increase the output proportionally to the mass increase between OSM/RT, otherwise ~3.0MW) vs the VF-1 and its ~600MW (IIRC) (if the 2E RPG is accurate the VHTs generate ~1.8MW and the AGAC ~9.4MW). IF the PC version is designed to meet certain power requirements, the fusion version likely is to and since it has much smaller output cooling/size is going to be a lot easier.

Seto wrote:That's what I'm getting at... the Alpha's internal configuration is NOT conducive to all that plumbing with all the other hot mess it's got going on in there.

On the VF-1, Logan, and AGACs, the fuel tanks are at least in the same zip code as the engines... the Alpha doesn't seem to have that luxury most of the time.

I agree in actual practice sites chosen for the Alpha are going to have to consider the plumbing issue. But they still have to consider plumbing issue on the PC version since 4 of the 6 engines aren't connected directly to the intake modules like the remaining 2 are. So any sites that can be chosen to exploit the intake modules are perfectly valid, I would think anything in the central "spine" would also be valid (tapping into existing infrastructure from the PC version given it has to connect up 2 VTOL "engines" and the legs). The Wings, nosecone, missile replacements are much harder to provide plumbing for (missiles probably would be tied directly to a given engine).

Seto wrote:If that were possible, we would see that borne out in the Masters Saga mecha... but we don't. The fusion engine technology available in the late 2020s is substantially less capable than what was used during the 2000s and 2010s. They have between 1/5th and 1/10th the service ceiling, they're at-best around 1/3 as fast, and the best of them have such poor fuel efficiency that the fighters drain the tank dry in under an hour. If it were possible to provide similar performance in a smaller package, we would see the Logan and AGACs having similar performance to the VF-1... not a fraction of it like they actually do.

The thing is we do not know actually how much fuel the Logan and AGAC (and other ASC mecha/vehicles) carry, but what we know is that the VFs get 3.5x the operating time of the VF-1 (in atmosphere). This means to me that the performance requirements were balanced differently than the preceding generation. Plus we have to consider the criteria that went into these three vehicles, which could also skewer things (the Chimera nt-Fighter suggests they can make something around par for the VF-1).

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:life support storage isn't about weight/mass...it is about volume. and more SMLH can be stored in the same volume than that of life support consumables.

No it is about mass, not volume. You consume a fixed amount of Oxygen by mass not volume, you can theoretically store the O2 as a gas at STP or under pressure (to reduce volume) or as a cyrogenic substance (to breathe it you'd have to convert it back to a gas obviously). The Math I used in evaluating various performance depended on the mass not the volume.

Posted: **Wed May 27, 2020 11:52 am**

ShadowLogan wrote:I'm not so sure on this. Sure if we want to compare a back-up system's performance to its primary on the Alpha and Beta (and by extension the nt-mecha that use their Standard Features), [...]

For this, I'm only looking at production-level systems... those of the Logan, AGACs, and the non-transformable fighters that are contemporaries of the Alpha.

The AGACs, for instance, was the UEDF's most advanced fusion-powered VF in the late 2020s and despite being roughly comparable in size and mass to the Alpha its performance is only about half that of the older Alpha fighter.

ShadowLogan wrote:[...] but then when you have things like the later IMU's that switch from SLMH fusion to PC with no loss in speed (there is a difference in operating time) when you look at the AGAC and VHT-2 IMUs in NG SB (other IMUs in NG SB or GP SB are applicable), and the only other hydrogen powered vehicle with PC conversion stats I could find wasn't fusion powered.

It's probably better if we ignore the IMUs, since essentially nothing about them makes any logical sense... even within the already-strained logic of the Palladium RPG system.

ShadowLogan wrote:I think the main performance drop off for mecha that make the conversion is for operating time, but not speed/mobility. The A/B examples while relevant to some degree should also be noted are back-up systems and might have been purposefully designed to NOT provide full power or capability for some reason.

Really, I think the best argument against this is that the Alpha's fusion-powered contemporaries are so much less capable despite operating in the same role.

Performance-wise, the AGACs is about on par with the Alpha's backup system... and that's its main powerplant!

ShadowLogan wrote:It is possible that the UEDF/UEEF sought smaller output reactors, which would make things easier. The Alpha in the OSM generates what ~2.7-3.0MW total depending on the model, and the Beta is ~3.4MW (if we increase the output proportionally to the mass increase between OSM/RT, otherwise ~3.0MW) vs the VF-1 and its ~600MW (IIRC) (if the 2E RPG is accurate the VHTs generate ~1.8MW and the AGAC ~9.4MW). IF the PC version is designed to meet certain power requirements, the fusion version likely is to and since it has much smaller output cooling/size is going to be a lot easier.

But that's not quite what we see here... we see the UEDF go from a larger aircraft with an all-in-one solution where the reactor system is built directly into the engine to a much smaller aircraft where the reactor and engine systems are separate. There's no real sense in not having the more efficient and capable all-in-one system if you can swing it, so they must have scaled down to the point that that wasn't a viable option anymore.

ShadowLogan wrote:The thing is we do not know actually how much fuel the Logan and AGAC (and other ASC mecha/vehicles) carry, but what we know is that the VFs get 3.5x the operating time of the VF-1 (in atmosphere). This means to me that the performance requirements were balanced differently than the preceding generation. Plus we have to consider the criteria that went into these three vehicles, which could also skewer things (the Chimera nt-Fighter suggests they can make something around par for the VF-1).

I kind of already covered why this reasoning doesn't work... esp. WRT the Chimera and other non-transformable fighters having only enough fuel for an hour of flight at maximum speed.

Posted: **Wed May 27, 2020 1:59 pm**

Seto wrote:For this, I'm only looking at production-level systems... those of the Logan, AGACs, and the non-transformable fighters that are contemporaries of the Alpha.

Then you really need to review the ASC's Chimera, it has an operating time of 36hours (pg170, it has operating altitudes comparable to the VF-1: sea level and 25km, and unlike the VF-1 lists a space speed ((Mach 11)) which is quite comparable to the VF-1 using 4 engines. It might be best to avoid direct comparison on speed sense the aerodynamics of the platform can play a role here, and we know the later generations do not seem to practice what is best for aerodynamics.

Seto wrote:t's probably better if we ignore the IMUs, since essentially nothing about them makes any logical sense... even within the already-strained logic of the Palladium RPG system.

I can agree the IMUs are best ignored, but in this case they seem to be the only real examples of dedicated fusion craft switching to Protoculture in the books. I know the UEEF has back-up fusion systems, but that can be problematic sense as a back-up system there is no guarantee it is designed to perform to the same level as a dedicated main system. In fact...

Seto wrote:Performance-wise, the AGACs is about on par with the Alpha's backup system... and that's its main powerplant!

???
Sylphid: @Sea Level ~1470kph, @15km 2817.4kph
Falcon: @Sea Level ~1470kph, @15km 2695kph
Chimera: @Sea Level ~1715kph, @25km 3062kph, @Space 13397.12kph
Logan Jet Mode: @Sea Level ~700kph, @10km 1500kph, @Space 3062kph
AGAC Jet Mode: @Sea Level: 1000kph, @10km: 1660kph, @Space: 3920kph
Alpha (H/I) Jet Mode on back-up: @Sea Level ~230kph, @10km 632.7kph, @30km 999kph
Alpha (H/I) Jet Mode on PC: @Sea Level ~1100kph, @ 10km 1900kph, @30km 3000kph

The Alpha's backup system reduces speeds by 2/3 (pg102 Manga edition, or did they change that with the full-size?), the same is true for the Beta. I think this shows that the backup system on the Alpha is not on par with the main systems in terms of what it can deliver in terms of performance. Endurance is another matter I will agree, but the Logan and AGAC (and Chimera) all have endurance that exceed the backup system on the Alpha/Beta.

Seto wrote:But that's not quite what we see here... we see the UEDF go from a larger aircraft with an all-in-one solution where the reactor system is built directly into the engine to a much smaller aircraft where the reactor and engine systems are separate. There's no real sense in not having the more efficient and capable all-in-one system if you can swing it, so they must have scaled down to the point that that wasn't a viable option anymore.

Simply put I do agree that the all-in-one solution is the better setup. However what I am saying is how large would the VF-1 engine be if it was designed to generate 1/10th or even 1/100th the power output. Keeping multiple reactors cool that are generating 100s of MW is a lot harder than to do than the same setup generating 10s of MW or even single digit MWs of power.

Posted: **Wed May 27, 2020 10:04 pm**

Seto Kaiba wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:The VF series planes are powered but Two fusion engines. Located within their lower legs.

In Macross, yes... albeit with exceptions where there are either more than two engines (e.g. VF-2SS, VA-1SS, VF-27, YF-29), designs where the engines are not in the legs (e.g. YF-21/VF-22, VA-3), and designs that have additional power sources above and beyond their engines (e.g. YF-27-5, YF-29, YF-30, VF-31 Custom).

In Robotech and the other 2/3 of its source material, not so much... there's only one place the Logan's power plant could be, and that's directly behind the cockpit and between its engines, there's no clear location for the Auroran's except in its center torso between the engines, the Legioss's are in its upper torso, we don't know where the TLEAD's are...

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Persuptively one would presume that the power plants for Alphas are in the same place.

Nope... they're in the upper torso.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:(yes there is no direct stats in the text so every comparison has to be done inferentially)

... you're joking, right? You literally see them being refueled in the show, and there are official cutaways showing us exactly where the Legioss's (RT: "Alpha's") power plants are. Those cutaways are from the Genesis Climber MOSPEADA: Color Graffiti book, and reprinted in several other official series art books.

You are talking to a macross fan. So If I say VF series, might it not be wise to recognize that the 1st gen of RT is Macross. And that I am talking about those mecha.
Besides in RT the engines are in those mecha are in the same place at in Macross.

formatting critique: If you are going to comment on two line of a person's post put them together. The way you decided the separate my to lines of text and say the same thing twice does maki look like you were not paying attention to what you were responding to.

There are no direct comparisons ...WITHIN THE PB's RT2 GAME BOOKS.....so such comparisons can not be directly made about sizes of the internal working except through inferential means.

Yes, the PC cans are inserted into the top of the plane behind the cockpit. But the 'gas tank; does not need to be next to the motor.

Note I did provide a link to size comparison picture I found on the www. If you are going to reference an art book that old you need to provide links to the pictures you are talking about. And it would be better if they were readable as to make your point.
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ShadowLogan wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:life support storage isn't about weight/mass...it is about volume. and more SMLH can be stored in the same volume than that of life support consumables.

No it is about mass, not volume. You consume a fixed amount of Oxygen by mass not volume, you can theoretically store the O2 as a gas at STP or under pressure (to reduce volume) or as a cyrogenic substance (to breathe it you'd have to convert it back to a gas obviously). The Math I used in evaluating various performance depended on the mass not the volume.

If it is correct that usage of O2 is measured at a mass rate (note this medical knowledge is not part of my personal knowledge thus the disclaimer) that only means the designer has figure out HOW MUCH VOLUME THAT MASS OF GAS TAKES UP WHEN STORED. Whether it is stored as a compressed gas or in liquid form in up to the designer too.

Take a look at the command module cutaways for the lunar landings, They used cryogenic O2 and H2 tanks.
Here is a pict from a impartial source that isn't unreadable from being blown up from a fingernail.
https://history.nasa.gov/diagrams/ad004.gif

Fun Fact of the RT2 Alphas....they have a tiny fusion generator as back up. But it is limited to operation in flying and hovering in plane mode only. But at only two thirds speed, & for only 2 hours.

Posted: **Thu May 28, 2020 1:29 am**

ShadowLogan wrote:Then you really need to review the ASC's Chimera, [...]

You are correct, I forgot it was in a different section of the book from the others... it is an odd and significant outlier compared to the other aircraft in the era though.

ShadowLogan wrote:Simply put I do agree that the all-in-one solution is the better setup. However what I am saying is how large would the VF-1 engine be if it was designed to generate 1/10th or even 1/100th the power output. Keeping multiple reactors cool that are generating 100s of MW is a lot harder than to do than the same setup generating 10s of MW or even single digit MWs of power.

The question you'd have to ask is "how much power is the VF-1 generating in Robotech?"

In Macross, each of the VF-1's two engines generated 650 megawatts at standard operating levels... but the reactor technology in Macross is much more advanced than the technology that's available in Robotech, given that it used a gravity and inertia control system to compress fuel instead of using lasers or electromagnets. It also had the advantage of having its fuel double as one of the reactor's cooling systems, since the engine was immediately adjacent to an insulated tank containing hundreds of liters of cryogenic fuel slush. I very much doubt the Robotech VF-1 would be generating anywhere near the same level of power as it was in the OSM.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:You are talking to a macross fan. So If I say VF series, might it not be wise to recognize that the 1st gen of RT is Macross. And that I am talking about those mecha.

Point of order, all "Veritech Fighters" in Robotech would logically be "VF series"... they all have "VF" in their designations. Your point was not true for the majority of VF-designated aircraft in the Robotech setting, and therefore required correction. If you had said "Valkyrie series" that would have gotten your intention across clearly.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Besides in RT the engines are in those mecha are in the same place at in Macross.

Sort of? The RPG indicates the VF-1 in RT has a third fusion reactor elsewhere in the airframe that is not present in the OSM design.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:There are no direct comparisons ...WITHIN THE PB's RT2 GAME BOOKS.....so such comparisons can not be directly made about sizes of the internal working except through inferential means.

There's actually a picture on page 96 of the core book that shows power umbilicals connected up to the fuel system.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Yes, the PC cans are inserted into the top of the plane behind the cockpit. But the 'gas tank; does not need to be next to the motor.

In a transforming mecha, putting the engine and the engine's fuel source right next to each other is the obvious thing to do. That way you don't lose your connection to your fuel source if some other part of the mecha takes damage or the transformation goofs up. That'd be why the VF-1's primary fuel tanks are also in its lower legs (and that's also where the conformal fuel tanks from the Super Packs connect for obvious reasons), why the Ride Armor's HBT cell is directly adjacent to its engine, and why the Legioss's HBT cells are directly atop its main powerplant.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Take a look at the command module cutaways for the lunar landings, They used cryogenic O2 and H2 tanks.

Point of order, those are actually the fuel and oxidizer for the Apollo CSM's three fuel cells. Small amounts of pure oxygen were bled off to maintain cabin pressure, but that was not the primary source of oxygen for the crew... the lithium hydroxide air scrubbers were.

Posted: **Thu May 28, 2020 8:38 am**

Seto wrote:You are correct, I forgot it was in a different section of the book from the others... it is an odd and significant outlier compared to the other aircraft in the era though.

I agree its odd, but I think we have to also remember that we do not know several key bits of information that would help in an assessment. We do not know things like the amount of fuel any of the ASC mecha/vehicles carry, or their fuel consumption rate, etc. All we have is speed/range and fuel type and engine type.

Seto wrote:The question you'd have to ask is "how much power is the VF-1 generating in Robotech?"

That is a good question to. Since these are supposed to be "conventional" fusion systems... Ask TY/HG, though they'd probably say go with the OSM.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Fun Fact of the RT2 Alphas....they have a tiny fusion generator as back up. But it is limited to operation in flying and hovering in plane mode only. But at only two thirds speed, & for only 2 hours.

Yes we know about the back up fusion generator, its been mentioned in several posts. While you have the duration correct "the speed of the mecha is reduced by 2/3" which means its speed is 1/3.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Note I did provide a link to size comparison picture I found on the www. If you are going to reference an art book that old you need to provide links to the pictures you are talking about. And it would be better if they were readable as to make your point.

http://www.gearsonline.net/series/mospe ... man-mecha/

Select AFC01H Legois, you'll find the image Seto is referencing. Said images can also be found on other websites (uRRG, Robotech Research). So while the source might be old, it is pretty easy to find on the web.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Fuel bunkerage: 48 to 96 hours worth of constant space flight time. so carrier based only. the life support consumables will take up more space then the fuel.

Constant Space Flight Time. That is so setting breaking.

If all the RT VTs can generate 1G of acceleration constant (and they should), then a trip arriving from Earth at:
-Lunar Distance between 3.35-3.58hrs
-Mars Distance between 41.98-112.34hrs
-Venus Distance between 34.58-90.64hrs

With exact travel time depending on distance between Earth and the given body (it varies), pretty much this means that any VT with its 48hr life support system could travel to those three bodies (and anywhere in between). Ignoring Life Support limits (or packing extra) the PC systems on the Alpha/Beta could range as far as Uranus, the ASC units could reach Jupiter. And if you want to just do a fly-by (Voyager 1&2 style) and not slow down to arrive the trip times will be shorter plus the Alpha can range out to Pluto and ASC units out to Saturn before exhausting the power plants. This is at 1G of constant acceleration (which all the VFs in RT should be capable of at minimum), if any of them can do more than this they can range potentially farther/faster than this.

Delta-V capability that would result also breaks the setting information. There would be no reason for the Beta to exist, or at least the need for the Alpha and Beta to connect. And this is without doing any extra math. Both the Logan and AGACs would then be capable of SSTO.

Posted: **Fri May 29, 2020 5:17 am**

ShadowLogan wrote:I agree its odd, but I think we have to also remember that we do not know several key bits of information that would help in an assessment. We do not know things like the amount of fuel any of the ASC mecha/vehicles carry, or their fuel consumption rate, etc. All we have is speed/range and fuel type and engine type.

Just sloppy writing, I suspect... the Chimera's in the same class of aircraft as the others, some of them have so little fuel they can't even sustain their top speed for an hour.

ShadowLogan wrote:That is a good question to. Since these are supposed to be "conventional" fusion systems... Ask TY/HG, though they'd probably say go with the OSM.

Granted, that'd probably be Tommy's gut reaction... but there was a concerted effort to at least justify the Alpha's existence in the official setting so they might give it more thought than that.

ShadowLogan wrote:Constant Space Flight Time. That is so setting breaking.

I can't find any entry in the RPG that matches that description... but then again, that could be entertainingly misleading.

For instance, if the OSM VF-1 ran solely on rocket boosters instead of its main turbines it would technically have a 133 day continuous space operating time with Super Packs. Continuous operation doesn't necessarily mean continuous thrust generation.[/quote]

Posted: **Fri May 29, 2020 11:03 am**

Seto wrote:Just sloppy writing, I suspect... the Chimera's in the same class of aircraft as the others, some of them have so little fuel they can't even sustain their top speed for an hour.

Sloppy writing perhaps, but one that might actuallya be justifiable given in the animation its used as a fleet escort fighter all the way from Earth to the Moon (off hand I don't recall actual landing/take-off from surface of said bodies, but they are deployed during the transfer).

Seto wrote:I can't find any entry in the RPG that matches that description... but then again, that could be entertainingly misleading.

Well the RPG makes no distinction between atmospheric operating time vs space operating time, or thrust generation time vs electrical generation time. It's all the same to them apparently, but what I am saying is that because of that ambiguity if you do the math some things start to break.

A vehicle that could generate 1G of acceleration (9.806m/s/S) for days at time straight is going to be much more capable than they might suspect, and result in some material being inconsistent with itself or broken. For example the Alpha's lack of SSTO (and by extension justification for the Beta) can't be justified. If the Alpha could generate, for example, 1.14G (which it can do) regardless of conditions for 336hrs (assuming 2 week constant operation time of the 2E RPG) it's Delta-V would be ~13,521.9kps over that time (even if we take "heavy" use to be 12hr per day it doesn't help). For comparison the Shuttle launch is around 10minutes at 3G maximum acceleration, for simplicity lets assume that is constant acceleration and time is exact, it would have ~10.6kps by the same math (in reality the time is less IINM and the acceleration does not remain constant). It would be a little hard to justify the Alpha's lack of SSTO given the above, or the existence of the Beta in large part (Alpha wouldn't need it as a booster/fuel tank). The same holds true for the Logan and AGAC and VF-1.a

Posted: **Fri May 29, 2020 12:18 pm**

ShadowLogan wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Note I did provide a link to size comparison picture I found on the www. If you are going to reference an art book that old you need to provide links to the pictures you are talking about. And it would be better if they were readable as to make your point.

http://www.gearsonline.net/series/mospe ... man-mecha/

Select AFC01H Legois, you'll find the image Seto is referencing. Said images can also be found on other websites (uRRG, Robotech Research). So while the source might be old, it is pretty easy to find on the web.

seen it and it turns out we were both only sort of right about the positioning.
But I was completely correct in that not possible to just plug and play VF engines into the alpha.

Posted: **Fri May 29, 2020 3:01 pm**

ShadowLogan wrote:Sloppy writing perhaps, but one that might actuallya be justifiable given in the animation its used as a fleet escort fighter all the way from Earth to the Moon (off hand I don't recall actual landing/take-off from surface of said bodies, but they are deployed during the transfer).

Not quite what I meant... I was referring to the fact that the other fighters using similar engines have less than a hour's worth of fuel and a combat range that would be pathetic even by modern fighter standards.

ShadowLogan wrote:Well the RPG makes no distinction between atmospheric operating time vs space operating time, or thrust generation time vs electrical generation time. It's all the same to them apparently, but what I am saying is that because of that ambiguity if you do the math some things start to break.

To be fair, it's more like the RPG doesn't even consider the subject of operating in space... all the stats are written around performance in a planetary atmosphere, with the only concession to space use being the occasional "top speed in space" entry.

Posted: **Sat May 30, 2020 1:08 am**

Seto Kaiba wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:Sloppy writing perhaps, but one that might actuallya be justifiable given in the animation its used as a fleet escort fighter all the way from Earth to the Moon (off hand I don't recall actual landing/take-off from surface of said bodies, but they are deployed during the transfer).

Not quite what I meant... I was referring to the fact that the other fighters using similar engines have less than a hour's worth of fuel and a combat range that would be pathetic even by modern fighter standards.

That is true. I guess the question is how they came to these figures in the first place. I pulled out my copy of 1E Book 4 (thinking C&P) with those conventional fighters and 1E out-ranges their 2E counter parts in 3 out of 4 times (other metrics I did not look at, just "range"), the exception being 2E Chimera outclassing 1E version (though it unlike the others actually had fusion engines, in fact the other 3 have no engine type listed at all). Nor does it look like they used the uRRG.

The ranges are short in 2E, but that isn't so much an issue if one goes with aerial refueling (which is a capability not called out, so it would be a GM call).

Seto Kaiba wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:Well the RPG makes no distinction between atmospheric operating time vs space operating time, or thrust generation time vs electrical generation time. It's all the same to them apparently, but what I am saying is that because of that ambiguity if you do the math some things start to break.

To be fair, it's more like the RPG doesn't even consider the subject of operating in space... all the stats are written around performance in a planetary atmosphere, with the only concession to space use being the occasional "top speed in space" entry.

More likely than not this is true. Even their other lines dealing with actual space settings do this to a large extent.

Posted: **Sun May 31, 2020 1:13 am**

I made it simple in my games:

SLMH and Protoculture are interchangeable. The storage medium and duration is what is different.

In Macross the human mecha did not have a storage medium, other than basic aircraft style fuel tanks. In the Masters saga the human mecha use SLMH Fuel Stacks (which basically is a human Protoculture Canister).

So now it goes to duration: Duration is Twice as much. If the duration of a mech was 1 week, it is now 2 weeks. If it is 2 weeks, it's now 4 weeks. And it goes backwards the same way for NG level mecha using SLMH.

I also have Invid use Protoculture Canister's as well. Usually about a quarter of their NG based counterparts (they are just that much more efficient). And the Masters and Zentraedi also use the Invid Canister's and use about 1/2 of their NG based counterparts.

Simple is key... and it ties into why humans started using canister systems, and why the Invid have a storage supply.

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