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While trying to plan how to explain armor repair costs to my players, my research showed... a rather high price in the Source Book 1. The other goto that everyone mentions is to have an Operator in the Party, or just use the Field Armorer and Munitions skill. Well, that's all fine and dandy... but how much does it cost the Operator?

So, I set out to develop a Invoice Style Breakdown that would let the Operators offer repairs at Material cost, and explain why it's 7,000 Credits per 10 MDC at your typical shop. I plan on building an Excel Spreadsheet for this if there is any interest. But, in the meantime I'm running them on jobs that either pay well, or offer Hazard pay covering necessary repairs. I agree that the costs should be prohibitively expensive to balance the Nigh invulnerable Murder-Hobo potential... but not... that.... high! If you run through the Invoice at full cost, depending on the type of materials it can actually be more expensive than the costs listed in SB1. And, I do think that the Giant Robot Repair costs are fairly accurate, with the exception of having a different cost for 10 MDC of repair based on whether the armor is for a human or a robot. After all, armor is armor so unless Giant Robot MDC armor is made out of something entirely different from the MDC Armor that human size people are wearing...

Anyhew, here it be.

Most professional repair shops and Operators for Hire follow the quoted prices in Rifts SourceBook 1. For Player Characters, the following rules can allow Operators to offer the other Player Characters a cheaper alternative for repairs while maintaining a realistic cost system. This house rule is primarily for armor from human-size armor, smaller Robot Vehicles, and other Vehicle repairs.

Repair Time
• 1D4 hours per first 100 M.D.C
• 1D4 hours per subsystem (Radio, HUD, Sensors, Basic Weapons)
• 1D4 Days per complex systems (Flight System, Boom Gun, Exotic/Alien or Foreign)

Materials
Man-Sized are less expensive than Robot/Vehicle Sized as scraps may be left over from the sheet material. Cost of M.D.C. needed for repair = (Needed M.D.C.)/200*Cost per sheet. To replace 10 M.D.C. Standard Material = 10/200*10,000 = 500 credit material cost.
• Standard M.D.C. Material
o 10,000 credits per 200 M.D.C. Sheet
o If you want to calculate Chain, Composite, Plastic per Sourcebook 1, take the credits per 10 MDC of that armor type, divide it by the plate cost and multiply by 10,000. Round up to the nearest 100 Credits
• Glitter Boy
o 15,000 Credits per 200 M.D.C. Sheet
• Exotic/Alien
o Varies, 20,000 to 2D6*10,000 per 200 M.D.C. Sheet if available.
o Standard M.D.C. Material can be used to patch [Alien/Exotic] at above cost, but Welding may not hold under massive damage exceeding 80 M.D.C. Roll percentile dice, 20% + 10% per level of operator. On a failed roll the patch breaks and the repair is ripped off, leaving only the M.D.C. before the repair.
• Optional: Over-Sized (Giant Robot or Vehicle require larger/thicker sheets for full M.D.C.) House Rule Note: personally, I don’t see how replacing 10 MDC of armor on a Robot Vehicle would have any difference in cost than 10 MDC of armor on a human sized suit.
o 100,000 Credits per 200 M.D.C Sheet

Labor 1,000 Credits plus the following.
• Electronic/Computer 500 Credits
• Hydraulics/Electro-Motive 2D6*100 Credits
• Flight Systems/Aerodynamics 1D4*10,000 Credits
• Sensor Calibration 500 Credits
• Weapon Systems Percentage of current MDC to total MDC * cost of weapon

Environmental System Repair
• 1,000 Credits (Usually Necessary only if a section of armor has been completely destroyed, or a Pilot Compartment has been breached)

De-Contamination Most Operators will refuse to work on armor that could kill them through simple contact, if their CBRN (chemical, biological, radiological or nuclear) detector is triggered the following costs apply. They add if more than one contaminant is present.
• Radiation 500 Credits (Note radiation can occur in materials without nuclear detonation)
• Chemical 900 Credits
• Bio-Contamination 1200 Credits
• Nuclear Explosion exposure 1500 Credits
• No De-Contamination 250 Credits per 10 M.D.C (Operator must do complicated micro-soldering, welding, mechanical and electrical in a clumsy full environmental suit. Also voids any guarantees that the suit is contaminant free. At the GM’s discretion, there is a chance of the suit’s user being exposed. They will need to roll once every 12 hours of use on the Save vs. Lethal or Non-Lethal Poison or Disease until a decontamination occurs.)

Fabrication
3D Reconstruction
• On File (30 Credits)
• Not on File (Note most Suits of Armor and Robot Vehicles come with a user manual, and basic repair info. The Blueprints are not included. A large part of Operator expenses is the acquisition of complete detailed blueprints for repairs. These are often Black Market items available only from Black Market Contact, Rogue Scientists & Scholars. The GM may at their discretion allow a player to “have” and sell the blueprint to the operator using a random roll of 20% or less on percentile dice to locate the blueprint among black market sale-able items by any player with black market items.
o Cost of Blueprints (One time purchase, further repairs at the same shop/Operator don’t add this cost)
 2D4*10+30 for most local man-sized armor(for example North America vs. Japan vs. German have different designs).
 1D4*100 for most Powered Armors & Exoskeletons
 1D4*1000 for most M.D.C. Robot Vehicles/Giant Robots with Black Market Availability.
 3D6*1000 Proprietary/Top Secret Designs (NG, CS, Triax, H-Brand, Underseas and others without Black Market Availability). Sometimes more. Repairs can still be attempted using the Exotic/Alien patch rules.
 Exotic/Alien not available, or available through in game RP.

Surface Repair
• Macro Welding 50 Credits per 10 M.D.C (The repairs are clearly visible decreasing the resale value of the armor by 20%)
• Micro Welding 100 Credits per 10 M.D.C. (No visible marks, industry standard, good as new)
• Nano Welding 200 Credits per 10 M.D.C. (Required for GB armor and many specialized armors, Triax Industry Standard.)

Shop Rental
• Most shops charge 50 Credits per hour (+/- 10%) for Shop space. Double for large Vehicles and Robot Vehicles up to 20 feet. Giant sized Robots require specialized repair bays, but most repair shops will charge 200 Credits per hour per 10 feet of height/width, whichever is larger.
• Field Repairs can be made by any Operator, but a Shop decreases the repair time by 20-60%
• Many Operators invest in a personally owned shop, or specialized vehicles with Repair Bays as are found in the NGR/Triax, or can be purchased in Northern Gun (NG2).
• Portable Repair Tent/Shelter purchase. Decreases repair time by 15-20%
o 1,000 Credits for standard S.D.C. tent with support, double for Over-sized.
o 10,000 Credits for M.D.C. (5 M.D.C. per 5 feet of Tarp) Double for Over-sized

I have a simplified version of costs (though my explanation/justification isn't).

tl;dr - an Operator earns (as an employee) 500-1000 credits per hour. It takes 1 hour to repair 10 MDC. The cost of materials for repairing armor is 25% of the listed (Black) Market cost.

Full Explanation

Per RUE p.92, Operators can "completely repair most parts, machines and vehicles at a cost of 25% of its original list price (plus his time if he's charging for it; typically another 30% to 50%)."

SB1R has costs of MDC body armor repair, ranging from 5500-7000 depending on the material.

I think the following logic plays out:

An Operator can bring a vehicle back to life for 25% of its cost.
An Operator charges 30-50% of the above cost to do so.
Therefore, an Operator charges an extra 7.5-12.5% of his cost in time. Let's go average and say 10%.
This means repair cost is divided up as 10/11 parts and 1/11 profit.

So a suit of Plated armor which is 7000 credits to repair 10 MDC would cost 6364 credits in parts and 636 credits in labor/profit.

An Operator earns a shop 65k credits in 12 hours (trade of 12h time nets him 100k credits worth of goods for 35k - that's >= the shop's cost). The shop is earning 5416 credits per hour that the Operator works. Let's also say that if the shop were paying him, they would only pay 10-20% of what they bring in, so 541-1082 credits per hour.

In the above armor repair example, the shop's parts costs would be no more than 35% of the 6364 credits, or 2227 credits. So their parts markup is 4137 credits (6364-2227), and they pay the Operator 636 credits for this job. This falls in between 541-1082, which implies that it takes about an hour for an Operator to repair 10 MDC. It also earns the shop the 4137 credits for the parts markup, which is about the 5416 credits they make per hour of the Operator's work, minus the Operator's pay of 636 credits (4780 vs. 4137 - a relatively minor difference with these ranges).

For easy figuring, I'd probably just round these numbers and say that an Operator earns (as an employee) 500-1000 credits per hour. It takes 1 hour to repair 10 MDC. And the cost of materials for repairing armor is 25% of the listed (Black) Market cost (hold back 10% for the Operator's salary). This means that a 7000 credit repair job pays the Operator 700 credits, costs 1750 credits in parts, and nets the shop 4550 credits profit.

Repairing Robots/Power Armor

SB1R lists this as 40k/10 MDC.
In this case, let's apply the 1h/10 MDC rule first.
Operator earns (high end) 1k credits for an hour's work.
Parts cost 10k credits.
Shop revenue is 29k credits. This higher revenue percentage accounts for the shop having to equip heavy machinery and such.

narcissus wrote:I have a simplified version of costs (though my explanation/justification isn't).

tl;dr - an Operator earns (as an employee) 500-1000 credits per hour. It takes 1 hour to repair 10 MDC. The cost of materials for repairing armor is 25% of the listed (Black) Market cost.

Full Explanation

Per RUE p.92, Operators can "completely repair most parts, machines and vehicles at a cost of 25% of its original list price (plus his time if he's charging for it; typically another 30% to 50%)."

SB1R has costs of MDC body armor repair, ranging from 5500-7000 depending on the material.

I think the following logic plays out:

An Operator can bring a vehicle back to life for 25% of its cost.
An Operator charges 30-50% of the above cost to do so.
Therefore, an Operator charges an extra 7.5-12.5% of his cost in time. Let's go average and say 10%.
This means repair cost is divided up as 10/11 parts and 1/11 profit.

So a suit of Plated armor which is 7000 credits to repair 10 MDC would cost 6364 credits in parts and 636 credits in labor/profit.

An Operator earns a shop 65k credits in 12 hours (trade of 12h time nets him 100k credits worth of goods for 35k - that's >= the shop's cost). The shop is earning 5416 credits per hour that the Operator works. Let's also say that if the shop were paying him, they would only pay 10-20% of what they bring in, so 541-1082 credits per hour.

In the above armor repair example, the shop's parts costs would be no more than 35% of the 6364 credits, or 2227 credits. So their parts markup is 4137 credits (6364-2227), and they pay the Operator 636 credits for this job. This falls in between 541-1082, which implies that it takes about an hour for an Operator to repair 10 MDC. It also earns the shop the 4137 credits for the parts markup, which is about the 5416 credits they make per hour of the Operator's work, minus the Operator's pay of 636 credits (4780 vs. 4137 - a relatively minor difference with these ranges).

For easy figuring, I'd probably just round these numbers and say that an Operator earns (as an employee) 500-1000 credits per hour. It takes 1 hour to repair 10 MDC. And the cost of materials for repairing armor is 25% of the listed (Black) Market cost (hold back 10% for the Operator's salary). This means that a 7000 credit repair job pays the Operator 700 credits, costs 1750 credits in parts, and nets the shop 4550 credits profit.

Repairing Robots/Power Armor

SB1R lists this as 40k/10 MDC.
In this case, let's apply the 1h/10 MDC rule first.
Operator earns (high end) 1k credits.
Parts cost 10k credits.
Shop revenue is 29k credits. This higher revenue percentage accounts for the shop having to equip heavy machinery and such.

Nice Breakdown! I'll keep it handy. I especially appreciate the Percentage break-downs and extrapolation into what the Shop makes, and what they pay the Operator. The time issue I figure is a GM thing, but having some kind of tables/charts would be nice.

With the setup I had, I was in part basing it on my personal opinion that 7000 Credits is incredibly high for just some patchwork to restore 10 MDC. For most players that's more than their starting cash at Level 1. I also don't believe that level 1 characters would start out raking in the multiple of 10,000 to each player type missions that would pay for their first basic firefight. So, I figured the 7,000 Credits represented a whole bunch of unnecessary stuff that doesn't always apply, but the shop is willing to soak you for anyways.

A party Operator could skip the unnecessary stuff like De-Contamination if they already know the armor wasn't exposed to hazardous material.

Your set of rules is definitely faster.

I love this, we really needed it. I always thought the costs for repairs were WAY pout of scale. And its a solid framework for the average player or GM to use. I have and know some players who want to run a business in an rpg, not be combat monsters all the time.

narcissus wrote:I have a simplified version of costs (though my explanation/justification isn't).

tl;dr - an Operator earns (as an employee) 500-1000 credits per hour. It takes 1 hour to repair 10 MDC. The cost of materials for repairing armor is 25% of the listed (Black) Market cost.

Full Explanation

Per RUE p.92, Operators can "completely repair most parts, machines and vehicles at a cost of 25% of its original list price (plus his time if he's charging for it; typically another 30% to 50%)."

SB1R has costs of MDC body armor repair, ranging from 5500-7000 depending on the material.

I think the following logic plays out:

An Operator can bring a vehicle back to life for 25% of its cost.
An Operator charges 30-50% of the above cost to do so.
Therefore, an Operator charges an extra 7.5-12.5% of his cost in time. Let's go average and say 10%.
This means repair cost is divided up as 10/11 parts and 1/11 profit.

So a suit of Plated armor which is 7000 credits to repair 10 MDC would cost 6364 credits in parts and 636 credits in labor/profit.

An Operator earns a shop 65k credits in 12 hours (trade of 12h time nets him 100k credits worth of goods for 35k - that's >= the shop's cost). The shop is earning 5416 credits per hour that the Operator works. Let's also say that if the shop were paying him, they would only pay 10-20% of what they bring in, so 541-1082 credits per hour.

In the above armor repair example, the shop's parts costs would be no more than 35% of the 6364 credits, or 2227 credits. So their parts markup is 4137 credits (6364-2227), and they pay the Operator 636 credits for this job. This falls in between 541-1082, which implies that it takes about an hour for an Operator to repair 10 MDC. It also earns the shop the 4137 credits for the parts markup, which is about the 5416 credits they make per hour of the Operator's work, minus the Operator's pay of 636 credits (4780 vs. 4137 - a relatively minor difference with these ranges).

For easy figuring, I'd probably just round these numbers and say that an Operator earns (as an employee) 500-1000 credits per hour. It takes 1 hour to repair 10 MDC. And the cost of materials for repairing armor is 25% of the listed (Black) Market cost (hold back 10% for the Operator's salary). This means that a 7000 credit repair job pays the Operator 700 credits, costs 1750 credits in parts, and nets the shop 4550 credits profit.

Repairing Robots/Power Armor

SB1R lists this as 40k/10 MDC.
In this case, let's apply the 1h/10 MDC rule first.
Operator earns (high end) 1k credits for an hour's work.
Parts cost 10k credits.
Shop revenue is 29k credits. This higher revenue percentage accounts for the shop having to equip heavy machinery and such.

This is really good, I see a few holes in my own system that I can plug with your ideas so thanks.

slade2501 wrote:I love this, we really needed it. I always thought the costs for repairs were WAY pout of scale. And its a solid framework for the average player or GM to use. I have and know some players who want to run a business in an rpg, not be combat monsters all the time.

What you have to remember about repair costs is availability. If you are in a place with lots of operators and mechanics then the price should be lower. Out in the world with just one guy doing all the work the price should be high. Also we are talking MDC materials so higher price.

Labor, in general, in Rifts has always been tough to monetize. I had a PC group out west needing supplies from a town that had no need of credits but they need some sewers dug and work on there defense wall. Months of labor for villagers with shovels, about 20 hours of work for guys in giant robots and an operator whose hover vehicle has a crane and backhoe attachment. What is that worth?

Warshield73 wrote:

narcissus wrote:I have a simplified version of costs (though my explanation/justification isn't).

tl;dr - an Operator earns (as an employee) 500-1000 credits per hour. It takes 1 hour to repair 10 MDC. The cost of materials for repairing armor is 25% of the listed (Black) Market cost.

Full Explanation

Per RUE p.92, Operators can "completely repair most parts, machines and vehicles at a cost of 25% of its original list price (plus his time if he's charging for it; typically another 30% to 50%)."

SB1R has costs of MDC body armor repair, ranging from 5500-7000 depending on the material.

I think the following logic plays out:

An Operator can bring a vehicle back to life for 25% of its cost.
An Operator charges 30-50% of the above cost to do so.
Therefore, an Operator charges an extra 7.5-12.5% of his cost in time. Let's go average and say 10%.
This means repair cost is divided up as 10/11 parts and 1/11 profit.

So a suit of Plated armor which is 7000 credits to repair 10 MDC would cost 6364 credits in parts and 636 credits in labor/profit.

An Operator earns a shop 65k credits in 12 hours (trade of 12h time nets him 100k credits worth of goods for 35k - that's >= the shop's cost). The shop is earning 5416 credits per hour that the Operator works. Let's also say that if the shop were paying him, they would only pay 10-20% of what they bring in, so 541-1082 credits per hour.

In the above armor repair example, the shop's parts costs would be no more than 35% of the 6364 credits, or 2227 credits. So their parts markup is 4137 credits (6364-2227), and they pay the Operator 636 credits for this job. This falls in between 541-1082, which implies that it takes about an hour for an Operator to repair 10 MDC. It also earns the shop the 4137 credits for the parts markup, which is about the 5416 credits they make per hour of the Operator's work, minus the Operator's pay of 636 credits (4780 vs. 4137 - a relatively minor difference with these ranges).

For easy figuring, I'd probably just round these numbers and say that an Operator earns (as an employee) 500-1000 credits per hour. It takes 1 hour to repair 10 MDC. And the cost of materials for repairing armor is 25% of the listed (Black) Market cost (hold back 10% for the Operator's salary). This means that a 7000 credit repair job pays the Operator 700 credits, costs 1750 credits in parts, and nets the shop 4550 credits profit.

Repairing Robots/Power Armor

SB1R lists this as 40k/10 MDC.
In this case, let's apply the 1h/10 MDC rule first.
Operator earns (high end) 1k credits for an hour's work.
Parts cost 10k credits.
Shop revenue is 29k credits. This higher revenue percentage accounts for the shop having to equip heavy machinery and such.

This is really good, I see a few holes in my own system that I can plug with your ideas so thanks.

slade2501 wrote:I love this, we really needed it. I always thought the costs for repairs were WAY pout of scale. And its a solid framework for the average player or GM to use. I have and know some players who want to run a business in an rpg, not be combat monsters all the time.

What you have to remember about repair costs is availability. If you are in a place with lots of operators and mechanics then the price should be lower. Out in the world with just one guy doing all the work the price should be high. Also we are talking MDC materials so higher price.

Labor, in general, in Rifts has always been tough to monetize. I had a PC group out west needing supplies from a town that had no need of credits but they need some sewers dug and work on there defense wall. Months of labor for villagers with shovels, about 20 hours of work for guys in giant robots and an operator whose hover vehicle has a crane and backhoe attachment. What is that worth?

Naisu! Great Point

The PC Group is negotiating from a pretty high position of power... so, the considerations I think are, at what point do the villagers just say we can't afford this we'll do it ourselves, and at what point do the players begin to perceive the vast amount they are leveraging will begin to affect their reputation and/or be out of alignment. So, in the end my decision would come down to a judgement call on the group PC alignment makeup, and what the village can afford as my offer. Maybe tell them the villagers change their mind, and then send a lazy villager to say "please try again".

It'd probably be some reasonable lump sum of what they can afford, and a drinks/repairs on the house for the next 10 years.

carriath wrote:The other goto that everyone mentions is to have an Operator in the Party, or just use the Field Armorer and Munitions skill. Well, that's all fine and dandy... but how much does it cost the Operator?

I know that was probably a rhetorical question used solely as a lead-in to announce your house rules, but in the off chance you actually didn't know, the answer to that question is in the Operator description in the RUE. It costs them 1200 credits per point of MDC or 25% of the item's original price (whichever is cheaper).

carriath wrote:With the setup I had, I was in part basing it on my personal opinion that 7000 Credits is incredibly high for just some patchwork to restore 10 MDC. For most players that's more than their starting cash at Level 1. I also don't believe that level 1 characters would start out raking in the multiple of 10,000 to each player type missions that would pay for their first basic firefight. So, I figured the 7,000 Credits represented a whole bunch of unnecessary stuff that doesn't always apply, but the shop is willing to soak you for anyways.

It isn't all that bad.
It sounds expensive as hell and it certainly isn't cheap, but the players will be earning incredibly fortunes, incredibly fast too. Forget the starting cash, look at the starting equipment - the enemies should be just as well equipped, resulting in some serious profits when selling look to the Black Market. Killing a single Headhunter will result in about 100k worth of sales.
If you combine that huge capacity to earn money with a playstyle that emphasizes defense, your players won't have any trouble being profitable. Those high prices just result in the players having to take cover when they get in to a shootout because they want to preserve their armor, or even prioritizing non-violent options; and I think that sort of mentality is something that we shouldn't be trying to get rid of.

Giant2005 wrote:

carriath wrote:The other goto that everyone mentions is to have an Operator in the Party, or just use the Field Armorer and Munitions skill. Well, that's all fine and dandy... but how much does it cost the Operator?

I know that was probably a rhetorical question used solely as a lead-in to announce your house rules, but in the off chance you actually didn't know, the answer to that question is in the Operator description in the RUE. It costs them 1200 credits per point of MDC or 25% of the item's original price (whichever is cheaper).

carriath wrote:With the setup I had, I was in part basing it on my personal opinion that 7000 Credits is incredibly high for just some patchwork to restore 10 MDC. For most players that's more than their starting cash at Level 1. I also don't believe that level 1 characters would start out raking in the multiple of 10,000 to each player type missions that would pay for their first basic firefight. So, I figured the 7,000 Credits represented a whole bunch of unnecessary stuff that doesn't always apply, but the shop is willing to soak you for anyways.

It isn't all that bad.
It sounds expensive as hell and it certainly isn't cheap, but the players will be earning incredibly fortunes, incredibly fast too. Forget the starting cash, look at the starting equipment - the enemies should be just as well equipped, resulting in some serious profits when selling look to the Black Market. Killing a single Headhunter will result in about 100k worth of sales.
If you combine that huge capacity to earn money with a playstyle that emphasizes defense, your players won't have any trouble being profitable. Those high prices just result in the players having to take cover when they get in to a shootout because they want to preserve their armor, or even prioritizing non-violent options; and I think that sort of mentality is something that we shouldn't be trying to get rid of.

Good point, I'll be sure to keep up on the captured armor and equipment. That 1,200 from the Operator cost sets the cost to repair 10 MDC at 12,000 phewie.... It's true though, the question was a lead. There are just so many books, I had forgotten the Operator section. I guess the Operator has a higher cost due to field repairs.

I'm going to tune out of this thread for a bit, still checking back in. Thanks for the input and interest!