Forums of the Megaverse®

Posted: **Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:39 pm**

From the Weekly Update:

COMING! Rifts® Lazlo Raw Preview Edition

I spoke with the co-author, Mark Oberle, a few times the last couple of weeks, so I can tell you that his manuscript, to be offered as a Raw Preview, is almost done and sounds pretty awesome. He is continuing to expand upon the original concepts and I think he is nailing it. As I have said, I believe Lazlo will end up being a 2-4 book series, because there is just so much for this important location. This will be just the first book. In fact, I gave Mark the green light to start on one of the next Lazlo books as soon as he is done with this manuscript. The Raw Preview will be a September release for sure.

Well polish me up and call me a Glitter Boy, I was not expecting this. I've purchased a couple of Raw Previews in the past, my favorite being the Land of the Damned 3 for Palladium Fantasy. I'm quite curious to know how Erin Tarn's favorite spot will look. Thoughts?

Posted: **Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:41 pm**

When are they going to start putting out actual books again? So many promises and so little production...

Posted: **Sat Aug 22, 2020 8:34 pm**

I'm a bit apprehensive of the Lazlo book, only because it's one fans have asked about for 30 years. There's a lot of built up anticipation, and it's assured to be just a bit different than everyone's head-canon.

Posted: **Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:39 pm**

Mack wrote:I'm a bit apprehensive of the Lazlo book, only because it's one fans have asked about for 30 years. There's a lot of built up anticipation, and it's assured to be just a bit different than everyone's head-canon.

This is my concern as well. Let's face it we are all guilty of this with any book that is long anticipated. The great thing about a TTRPG is that you can pick and choose what you want from a book and ignore what you don't. I have a few books that I ignore a part here and there, and one that I ignore almost entirely, but they all have at least a few things worth using.

Posted: **Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:56 am**

they should have Victor Lazlo finally leave Europe and visit his buddy Erin in his namesake as a feature of this

and by now he is a supernatural being

Posted: **Mon Aug 24, 2020 4:42 pm**

Warshield73 wrote:
Mack wrote:I'm a bit apprehensive of the Lazlo book, only because it's one fans have asked about for 30 years. There's a lot of built up anticipation, and it's assured to be just a bit different than everyone's head-canon.

This is my concern as well. Let's face it we are all guilty of this with any book that is long anticipated. The great thing about a TTRPG is that you can pick and choose what you want from a book and ignore what you don't. I have a few books that I ignore a part here and there, and one that I ignore almost entirely, but they all have at least a few things worth using.

I rather liked the direction I saw Aftermath take Lazlo: overwhelmed with refugees and all the social/economic problems. My hope is to see some alternate worldviews that compete with those of Erin Tarn and internal political discord.

Posted: **Mon Aug 24, 2020 4:50 pm**

Hotrod wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
Mack wrote:I'm a bit apprehensive of the Lazlo book, only because it's one fans have asked about for 30 years. There's a lot of built up anticipation, and it's assured to be just a bit different than everyone's head-canon.

This is my concern as well. Let's face it we are all guilty of this with any book that is long anticipated. The great thing about a TTRPG is that you can pick and choose what you want from a book and ignore what you don't. I have a few books that I ignore a part here and there, and one that I ignore almost entirely, but they all have at least a few things worth using.

I rather liked the direction I saw Aftermath take Lazlo: overwhelmed with refugees and all the social/economic problems. My hope is to see some alternate worldviews that compete with those of Erin Tarn and internal political discord.

you know, do we have any real proof that lazlo shares tarn's views so much as they don't clash with her views in any way she'd notice? she does come across as a bit of a space cadet in the grand scheme of things....

Posted: **Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:39 pm**

Orin J. wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
Mack wrote:I'm a bit apprehensive of the Lazlo book, only because it's one fans have asked about for 30 years. There's a lot of built up anticipation, and it's assured to be just a bit different than everyone's head-canon.

This is my concern as well. Let's face it we are all guilty of this with any book that is long anticipated. The great thing about a TTRPG is that you can pick and choose what you want from a book and ignore what you don't. I have a few books that I ignore a part here and there, and one that I ignore almost entirely, but they all have at least a few things worth using.

I rather liked the direction I saw Aftermath take Lazlo: overwhelmed with refugees and all the social/economic problems. My hope is to see some alternate worldviews that compete with those of Erin Tarn and internal political discord.

you know, do we have any real proof that lazlo shares tarn's views so much as they don't clash with her views in any way she'd notice? she does come across as a bit of a space cadet in the grand scheme of things....

Revised from another thread I started about a year ago:

How I would portray Lazlo

When I was a kid, I once read in Mad Magazine: "How far can you open your mind before your brains fall out?" This would be the spiritual core of how I'd write Lazlo. By taking in so many, so fast, it's a would-be melting pot utopia that's quickly degenerating in prosperity, security, and identity. It's got shiny and clean parts surrounded by slums and refugee camps that are messy, dirty, and often dangerous. I'd describe Lazlo as a city undergoing rapid cultural, social, and demographic change with three main groups and philosophies vying for control.

The Tarnist Faction
This is the crowd that's been in power for a long time, and it's all about high-minded idealism and trying to save the world. They've hiked taxes way up and are trying to provide all kinds of aid both within the city and abroad. Erin Tarn is a staunch supporter of this group, but their support is waning, and they may get voted out of power soon without allying themselves with one of the other two power blocks.

The Refugees
Thanks to Lazlo's efforts, its large population of refugees isn't starving and desperate anymore. However, they are very poor, mostly unemployed, crammed into slums and refugee camps, and reliant on meager relief supplies while the citizens of Lazlo enjoy luxuries in comfortable, shiny buildings just a mile or two away. Many among the refugees that resent and even hate the Lazlo leadership for doing nothing while the CS crushed Tolkeen. Others resent the citizens of Lazlo who won't hire them and look down on them. Most hate the Coalition with a passion and want to see Lazlo take a more aggressive stance against the Prosek regime. Their leaders are veterans of the Tolkeen war, and some locals who live and work closely with this group are coming around to their point of view.

The Interventionists
Finally, there's a growing group of reactionary Pre-Tolkeen residents that's all about putting Lazlo First and wants the refugees re-settled somewhere far away. For the most part, this group is isolationist and consists of a broad mix of humans and debees. They're willing to support the fight against existential threats like the Xiticix, Four Horsemen, Mechanoids, and the Minion War, but otherwise prefer to keep out of foreign affairs. This line of thinking has spread to some of the folks in power, as Plato himself has recently aligned himself with this faction, splitting the Council of Learning.

Anyway, if I were to write up Lazlo, that's how I would do it. What do you think? How would you write up Lazlo?

Posted: **Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:24 pm**

A piece of my head-canon...

Since Lazlo has always had an emphasis on learning, the city's major institution would be a university. One that's combined with and almost dominates the government. So instead of Lazlo having a traditional intelligence service, the university would a field research branch responsible for exploration. Lazlo's military would fall under an Institute of War, where officers study the classics (Sun-Tzu, Clauswitz, Jomini, etc) as well as major battles from history, making a competent but small force. All the major guilds would effectively be departments within the School of Magic. Most of the city's leaders would be academics who rose to prominence through the university.

You get the idea. Start with a university structure, and then build Lazlo around it.

Posted: **Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:32 am**

Mack wrote:A piece of my head-canon...

Since Lazlo has always had an emphasis on learning, the city's major institution would be a university. One that's combined with and almost dominates the government. So instead of Lazlo having a traditional intelligence service, the university would a field research branch responsible for exploration. Lazlo's military would fall under an Institute of War, where officers study the classics (Sun-Tzu, Clauswitz, Jomini, etc) as well as major battles from history, making a competent but small force. All the major guilds would effectively be departments within the School of Magic. Most of the city's leaders would be academics who rose to prominence through the university.

You get the idea. Start with a university structure, and then build Lazlo around it.

Would you also have secret societies and ritual hazing to go along with it?

Posted: **Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:07 am**

Hotrod wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
Mack wrote:I'm a bit apprehensive of the Lazlo book, only because it's one fans have asked about for 30 years. There's a lot of built up anticipation, and it's assured to be just a bit different than everyone's head-canon.

This is my concern as well. Let's face it we are all guilty of this with any book that is long anticipated. The great thing about a TTRPG is that you can pick and choose what you want from a book and ignore what you don't. I have a few books that I ignore a part here and there, and one that I ignore almost entirely, but they all have at least a few things worth using.

I rather liked the direction I saw Aftermath take Lazlo: overwhelmed with refugees and all the social/economic problems. My hope is to see some alternate worldviews that compete with those of Erin Tarn and internal political discord.

Why? Rifts is already a dark dysfunctional place where even Camelot is run by a monster and there are literal Nazis running America we can't have even one place run by honest to goodness heroes instead the frightened and small minded? It would literally break people if there was one place like that on the planet?

Truthfully my worry is the opposite. There is this trend of late in fiction, See ST Picard or ST Discovery for examples, where everything that was once good now has to suck and that trend needs to die. Lazlo is a beacon of light, has been since RMB and anything else will be a massive retcon.

Orin J. wrote:you know, do we have any real proof that lazlo shares tarn's views so much as they don't clash with her views in any way she'd notice? she does come across as a bit of a space cadet in the grand scheme of things....

Everything about the city from RMB to present. But if you want specifics look at Lazlo's war against the Xiticix. There reasons for and the outcome of also look at how people were likely to react to the veterans of that war versus the Tolkeen war. Lazlo is not a large place but they saw a problem facing the entire world and when no one would help them with it they stood up and did it themselves with a large volunteer army. That's Big Dam Hero stuff.

Hotrod wrote:"How far can you open your mind before your brains fall out?"

Trying to not let loose on this one. Just like the phrase common sense you have to watch this cliché as it has been universally applied to almost everything we now consider to be good and wholesome like abolition of slavery and women's suffrage while also being applied to things that we now consider great historical shames like the Dawes Act. It use to be common sense that Native Americans couldn't raise there own children properly. You think they can? best make sure your mind isn't so open your brain falls out.

Historically speaking this is never really the case, it is almost always the opposite a "try not keep your mind so closed it cuts of the oxygen to your brain".

Hotrod wrote:Revised from another thread I started about a year ago:

How I would portray Lazlo

When I was a kid, I once read in Mad Magazine: "How far can you open your mind before your brains fall out?" This would be the spiritual core of how I'd write Lazlo. By taking in so many, so fast, it's a would-be melting pot utopia that's quickly degenerating in prosperity, security, and identity. It's got shiny and clean parts surrounded by slums and refugee camps that are messy, dirty, and often dangerous. I'd describe Lazlo as a city undergoing rapid cultural, social, and demographic change with three main groups and philosophies vying for control.

The Tarnist Faction
This is the crowd that's been in power for a long time, and it's all about high-minded idealism and trying to save the world. They've hiked taxes way up and are trying to provide all kinds of aid both within the city and abroad. Erin Tarn is a staunch supporter of this group, but their support is waning, and they may get voted out of power soon without allying themselves with one of the other two power blocks.

The Refugees
Thanks to Lazlo's efforts, its large population of refugees isn't starving and desperate anymore. However, they are very poor, mostly unemployed, crammed into slums and refugee camps, and reliant on meager relief supplies while the citizens of Lazlo enjoy luxuries in comfortable, shiny buildings just a mile or two away. Many among the refugees that resent and even hate the Lazlo leadership for doing nothing while the CS crushed Tolkeen. Others resent the citizens of Lazlo who won't hire them and look down on them. Most hate the Coalition with a passion and want to see Lazlo take a more aggressive stance against the Prosek regime. Their leaders are veterans of the Tolkeen war, and some locals who live and work closely with this group are coming around to their point of view.

The Interventionists
Finally, there's a growing group of reactionary Pre-Tolkeen residents that's all about putting Lazlo First and wants the refugees re-settled somewhere far away. For the most part, this group is isolationist and consists of a broad mix of humans and debees. They're willing to support the fight against existential threats like the Xiticix, Four Horsemen, Mechanoids, and the Minion War, but otherwise prefer to keep out of foreign affairs. This line of thinking has spread to some of the folks in power, as Plato himself has recently aligned himself with this faction, splitting the Council of Learning.

Anyway, if I were to write up Lazlo, that's how I would do it. What do you think? How would you write up Lazlo?

Sorry this just sounds boring...no that's too harsh repetitive is the right word. You could apply this to the Burbs, Northern Gun, the Colorado Baronies, really all of North America. With everything we know about Lazlo from RMB, Edict of Planetary Distress, and the Xiticix War they are just going to be different.

Mack wrote:A piece of my head-canon...

Since Lazlo has always had an emphasis on learning, the city's major institution would be a university. One that's combined with and almost dominates the government. So instead of Lazlo having a traditional intelligence service, the university would a field research branch responsible for exploration. Lazlo's military would fall under an Institute of War, where officers study the classics (Sun-Tzu, Clauswitz, Jomini, etc) as well as major battles from history, making a competent but small force. All the major guilds would effectively be departments within the School of Magic. Most of the city's leaders would be academics who rose to prominence through the university.

You get the idea. Start with a university structure, and then build Lazlo around it.

A long time player of mine ran a mercenary company as his solo game for years and wanted to work with Lazlo. This is exactly how we did it but remember "academic" is a relative term. One of my old bosses is at a major university teaching education so most would consider him an academic but he has 32 years as math and English teacher, school councilor, principal and assistant superintendent. He even drove a bus so way beyond academic knowledge. Likewise my old archaeology professor moved up to department chair and a much better university beating out older more published professors because he had extensive field experience. You see the same emphasis on practical experience in a lot of med schools too.

Looking at people like Plato and Tarn you have to imagine that in Lazlo field experience is going to be of paramount importance.

Posted: **Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:56 am**

Warshield73 wrote:
Hotrod wrote:"How far can you open your mind before your brains fall out?"

Trying to not let loose on this one. Just like the phrase common sense you have to watch this cliché as it has been universally applied to almost everything we now consider to be good and wholesome like abolition of slavery and women's suffrage while also being applied to things that we now consider great historical shames like the Dawes Act. It use to be common sense that Native Americans couldn't raise there own children properly. You think they can? best make sure your mind isn't so open your brain falls out.

Historically speaking this is never really the case, it is almost always the opposite a "try not keep your mind so closed it cuts of the oxygen to your brain".

I like the final quote there as a counterpoint to the one I shared. That's the kind of debate I would want to see presented in the Lazlo book (though with more Rifts-focused examples). I want to see Erin Tarn's perspective challenged in a way that doesn't invoke the radical authoritarianism of the CS. Lazlo is a city that accepts all peoples, cultures, and philosophies, and in the context of Rifts, that comes with some significant risks of putting people, cultures, and philosophies that are fundamentally incompatible next to each other. Just a few examples:
-Psi-stalkers are unlikely to blend well with the large magic-using population, as they see magic users as prey, while magic users see them as predators.
-Psi-Nullifiers instinctively disrupts magic, which would be a problem in a city built with techno-wizardry.
-A lot of people will not tolerate necromancy or witches, no matter what the law says
-Vampires can be independent sentients, but they need to feed.
-Psi-Slayers also need to kill as a form of nutrition.
-Some refugees are going to be unrepentant veterans of the Sorcerer's Revenge. Is Lazlo OK with harboring and supporting war criminals?
-Some refugees will want to wage campaigns of revenge against the CS and leverage the power and techno-wizardry of Lazlo to do so or use Lazlo as a safe harbor.
-Some Splugorth weapons and bio-wizardry require the ongoing enslavement and even torture of a sentient being. Shoot, that's how rune weapons are described. Is that allowed?
-There are many magics and powers that allow and even focus on the enslavement, torture, and murder of others.
-If all sentients have equal rights and legal standing, how does that sit with beings naturally predisposed to dominate and enjoy positions of privilege like dragons, lizard mages, et cetera?

Some of these issues would have simple solutions, while others would be exceedingly difficult to resolve. I would want to see vehement disagreement, particularly in the context of the Tolkeen refugee crisis.

Warshield73 wrote:
Hotrod wrote:Revised from another thread I started about a year ago:

How I would portray Lazlo

When I was a kid, I once read in Mad Magazine: "How far can you open your mind before your brains fall out?" This would be the spiritual core of how I'd write Lazlo. By taking in so many, so fast, it's a would-be melting pot utopia that's quickly degenerating in prosperity, security, and identity. It's got shiny and clean parts surrounded by slums and refugee camps that are messy, dirty, and often dangerous. I'd describe Lazlo as a city undergoing rapid cultural, social, and demographic change with three main groups and philosophies vying for control.

The Tarnist Faction
This is the crowd that's been in power for a long time, and it's all about high-minded idealism and trying to save the world. They've hiked taxes way up and are trying to provide all kinds of aid both within the city and abroad. Erin Tarn is a staunch supporter of this group, but their support is waning, and they may get voted out of power soon without allying themselves with one of the other two power blocks.

The Refugees
Thanks to Lazlo's efforts, its large population of refugees isn't starving and desperate anymore. However, they are very poor, mostly unemployed, crammed into slums and refugee camps, and reliant on meager relief supplies while the citizens of Lazlo enjoy luxuries in comfortable, shiny buildings just a mile or two away. Many among the refugees that resent and even hate the Lazlo leadership for doing nothing while the CS crushed Tolkeen. Others resent the citizens of Lazlo who won't hire them and look down on them. Most hate the Coalition with a passion and want to see Lazlo take a more aggressive stance against the Prosek regime. Their leaders are veterans of the Tolkeen war, and some locals who live and work closely with this group are coming around to their point of view.

The Interventionists
Finally, there's a growing group of reactionary Pre-Tolkeen residents that's all about putting Lazlo First and wants the refugees re-settled somewhere far away. For the most part, this group is isolationist and consists of a broad mix of humans and debees. They're willing to support the fight against existential threats like the Xiticix, Four Horsemen, Mechanoids, and the Minion War, but otherwise prefer to keep out of foreign affairs. This line of thinking has spread to some of the folks in power, as Plato himself has recently aligned himself with this faction, splitting the Council of Learning.

Anyway, if I were to write up Lazlo, that's how I would do it. What do you think? How would you write up Lazlo?

Sorry this just sounds boring...no that's too harsh repetitive is the right word. You could apply this to the Burbs, Northern Gun, the Colorado Baronies, really all of North America. With everything we know about Lazlo from RMB, Edict of Planetary Distress, and the Xiticix War they are just going to be different.

For me, the refreshing thing would be to see the place that Erin Tarn describes like a Utopia get the "warts and all" portrayal along with warring perspectives that clash with her own philosophy and outlook.

The other aspect that I would throw in is how these groups react to the Minion War. I could see some groups looking to work with the CS, some groups wanting to play a defensive game and let the CS pay the price in blood and treasure for beating back the hordes, and some groups taking a similar approach to what they did with the Xiticix with targeted strikes without any coordination with outsiders.

Warshield73 wrote:
Mack wrote:A piece of my head-canon...

Since Lazlo has always had an emphasis on learning, the city's major institution would be a university. One that's combined with and almost dominates the government. So instead of Lazlo having a traditional intelligence service, the university would a field research branch responsible for exploration. Lazlo's military would fall under an Institute of War, where officers study the classics (Sun-Tzu, Clauswitz, Jomini, etc) as well as major battles from history, making a competent but small force. All the major guilds would effectively be departments within the School of Magic. Most of the city's leaders would be academics who rose to prominence through the university.

You get the idea. Start with a university structure, and then build Lazlo around it.

A long time player of mine ran a mercenary company as his solo game for years and wanted to work with Lazlo. This is exactly how we did it but remember "academic" is a relative term. One of my old bosses is at a major university teaching education so most would consider him an academic but he has 32 years as math and English teacher, school councilor, principal and assistant superintendent. He even drove a bus so way beyond academic knowledge. Likewise my old archaeology professor moved up to department chair and a much better university beating out older more published professors because he had extensive field experience. You see the same emphasis on practical experience in a lot of med schools too.

Looking at people like Plato and Tarn you have to imagine that in Lazlo field experience is going to be of paramount importance.

I agree. Here again, though, I'd introduce some warring perspectives. I wrote up a little ficlet a while back presenting the perspective of a"Lazlo Explorer's Guild" member who disdains Erin Tarn's methods and qualities as a scholar. I'd want to see tension and competition, harsh peer review, disdain for other departments and disciplines, arrogant egos, cynicism, presumptuous self-aggrandizement, intellectual property issues, fierce competition for funding/grants, and waste. I'd also want to see controversy with admissions, tuition, and discrimination.

Posted: **Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:22 am**

Hotrod,

You don't want warring opinions. You want Tarn to suffer repudiation. You want Lazlo to be grim and gritty. You want to sully the shine that we are told is around Lazlo. You want a deconstruction.

Why?

Seriously, is it a crime to have one utopian-esque location? A place freely exchanging ideas, with a government that works for the people while not working against others?

I don't understand this, "Everything must suck." Approach.

It turned me off in Picard.

Rant contains spoilers...

Spoiler:

Well... That's uh...

A deconstruction! Isn't that great!?

No! Deconstructions suck.

Let Lazlo be a shining beacon. Lord knows Rifts Earth needs one.

Posted: **Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:33 am**

My concern is I live here. If rifts canada was any indication of the geographical area, I hope they at least looked at a damn map and fix that mess somehow.

Thats aside from my concerns of the three authors writing it.

I enjoy mr oberle's material but he thus far has been very pro cs. Mr clements is a competent writer but talking to people that live there, his writing of NG left them wanting (in regards geographical items, climate, and attitudes of the people). And seeing as kevin wrote rifts canada, in addition to many examples across the rifts line, proper research of an area or subject seems to not be in his toolbox.

Posted: **Wed Aug 26, 2020 10:44 am**

HWalsh wrote:Hotrod,

You don't want warring opinions. You want Tarn to suffer repudiation. You want Lazlo to be grim and gritty. You want to sully the shine that we are told is around Lazlo. You want a deconstruction.

Why?

Seriously, is it a crime to have one utopian-esque location? A place freely exchanging ideas, with a government that works for the people while not working against others?

I don't understand this, "Everything must suck." Approach.

I don't want to see Erin Tarn suffer as a character; I want to see her perspective challenged. I don't want to sully the ideals of Lazlo; I want to see those ideals tested. If those ideals can't stand up to adversity and criticism, then they're not much good. This is the what a learning-focused university type of society should be. Open exchanges of ideas are inherently messy and difficult, and I want to see that reflected in the description of Lazlo's society and politics.

In any case, Lazlo isn't a utopian-esque location. Rifts: Aftermath already described it as a city embroiled in a massive refugee crisis. This grittier Lazlo is already canon, and in fact, the tone of Erin Tarn's own description of New Lazlo suggests she has a similar concern about that "college freshman of Rifts" city-state: that unchallenged idealism is a recipe for disaster.

I'd also like to see Techno-Wizardry explored in a more systemic way, and I'd like to see some techno-wizard variants/specialties.

(Side note: when you lead with something to the effect of "you don't want what you say you want; you want what I say you want," it feels like an accusation of dishonesty and strikes me as a strawman argument. Please don't do that)

HWalsh wrote:It turned me off in Picard.

Rant contains spoilers...

Spoiler:
Is Captain Picard enjoying retirement? No! He's jaded, leaving Starfleet, he's bitter and ailing.

Uh... Ok... But Starfleet is still a bastion of morality... Hah! Starfleet is corrupt, judgemental, and willing to concede to genocide.

Uhm... Right, well... I hear Seven of Nine is in this, and she was happily married to Chakotay last time we saw her... Well now she's consumed by anger over the murder of her adopted son and willing to commit murder!

...

...

How about Will Riker and Deanna Troi? They were married, had kids, were making a good life for... Hah! Their first kid died because of the stupidity of Starfleet and now Troi is afraid to get involved!

Well... That's uh...

A deconstruction! Isn't that great!?

No! Deconstructions suck.

Let Lazlo be a shining beacon. Lord knows Rifts Earth needs one.

From what I've read about Picard and the clips I've seen from it, I'm inclined to agree with your assessment of the show. However, I don't think it works as an analogy to what I'd like to see in the Lazlo book, and I think deconstructions can actually be a great thing when they're done the right way.

Picard was credibly challenged and deconstructed at many points throughout TNG in physical ways (The Borg), emotional ways (The Inner Light), will-breaking ways (Romulan interrogation episode) and moral/ethical ways (so, so many), and he was specifically called out to his face for his crimes by none other than Benjamin Sisko, another widely-respected Star Trek character. These challenges served to make his character more compelling and more interesting. He lost sometimes and made mistakes, and these experiences changed him. This is deconstruction done right: tearing down what doesn't work in favor of something better. The man playing cards in "All Good Things" was a far more interesting and compelling person than the one we met in "Encounter at Farpoint."

In many ways, Deep Space Nine offered a lot of deconstructions of Star Trek as a concept, but it offered a new perspective that was rich and compelling. It offered heroes who were more complicated and problems to which there were no utopian solutions. It never crapped on Star Trek just to crap on Star Trek.

That's the issue I see when deconstruction is done badly, when one tears down something and offers nothing better. It's pure nihilism, and I wholly reject it. "Picard" the show seems focused on tearing down this character without offering anything better; it seems like the show is telling us "this man you thought was great actually sucks; watch us humiliate him over and over" and we're just supposed to be like "yeah, I guess so, have some more of my money now, CBS."

Thus, while I disagree with your assessment of deconstructions in general, I agree that deconstruction for the sake of deconstruction sucks. Tearing stuff down for the sake of tearing down is about as compelling as watching a 2-year-old wreck something big and beautiful built by an older kid over and over again.

Posted: **Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:49 pm**

Ok. Stepping in to address a few things.

1) While the 'Dark and gritty' thing has been in upswing.. then down.. then kinda meanders around, it's still a popular trope. I for one, can take it or leave it depending on usage. Sometimes it fits, (Batman) Sometimes it doesn't (Superman), but it became a trope that is often overused. They do it to be 'edgy' and 'new' and well it's old now. Too many dark and gritty things just become standard. Then you gotta be DARKER and GRITTIER. Ohhhh Ahhhh to the point it's almost comical or farcical.

You gotta do it in moderation.

2) This happened, in part to Tolkeen. To start Tolkeen was much like Lazlo a gleaming nation of magic users. But it changed. Not only did Tolkeen change but it dove, face first, willingly into total evil. Now, lots of people don't read the books. They read forums and get snippits, but if you read the actual books Tolkeen was militerizing and pulling in ------------------evil---------------------- for YEARS before the CS Came over the hill.

Did the CS "pick the fight"? Yeah... but Tolkeen saw them coming and dove willingly into evil to fight back.

Sort of like a kid that hears there's a bully in high school so his last two years of middle school he goes out and buys a gun and practices with it and when the bully shows up for a conforntation at high school, the kid just opens up with the gun shooting everything. The Bully surely came to pick the fight, but instead of avoiding the fight the younger kid yoked up and went psycho to finish it.

Tolkeen had Evil Generals a PLENTY and it's not like they just put out a flyer in a paper and hired the evil ones that showed up. There's a rise to power and influence that comes along with being a general of a country. Tolkeen's were many, evil and not even shy about it.

They freed literal armies of demons to fight on their side, and on top of that, strengthened them with technowizardry. (These were often muted by the absolutely horrible art depicting them as ugly fish with robot legs, but if you read the text, that's what they were. Armies of demons sooooooooooo evil even OTHER demons were like "Naw yall are jerks. We're going to lock you up"

Which..... is a lot of words to say "We've already seen a magic nation that was 'good' go evil. Go dark and gritty. Go Christopher Nolan.

I don't need that with Lazlo.

I don't need what Palladium tends to do with almost every single local. "Oh it's ____ on the surface but look. Ohhhhhh noooooooooooo There's secret evil creeeepin' in! LOOK! A secret evil society! A secretly evil wizard. *Gasp* SO ORIGINAL! JUST LIKE ALL THE OTHERS!" They did it with Camalot, they did it with Lumeria, with the Atlanteneans.. etc etc etc over and over.

Stop it.

Now to address something more directly. Hotrod you say you're not just trying to gritty it all down but look at what you proposed.

"The Tarnist Faction
This is the crowd that's been in power for a long time, and it's all about high-minded idealism and trying to save the world. They've hiked taxes way up and are trying to provide all kinds of aid both within the city and abroad. Erin Tarn is a staunch supporter of this group, but their support is waning, and they may get voted out of power soon without allying themselves with one of the other two power blocks."

Your "Good guys", but are portrayed as losing power. Over taxing the country's people, to help others that aren't them. You've painted them as overly liberal bad guys that care more for helping others than their own kind and from the jump you're taking 'traditional Lazlo' that we've known for three decades, and saying "Well it's on the way out and about to lose to two new GRITTY FACTIONS!!"

"The Refugees
Thanks to Lazlo's efforts, its large population of refugees isn't starving and desperate anymore. However, they are very poor, mostly unemployed, crammed into slums and refugee camps, and reliant on meager relief supplies while the citizens of Lazlo enjoy luxuries in comfortable, shiny buildings just a mile or two away."

So.... the Burbs of Chi-town.

Wait... Burbs of Lazlo....

" Many among the refugees that resent and even hate the Lazlo leadership for doing nothing while the CS crushed Tolkeen."

See this is where you're going to lose some. Tolkeen was the only thing in the megaverse that some how deluded themselves into thinking they could win that war. ----Everyone---- told them they were going to get creamed. It's not like Lazlo told them to get bent and watched eating popcorn. Lazlo, Erin, like everyone else told Creed "If you do this, you're gonna die. They're GONNA Raze your city to the ground. Move. Flee. Relocate. Hide. Whatever. You're an ant standing infront of a steam roller flipping it off and grabbing your little ant crotch. You're the only one that seems to think you're going to make it out of this alive. Dude, get out of the way"

the CS Crushed Tolkeen because, frankly Tolkeen was stupid. The entire war should have lasted about 5 minutes, the flight time of the small tac nukes..... but that deux ex machina shield saved them from that. Plan 2 would have been to simply put a warhead in a APC (Undercover of course) and drive it into the middle of town and set it off, so maybe a week... but that wouldn't have sold like 3 years of back and forth books. (Nor been as entertaining.) But yeah. Tolkeen lost, because it was a spunky kindergardner thinking it was going to take on a 800lbs tiger and the Tiger ate it's face.

So trying to blame Tolkeens fall on Lazlo is a stretch. Especially when they're feeding you and giving you a place to live. Will some do so anyway? Yeah, but most of the spunky fighters died in the war. Refugees typically aren't militant. If they were, they'd be fighting and wouldn't be refugees.

" Others resent the citizens of Lazlo who won't hire them and look down on them. Most hate the Coalition with a passion and want to see Lazlo take a more aggressive stance against the Prosek regime. Their leaders are veterans of the Tolkeen war, and some locals who live and work closely with this group are coming around to their point of view."

Why? Why are these militant veterans even around? Why aren't they out there doing hit and run's against the CS? Why didn't they die in the war?
Not saying "Every hero dies in war" But you don't get a bunch of badasses that fled the war, to try and undermine other nations to continue a war they were so soundely thumped in.
Resentment? Sure. But "RISE UP CITIZENS OF LAZLO AND FIGHT ANOTHER LOSING WAR LIKE THE ONE WE JUST HAD!!! YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH" Is going to be met with a lot of "Sit down and shut up Bubba. They feed us. Tolkeen is gravel. There's no more war. Hundreds of thousands have died (Millions?) There's like 8 of you tolkeen war fighters that some how -escaped-. These people didn't fight our fight the first time, they're surely not going to now"

Why in the WORLD would some of the Lazlo locals come around to this point of view? They saw what happened to Tolkeen. The aftermath is right there. Thousands of indigent and homless refugees that their tax dollars, and hard work are going to feed. Literal armies of magic users and demons (and mercs) Fell to the CS. Why do you think every day Citizens of lazlo are going to want to go to war with an uneatable enemy, with a bunch of broken refugees?

How are the locals even living and working with the refugees, when you state the refugees live in camps and don't have work?

"The Interventionists
Finally, there's a growing group of reactionary Pre-Tolkeen residents that's all about putting Lazlo First and wants the refugees re-settled somewhere far away."

This part, I can see. There's always people that want their money spent on 'them'. That 'them being singular, or even group. "Lazlo's taxes should strengthen and better Lazlo, not pay for the frigging IDIOTS in Tolkeen that chose to go to war with the CS after everyone TOLD them they'd get hosed"

"For the most part, this group is isolationist and consists of a broad mix of humans and debees. They're willing to support the fight against existential threats like the Xiticix, Four Horsemen, Mechanoids, and the Minion War, but otherwise prefer to keep out of foreign affairs. This line of thinking has spread to some of the folks in power, as Plato himself has recently aligned himself with this faction, splitting the Council of Learning."

This is not bad on the face of it, but Plato is written to be the Utopian forever Angel Dragon. If anything you'd switch out Plato and Tarn's place in your write up. Plato is a dragon. he's not just going to switch suddenly. More over he's written to hav been this idealist for 100s or 1000s of years. He's not going to suddenly flip because there's a few refugees. He IS Lazlo and it's ideals. He'd keep with the Utopian ideal.

Tarn is... frankly an annoying Mary Sue, but if we're going to go down this road she's been around the world and the megaverse and has seen what's out there. If she comes home I could see her being like "Dude I've been out there. YUCK. Do not recommend! Lets pull in and turtle. Protect what we have from the horror show that is the world and the megaverse beyond."

So yeah... your stuff is pretty much just dark and gritty. Nolanesk.

I personally can do with out it. It's old and tired now. Add in the fact that this is a palladium product and they are all "PG" at the worst products and even your dark and gritty won't be THAT dark and gritty.

You'll be "TOLD" it's dark and gritty. Not shown.

"Oh there are slums where baaaaaaaaaaaaaaad things happen. Now on to 56 pages of new magic spells and doofy art!"
Or you'll get that stupid splatter punk art that they get for cheep and throw everywhere. "Oh look. This art would have fit in Fangoria in 1980. Ohhhhhhh Ahhhhhhhh loook how edgy and darrrrrrk"

Blech. No thank you.

Now I'm not proposing to write it my self.

I'm just saying I hope they avoid the over used trope. Overused in general (Seen the New batman trailer where Cedric Diggery beats someone to the ground and you hear crunchy crunchy bones shattering?) and over used in Rifts.

Don't give me Tolkeen 2.0.

Give me --Lazlo--

(( as an Aside, you guys are way off on Picard, but I'm guessin' you don't want a full out Trekky debate here. ))

Posted: **Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:58 pm**

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Spoiler:
Ok. Stepping in to address a few things.

1) While the 'Dark and gritty' thing has been in upswing.. then down.. then kinda meanders around, it's still a popular trope. I for one, can take it or leave it depending on usage. Sometimes it fits, (Batman) Sometimes it doesn't (Superman), but it became a trope that is often overused. They do it to be 'edgy' and 'new' and well it's old now. Too many dark and gritty things just become standard. Then you gotta be DARKER and GRITTIER. Ohhhh Ahhhh to the point it's almost comical or farcical.

You gotta do it in moderation.

2) This happened, in part to Tolkeen. To start Tolkeen was much like Lazlo a gleaming nation of magic users. But it changed. Not only did Tolkeen change but it dove, face first, willingly into total evil. Now, lots of people don't read the books. They read forums and get snippits, but if you read the actual books Tolkeen was militerizing and pulling in ------------------evil---------------------- for YEARS before the CS Came over the hill.

Did the CS "pick the fight"? Yeah... but Tolkeen saw them coming and dove willingly into evil to fight back.

Sort of like a kid that hears there's a bully in high school so his last two years of middle school he goes out and buys a gun and practices with it and when the bully shows up for a conforntation at high school, the kid just opens up with the gun shooting everything. The Bully surely came to pick the fight, but instead of avoiding the fight the younger kid yoked up and went psycho to finish it.

Tolkeen had Evil Generals a PLENTY and it's not like they just put out a flyer in a paper and hired the evil ones that showed up. There's a rise to power and influence that comes along with being a general of a country. Tolkeen's were many, evil and not even shy about it.

They freed literal armies of demons to fight on their side, and on top of that, strengthened them with technowizardry. (These were often muted by the absolutely horrible art depicting them as ugly fish with robot legs, but if you read the text, that's what they were. Armies of demons sooooooooooo evil even OTHER demons were like "Naw yall are jerks. We're going to lock you up"

Which..... is a lot of words to say "We've already seen a magic nation that was 'good' go evil. Go dark and gritty. Go Christopher Nolan.

I don't need that with Lazlo.

I don't need what Palladium tends to do with almost every single local. "Oh it's ____ on the surface but look. Ohhhhhh noooooooooooo There's secret evil creeeepin' in! LOOK! A secret evil society! A secretly evil wizard. *Gasp* SO ORIGINAL! JUST LIKE ALL THE OTHERS!" They did it with Camalot, they did it with Lumeria, with the Atlanteneans.. etc etc etc over and over.

Stop it.

Now to address something more directly. Hotrod you say you're not just trying to gritty it all down but look at what you proposed.

"The Tarnist Faction
This is the crowd that's been in power for a long time, and it's all about high-minded idealism and trying to save the world. They've hiked taxes way up and are trying to provide all kinds of aid both within the city and abroad. Erin Tarn is a staunch supporter of this group, but their support is waning, and they may get voted out of power soon without allying themselves with one of the other two power blocks."

Your "Good guys", but are portrayed as losing power. Over taxing the country's people, to help others that aren't them. You've painted them as overly liberal bad guys that care more for helping others than their own kind and from the jump you're taking 'traditional Lazlo' that we've known for three decades, and saying "Well it's on the way out and about to lose to two new GRITTY FACTIONS!!"

"The Refugees
Thanks to Lazlo's efforts, its large population of refugees isn't starving and desperate anymore. However, they are very poor, mostly unemployed, crammed into slums and refugee camps, and reliant on meager relief supplies while the citizens of Lazlo enjoy luxuries in comfortable, shiny buildings just a mile or two away."

So.... the Burbs of Chi-town.

Wait... Burbs of Lazlo....

" Many among the refugees that resent and even hate the Lazlo leadership for doing nothing while the CS crushed Tolkeen."

See this is where you're going to lose some. Tolkeen was the only thing in the megaverse that some how deluded themselves into thinking they could win that war. ----Everyone---- told them they were going to get creamed. It's not like Lazlo told them to get bent and watched eating popcorn. Lazlo, Erin, like everyone else told Creed "If you do this, you're gonna die. They're GONNA Raze your city to the ground. Move. Flee. Relocate. Hide. Whatever. You're an ant standing infront of a steam roller flipping it off and grabbing your little ant crotch. You're the only one that seems to think you're going to make it out of this alive. Dude, get out of the way"

the CS Crushed Tolkeen because, frankly Tolkeen was stupid. The entire war should have lasted about 5 minutes, the flight time of the small tac nukes..... but that deux ex machina shield saved them from that. Plan 2 would have been to simply put a warhead in a APC (Undercover of course) and drive it into the middle of town and set it off, so maybe a week... but that wouldn't have sold like 3 years of back and forth books. (Nor been as entertaining.) But yeah. Tolkeen lost, because it was a spunky kindergardner thinking it was going to take on a 800lbs tiger and the Tiger ate it's face.

So trying to blame Tolkeens fall on Lazlo is a stretch. Especially when they're feeding you and giving you a place to live. Will some do so anyway? Yeah, but most of the spunky fighters died in the war. Refugees typically aren't militant. If they were, they'd be fighting and wouldn't be refugees.

" Others resent the citizens of Lazlo who won't hire them and look down on them. Most hate the Coalition with a passion and want to see Lazlo take a more aggressive stance against the Prosek regime. Their leaders are veterans of the Tolkeen war, and some locals who live and work closely with this group are coming around to their point of view."

Why? Why are these militant veterans even around? Why aren't they out there doing hit and run's against the CS? Why didn't they die in the war?
Not saying "Every hero dies in war" But you don't get a bunch of badasses that fled the war, to try and undermine other nations to continue a war they were so soundely thumped in.
Resentment? Sure. But "RISE UP CITIZENS OF LAZLO AND FIGHT ANOTHER LOSING WAR LIKE THE ONE WE JUST HAD!!! YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH" Is going to be met with a lot of "Sit down and shut up Bubba. They feed us. Tolkeen is gravel. There's no more war. Hundreds of thousands have died (Millions?) There's like 8 of you tolkeen war fighters that some how -escaped-. These people didn't fight our fight the first time, they're surely not going to now"

Why in the WORLD would some of the Lazlo locals come around to this point of view? They saw what happened to Tolkeen. The aftermath is right there. Thousands of indigent and homless refugees that their tax dollars, and hard work are going to feed. Literal armies of magic users and demons (and mercs) Fell to the CS. Why do you think every day Citizens of lazlo are going to want to go to war with an uneatable enemy, with a bunch of broken refugees?

How are the locals even living and working with the refugees, when you state the refugees live in camps and don't have work?

"The Interventionists
Finally, there's a growing group of reactionary Pre-Tolkeen residents that's all about putting Lazlo First and wants the refugees re-settled somewhere far away."

This part, I can see. There's always people that want their money spent on 'them'. That 'them being singular, or even group. "Lazlo's taxes should strengthen and better Lazlo, not pay for the frigging IDIOTS in Tolkeen that chose to go to war with the CS after everyone TOLD them they'd get hosed"

"For the most part, this group is isolationist and consists of a broad mix of humans and debees. They're willing to support the fight against existential threats like the Xiticix, Four Horsemen, Mechanoids, and the Minion War, but otherwise prefer to keep out of foreign affairs. This line of thinking has spread to some of the folks in power, as Plato himself has recently aligned himself with this faction, splitting the Council of Learning."

This is not bad on the face of it, but Plato is written to be the Utopian forever Angel Dragon. If anything you'd switch out Plato and Tarn's place in your write up. Plato is a dragon. he's not just going to switch suddenly. More over he's written to hav been this idealist for 100s or 1000s of years. He's not going to suddenly flip because there's a few refugees. He IS Lazlo and it's ideals. He'd keep with the Utopian ideal.

Tarn is... frankly an annoying Mary Sue, but if we're going to go down this road she's been around the world and the megaverse and has seen what's out there. If she comes home I could see her being like "Dude I've been out there. YUCK. Do not recommend! Lets pull in and turtle. Protect what we have from the horror show that is the world and the megaverse beyond."

So yeah... your stuff is pretty much just dark and gritty. Nolanesk.

I personally can do with out it. It's old and tired now. Add in the fact that this is a palladium product and they are all "PG" at the worst products and even your dark and gritty won't be THAT dark and gritty.

You'll be "TOLD" it's dark and gritty. Not shown.

"Oh there are slums where baaaaaaaaaaaaaaad things happen. Now on to 56 pages of new magic spells and doofy art!"
Or you'll get that stupid splatter punk art that they get for cheep and throw everywhere. "Oh look. This art would have fit in Fangoria in 1980. Ohhhhhhh Ahhhhhhhh loook how edgy and darrrrrrk"

Blech. No thank you.

Now I'm not proposing to write it my self.

I'm just saying I hope they avoid the over used trope. Overused in general (Seen the New batman trailer where Cedric Diggery beats someone to the ground and you hear crunchy crunchy bones shattering?) and over used in Rifts.

Don't give me Tolkeen 2.0.

Give me --Lazlo--

(( as an Aside, you guys are way off on Picard, but I'm guessin' you don't want a full out Trekky debate here. ))

This....AAAAAAALLLLLL of this.

Posted: **Wed Aug 26, 2020 1:49 pm**

I really like Pepsi Jedi's passionate criticism of my "militant refugee" faction. That's exactly the kind of thing I'd like to see in a new Lazlo book: criticism of other positions and battling perspectives. I have a few thoughts in response to his excellent critique:

First, I'm not interested in seeing Lazlo become evil or corrupted. I agree this was already done with Tolkeen and I have no desire to see it turn into Tolkeen 2.0. Rather, I'm interested in seeing it as a society at a decision point. Pepsi Jedi identified some aspects of world books and settings that can seem formulaic (here's what's going on, and here's the sneaky evil under the surface) and sees this as a problem. That's a totally legitimate view. My concern is rather different.

I want to give the players power.

I don't mean more toys, skills, magic, psionics, or MDC powers. I mean give them the power to reshape the setting. Whether by design or by accident, PFRPG's world books do a great job of this, setting the stage for great events to happen, and they rarely decide the events or outcomes of those great events. These are settings on the cusp of great events with uncertain outcomes. It's easy to see how player choices can be the butterfly wing-flap that shapes events moving forward into storms or calm.

I don't get that sense in most Rifts books. When I read the description of Chi-Town, I get the feeling that it's too big for any player characters to make any difference. The Tolkeen war is described one way, and player choices have no influence on the final outcome. The monolithic powers stay monolithic, and the player characters are just leaves on the wind caught up in a tornado; maybe they come through ok, maybe they don't, but they're just kind of along for the ride. The big events are going to happen as the books lay them out, and the outcomes have already been decided. This worldbuilding approach makes for interesting canon, but I'd like to see a part of the world where the outcome is uncertain, where Palladium sets the stage and gives the introduction, but doesn't include any scripted event, predetermined outcome, or "right" answer/perspective.

Lazlo's cultural and political future seems like a good space to give players that power, to let them tip the balance in favor of Lazlo becoming more welcoming or more exclusive, more isolationist or more interventionist, more likely to work with the CS in the Minion War or more likely to go it alone.

Posted: **Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:44 pm**

What you want is a campaign not a world book. Hard pass on Lazlo being "neutral". We have too much "neutral" in the setting along with more than enough "bad" and nowhere near enough "good". The setting NEEDS a city that is good and the place others wish to emulate as such. Not a city a group of players can turn into the tolkeen 2.0 or otherwise.

Posted: **Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:56 pm**

Hotrod wrote:I really like Pepsi Jedi's passionate criticism of my "militant refugee" faction. That's exactly the kind of thing I'd like to see in a new Lazlo book: criticism of other positions and battling perspectives. I have a few thoughts in response to his excellent critique:

First, I'm not interested in seeing Lazlo become evil or corrupted. I agree this was already done with Tolkeen and I have no desire to see it turn into Tolkeen 2.0. Rather, I'm interested in seeing it as a society at a decision point. Pepsi Jedi identified some aspects of world books and settings that can seem formulaic (here's what's going on, and here's the sneaky evil under the surface) and sees this as a problem. That's a totally legitimate view. My concern is rather different.

I want to give the players power.

I don't mean more toys, skills, magic, psionics, or MDC powers. I mean give them the power to reshape the setting. Whether by design or by accident, PFRPG's world books do a great job of this, setting the stage for great events to happen, and they rarely decide the events or outcomes of those great events. These are settings on the cusp of great events with uncertain outcomes. It's easy to see how player choices can be the butterfly wing-flap that shapes events moving forward into storms or calm.

I don't get that sense in most Rifts books. When I read the description of Chi-Town, I get the feeling that it's too big for any player characters to make any difference. The Tolkeen war is described one way, and player choices have no influence on the final outcome. The monolithic powers stay monolithic, and the player characters are just leaves on the wind caught up in a tornado; maybe they come through ok, maybe they don't, but they're just kind of along for the ride. The big events are going to happen as the books lay them out, and the outcomes have already been decided. This worldbuilding approach makes for interesting canon, but I'd like to see a part of the world where the outcome is uncertain, where Palladium sets the stage and gives the introduction, but doesn't include any scripted event, predetermined outcome, or "right" answer/perspective.

Lazlo's cultural and political future seems like a good space to give players that power, to let them tip the balance in favor of Lazlo becoming more welcoming or more exclusive, more isolationist or more interventionist, more likely to work with the CS in the Minion War or more likely to go it alone.

Thing is, what you're talking about prevents further expansions.

I get what you're saying. You want to feel like your char's actions have more impact. Thing is, that's the job of the GM. To take what we're -given- and then put your groups' mark on it'.

To take the canon source and then, through rp. ADD to it. Be it good addition or bad additions.

If you leave things open ended after a big wind up, you end up with... Rifts Africa, the 'Gathering of heroes' and the 4 horsemen. Which sat out there for 10 years open ended. Did they get stopped? Well we assume so as we're still writing rule books but we just won't mention it for a decade... because we left it open ended.

Eventually little hints came in that 'A group of unnamed heroes (Your player group) and an army of KNown heroes managed to stop the 4 horsemen" But that was a decade down the line.

Edit: Thus you couldn't do anything 'else' with Africa, cannon speaking with out..... setting an ending, to a book that purposefully was left open ended. And indeed, this is a main complaint of Africa. Sooooo much space. So little (And stereotypical) Information. half of the 'world book' was about the 4 horsemen. What's in africa could barely cover one COUNTRY in the land mass. Much less the entire thing.

We've waited THIRTY FRIGGING YEARS For Lazlo. I do not want something to be open ended on it. "Oh here's half of wha tyou need. now YOU DECIDE!"

LOL No thank you! Give me a gleaming city of silver and ivory. Give me magic a plenty. A university so grand it pulls in students from the megaverse. Give me knights of pure heart. Is it going to stand out in Rifts? YES! It's supposed to.

I understand the want and interest to see some 'cracks in the facade'. Nothing is perfect and pure perfection is boring. So yes, Lazlo will need some instances of that imperfection.

But instead of the "Secret cult of evil do'ers, plotting against the nation of magic and psionics that should have known about them in about 8 seconds" Show us other things.

Instead of a dark malignant rot at the core of a old gleaming ideal past it's prime...

Show us imperfection that brings beauty to the whole. The Japanese call it Wabi-sabi. It is a world view centered on the acceptance of transience and imperfection. The aesthetic is sometimes described as one of beauty that is "imperfect, impermanent, and incomplete".

Give me THAT Lazlo.

I can add in the world shaking drama all on my own.

Posted: **Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:42 pm**

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Show us imperfection that brings beauty to the whole. The Japanese call it Wabi-sabi. It is a world view centered on the acceptance of transience and imperfection. The aesthetic is sometimes described as one of beauty that is "imperfect, impermanent, and incomplete".

Give me THAT Lazlo.

I can add in the world shaking drama all on my own.

Totally with you on the concept of "imperfection that brings beauty to the whole." I have no problem with an idealistic Lazlo. What I don't want is a utopian Lazlo, where there is a simple right answer and a single way that everyone who's good looks at things, anyone who disagrees is evil, and all those other countries on Rifts Earth are just too dumb, ignorant, or evil to embrace the virtues of "The Lazlo Way."

Kevin once said to me, "there are no utopias in Rifts." I don't want Lazlo to be an exception. I don't want it to be a grim, dark hellhole. I want it to be a beautiful, hot mess of a city with a sense of hope and high ideals despite its warts, internal debates, and political wrangling. I want it to be a place where Plato can passionately debate against Erin Tarn's proposal to raise taxes to build better refugee camps, and then walk across the street with her and have a nice dinner as they discuss her plans for her upcoming exploration of India which Plato is happily paying for out of his private funds. I want a Lazlo where people protest against the government and call for a constitutional amendment to strip power from the Council of Learning, and then go have a block party and invite the same cops who were manning the barricades.

As for your objection based on the prospect of not doing anything more with Lazlo, I agree with your issue with the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, but I'm actually OK with doing something similar with Lazlo. It makes a lot more sense to leave things open with a small, peaceful city-state than the continent of Africa.

Posted: **Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:00 pm**

new Lazlo books will hopefully introduce a "Xiticix Convervation Society" who decry the government's genocidal war measures against those poor animals and vote to keep them from going extinct in zoos at bare minimum

Posted: **Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:04 pm**

2 million + claiming a border of 150 miles is not small lol

Posted: **Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:52 pm**

Hotrod wrote:Kevin once said to me, "there are no utopias in Rifts." I don't want Lazlo to be an exception. I don't want it to be a grim, dark hellhole. I want it to be a beautiful, hot mess of a city with a sense of hope and high ideals despite its warts, internal debates, and political wrangling. I want it to be a place where Plato can passionately debate against Erin Tarn's proposal to raise taxes to build better refugee camps, and then walk across the street with her and have a nice dinner as they discuss her plans for her upcoming exploration of India which Plato is happily paying for out of his private funds. I want a Lazlo where people protest against the government and call for a constitutional amendment to strip power from the Council of Learning, and then go have a block party and invite the same cops who were manning the barricades.

i mean, that sounds like a utopia to me.......

Posted: **Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:35 pm**

Orin J. wrote:
Hotrod wrote:Kevin once said to me, "there are no utopias in Rifts." I don't want Lazlo to be an exception. I don't want it to be a grim, dark hellhole. I want it to be a beautiful, hot mess of a city with a sense of hope and high ideals despite its warts, internal debates, and political wrangling. I want it to be a place where Plato can passionately debate against Erin Tarn's proposal to raise taxes to build better refugee camps, and then walk across the street with her and have a nice dinner as they discuss her plans for her upcoming exploration of India which Plato is happily paying for out of his private funds. I want a Lazlo where people protest against the government and call for a constitutional amendment to strip power from the Council of Learning, and then go have a block party and invite the same cops who were manning the barricades.

i mean, that sounds like a utopia to me.......

Only because we're living in 2020.

Posted: **Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:36 pm**

jaymz wrote:2 million + claiming a border of 150 miles is not small lol

Compared to Africa, it's a rounding error.

Posted: **Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:32 am**

Good thing we aren't discussing Africa isn't it? Not to mention Africa isn't a "kingdom" or "city-state" now is it?

Compared to the rest of North America in Rifts its the 2nd or 3rd largest city-state/nation behind only the Coalition Stares (and maybe Free Quebec) in population.

I checked. Its larger than everyone else including the former Tolkeen.

Posted: **Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:43 pm**

jaymz wrote:Good thing we aren't discussing Africa isn't it? Not to mention Africa isn't a "kingdom" or "city-state" now is it?

We're discussing it as part of the context. Pepsi Jedi's issue with giving players the power to influence the direction of Lazlo is that it would curtail further development, just as the Four Horsemen campaign did with Africa. I'm saying that Lazlo is much smaller than Africa, and that Lazlo has had little influence on the rest of the setting. Unless Kevin wants Lazlo to start launching major campaigns and exert a lot of influence beyond its borders, I don't see much opportunity loss there.

jaymz wrote:Compared to the rest of North America in Rifts its the 2nd or 3rd largest city-state/nation behind only the Coalition Stares (and maybe Free Quebec) in population.

I checked. Its larger than everyone else including the former Tolkeen.

Kudos on checking the source material, that's more than I thought it would be.

Do you regard Lazo to be a significant player in North America? How important do you see them in terms of influencing the setting?

Posted: **Thu Aug 27, 2020 2:34 pm**

I'm not discussing pepsi's assertion.

I'm addressing you're calling lazlo a small city state and as such wanting it to be more gritty/pliable/open ended.

The city of lazlo has as many people as the actual city of chitown.

I've proven my point that's its not small.

If chitown cannot be influenced by a player group then frankly neither should lalzo.

The game already has plenty of places players can influence like new lazlo, arzno, kingsdale, merctown...all small to moderate sized places.

Leave lazlo as the one f-ing beacon of hope in a game that literally has no others ffs.

Posted: **Thu Aug 27, 2020 5:29 pm**

First a request: I've been poking through a lot of books putting together a couple of lists, and am a mite tuckered. What books have info on Lazlo? I know RMB/RUE/SoT:Aftermath/WB16,20,22&23 have amounts ranging from brief mention to a couple of pages, and there are articles that likely don't have much influence on any end result in Rifters 49 and 58. Any help would be appreciated.

I'm largely of a mind that if material on Lazlo is intended to become a 2-4 book series then it needs to engage with the setting's metaplot in several ways. The last time that was tried was with the Siege on Tolkeen, which dealt with issues like an author being forced to work on something for which there were unreasonable expectations, an organization more jumbled than on par for Palladium, introducing system crunch in both small and large scales as a testing ground for future editions of other books, and finally formally introducing an area to only destroy it.

With the exception of generally unexplored parts of the Three Galaxies, Lazlo presents a unique opportunity in Palladium Books to show how a utopian society that conscientiously embraces both magic and high technolgy would address issues in fundamentally novel ways. Things like material shortages, logistical/psychological issues resulting from an infux of asylum seekers, and machiavellian plotting agents of systemic malignancy are things that simply don't rise to a level of crisis found in the encroachment of the Devouring Swarm, a multidimensional war against immortal evil with the capacity for countless unending beachheads, slaving expeditions in the name of Lovecraftian capitialism, and the plurality if not majority of the continent's population held in ideological bondage to an authoritanian demagogue and his machine hordes. The situation is sufficiently tenuous that kvetching over internal power struggles and the like falls flat on multiple fronts, not least of which it being, for the setting, a dead horse.

While I'm in no way opposed to issues resulting from audacious utopianism, I think it can arise organically from extant setting constraints, thereby suggesting what sort of system crunch we might see. As an example, colonization seems like not only an easy way to help provide assistance to refugees from Tolkeen, it would serve as a useful contingency in case ANY ONE OF THE WORLD-ENDING POSSIBILITIES OCCURS. I'll put some hat pull ideas for such in a spoiler, since they delve away from Lazlo itself.

Spoiler:

While I wouldn't want a book on Lazlo to consider their Council's approach to be some monolithic white hat agenda lacking in nuance, I think that there are enough issues for them to weigh on that anything more than minor mention of profit-oriented subversive elements is kinda hack.

As for methods by which players can feel that they're more involved in the setting, or that their characters' actions can be impactful, I say go with some player surveys. People might want to see a whole bunch of TW items in a Lazlo book, or a high quality map, or a specific picture by Charles Walton. Particularly if there are meant to be multiple books then getting feedback before and after a RAW edition seems invaluable. In addition to specific questions, I could see value in open-ended ones that readers might like to see discussed.

Just spitballing: What would the magico-futurist approach be to actually intractable problems? What might they perceive as crossing that threshold? How would they work to lessen the worst effects of "lesser" problems? How do they, for example, work against the CS? It's assuredly a more complicated approach then that required for a Hell pit. What does agitprop even look like that's meant to influence the illiterate yet not be dismissed out of hand by others? How can Lazlo leverage the blind eye generally paid them by Northern Gun/Manistique Imperium into not only a mutually beneficial arrangement, but one that sways public opinion about the CS? Can criminal groups like the Invisible Hand and Black Market be involved with altruistic endeavors without unacceptable risk? That last one seems like a good source for people itching for there to be a seedy underbelly, which means it's an even better place to subvert that.

What are some questions any of you might like to see discussed about Lazlo?

Posted: **Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:27 pm**

jaymz wrote:
I enjoy mr oberle's material but he thus far has been very pro cs.

@Jaymz: What has he written that you are referring to?

Posted: **Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:36 pm**

Iirc he wrote a number of the dedicated cs articles in the rifter. All well written and in fact I've incorporated them in "my" rifts cs.

I am very much in the wait and see approach but the fact kevin will get final brush of it all makes me very wary.

Posted: **Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:36 pm**

I want to see a dark hidden faction within Lazlo. Maybe even two. If folks want to go with the college vibe, make it secret society style: Skull and Bones (A pro CS organization), Order of the Silver Eagle (A NEMA/Republican Society), Society of Thoth (A magical society bent on bringing Thoth).

Something that is kooky, yet cool to toss in. Heck before Sourcebook 1 Revised, I would have had the Republican's be a secret society... now... nah - I like the Order of the Silver Eagle better

Posted: **Thu Aug 27, 2020 11:10 pm**

Tiree wrote:I want to see a dark hidden faction within Lazlo. Maybe even two. If folks want to go with the college vibe, make it secret society style: Skull and Bones (A pro CS organization), Order of the Silver Eagle (A NEMA/Republican Society), Society of Thoth (A magical society bent on bringing Thoth).

Something that is kooky, yet cool to toss in. Heck before Sourcebook 1 Revised, I would have had the Republican's be a secret society... now... nah - I like the Order of the Silver Eagle better

i'd like to get the actual lazlo established before we get into that sort of thing, palladium has an awful tendency to half-bake things in their rush to get to the "dark secrets" part.

Posted: **Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:45 am**

I find myself agreeing with everyone in this thread, to a certain extent.

I like Lazlo as a beacon of hope and high-minded idealism, and I definitely don’t want it to become dark and gritty. That would be boring. But Utopias are just as boring. I like the notion of Lazlo’s idealism being tested, and the Free State becoming stronger for it. I want something between a hellhole and a utopia, but leaning much closer toward idealism. I don’t see Tolkeenite refugees acting out against Lazlo, as the angriest survivors will likely head to the Magic Zone.

While I don’t think Lazlo needs evil or corrupt elements causing problems from within, I could definitely see philosophical and political problems arising from external sources. For instance, some former Scard retributionists maybe end up in Lazlo, mixed in with the Tolkeenite refugees, and take advantage of all their anger and pain in order build support for continued hostility against the CS (as insane as that is). Lazlo, in turn, has to combat the retributionist influence among the refugees with its own idealism and hope. Not in a cheesy, naive way, but in a sensible, affirming way.

I also agree that it would be great to see how Lazlo, a city of magic and technology, deals with a refugee crisis in novel ways.

Posted: **Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:20 am**

Considering how much information Lazlo distributes... I think it's safe to say we'll get an informat/media OCC which is heavy into espionage skills. We might even get a Lazlo variant of the Rogue Scholar/Scientist.

That being said, I just want to know what was Lazlo was doing during all of the major fights they helped distribute information about (Mechanoids, Xiticix, Demons).

Posted: **Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:38 am**

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Hotrod wrote:I really like Pepsi Jedi's passionate criticism of my "militant refugee" faction. That's exactly the kind of thing I'd like to see in a new Lazlo book: criticism of other positions and battling perspectives. I have a few thoughts in response to his excellent critique:

First, I'm not interested in seeing Lazlo become evil or corrupted. I agree this was already done with Tolkeen and I have no desire to see it turn into Tolkeen 2.0. Rather, I'm interested in seeing it as a society at a decision point. Pepsi Jedi identified some aspects of world books and settings that can seem formulaic (here's what's going on, and here's the sneaky evil under the surface) and sees this as a problem. That's a totally legitimate view. My concern is rather different.

I want to give the players power.

I don't mean more toys, skills, magic, psionics, or MDC powers. I mean give them the power to reshape the setting. Whether by design or by accident, PFRPG's world books do a great job of this, setting the stage for great events to happen, and they rarely decide the events or outcomes of those great events. These are settings on the cusp of great events with uncertain outcomes. It's easy to see how player choices can be the butterfly wing-flap that shapes events moving forward into storms or calm.

I don't get that sense in most Rifts books. When I read the description of Chi-Town, I get the feeling that it's too big for any player characters to make any difference. The Tolkeen war is described one way, and player choices have no influence on the final outcome. The monolithic powers stay monolithic, and the player characters are just leaves on the wind caught up in a tornado; maybe they come through ok, maybe they don't, but they're just kind of along for the ride. The big events are going to happen as the books lay them out, and the outcomes have already been decided. This worldbuilding approach makes for interesting canon, but I'd like to see a part of the world where the outcome is uncertain, where Palladium sets the stage and gives the introduction, but doesn't include any scripted event, predetermined outcome, or "right" answer/perspective.

Lazlo's cultural and political future seems like a good space to give players that power, to let them tip the balance in favor of Lazlo becoming more welcoming or more exclusive, more isolationist or more interventionist, more likely to work with the CS in the Minion War or more likely to go it alone.

Thing is, what you're talking about prevents further expansions.

I get what you're saying. You want to feel like your char's actions have more impact. Thing is, that's the job of the GM. To take what we're -given- and then put your groups' mark on it'.

To take the canon source and then, through rp. ADD to it. Be it good addition or bad additions.

If you leave things open ended after a big wind up, you end up with... Rifts Africa, the 'Gathering of heroes' and the 4 horsemen. Which sat out there for 10 years open ended. Did they get stopped? Well we assume so as we're still writing rule books but we just won't mention it for a decade... because we left it open ended.

Eventually little hints came in that 'A group of unnamed heroes (Your player group) and an army of KNown heroes managed to stop the 4 horsemen" But that was a decade down the line.

Edit: Thus you couldn't do anything 'else' with Africa, cannon speaking with out..... setting an ending, to a book that purposefully was left open ended. And indeed, this is a main complaint of Africa. Sooooo much space. So little (And stereotypical) Information. half of the 'world book' was about the 4 horsemen. What's in africa could barely cover one COUNTRY in the land mass. Much less the entire thing.

We've waited THIRTY FRIGGING YEARS For Lazlo. I do not want something to be open ended on it. "Oh here's half of wha tyou need. now YOU DECIDE!"

LOL No thank you! Give me a gleaming city of silver and ivory. Give me magic a plenty. A university so grand it pulls in students from the megaverse. Give me knights of pure heart. Is it going to stand out in Rifts? YES! It's supposed to.

I understand the want and interest to see some 'cracks in the facade'. Nothing is perfect and pure perfection is boring. So yes, Lazlo will need some instances of that imperfection.

But instead of the "Secret cult of evil do'ers, plotting against the nation of magic and psionics that should have known about them in about 8 seconds" Show us other things.

Instead of a dark malignant rot at the core of a old gleaming ideal past it's prime...

Show us imperfection that brings beauty to the whole. The Japanese call it Wabi-sabi. It is a world view centered on the acceptance of transience and imperfection. The aesthetic is sometimes described as one of beauty that is "imperfect, impermanent, and incomplete".

Give me THAT Lazlo.

I can add in the world shaking drama all on my own.

I've got to agree with P.J. here.

*doing my best Captain Barbosa voice
The world books are more like guidelines than actual rules.

This is the way I've always run my campaigns/worlds, I read the books and only use the parts I want. If the Lazlo book decides to include something I like, say for instance the council leaders are really bots run by Archie 3, or some other nonsense, it doesn't exist in my game. If I want to allow my players to change the scope of things then they can do that through play, if they decide to slowly corrupt Lazlo then go for it.

Just because it's written down in a book doesn't mean we have to follow it word for word, the game is supposed to be fun and about using your imagination.

Posted: **Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:31 am**

I will keep an open mind yet no Dark Factions in Lazlo please for the love of god. The rotten apple Syndrome has been done to death with some sourcebooks. When done it's always the "super secret evil organization, that no notices, with unlimited resources, 1000% loyalty from their followers, with an ultrapowerful NPC as it's head". If they can do something other than that I might be interested. To be honest we have enough existing good factions that have a secret rot at their core. We don't need another and certainly not in the case of Lazlo.

Posted: **Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:39 am**

Sureshot wrote:I will keep an open mind yet no Dark Factions in Lazlo please for the love of god. The rotten apple Syndrome has been done to death with some sourcebooks. When done it's always the "super secret evil organization, that no notices, with unlimited resources, 1000% loyalty from their followers, with an ultrapowerful NPC as it's head". If they can do something other than that I might be interested. To be honest we have enough existing good factions that have a secret rot at their core. We don't need another and certainly not in the case of Lazlo.

I'd much rather have several "good guy" factions who passionately disagree on policy. That's something we haven't really seen yet.

Posted: **Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:41 pm**

Hotrod wrote:I'd much rather have several "good guy" factions who passionately disagree on policy. That's something we haven't really seen yet.

As would I except PB or at least the writers seems overly fond of the ultra powerful organization with complete minion loyalty and unlimited resources yet no one notices trope imo. So we will see.

Posted: **Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:43 pm**

I'm kinda hoping that a few of the True Atlantean clans are represented in the book. Nothing major, just an outpost or two that can serve as a way station for those traveling to/from Earth. In turn, that could lead to a set of adventures to map the ley lines / nexus points of Earth and plan sites for pyramids.

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:16 am**

Hotrod wrote:
Sureshot wrote:I will keep an open mind yet no Dark Factions in Lazlo please for the love of god. The rotten apple Syndrome has been done to death with some sourcebooks. When done it's always the "super secret evil organization, that no notices, with unlimited resources, 1000% loyalty from their followers, with an ultrapowerful NPC as it's head". If they can do something other than that I might be interested. To be honest we have enough existing good factions that have a secret rot at their core. We don't need another and certainly not in the case of Lazlo.

I'd much rather have several "good guy" factions who passionately disagree on policy. That's something we haven't really seen yet.

That would be because their policies are good guy policies and the only people that are likely to disagree are bad guys or anarchists which are, typically by definitiion, NOT good guys.

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:31 am**

Jaymz raises an interesting topic: Palladium's system of "objective good/evil" alignments seems to correspond to agreement and disagreement with characters and policies.

In this paradigm, is it possible to have good people disagree on issues of policy, even to the point where they might fight each other? I'm inclined to say yes, but I think there's more canon precedent for folks who say no.

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:48 am**

Hotrod wrote:Jaymz raises an interesting topic: Palladium's system of "objective good/evil" alignments seems to correspond to agreement and disagreement with characters and policies.

In this paradigm, is it possible to have good people disagree on issues of policy, even to the point where they might fight each other? I'm inclined to say yes, but I think there's more canon precedent for folks who say no.

i mean in the wonderful world of politics there's a lot of ways to "fight" without fighting.......maybe lazlo is covered in graffitti and petty vandalism right now while the leadership is taking shots at each other over the airwaves?

Posted: **Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:07 am**

Remember in Demolition man, when the little bot popped up and spray painted the wall in about 10 seconds.

Then about 10 seconds after that the wall effected it's own counterdefense and blew the paint off?

That's the sort of thing I'd imagine in lazlo, (Pertaining to the above post)

Except instead of Tech..

Magic.

Posted: **Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:39 pm**

As with any palladium product...I'll believe it when it comes out. I will not kickstarter. I will not pre-order.
And I will not waste money on Raw previews.

I've waited 21 years for this book ever since seeing it skipped over intentionally in Canada back in 1999. My anticipation for this book can legally drink now.

I can wait to see IF it comes out and not lose an ounce of sleep.

Posted: **Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:05 am**

What I think would be interesting would be to have a number of "factions" that have at least 2-3 goals each and that the disagreements among the leadership of the various groups are typically more emphasis and or they agree on certain things but disagree on others.

like division of resources, like 1 group wants to spend more resources on food production, another wants to spend more on housing, a third wants to focus on building up production, another wants to build up resource collection, another infrastructure etc. they all have good or decent arguments in favor of their position, but there aren't enough resources to go around.
for instance you have unhappy people more food, and shelter will help solve that issue
but more /better infrastructure will make the resources go farther.
improving /expanding resource gathering and production will end up giving you more resources to spend overall and in a lot of ways is the best option (in the long run) but can you last long enough for it to really pay off?

Posted: **Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:40 am**

With the amount of magic at the city state's disposal food, shelter, and resources in general should be the least of their concerns even with the large influx of tolkeen refugees.

Posted: **Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:37 am**

Greetings everyone. It's been a while but since I care about this particular topic enough, I've decided to return to the forums. I'll make a more substantive contribution to the discussion later today. Until then.

Posted: **Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:46 am**

guardiandashi wrote:What I think would be interesting would be to have a number of "factions" that have at least 2-3 goals each and that the disagreements among the leadership of the various groups are typically more emphasis and or they agree on certain things but disagree on others.

I tried to do that for the CS; work out some of their internal political factions.

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